Aztec/Mesoamerican Thread

They ruled hegemonically, meaning that the regions under their control were relatively autonomous. This kept the cost of administration low and maximized the efficiency of taxation, because the locals felt more comfortable living under the control of their own lord. All tribute was centralized in the Valley of Mexico and the capital, Tenochtitlan, making it one of the most densely populated and richest regions on earth.

>>865111
Still, since no horses were available, the furthest food-tributing region was located only 300 km from Tenochtitlan, which is the distance between Genoa and Venice.
Additionally, the logistics reports suggest that this food was likely sent to the Aztec garrison in Oaxaca instead.

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Contributing with pics.

pic related Mixtecs

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>>867816
El Tajin

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>>867822
Maya

>Aztec """Empire"""
>impressive

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>>867826
Tlatilco

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>>867831
Aztec dance ceremony

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>>867837
Aztec nobles

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>>867839
Maya scribe

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>>867842
The Maya coastal city of Tulum or Zama as it used to be known.

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>>867849
Maya ballgame

Aztecs were shit, didn't even have writing system and had to use little pictures like children.

Maya city-states were ten thousand times better. Actually had writing for one, and a more elegant refined style.

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>>867852
Maya city (I forget the name)

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>>867854
Also Maya boxers.

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>>867865
we wuz mayans and shieet

>>867865
That is some 100% badass shit right there.

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>>867822
The aerial dance is still performed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9qA1DRHYOA

>>867865
>shell fists

jesus christ that is amazingly bizarre/fukt up

>>867865
were these guys painted black or were there actually blacks in mesoamerica?

>>868027
>>867918
>Ding Ding Ding:
>Alright gents, let's keep it fair. No biting, no gouging, no groin strikes. Now go kill each other.

>>868055
unmarried mayan warriors sometimes painted themselves black or red.

there might have been black people in the americas at the time, but they would have been deep south in south america.

>>868055
Black paint. Colors were associated with different meanings abd people applied these paints on themselves as part of certain social groups or during ritual occassions. Black was often associated among the Maya with warfare, fasting, sacrifice, the direction west and in the yucatan it was reported that youths were paibted this way. There is no evidence of any African influence in mesoamerica.

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>>868055
Only some warriors were allowed to paint their bodies black, for example, the Mixtec commanders.

>>868025
Fuckin nope

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No sandbox game where you start as a low class aztec slave and end up commanding the entire Aztec Army against Tlaxcaltecas.

>>868025
Well now that tune's gonna be stuck in my head

>>868025
Has anyone ever fallen and died from this?

>>868225
>No written language.
>Aztec Glyphs
K m8.

>>868225
>>868256
just a troll.

report and move on. thank god /his/ mods actually ban people

>>868256
written language is not drawing

>>868259
the fact the you're upset doesn't mean I'm trolling, I'm just saying they were far from impressive compared to romans

>>868206
Yes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjZun9kZ_YY

>>868259
>troll

Aztecs were shit. Didn't even have a proper writing system, unlike the Maya.

Teotihuacan is where it's at. The greatest city of the New World - such that even the puny Aztecs thought it had been built by the gods.

Also:

>everyone who disagrees with my opinion should be banned

How about heading to Tumblr?

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>>867826

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>>868309

>>868286
True, it's not a true form of writing, but it was the more convenient form of communication for the people that used it. Both the Aztec and Mixtec people used a pictographic writing system because they lived in very multi-ethnic regions. The valley of Mexico where the Aztecs and the Nahuas settled, was inhabited by several different people including: Mazahua, Matlazinca, and Otomí. If you include the people they were in regular communication with you have the Huastec, Totonac on the gulf coast, the P'urepecha and Yopi in the west, Mixtecs, Chiapanecs and Putun Maya in the east and the Xicalanco, Ngiwa in the south. The Mixtecs had a shit ton in Oaxaca, including the Zapotec (who had a written but as of yet not deciphered ancient writing system of their own), Amuzgo, Trique, Chontal, Mazatec, Chinantec etc. So this was the most convenient way of communicating with all these people, who spoke completely different languages and often included tonal differences that nonspeakers would have a hard time understanding in writing.

The Maya were blessed in that they while speaking 20 something different languages all belonged the same family, kinda like how you have the latin or romance languages. In their writing system they typically used Chol Mayan as the written language in the same way people wrote in Latin or French.

>>868297
oh shit

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>>868399
>Muh idols

Totonacs in Zempeola

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>>868491
Piedras Negras

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>>868500
Copan

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>>868504

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>>868536

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Yaxchilán had a nice bridge.

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>>868540

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>>868547
Lady Xoc of Yaxchilán.

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>>867837
During the second month of the Solar Calendar, which according to Durán begins today, the Aztecs used to organize 'gladiatorial' combats between their highest military ranks and the enemy elite warriors and commanders that were captured in battle. As part of the festival, nobles from all Mesoamerica were invited to witness these combats.
Nevertheless, only the Aztec warrior would fight with an obsidian weapon and his movement wouldn't be limited due to being attached to the sacrificial stone. The battle would be over when the Aztec warrior was unconcious or when he managed to bleed enough his foe.
Usually the first combatant for the captured warrior would be his captor and if the latter was victorious he would face several other contenders.
A famous Tlaxcalan warrior, Tlahuicole, was granted his liberty after killing 8 warriors and defeating 20 more but he prefered to be sacrificed than bring dishonor to his country's name.

>>868563
why is she licking rope

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>>868580
He's pulling a thorny rope through her tongue in an act of bloodletting. Mayans were into some masochistic shit.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodletting_in_Mesoamerica

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>>868592
>He's
I mean she's.

They also stabbed their tongues and other body parts with stingray tails.

>>868592
kinky

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>>868608
And who can forget the dick stabbing.

>>865095
>Regardless, they kicked Rome's ass in a lot of ways.
b8, please

>>868579
>A famous Tlaxcalan warrior, Tlahuicole, was granted his liberty after killing 8 warriors and defeating 20 more but he preferred to be sacrificed than bring dishonor to his country's name.

holy shit what a badass

>>868613
>dick stabbing.
dear god why

>>868633
Usually Maya kings did this in their ascending to the throne ceremony when they were being legitimized. Also apparently Maya warriors thought it brave to do bloodletting, and only the most brave did penis piercing bloodletting. Tha Spanish friars who first observed this practiced wrongly at first assumed they were practicing circumcision.

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>>868302
>Teotihuacan is where it's at. The greatest city of the New World - such that even the puny Aztecs thought it had been built by the gods.

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>>868731
Teotihuacan priest and elite woman.

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>>868744
Teotihuacan at its height, around 450-650 a.d.

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>>868813
Do you happen to have any of these images without the watermark anon?

What about the nomadic tribes. Are they mesoamerican?

>>868832
Sadly no, the watermark is from the Mexican National Institute of Anthropology and History.

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>>868813
>>868832
Not the same image, but the same reconstruction as far as I can tell.

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>>869018
Do you mean the Chichimecs?
They kind of are and kind of not. It depends, but they were neighbours and at least some of them were semi nomadic.

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>>869018
nope

>>869220
>>869253
What about the Pueblo peoples like those at Mesa Verde and Paquime? I believe the people in the city of Paquime even traded with the Mexica and had knowledge of Tenochtitlan, and their population was not nomadic.

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Hey guis, whatcha doing in this thread?

>>869271
I think they call that área Oasisamerica.

>>869363
Hello, you bandit.

>>865095
if they went toe to toe with a roman empire they would have gotten fucked hard

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>>869363

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>>869509

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>>869363
just chillin m8, how you doin?

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>>869515

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>>867816
They were quite skilled goldsmiths.

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>>869976

most of those images are romanticised

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>>869976
Did you say gold?

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>>870031

>>870044
Kek do you have the british one?

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>>870051
does this count?

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>>870007
Here's an aztec work for comparison.

>>870071
GOLD STANDARD
O
L
D

S
T
A
N
D
A
R
D

>>870119
Damn imagine whacking someone over the head with that thing

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>>870156
It's a spear thrower

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>>866536
You don't need horses for food transport, boats are the way to go!

>>868084
>there might have been black people in the americas at the time, but they would have been deep south in south america.

u wot m8

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>>869976
>>870007
>>870119
Don't wanna be hatin but...

>>870195
Not that anon, but I think there's a site that is dated to around 40,000 years in brazil somewhere (it's not widely accepted as being accurate, and it's not fossils or anything). But the suggestion is that maybe an earlier wave of people made it the Americas at a similar time as aboriginals made it to Australia, but then later died out, with modern native Americans making it to Alaska around 15,000 years ago.

It's not really a supported theory, but it's not complete tinfoil.

>>870170
Very interesting
I wonder who engineered those

>>870207
That's actually quite interesting, got a link or some more exact keywords to that?

>>870214
>The spearthrower is believed to have been in use by Homo sapiens since the Upper Paleolithic (around 30,000 years ago).[8] Most stratified European finds come from the Magdalenian (late upper Palaeolithic). In this period, elaborate pieces, often in the form of animals, are common. The earliest secure data concerning atlatls has come from several caves in France dating to the Upper Paleolithic, about 21,000 to 17,000 years ago. The earliest known example is a 17,500-year-old Solutrean atlatl made of reindeer antler and found at Combe Saunière (Dordogne), France.

>The spear-thrower was used by early Americans as well. It seems to have been introduced to America during the immigration across the Bering Land Bridge

>Spear-throwers appear very early in human history in several parts of the world, and have survived in use in traditional societies until the present day, as well as being revived in recent years for sporting purposes. In the United States the Nahuatl word atlatl is often used for revived uses of spear-throwers, and in Australia the Aboriginal word woomera.

>>870214
Aliens bro

>>870225
I think this is what the other anon was talking about

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedra_Furada_sites

>The mainstream view of the peopling of the Americas, also known as the short chronology theory, is that the first movement beyond Alaska into the New World occurred no earlier than 15,000 – 17,000 years ago, followed by successive waves of immigrants.[9][10] Pedra Furada provides potential evidence for the proponents of the long chronology theory, which states that the first group of people entered the hemisphere at a much earlier date, possibly 21,000–40,000 years ago,[11][12] with a much later mass secondary wave of immigrants.[13][14] This evidence is considered controversial and not widely accepted by experts in the field.

>>870234
I just don't understand is why they stopped using it in the Old World since it can penetrate mail armor.

>>870234
>>870235
I-I DON'T KNOW WHO TO BELIEVE

>>870255
Maybe when bows were developed they were seen as superior (and maybe they were for hunting) and once people forgot about them they didn't later reinvent them, pretty sure there a good few thousand years before mail armour became an issue.

What was the exact tech level of Meso American civilizations?
Were they like Summerians?

>>870255
First: Possible, we don't know, mail stopped lances and spears from time to time

Second: Shields.

>>870272
Mesolithic

>>870449
What? They had agriculture, metal working etc.

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>>867865
Apparently, its been done in central and south America for thousands of years.... And some places still do it. Complete with masks and jaguar print jumpsuits. Blood for rain!

http://archive.archaeology.org/0811/etc/boxing.html

>>870255
The Aztecs who relied on the spear thrower much more actually struggled greater against civilizations that made more use of the bow, like the P'urepecha(Tarascans), Yopi, Tlaxcaltec.

>>870509
Too bad they don't use the shell gloves

>>870614
or sacrifice their enemies and lick ropes with thorns twisted in them

the good ol days

>>870614
In some cases they clobbered each other with large stones. Theres a relief I believe with a victorious jaguar masked fighter standing triumphantly while vomiting blood.

>>870622
Now those would be some highly watched events

OP here. Hardly expected this thread to blow up like it did. I'll post some content I've found that (might?) be interesting and try to answer some of the questions that people have been asking.

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Here's a group of Aztecs engaging some Tlaxcalans. Tlaxcalans are easily distinguishable from other groups in the area because they wore red and white striped headbands.

>>870272
Well, they didn't used the wheel, probably because the lack of draft animals, but they were fond of lost wax casting and many of their metal instruments were experiments regarding the resonance of different alloys. By the Aztec times, bronze axes were used as some sort of money.
Fernández de Oviedo and Díaz del Castillo report that the Mayans in Yucatan traveled on sailed ships and is heavily suggested that they also traded with Cuba and Florida.
The pyramid of Tulum >>867849
worked as a lighthouse that prevented the ships to crash against the peninsula's coral reef by indicating the direction and moment to turn around.

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>>870663

This is a fairly accurate depiction of the "empire" as far as I can tell. It would be more accurate to call it an "imperial confederation" because of the loosely centralized nature of its rule.

>>870272

Don't know much about the sumerians, but I can tell you about some Aztec technologies. They had advanced agricultural practices and plantations called "chinampas" which had 3 or 4 crop yields a year, something that wouldn't be achieved again until industrial times.

They build a roughly 5 mile long aqueduct, engineered a 10 mile long dam which split lake Texcoco in half, instituted mandatory public education for all children regardless of gender, built their capital on a swampy marsh by pounding thousands of stakes into the soft ground and building on top of it, etc.

>>870255

Other civilizations stopped using the Atlatl because they started using the bow before they became "civilized". The bow didn't reach central mexico until the 12th century, meaning that several civilizations had risen and fallen before the bow even made it there. Atlatl is less effective at hunting than the bow, but it's still useful as a weapon.

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>>870668

Aztec battle strategy was actually surprisingly advanced. The army was massive in overall size, and was organized into "xiquipilli", battalions of 8000 men.

On the battlefield, they would form ranks (anyone who broke ranks was killed or beaten) and would engage the enemy in a loose formation. Tight combat formations were originally adopted as an anti-cavalry tactic, which was obviously unnecessary in a region where horses didn't exist. The front line troops would fall back and rotate with the next in line troops every 15 or so minutes in order to rest and repair their fragile obsidian weapons.

>>868171
It exists, it's called llama & blade

>>869220
the third one looks like hes gonna drop the most black metal album of 650AD

WE
WAS
DICKSTABBERZ

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>>865095

>Regardless, they kicked Rome's ass in a lot of ways

Never bet against Rome's ability to destroy other civilizations.

>>870356
>First: Possible, we don't know, mail stopped lances and spears from time to time
Probably, I'm just alluding to the reports of Díaz del Castillo and Inca Garcilaso de la Vega .
Still, shields don't explain the use of javelins.

>>870604
I think that military logistics should also be considered because neither the Tarascans nor the Tlaxcalans managed a contundent victory against the Aztecs. Another example would be the Aztec conquest of Tehuacan, a region famous for its archers who could shoot 3 or 4 arrows at the same time, according to Francisco Clavijero.

>>870686
>The bow didn't reach central mexico until the 12th century, meaning that several civilizations had risen and fallen before the bow even made it there.
Albeit there's not a single bow depicted in the Mayan art between 200-1000 a.d. it's obvious that it was a common weapon. As in Northern Mesoamerica, the atlatl was a status symbol.

>>869220
Lady on the top left is stylish as fuck.

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North America best America

>>867852
What are those rings on their stomachs for?

>>871316
uneducated anon here but maybe to help bounce the ball off their body? just my guess

Does anyone know where one could learn Nahuatl?
I was thinking of looking around when I go to uni, but considering it might not be a popular topic in Finland, I'm not so sure.

>>871342
from what i know you could maybe learn it online. its still spoken by a lot of natives in mexico, though none of the versions that each tribe speaks is the original and they're at the very least somewhat different from each other and at the most starkly

>>871350
Are there online resources for the classical version though?

>>871310
If it's so great, where are all the kooky colors?

>>871401
>This is what the proud Aztec empire became
I'm sad now.

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>>871403
lol

>>870044
>Spanish possessions in Southern Greece in 1640

wat

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>>871401
There are remnants of the old culture left.

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>>871471

>>871509
As someone who knows virtually nothing about mesoamerican history, tell me, were there ever any major scale conflicts between the big three powers that people like to talk about? (The Inca, the Aztecs, and the Maya)

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>>871509
Musicians and dancers dressed as underworld creatures.

Note: Maya underworld was sometimes thought to be aquatic.

>>871512
As someone who isn't an expert but knows a bit about it, the Maya were around before either, and the Aztec and Inca were separated enough that this didn't occur.

>>871521
Thanks man. Do you have any info on why these specific cultures made it when others didn't?

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>>871512
The Inca no. Between the Aztec and Maya there were no major battles, but there was some exchange. The closest they got to waging war was when the Aztecs conquered Xoconocho in the east on the border with modern day Guatemala. They were within a doorstep away from the Guatemalan Maya kingdoms. I do know that apparently two Aztec princesses were given to two Kiche Maya lords in the early 1500 about a decade before Cortes came.

Also in Chiapas, the Aztecs did apparently confront the Tzotzil Maya. But they were not conquered, they just allowed the Aztec merchants to move in their territories.

pic related

>>871523
>I'm not sure, but when OP comes back he might be able to help out.

>>871523
Do you mean the Incas, Aztecs and Maya in comparison to their neighbors? Or about the Maya in relation to the Inca and Aztecs?

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I find it fascinating the resemblance these warriors bear to their Asian counterparts, the Scythians.

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>>871516
My favourite scene

>>871530
didn't mean to green txt.

But it you're interested in the collapse, Mayans seemed to succumb to overpopulation and drought (and warfare etc resulting from conflict for resources), while the Spanish were the problem for the Aztec and Inca.

>>871536
In relation to each others, was what I meant. Thanks to everyone who answered btw, it's a very fascinating part of history.

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>>871540
There are some interesting similarities in hand movement in Maya depictions of dance with those of Southeast Asia.

>>871548
The Inca could probably have held out indefinitely due to their amazing defensive position if Pizarro didn't have enormous brass balls.

>>871549
Ah well the Maya continued to exist and were still relevant by the time the Spaniards came. The Maya área in this final precolumbian period known as the Postclassic was still engaged in long distance trade, and was known as the place of red and black ink, a reference to their books. The Yucatán saw a semi revival of classic period culture, with stelae being erected again and they preserved some of their artistic style, while being influenced of course by the more popular symbol heavy one used by the aztec, and mixteca-pueblo cultures. In Guatemala, the Maya were much more mexicanized (Toltec influenced) and these kingdoms did not have the Maya writing as their cousins in the north did.

The Maya collapse of the 9th century though only applied to some of the Maya cities in the southern lowlands. Chichen Itza and Uxmal and briefly Quirigua for instance were on a rise.

>>871568
Fascinating. Thanks!

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>>871551
This Maya vase painting always struck me. You can just see the defeat in the captured women, stripped naked, humiliated, holding their babies.

>>871403
Blame the spanish then.

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>>870702
>Aztecs
>using llamas

These are good coloured illustrations, where are they from? I recognize that some of them are from osprey books but the rest?

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>>870255
Javalien throwers in Classical times used a thong of leather to sping and throw the spears, that increased the range and the precision without losing power, while being easier to use and transport. Heck some parts in the Quatres gran chronicles books in the middle age kingdom of Aragon talks about it being used be Almogavers if I recall well, and the Irish still used it until the Cromwell era, pic related.

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>>871706
Here another pic more clear (even when the quality of the painter is questionable).
>>871512
Nope, but they did use very different ways to make war. The Aztecs/triple alliance were the more Rome like in both quality of they militias training/panoply and organization, using a strong warrior class and a very macho culture, followed be the Mayas than varied from city to city. The Incas used zerg rushes, and were the most Rome like in terms of engineering and building, using a very comunal aproach to everything (with the inca and his family at the top of course) and using heavily Auxiliaries. They had elite troops with bronze/tumbaga weapons tough, as well as some auxiliares than were former Mochica than used them too. But the art of war of the incas wasn't as prominent as the Aztec one, so they mainly crushed they enemies thanks to numbers.

>>868108
>those panther legs
The original furries

>>870665
> Aztecs
> bronze

Don't you mean copper? Only some tribes/kingdoms had actual bronze and they guarded the information (of how to make it) zealously.

>>868171
What is the meaning of the guys on top who hold the other guy's hair?

>>871352
Why would you want to learn that one?
If you wanna learn Nahuatl might as well learn a dialect that is actually spoken by some people, rather than one which nobody speaks anymore.

>>871148
>Still, shields don't explain the use of javelins.

They explain why those spear throwers weren't used in Europe. The Atlal is actually more of a dart thrower which significantly lighter than a hand thrown javelin.

>>871952
I just like obscure/dead languages. It's simply fascinating to me. That, and I want to study links with Uralic languages. And also I like to do weird mouth movements in vocalizing foreign languages, which is why I was interested to start with.

>>871956
So you never intend to actually use it irl? I see, in that case knock yourself out.
Idk if classical Nahuatl learning resources are there for english speakers, you might have to learn spanish first to access the ones that they have.

>>869509
>tfw will never be a spic removing human sacrificing little shits

Why live tho?

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>>871934
I meant bronze, the axes were collected as a tribute by the Aztecs. Cortes also mentions that the smiths at Tlatelolco and other city states surrounding the lake could work it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlaximaltepoztli

>>871352
Be glad that there's modern nahuatl, the classical version is lost along with their religion.

>>870044
JUST

>Aztecs didn't even have bow technology

Truly a """great""" "empire"

>>871516

>that one guy w claws and tentacle face
>>inb4 lovecraftian

huh, thats a different take on the underworld than other civilizations. Are there any other civilizations that think of the underworld as something other than full of fire?

>>872511
They did, they just prefered the atlatl.
>>871686
Most are illustrations from National Geographic
>>871944
It's a symbol of grabbing the person tonalli. One of the souls that resided in a person was in their head, in the top knot which was the tonalli, the soul that continued to exist after you died. It symbolized destiny. To grab someone by this knot was equivocal to being a sacrificed victim, a submissive capture. Basically a cuckold.

>>867829
its a stone age empire that measures up to bronze age ones

>>872511
It was a common weapon, but regarded for plebs.
No mayan lord is depicted with one since the conquest of Tikal by the followers of Quetzalcoatl exiled from Teotihuacan.

>>870044
clean destruction

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>>871944
As anon said >>872540
the hair was considered the physical manifestation of the mind soul, just like the light rays around the sun were the physical manifestation of its soul.

>>871540
are these mesoamericans? i thought they didnt ride horses

>>872648
I believe those are Scythians.

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>>871570
Saved. It seems like Mayan artwork shows the most emotion compared to other pre-Columbian art.

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>>872781
It was the most naturalistic for sure.

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>>872869
Although Xochipala and Veracruz figures are pretty expressive too.

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>>872873

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>>872875

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>>872889
One on the left is a guy though.

>>870677
>built their capital on a swampy marsh by pounding thousands of stakes into the soft ground and building on top of it
Wasn't that just for crops and individual houses? I can't imagine that holding up temples without sinking problems even with the stakes.

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>>872970
Aztecs settled in the valley of Mexico in the 1200's as homeless nomads, became vassals/mercenaries for azcapotzalco, toppled the old order rebelling against their overlords and reached their peak in 1519.

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>>872869
What I like about the Aztec sculptures is that most of them are representing either impassiveness or a trance state, in other words, features of an ideal warrior.

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>>873017

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>>873024

>>873017
Aztecs started as mercs, coming from being wandering tribes (in they myths with lots of peace, love and sodomy) and idolized a very roman-like macho culture (homo act receivers being considered the lowest, the pitcher unafected etc).

>>873070
I don't know how it worked prior to their arrival to Mesoamerica, but in the Florentine Codex Sahagún says that active homosexuals were impaled and passive ones had their innards ripped off by the anus.

>>872927

Chinampa gardens had a wall to keep the soil in, but didnt require a foundation. Houses likely didn't require much of a foundation either, as the strong majority of them were relatively small with only one floor.

The heavier architecture like the templo mayor was constructed out of lightweight, porous volcanic stone, which meant that it wouldn't sink as quickly. All of the temples and courtyards, etc. Required a foundation though. They modeled the city after Teotihuacan and quickly mastered the art of advanced architectural planning.

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>>873112
Curiously, the Maya accused the Nahuas of being anus buggers.

Although homosexuality does appear in Maya art.

>>873112
IT could be, I will ahve to look for that part in my books but I would swear Aztec actives didn't get shat one like passive ones, but It could be another culture.
The zapotecs for example had a very sacred institution of the third genre of gay men than wore women clothes, very loved be they mothers because they cared about them more than the other childs, I think they still exist.

>>871423
Aragon had clay there.

>>872897
Some women have penises shitlord.

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>>872511

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>>873070
>and idolized a very roman-like macho culture
I don't think their culture can be described that way. They praised the bravery to fight against death, whether it was an animal, a warrior or a woman. That's one of the reasons they despised homosexuality, it didn't bring life.

>>867829
>""""""Holy""""""
>""""""Roman""""""
>""""""Empire""""""

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Is it true that eagle warriors were kind of reconnaissance corps while jaguars were used heavy infantry? Could a soldier get a higher status than these two types of warrior?

>>873410
Not sure about your first question. But yes warriors could advance up to the cuachic status. The Aztec berserkers who shaved the sides of their hair like a mohawk.

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>Frederick Catherwoods drawings of Maya cities around 1840. Raising them to public knowledge at the time.

Seriously go to library and check book about his work.

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>>873702

How much and what sort of color did mesoamerican cultures use in their buildings?

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>>873709
Last.

>>869363

PLS GO

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>>873712
>Color was used to paint murals and entire pyramids and palaces: most Maya buildings were painted red. So to study Mayan archaeology, ethnography and especially most artifacts, you run into color pretty quickly. The Maya colored even their cacao: it was not chocolate color but red, from achiote.

Red for Mayas, I don't have real knowledge, but most likely their goverment and temple buildings.

>>873759

Neat, it always triggers me that drawings and CGI reconstructions tend to portray every damn building and statue as if the people who made them were content with commieblock color scheme.

>>873702
wow this is amazing thanks

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>>873410
A modern interpretation more than anything really.
Generally speaking, the main difference between both orders was that eagle warriors studied in a noble school, while jaguar warriors in a commoner one. Albeit each warrior had to capture 4 commanders to achieve this rank, which meant they also captured the 400 soldiers led by each commander , it was believed that Eagle warriors would perform better in battle because they had astrology notions and knew what strategies were more suitable in a certain date.
Only two ranks were above, the Otomitl (Otontin?), which is vaguely described but required the capture of 5 or 6 commanders, and Cuachicqueh. These warriors had a mohawk haircut that ended in a hair tail tied to the left ear, which they decorated with as many tassels as brave deeds they had achieved. In the battlefield, they would always fight in pairs and lead the frontlines, knowing that if they ever stepped back they would be killed by their own comrades. Every Aztec king and general fought in this rank.

Here's a documentary I enjoy rewatching from time to time. It's about the Aztec writing system (more specifically about the Mendoza Codex) It was some really good animation that gives depth to the concepts. (It's in Spanish and captions can be a little flaky but still worth a watch).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB-V_vDReNM

>>865095
So you're saying they were imperial oppressors and the white man didn't bring anything new?

>>873759
Tulum was painted blue though. And some temples were painted green. These were postclassic period buildings though.

>>874401
Yeah, that one is Classic Period Palenque (600-800 a.c.)

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>>874427

>>874291
The White man was viewed as just another group. And the conquest of the Aztecs was largely composed of other natives themselves, without them or the diseases which weakened them during the siege of the city (even killing their second to last ruler), I think it would be extremely difficult or impossible.

The Maya had interesting views though. Those in the Yucatán often had relations with the British pirates and lumberjacks. Even today, in some communities they call them the red people, due to the redcoats they used in the 1800s. In Chiapas, the Lacandon Maya think foreigners, nonmayas like whites and blacks came from a deity that rides a horse, carries a pistol and hat, and goes around trading and spreading disease. They call him Akyantho, and his son is Hesuklistos or Jesús Christ.

>>874118

Not sure where this info is coming from anon. Most anthropologists agree that there is no distinction between the eagle and jaguar warriors, save for decorative attire.

It's true that they had to capture at least 4 enemy warriors, but they didn't have to be generals or commanders. Some enemy combatants (like Tlaxcalans, huexotzincas, etc.) were valued more highly than others, so there might have been some leeway in terms of military promotion.

Cuauchicqueh were imperial, front-line shock troops, meaning that they were the first into battle and the last to leave. Under no circumstances would any important officer (let alone the emperor) participate in the initial charge. They likely had their own, hand picked entourage of bodyguards.

>>871526
/fa/ as fuck

>>873410

Eagle and Jaguar warriors were basically the same except for their battle dress. They wore cotton quilted armor under their Tlahuiztli. They both utilized round, wooden shields, Macuahuitl swords, and wooden helmets.

For the most part, the aztecs lacked a distinctive, professional warrior class like the knights of europe or the roman legion. The eagle and jaguar warriors and everything above them were probably the closest thing to professional warriors that they had.

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>>870205

>>875271
kekd

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>>867826

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>>875926

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>>875927

>>875282
Wut? Jaguar and eagle knights were a professional warrior class like the knights of europe or the roman legion.

>>873294
Not in 1640.

>>875252
I'm going to go with this guy.

>>875527
Oh my god that's hilarious

>>875527
Source? I find it hard to believe any legitimate source would use the word cuckoldry unless the word used to be a very clinical term before it became a widely referenced internet fetish.

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>These "great" "empires" got absolutely obliterated by 200 Spanish adventurers

>>877279
>These "great" "empires" got absolutely obliterated by several Afro-Eurasian diseases hitting all at once
FTFY

>>877283
This meme need to end. The explorers did not bring any diseases with them.

>>877283
>>877279
I thought it's now believed populations were already depleting by the time the Spanish arrived

>>877290
Their animals did.

>>877302
If there animals had diseases, then why didn't they die?

>>877279
>this "great" "comment" implies that "200 men" defeated the Mesoamerican empire(s)

>>877290

Didn't Cortes' reinforcements bring smallpox?

>>877299
Estimates believe the valley of Mexico itself had around 10 million people. This was reduced to about a million or less. The outbreaks were especially strong in urban zones like these. The more widely dispersed rural areas in the mountainous and rough terrain territories were less effected and had greater success repelling spaniard attempts into their lands. So their people managed to preserve their culture more, like the huichol of today.

>>877307
Diseases jump species and affect humans. Humans in the americas didn't have immunity to the same diseases eurasians had been exposed to for thousands of years livibg amongst these animals. The horse for example, which was originally from here had been extinct for thousands of years and died out before any attempts of donesticating them happened.

>>877322
Yeah I once read about secluded Maya groups that were never conquered until the days of the Mexican Empire

>>877290
>>877299
>>877302
>>877313

OP again. Smallpox arrived in the new world after cortez made it to tenochtitlan. One of the african slaves in Panfilo de Narvaez's expedition (he was sent to arrest cortez and bring him back to cuba) had the disease.

>>872781
looks almost like chinese art

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>>874435
thats really interesting. Bring more like this, i really like cultural shock from one world view to another.

Also andean peoples (colonial to modern era) always identify goverment as a foreign entity since that was the case even before inca times, so introducing a mainly hispanic ruling class was almost acceptable as it followed that tradition (though they lacked the "legality" through marriage with noble families at first) which would along other factors explain the ease they had conquering the empire

What caused the largest cultural shock and unrest though was the new rulers inability to "retribute" or give something equivalent for the mita services and tribute they gave to the conquistadors (incas, although were very tax heavy they usually provided communities with tools and resources which spaniards never did)

Knowledge of writing and scholarship was a concept completely new to andeans since they didnt knew how to write nor read (the kipus as more than administrating tools is a meme), and they thought that spaniards "spoke" to books when reading aloud the bible or an edict.

To this day, in the more traditional andean communities, scholarship is considered a thing of "white" people and that it is a power that its transmited (forgot the exact name of the power, but is a noun). Very much like the black people concept of "acting white"

Translated liberally from: "Los Indios del Perú" Juan M. Ossio

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>>877131
Have it in both print and digital.

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I've read somewhere that the small size of the Incas empire was because They had a very small radius for army opérations due to the lack of means for food transports. Lama sucks and men eat their own chargement Too fast. Also their corn would rot rapidly in humid areas. I think it's Jared Diamond Who said that. Pic not related

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>>875527
To this day in latin american countries, the equivalent for cuckold is "el cornudo" or "the horned/horny", while cuckold is used only for the bird and the name of the boogeyman monster "te va a comer el cuco/the boogeyman is gonna eat you" instead of the germanic sense

>>877290
This.

The natives died by the millions because of God's righteous wrath, not """diseases""". Plus Germ THEORY is just a theory, a guess.

>>877290
>>877752
He never implied that they brought the diseases on purpose.

>>877322
Secluded groups simply went through disease outbreaks gradually instead of all at once. The urban population concentrations of amerindians still had more survivors than the secluded peoples. That's why there is a larger contribution of Amerindian heritage in modern day Mexico and the Andes than in other parts of the Americas where Europeans and Africans make virtually the entire ancestry of the current inhabitants.

>>877762
Who implied that anyone implied that disease was brought on purpose? I thought anon was just being an idiot and entirely denying that disease wiped out millions of natives. Of course they didn't bring the diseases on purpose.

>>877717
Didn't the Incas have a pretty good logistics for that? I mean, good roads plus i think they had proper grain silos for situations when they need to march to war, so they already have supplies around there.

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I love reading through these colonial documents written by Mesoamerican natives at the time.

>>879571
God damn that's a lot of degeneracy
Thank goodness Catholics didn't conquer North America

>>877717
Dude, the incas were way bigger than the aztecs, from Ecuador all the way to Chile

>>879571
Book name?

>>880071
From Moon Goddesses to Virgins: the Colonization of Yucatecan Maya Sexual Desire by Pete Sigal

It's also in the book, Mesoamerican Voices.

>>879571
how do you know this isn't exaggerated or made up to make the colonizers look bad?

>>868171
>no sandbox game where you play as a Conquistador either

I wouldn't even care if it was AC, I just want to explore Mesoamerica

>>880761
Well it's actually a letter written to the inquisition. It's a protest against another fellow group of maya men who are clergy men working in their community. Also there are other more direct complaints aimed at the colonial authorities. Of course all these had political motivations. But what written accounts didn't?

I'm going to translate the names of the Aztec kings just because I like their meaning:

Acamapichtli: Wielder of reeds-darts-sun rays, Painter of codices

Huitzilihuitl: Hummingbird feather, Beauty of War

Chimalpopoca: Smoking shield, this one is too hard to translate for me

Itzcoatl: Obsidian snake, Deadly ray-thunderbolt

Motecuhzoma Ilhuicamina: Our lord of wrath, Archer shooting at the sun

Axayacatl: Watermask

Tizoc: The one who ritually bleeds. There are different glyphs, but his full name would mean Sacrificial bleeding leg, pierced by jade spines

Ahuizotl: Spiny water being

Motecuhzoma Xocoyotzin: Our lord of wrath, the young (Xocoyotzin glyph remains unknown)

Cuitlahuac: Sacred excrement (Gold), The one in charge to deal with difficulties, Wealthy

Cuauhtemoc: Descending eagle, Falling sun

>>880933
Itzcoatl confirmed for most badass name

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I just found about this and wanted to share it with you guys. Aztecs had a "Death Whistle" called Ehecachichtli, which is basically a whistle that makes creeppy and frightening as fuck noises. Just imagine a few hundred Aztec warriors playing this shit at the same time. Holy Fuck.

Here's how it sounds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94zMdMFyF3I

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I bought these a while ago. Seller's on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271414203851

He custom makes everything, blade size, sharp or dull, wood type, engravings, painting, etc. The blades aren't actually knapped, they're machined or something. Their quite smooth, and definitely not as sharp as knapped blades, but they're nice display pieces.

>>880933

Acamapichtli was a Culhua noble who married a Mexica woman. He started the Mexica dynasty and helped to urbanize Tenochtitlan.

Huitzilihuitl furthered the Mexica's militaristic trend by participating in conquests led by the Tepanec of Atzcapotzalco.

Several towns were listed as being conquered during the reign of Chimalpopoca, although these conquests were likely led by the Tepanec. He was assassinated by the new Tepanec king Maxtla.

Itzcoatl led the triple alliance to victory against the Tepanecs and conquered Atzcapotzalco. He and Nezahualcoyotl of Texcoco began reconquering many of the Tepanec's former tributaries. Tlacaelel was appointed cihuacoatl (sort of like vice president) and began rewriting Aztec history and religion.

Motecuhzoma Ilhuicamina was perhaps the most well known of the Aztec kings. He conquered lands east of the valley of mexico, and successfully subdued the Totonacs of the gulf coast. He also instituted various laws, including stricter sumptuary laws, mandated public education, etc. He also completed a variety of fantastic dams, dikes, irrigation ditches, and other agricultural technologies. He also conquered Chalco after almost 40 years of on and off warfare with the powerful city state. The fall of chalco left the entire valley of Mexico under Aztec imperial control.

Axayacatl was a fairly successful king. He made some significant territorial expansions (including an infamous failed assault on the Tarascans) and successfully incorporated Tlatelolco into Tenochtitlan following the Mexica civil war of 1473. This forced annexation made Tenochtitlan the truly dominant partner in the Triple Alliance. Tlatelolco had the largest markets and the most traders.

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I heard that the Yaqui tribe of northern Mexico was able to defeat the Spanish Conquistadors and only let Christian influence and European trade in on their terms.

Is there any primary source that could confirm this?

>>880972

Tizoc is considered to be the shittiest Aztec king. He barely secured any captives for his coronation (that's a bad omen for them) and did practically nothing to expand the empire. The aztec tributary provinces viewed this as weakness and many rose up in revolt. Tizoc died fairly early into his reign, and many anthropologists and historians believe that he was poisoned by the Aztec nobility.

Ahuitzotl was arguably the greatest military leader in Aztec history. He reshuffled his cabinet (probably didn't trust them after they killed the last guy) and replaced them with the best military minds in Mexico. He consecrated the Templo Mayor with possibly up to 20,000 sacrifices over the span of 4 days. He conquered all the way to Xoconochco in Guatemala, securing tropical resources. He also expanded northwest, conquering around the tarascans to encircle them (common strategy). From what I read, he died in an accident of some kind (falling?).

Motecuhzoma Xocoyotl has been divisive for a very long time. I've read Castillo's stories, and I've read and listened to many historian's opinions. From what I can tell, Motecuhzoma may have been unsure of whether Cortez was "divine" at first, but Motecuhzoma, much like the Tlaxcalans, probably realized very quickly that he was just some dude. Motehcuzoma was actually an extremely successful king. He conquered vast tracts of Mixtec and Zapotec land, and ruled over the Empire at the height of it's power. He attempted to put more power in the hands of the nobility and increase the power of the state. He personally led many conquests, and proved to be a successful military leader.

If I had to guess, he initially didn't want the Spanish to come to Tenochtitlan because they were under arms and it would be seen as a direct challenge to the empire. He eventually conceded, probably because he wanted to meet them face to face and see who they were and what they wanted.

>>880952
>blades aren't knapped

Don't you ever post in this or my son again.

>>880995

Once the Spanish were in Tenochtitlan, they were pretty much helpless. Motecuhzoma could have easily raised an army of 30,000 or more soldiers and crushed the Spanish. But it seems that he miscalculated the situation. The spaniards took him prisoner, and so on an so forth. The conquest was very ugly, and much of it was the fault of Motecuhzoma's apparent complacency. He was simply trying to keep his empire, and keep himself alive.

Cuitlahuac lived for 2 months or something like that before he died of smallpox. sux 2 b him bro

Cuauhtemoc was the final Aztec emperor. He fought as hard as he could, but the introduction of smallpox, the deaths of two previous kings, and the new Spanish-Tlaxcalan alliance proved too destabilizing for one man to handle.

Hopefully that's an accurate description. I didn't feel like looking most of this shit up. I have a lot of it committed to memory. Yay anthropology major! Desperate poverty here I come!

>>871516
There's a lot of water imagery in Mayan culture

>>881017
>Cuauhtemoc was the final Aztec emperor
>descending eagle, falling sun

>>881017
Do you know if the Tlaxcala became important figures in the New Spain society? Or did they fall into the bottom of the caste with other "Indios"?

>>871516
didn't they used to bury the dead in caves that are semi-filled with water?

>>881079
>For the most part, the Spanish kept their promise to the Tlaxcalans. Unlike Tenochtitlan and other cities, Tlaxcala was not destroyed after the Conquest. They also allowed many Tlaxcalans to retain their indigenous names. The Tlaxcalans were mostly able to keep their traditional form of government. For 300 years of colonial Viceroyalty of New Spain rule, the Spanish mostly held true to the Tlaxcalans' conditions of 1520.

>>871526
Wham?

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>>880780
That feel man

>>868547
Holy shit. Did not expect that much engineering expertise.

>>868579
>A famous Tlaxcalan warrior, Tlahuicole, was granted his liberty after killing 8 warriors and defeating 20 more but he prefered to be sacrificed than bring dishonor to his country's name.
Movie when?

>>869402
You needn't go that far. Romans recruited from locals. The locals hated the Aztecs. Rome wouldn't need to pull all the breaks to face the Aztecs.

>>872889
>women
Check again, son.

>>873251
You mean the trannies from Oaxaca? Yeah, it's tradition.

The Aztec's had a god of homosex and fuckbois taken from the Toltecs. Maybe you meant them?

>>880933
>Ahuizotl: Spiny water being
Who would name their son that?

File: Ahuizotl_shield1322844188655.jpg (171KB, 1200x1285px) Image search: [Google]

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>>881658
Well, it's hard to translate. Here's the glyph.

>>875527
When you about to lay down the beat

did North American tribes ever have contact with the Aztecs or Mayans?

also, getting a little off-topic, why didn't North Americans develop as much as them? were any of them showing signs of reaching that level before the Europeans arrived?

>>881658
Ahuizotls were also these weird water creatures that with slick shiny dark or black fur. The also had a hand at the end if their tails and ate fingernails. Their faces resembled a dog like animal.

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>>881586

>>880977
they still exist, they used guerrila tactics thats why the spaniards never conquered them

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>>881800

File: Japanese Come to Mexico.jpg (1MB, 1500x1283px) Image search: [Google]

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>>877666
>Bring more like this, i really like cultural shock from one world view to another.

This is from the diary of Chimalpahin, a descendant of the lords of Chalco, in the valley of Mexico. He moved to Mexico City, and in his diary wrote about the Japanese ambassador visiting the city in 1610. I think it may be refering to Hasekura Tsunenaga.

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>>882039

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>>882136