Communism/anarchism never worked anywhere

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Israel, Spain

>>849373
>B-but muh Catalonia!

>>849409
Israel: kikes, never trust them.
Spain: anarchist revisionism. Totalitarianism disregarding human rights, and private enterprise.

>>849410
It's such an oxymoron really.
>Oh, we advocate no state, total freedom, unless you want to engage in private initiative, in which case we will crush you and will coerce you into a collective factory or farm. But total freedom, right, guise?

>>849373
Communism worked pretty well in Cambodia. Pol Pot made 50% of his population equal. The other 50% survived.

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>>849373
>>849422
>>849515
>It's another right wing "resisting fascism is totalitarian" thread

>>849422
wew good thing we sorted that out. Thank you for methodically disproving your critics OP

>>849422
>Communists disregarded property rights, therefore communism doesn't work

wew

How many times was it tried independently and not as an offshoot of the already degenerated USSR?

>>849373
It does work quite well on a small scale. Little communal farms in California and such.

It also worked quite well for the vast majority of human history. Hunter gatherers were essentially mostly communist anarchists.

Whether either would work on a larger, national level is impossible to foresee. It's never actually been honestly implemented and there would be a lot of problems to solve. Plus, the elites wouldn't want to give up their current favourable positions, so you'd receive a lot of struggles.

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>tfw the Free Territory was crushed by the Bolsheviks before anything could happen internally either way

>>850333
>Hunter gatherers were essentially mostly communist anarchists.

To be fair that was mostly because they were living day by day and didn't exactly have the capital or time to set up any complicated hierarchy.

>>849373
Medieval Iceland the is a pretty good example of anarchism done right.

>>850333
>It also worked quite well for the vast majority of human history. Hunter gatherers were essentially mostly communist anarchists.
Just because Marx said hunter-gatherers were "Communists" does not mean they actually were, however. Not only because of the issue of what a Communist actually is (Go on Revleft and ask them who a "real" Communist is, it's like watching angry apes at the zoo) but also because of the issue of what a "hunter-gatherer" is. Hunter-gatherer communities are incredibly diverse and many have intricate systems that can't just be boiled down to "What the Soviets were trying to do, but more ooga booga". These systems are hyper adapted for their specific location and many go against what various Communist thinkers had in mind (in some way, shape or form). Some hunter-gatherer groups have property; others don't. Some practiced slavery, others did. Etc, etc, etc.

>>850342
They never really got to set up a Free Territory in that sense because the main strength of Makhno's tactics was mobility.

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>>850344
How in the fuck would you know.

>>850408
how would you know they were a communist society? It seems pretty easy to assume the hunter gatherers weren't taking out bank loans to fund expansion into wider regions

>>850362
Very true. Good post.

Every attempt at creating a Marxist socialist society ends up being an oppressive tyrannical shithole (USSR, Eastern Block, China, Cuba).

Every attempt at creating an anarchist socialist society ends up being a total joke that gets BTFO in a few years from both inside and outside (Makhnovchina, revolutionary Catalonia).

>>849373
> i-i-it´s not supposed to work anyway

>>850886
wouldn't call them total jokes, but yeah they always do seem to get btfo

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>>850886

>Every attempt at creating a Marxist socialist society ends up being an oppressive tyrannical shithole (USSR, Eastern Block, China, Cuba)

It's a very dangerous mistake to assume the 20th century socialist states were somehow worse than capitalist ones, one that millions have paid with their lives for. You'll note that all those countries were already sinkholes even before Marxist parties came into power, this allowed the ruling clique to push their population harder than what you saw in the capitalist West. The West, and particularly the US, are barely any more democratic. But the high standards of living there made sure the elites couldn't push their population as hard.

This is where imperialism comes in. Capitalist corporations don't have the same freedom to abuse their domestic population the socialist bureaucracies did, so they simply sought profits abroad. Western imperialism is hardly any secret, countless millions have perished in wars to open up new markets from big business. Cuba, Guatemala, Africa, Vietnam, India, China, Korea, you name it. Until we can accept the reality that capitalism is inseparable from imperialism people will continue to pay with their lives.

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>>851017
>You'll note that all those countries were already sinkholes even before Marxist parties came into power

Can this meme end already?

>>851030

No, the 20th century socialist states were all started in the most underdeveloped backwaters on the planet. That is unless you're going to tell me Russia, China, Vietnam, Laos, Romania, Cuba etc. etc. were all highly developed nations. If so, feel free to embarrass yourself.

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>>851043
Czechoslovakia, Poland, Estonia, Eastern Germany, Hungary?

>>851017
>Until we can accept the reality that capitalism is inseparable from imperialism people will continue to pay with their lives.
And yet, Communist nations had no problems with Imperialism. The Soviets and China (Albeit to a lesser degree) both tried their hand at empire building, and the Soviets succeeded quite well. Cloaking a hostile takeover of a sovereign nation under the banner of "We're doing it for your own good" is just as if not more insidious as cloaking it under "Freedom and democracy". Both are ultimately done for profit in the end, the rhetoric only differentiating whether "The Establishment" or "The Nomenklatura" get to fatten their wallets.

If Imperialism is inseparable from anything, I'd say it's inseparable from humans. Humans are quite good at bullying their lessers. The Klamanth and Haida were both "hunter-gatherer" societies (I quote hunter gatherer because of the problems in >>850362, but the point being they didn't have agriculture) that were notorious for slavery, raiding, and forcing lesser tribes into submission. The Imperialism of the Soviet Union and United States only differs by it's scale.

>>851017
All of those wars were to stop the commies.

What happened when the soviet union was no more? Did the US strengthen its hold across the globe? Nope, the old guard like Augusto Pinochet, Mobuto Sese Seko and Suharto gave way to democratic governments.

>>849373
Idea of International is crap. Five minutes in /int enough for understanding it.
Idea of government based capital, like in North Korea is crap. In that case country take too much economical risks, and can be bankrupt. Also country bureaucrats are poor businessmen.
Idea of capitalism is crap. Firms overproduce wares and services, but resources of the Earth is limited. Firms do unstoppable competition with out meaning, race for money and they are drink workers blood. If in one country firm owner reduce wage in another country his competitor do it too. Race for producing more wares and services while market overpopulated with wares and services stupid as judge Donald Thompson.

>>851060
>socialism works.jpg
I have no idea what that numbers mean because cost of gold dollar in 1938 highly differ from cost of paper dollar at 1990.

>>851060

This hardly tells the whole picture. Growth rates were very similar until the mid-70's. I'd rather not debate the details, suffice it to say the bureaucratic and militarist nature of those governments doomed their centrally-planned economies in the long term despite some immediate successful growth.

>>851071

>If Imperialism is inseparable from anything, I'd say it's inseparable from humans

It's inseparable from anti-democratic states.

>>851099

>All of those wars were to stop the commies

No. The response to the Cuban Revolution and Vietnam War were just attacks on a domestic population that refused to bend over backwards for the US.

>>851153
It's adjusted for inflation clearly.

>>851160
>growth rates

Refer to >>851030

>militarist nature

Then pray tell, how did the US manage to maintain the largest and most costly military this planet has ever seen without going tits up? Nothing but excuses.

>>850203
>Using violence against people who disagree with you
>Resisting fascism

Pick one.

>>852141
>m-muh free speech
>all violence is the same

top wew.

>>849410
Mad

>justify anarcho communism as any historical example! Any! I dare you, commiefag!
>catalonia
>e-except that one!

>>852148
>m-muh free speech

>"I'll show him, I'll put 'muh' in front of whatever I think he cares about. That'll show him"

>>852148
Yeah all violence is the same, if you get stabbed on the street I don't think you'll care whether it's a nazi or a communist doing the stabbing.

>>852153
Catalonia was a failed attempt so not sure what you're getting at.

>>850913
LOL do they actually say that? I've heard the "It's never been done right" meme before, but this is another level...

Anarchy worked just fine most of the human history.

>>852195
>Pre-civilization was fine
kek

>>852141
I'm going to fuck you in the ass and if you try to stop me you're a totalitarian who is using violence because I disagree with you about whether you should be fucked in the ass by me or not.

>>852214
What

>>852201
>muh industrial civilization

wew lad

>>852216
you heard me bitch boy

>>852219
That was completely irrelevant to what I said.

How about you define anarchism, and then explain how it "worked just fine most of the human history."?

>>852223
Not the same person.

>>852225
So then why did you bring up something irrelevant...

>>849373
>>850333

> Hunter gatherers were essentially mostly communist anarchists.

Not even in nature Animals are communist/anarchist. I doubt hunter-gatherers societies were communist anarchists.

>>852237
>muh appeals to nature

Why do you think animals are somehow closer to some natural ideal than humans?

>>852237
How they are not anarchist if there is no state?

>>850333
>>852242
What's the point of talking about a farm? Nobody says their farm or mom/pop shop is socialist or capitalist.

>>851017
When my country started industrializing and started doing things right, and whenever a fairly good democratically-elected government came to power, things ended with a U.S. backed coup d'état. The same thing happened in the Middle East and Africa, which is why their nations couldn't make any further progress.

I'm not going to blame all of our current problems to the U.S. government, but they sure had something to do with them in the past (and even today).

>>852242
There's still a hierarchy, but yes, you're right.

>>852239
Because hunter-gatherers were even closer to nature than we are today.

>>849373
People's Republic of Kampuchea

>>852268
Literally no such thing as 'closer to nature'. You can't leave nature. Humans aren't above it.

>>852162

It was wiped out in a war. Just because it did not survive to the day does not make it "failed" any more than Greek Athens or Ilkhanate.

>>852279
Not that anon, but 'closer to nature' as in living in similar conditions to those we spent the majority of our evolutionary history and hence are most adapted to. see

>>852298
Why does it matter if we live in closer conditions to those we evolved in? And if you believe it is better, why are you on the internet? Why don't you go join a band of hunter-gatherers in Papau New Guinea?

>>852373
If you look at it from that perspective it can explain a fair bit, especially health related. And it's not a dichotomy of one or the other.

>When seen through a macroscopic lens of the history of human life on earth, this truly is a good time to live. Numerous studies echo the same findings; the average lifespan is longer, infant mortality is down. Humans now have a better chance to live longer, healthier lives.

>However, deaths due to non-infectious diseases such as cancer, heart diseases and diabetes are on a rise. Furthermore, people today also suffer from a higher incidence of lower back pain, dental cavities, myopia and mental health issues than ever before in the history of mankind. Almost all of these are examples of mismatched diseases, those that occur simply because our body has not evolved for modern times.

http://scienceline.org/2013/12/dysevolution-how-changing-habits-are-making-humans-sick/

At the end of the day, conditions are always going to be different when a revolutionary situation arises..

Whether you think Catalonia was a failed or positive example of Anarchism doesn't matter, social and material conditions are always going to vary wildly, and those influence the conflict massively.

>>852281
>It was wiped out in a war.
So was literally every anarchist society ever. It just shows that anarchists can't defend their shit.

>>852385
But if were going by health, you have to weigh the impacts. Sure, more people die from cancer and heart disease, but overall, mortality is less. Hunter-gatherers live short lives while people in developed societies live long lives.

>>852466
I'm just saying that modern ways of living result in some complications that were previously much less frequent, I'm not advocating that we return to being hunter gatherers, just that the awareness of the differences between these lifestyles can explain some of the negative impacts prevalent in modern times.

>>852458

Neither could the Communist or Republican forces so im afraid that application of logic is not going to work here.

>>852489
You are fat.

>>849623
Underated post fampaitachi

>>849623
Closest to pure communism we ever got. Pol Pot even outlawed money.

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>>849373

>>852803
Dubcek was a monumental fuckup.

>it never worked anywhere
>it can't work anywhere

>>852808
Can't oolish a turd

>>851134
underrated post

>>852812
thanks aristotle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XEosCE5hRE

>>851043
tell me how underdeveloped backwaters can shit out scientists who develop an atomic bomb

>>849373
Define worked. The DDR was found by the Udssr and came through more then 40 years.

>>852837
sell tea, buy industrial components

>>850344
you can say that. or you could ask yourself why the hell a hunter gatherer society would even need either capital or a complicated hierarchy.

anthropology in general and pierre clastres in particular.

/thread

What about anarcho-capitalism?

>>849409
whait what, when was israel communist?

>>852833

Holy hell that channel is funny.

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Early Rhode Island was pretty great, even if anarchism as a political thought didn't exist back then.

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>>849373
I can't.

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>2016
>socialists still exist
>communists still exist
>communist apologists still exist