Is nationalism a false ideology?

>>818449
It works for some. It doesnt for others.

>>818449
Nationalism is not an ideology.

Nation =/= country
Nation = ethnic group

Get it right

How can an ideology be false?

>>818471
>Nation = ethnic group

You're a retard.

A nation is simply a people living together under one state.

>>818471
A nation is a sociopolitical entity, not an ethnic one.

>>818472
I was going to ask this.

Maybe he is talking about hypocrisy?

>>818471
>Nation =/= country

I never said it did.

>>818471
>Nation = ethnic group

Retard

>>818485
No nigger, a state is not recquired. There is a Basque nation even though there is no Basque state.

>>818513
A nation is just an agglomeration of people.

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>>818485
>A nation is simply a people living together under one state.
People living together in one state is called...a fucking state. Or a polity.

Nation implies shitloads of cultural-ethno-linguistic factors. And it is possible for one nation to have multiple states (i.e. Two Koreas, Arabs) or one nation to have one state (i.e. Japan) or multiple nations in a single state (i.e. China).

I swear to fucking God, It's Anglo-Americans misusing the term "Nation" that;s behind this current fuckup of the free interchangeable usage of nation and state.

>>818533
I'm not equating Nation, and State, moron. Learn to read.

Nation refers to the people living under a state, State refers to the sociopolitical system comprising the people.

>>818449
Nationalism is not a single coherent ideology, there are both left and right wing nationalists and many different conceptions of what nation is. Many nationalist group are ethnic nationalists, but the mainstream western nation is now emphasized as being of shared culture.

Nationalism may have been useful for the founding of modern nation states and western democracy, but if we want to progress anywhere we need to leave it behind.

Spooky as fuck desu

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>>820172

>People think that Nationalism having created all of the world's modern nation-states holds no significance at all to the modern world and should be abandoned entirely for the pursuit of a nebulous, vague, ivory-tower ideal known as "progress"

This is why the west is dying

>>818547
he didn't say you did.
But a nation is not just a states populace.
As he said it is a coherence of shared national myths, identity and often language, ethnicity and religion.

For example there is not single singaporean nation as there are multiple ethno-cultural/linguistic groups with separate identities.
The French are however a nation, as they have a shared heritage, myths, language etc.

>>818449
>literally all countries currently, apart from a few eternal empires were born on Nationalism
>it's false guys

>>820185
globalization bitch nigguh, do you see it?
States are no longer in a position to create a single hegemonic national identity due to the proliferation of both human migration and information due to the internet.
Shit isn't working. States have turned away from enforcing narratives of a shared ethnic history, and the narratives of a shared cultural one are failing all around the world.
The recent nationalist resurgence is a reaction to the fading importance of the Nation in mainstream society, we need an alternative, be that something like Habermas' constitutional patriotism or some hippy bullshit.

Nationalism is neither effective for the 21st century, not is it desirable. Framing the world as an epic us vs the world battle through thousands of years and basing national myth often on conquest and wars is extremely dangerous. We do not want to enter a world where war and state violence begin to be seen as legitimate tools.

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The EU was a misstake

the only way i could see an ideology being false is if it does not live up to its tenets or promises when it is enacted. to test if nationalism is false, we first need to ask what it should be defined as. what it promises, provided people follow it.

>>820202

>the appropriate response to globalization killing the world's cultures and nation-states is to...globalize even FASTER!
Meanwhile

>We do not want to enter a world where war and state violence begin to be seen as legitimate tools.
Literally the only reason why states cannot war with each other like they used to before is because of nuclear deterrence. If nuclear weapons were never invented I can guarantee you that Europe would be as much of an endless battlefield as it was for the 500 years before WW2

>>818471
>Nation = ethnic group
Fucking read a book.

Literally high school politics covers this. There's inclusive nationalism and exclusive nationalism. The United States is an example of inclusive nationalism, Japan is exclusive nationalism. The "nation" is not confined to just ethnicity in western countries.

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>>820238
This anon speaks the truth.

>>820218
>implying
It isn't just nukes.
It is the globalisation of trade and creation of multilateral treaties and organisation.

The late 20th century is hallmarked by cooperation between states. the UN, NATO, SEATO, CENTO, fucking NAFTA, the ICC.
These politically binding agreements between states alongside the internationalisation of markets made war unprofitable, not only would war with neighbors harm your own economy, you would be embargoed for aggressive behavior, it is not as simple as nukes stopped it, even if they did play a role. Nukes only stopped war between rich developed states.

>oppose globalisation
There is nothing to do, it is an irreversible trend that has only been sped up by capitalism, not created by it.
The only thing to do is shape it into something desirable, e.g stopping TPP

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>>820254

>There is nothing to do, it is an irreversible trend

Says you bitch
FIGHT GLOBALISM WHEREVER IT SHOWS ITS UGLY HEAD
NATIONAL REBIRTH WHEN?

>>820263
cosmopolitanism desu

>>820273

Ah yes, cosmopolitanism works excellently - just look at Germany and Sweden and how enriched they have been by other 'cultures'.

>>820282
Worked pretty fucking well in the United States.

>>820284

>comparing egalitarian cosmpolitanism to the inclusive nationalism of the United States

absolutely retarded

>>818449
It can't be false, but it sure as hell has caused more problems than it's fixed.

>>818449
Nationalism is shit. If you're so insecure that you decide to make your nation of birth an integral part of your identity, then I feel sad for you.

>>820303
it's an integral part of your identity whether you want it to be or not

Most people in any given old world country are descended from the stone age tribes who first settled

So yeah, in a way it's retarded how everyone has an elaborate origin story

>>820282
Yes as we can see Sweden and Germany are smoldering wrecks.

>>818449
No

>>820254

>stopping TPP
>desirable

Pick one and only one, senpai

>>820303
>I'm not defined at all by my place of birth
what a classically Western and progressive thing to say, anon. I wonder how you got the cultural context to develop such a stance :^)

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>>818485
No, you are wrong. Two examples.

There is a Kurdish nation, but not a Kurdish state. Thus the Kurdish nation is attempting to create a state for itself.
There is a Macedonian state, but not a Macedonian nation. Thus the Macedonian state is attempting to create a nation for itself

As you can see, a nation struggles to become a nation state, just like a state does, but they can exist in forms other than a nation state.

>>818449
Every ideology is a spook. Nationalism is no exception.

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>>820254
>There is nothing to do, it is an irreversible trend that has only been sped up by capitalism, not created by it.
They said the same in the 19th century.
Heck, the US should have had some new states from it's neighbours or european nations.

>>820238
Colonial nations are basically mutts

Nationalism needs to be defined before we can call it false.

But nationalism, to me, is an extension of community and identity, and telling people they cannot have a national identity is dangerous and misguided. Aggressive expansion and violent things done in national interests are not deniable, but not completely inherent in nationalism. Nationalism can be strictly preservational and this is not necessarily damaging.

Ethnic nationalism is what brought the modern countries into life, save for the colonial countries where the people have no real connection to the land and are mixed breeds so the cling to civic nationalism (a sham).