What went wrong? Militarily, these guys were shit. Asses kicked

Incompetent and antiquated leadership.

It only got worse during fascism, since how much you agreed with whatever Mussolini said was a core factor for having a career in any field.

>>700900
Italians are vain and lazy. You can only expect outsiders to do things for them

>Italy annexed territories non stop until WW2 getting their asses constantly kicked

I think we're good, think what would have happened if we dominated our opponents

>>700900
Italians only do well when separated from the bad influence of other Italians. Also unification was a mistake.

It's something about Italian culture. They can die bravely for a number of reasons, but they won't do it for the state.

>>701238
this fucking this

I never understood how their aeronautics industry went from tip-fucking-top in the 20s and thirties to laughable.
It sounds like a stereotype but they always seemed to make artisanally crafted shit better than industrys and factory made shit.

>>700900
Italy won against austria in WW1 making austria to leave the war... So, Italie was most effective that UK in WW1, this is impressiv...

>>700900
we tried autarchy without the necessary natural resources

>>700944
this
Just look at Luigi Cadorna

>>700900
They were Italian.

Even Austria spanked them through WWI while fighting on two other fronts.

>>701972
>making Austria leave the war
Is this how revisionist history is taught in Italy? Austria defeated the Italian army numerous times, including the embarrassing rape of Caporetto, and suffered its real losses against the Russians and Serbs.
By the time Italy gained its sought after victory it was October 1918 and Austria had already been sending out feelers for an armistice since it was clear the jig was up and the empire was dissolving.

Italy's contribution was so utterly peripheral that it's amusing to known Italians think otherwise despite the facts.

>>703089
>Is this how revisionist history is taught in Italy?
No, and I doubt that anon is Italian judging by his writing

>>700900
very late to industrialise and poor military leadership. It was still primarily an agricultural country on the eve of the war. WWI can really be called the first truly national event in united Italy's history. Before that point, Risorgimento (unification) had been orchestrated primarily by northern interests in the kingdom of piedmont. After that time, provincialism was still very powerful and there existed multiple mutually unintelligible dialects of italian. So full mobilization naturally yielded a force of peasants who had no clue what they were fighting for. What's more, the italian government saw their soldiers and workers as suspicious elements that had to be disciplined. Out of all the entente forces, the italians had the most executions by military tribunal. Therefore, morale was very low as officers beat up their soldiers and constantly suspected them of being socialists (especially after caporetto, even though the accusation was totally false). The italians also tried to go it of their own and fight a war independent of the allies, until caporetto nearly led to the capture of venice.

>>701348
Their airforce was only good on paper so I've read

>>700900
What went wrong during WWII was that Hitler fucked up Mussolini's plans. Mussolini had no intention of Waging a war against the Soviet Union or The United States. Yet he had to join Hitler lest he be annexed by him. Mussolini knew his country wouldn't be ready for another war for several years, yet was forced to begin military far sooner than he had planned against enemies he was not planning on going to war with. He did this to attempt to keep Italy formidable in the eye of the Germans to prevent Italy from becoming Hitler's next potential target.
Italian Aeronautics on WWII were just fine. Their fighter planes received praise from axis and ally alike and performed well during their time period.

Italy is the only country in the world that wins wars with lost battles

>>704546
Nah, Musso was retarded on his own account.

Italy was never prepared for ANYTHING he tried to do. I'll give you sole example that Malta was NEVER conquered despite being a sore in the ass of Italian navy and if Italy would attempt to do it in 1940, British couldn't possibly fight them off.

Invasion of Greece was even bigger catastrophe and I don't think I hate to tell you this.

Operation Crusader succeeded mostly because Duce didn't want to listen to anybody and when asked about retreating because of supply lines becoming a mess, he started talking something about Italian spirit and it never happened.

We can do it whole day.

Basically it was a repeat of WW1. Guys high-up being full of themselves and never listening to feedback from the lower-levels of command, buzzwords instead of materials. And so on and so on.

The whole nation was extremely troubled under Mussolini's rule and had shitty military leadership.

>>701348
Having only cream pilots representing you and having money to pour into R&D is your answer. Italy was only floating economically when the war broke out, so all the things that damned Germany by 1942, damned Italy the very second it got its collective retard ass into the war.
You have a substandard state consisting of 10 million adult males, you're going to have at least a dozen minds capable of being crack pilots. 3000-11000 is a wholly different story.

>>702432
And yet Florence and Bologna were two of the most important cultural centers of Europe and vital to the development of its high and academic culture. Here's your reply, is what I'm saying.

>>700900
During the months leading up to WW2, Count Ciano's diary reveals two important factors that would weigh heavily on Italian performance during the war:

1. Italian infrastructure and finance were still hodgepodge because of Mussolini's economic reforms and development of infrastructure in Naples and Sicily.
2. He and Il Duce were both painfully aware of the Italian military's inexperience and inadequacy.

This is of course, just one war. Also, the Austro-Hungarian Empire has collectively the worst battlefield record of any nation, anywhere.

>>703089
As italian there is no way you can't know about Caporetto.
End like Caporetto is a common sayng for it is a disaster

>>704590
France in ww2

>>704622
France won numerous battles in history. Italy hasn't won a single important one even if you count Sardinia-Piedmont.

>butthurt Asstrians ITT

enjoying your new coastline I see

>>700900
>Militarily, these guys were shit
>were
It's still in their genetics fammm

all this meme and i thinked his was a serious board

>>704590
That's a British trope too.

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>>704677
Trying too hard, Giuseppe.

>Austria is fighting on two other, grander fronts
>still take three years to get an armistice
>get buttfucked at Caporetto along the way so the rest of the allies have to help you

Had it been Italy v. Austria 1-on-1 it would have been a one-sided smack down like Caporetto.

Why are there so many dubs in this thread?

we had just bad generals (luigi fucktard cadorna) but amazing soldiers.

Btw Garyboldi was god.

>>705734
Yeah speaking as an Austrian I don't think Italians themselves are bad soldiers or "subhuman" or whatever, but you really had some shit generals (many worse than ours) and even shittier politicians.

>>705462

>Had it been Italy v. Austria 1-on-1 it would have been a one-sided smack down like Caporetto.
>1-on-1
>Caporetto
Danm AIDF, check your own pic!

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>>705775
>missing the point
Austria held the Isonzo front and defeated the entire national war effort of the Italians in multiple battles while fighting simultaneously on two larger fronts. Caporetto is just an example of Italy being shrekt by a smaller force.

Before you cry AIDF remember that reality doesn't have an internet defence force.

>>705785

>Get rekt
>Make excuses
The Austrians fail at a new front.

>>705790
>get rekt
That part has to happen first. My points from the first still stand.

Try again.

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>>704590
Russia in 1812

>>705790

>Get rekt
>Make memes
The Italians fail yet again on their only front.

>>704611
No, Mussolini was not aware. Everyone knew and lied to him about Italy's real situation, fearing they would lose their power.

>>704611
>the Austro-Hungarian Empire has collectively the worst battlefield record of any nation, anywhere
Except the Italians lost to them constantly without outside help and intervention.
Hence why Italy is even today at the bottom of the pile.

well since the end of the roman empire italy was shit at war

>>704596

>Operation Crusader succeeded mostly because Duce didn't want to listen to anybody and when asked about retreating because of supply lines becoming a mess,

You misspelled "Rommel", you know, the guy who ordered the advance, ignoring his nominal superiors to do so.

>>705808
>Make political system in which you can make a career only if the Duce likes you
>Lie to him so that he doesn't stop liking you
>Praise him when he goes full retard
>Country runs on memes

gee I wonder why they fucking sucked.

>The only times they really won a war was their annexation of Libya and I guess the Austro-Prussian war.
How about when they destroyed Austria-Hungary ?

>>705790
>>705800
I'm sorry that your "country" was buttfucked, but the Italian front could have been avoided if you treated decently your ally. You should be thankful to Italy, it's the only reason your state will continue its irrelevant existence, since they don't want Germany at their doorstep.

>>705830
Meant to quote >>705792 and not >>705790

>>705827
We talking alternate history? Because Austria lost more troops in one Russian offensive than Italy was able to inflict in three YEARS of war.

>>705830
>Italian front
>relevant
keep b8ing

May as well claims Americans won WWI and WWII for the Allies against Germany.

>>705827
Austria-Hungary dissolved because of losses on the eastern front and the political disaster of heavy losses in the Balkans fronts. Italy barely registered as important in the war. Look at their sheer incompetence until British and French troops arrived to back them up: >>705462
>>705785

>>705836
>keep b8ing
Nah I'll leave that you, I'm not mad because my country is even worse than Italy at war.

>>705845
>I'm not mad because my country is even worse than Italy at war.
I'm sorry for your country. Is it Romania?

But you should stop b8ing anyway.

>>705845
>worse than Italy
>defeated Italy every time 1-on-1
>Italy had to get other nations involved to "win" their war
>still get treated like shit in the peace conferences
top kek, calm down Giuseppe. If you'd won some relevant battles in 1916 and 1917 maybe Britain and France would have thrown you a bone.

>>705844
Doesnt look that incompetent to me,the casualties are not very dispair despite Italy being the one storming Austrian trenches,are you aware of how WWI warfare worked?

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>>705852
>he thinks I'm italian

Easy with your inferiority complex

>>705857
>can't argue points
>meme reaction instead
lol if you can't debate shit I accept your concession. You don't have to be Italian to fail as utterly as they do.

>>705855
>Doesnt look that incompetent to me
>suffer 650,000 casualties and get pushed back 100km
I'm sorry you're retarded. Do you need to have WWI warfare explained to you?

>>705866
That's not what your image implies

>>705855
>Doesnt look that incompetent to me

Dude, are you kidding? You don't even have to be in on a nationalist squabble to recongise how shit-tier the Italian leadership of WWI was.

>>705872
It doesn't imply it, the image flat-out states it. Before we move on to WWI warfare would you like me to explain simple English and images to you?

>>705877
What I see in your picture is:
Contained italian advances,italian advances, 1-1.5 casualty rates at worst.
Nigger why are you so mad?are you from Austria or something?

>>705880
I can't help your poor vision when there are two pictures.
Calling someone mad when you're wrong won't make your eyes work, anon.

>garibaldi takes over the entire kingdom of two sicilies (run by the fucking BOURBONS) with only 1000 men to start
>mazzini is only true republican in europe since the romans
>cavour is political genius rivaling bismarck

the only thing italy was missing was prussian-style military, which is impossible when you arent fucking prussia

and they still unified despite any central control, and in blatant defiance of the POPE, NAPOLEON III, and the HAPSBURGS

>>705930
Took three wars, the first they lost to the HABSBURGS omg, the second was only won due to NAPOLEON III, and the third was won due to the Prussians (let's not forget that the Italians were militarily unsuccessful and compelled to the peace table by the Austrians, or the embarrassing battle of Lissa).

Italy's best soldiers have always been those of France and Germany.

Hell, AIDF is worst IDF ever.

>>706005
well memed

>>704622
Look up the battle of Bir Hakeim

>>705808
Not totally true. Yeah, few people dared to say the truth to him, but someone did, and sometimes he was aware of the shitty mess italy was.

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The main problem with their army, was that they were not prepare for WWII. They didn't have good enough anti-armour, tanks and etc. This doesn't mean that the regular solider was a bad one. He fought with obsolete weapons and such. This book go into the alpini troops at the easten front and how they still fought on, even under awful conditions.

>>705949
ignore garibaldi then, faggot. and the real politik of cavour, who created a nation out of straight nothing. jeeeeeesus. the kingdom of italy was created with nearly as much blood as germany, with the exact same tactics. only difference is that it still happened despite official 'losses' on the italian side

>>706405
Bismarck forged Germany with Prussia.

Garibaldi forged Italy with France and Prussia.

Be mad but it doesn't change the fact the Italian wars of independence are a joke.

>A people of artists and musicians and lovers of life in general, creators of philosophy and of literature is not so good at killing other human beings for no reason
>HURR ITALY IS SHIT
:|

>>706522
how do i upvote you?

>>706401

Still, Greeks were even worse equipped and they not only successfully defended, but began pushing them back into Albania.

>>706522
>said people tried playing empire.
Lovers of life my ass.

>>706489
>Italian wars of independence are a joke.

>get others to kill and die for you
>reap the benefits
>this is somehow bad

italy learned well from albion tвh

>>705462
How do 350.000 men go missing?

>>706537
well, invanding them in the winter and not with troops that are prepared for fighting in the mountain, is a sure way to lose.

>>706553

Mass desertion.

>>706559

Don't forget demobilizing half your army right before invading.

>>706559

And then his buddy did the exact same thing with Russia.

>>705823
Crusader was before Rommel came there.

>>706545
>italy learned well from albion
Except for the "winning" part that the Eternal Anglo always does.

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>>706553
you know how the western front was hell?

Now imagine doing it at 1500-2000m in snow.
"The mountain swallows the person."

But also, desertions.

>>706542
There are jackasses everywhere, and when you have a system where jackasses get to have power (such as parliamentarian constitutional monarchy) these jackasses tend to seek power. It is no secret that the italians were loved by most populations of the countries they occupied - Greece, Yugoslavia, even the eastern front. Italian soldiers were more preoccupied with living life than being efficient machines for le totalitarian war state

>>706585

Are you retarded?

Sonnenblume, which was Rommel's first big triumph, started in February of 1941. Crusader started in November of 1941.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sonnenblume

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Crusader

>>706594
But they generally won their unification wars, they got lombardy, venice, the lot.

Then, in the 20th century, they got even more acquistions, even land with germans and slovenes, so not even "proper italy".
And they won ww1.
Even ww2, technically, but that's Italy for you :^)

>>705462
Caporetto had German troops aiding the Austrians senpai...

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>>706609
yeah, loved by most population m8, sure

I think acts such as:
-building a fence around an entire city
-forcefully italianising non-italians
-forbidding usage of non-italian languages in education
-forbidding usage of those languages in public in general
-italianising names
-prosecution of non-italian traditionalist movements
-just general prosecution of non-italian population
-literal civilian killings, just shooting them in the back n shieet
-occupation so totalitarian, a literal terrorist organisation is founded to oppose it

were amongst the most contributing factors to that love.

>>706629
>generally
No, other nations won their wars and gave Italy stuff as part of their own greater games.
Even as a "winner" in WWI Italy was snubbed by the great powers and acted butthurt for the next two decades.

It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic tbqh.

>>705775
Cavour died too early is the problem

>>706654
Slovenes are italians in denial though, they are literally traitors occupying rightful italian clay.

>>706654
>slovenes

stop being tsundere and get annexed

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>>706672
I don't understand what you're trying to say?
In three wars, they managed to get Lombardy and Venice, very important and populous regions back then and now, that are and were filled with Italians.
A worthy trade for some smaller regions full of Frenchmen.

And, they weren't snubbed in ww1, comparatively to their contribution and comparing with other nations and what those recieved, they got a rather sizeable amount of land that was agreed upon in the 1915 Treaty of London.

But what, you're trying to say that "it doesn't count, italy not stronk n kill shieet?"


>>706692
>>706711
This is why we can't have nice things. Stop acting like those subhuman germans, you're better than this.

>>701201
>We're lazy and suck shit: the post
"Just think what would have happened if we weren't pussies and could actually use our advanced technology to fight!

>>706731
uh oh forgot the second quote

>>706721
>I don't understand what you're trying to say?
Are you asking me?

In those wars they were given things by other powers who had their own plans. On their own Italy repeatedly failed miserably. In WWI they were a tertiary front for Austria and yet made no headway for three years until Anglo-French help arrived to empower them to making a token victory at the very end of the war.
Afterwards they were snubbed by Britain and France at Versailles, and this point is one of the issues Mussolini rose to power on.

Go ahead and be an Italian nationalist but don't pretend everyone else doesn't have access to history books.

>>706856
It's nice how you call me an italian nationalists while almost concurrently, meme italian nationalists are slaging me off.

Anyway, my initial point was about the independence wars and how they got a lot for doing "fuck all" and that in itself is a relatively intelligent thing to do (in the sense that they compensated their lackluster military performance with diplomatic maneuvers), all things considered.

And the connection of being snubbed and revanchism are a matter of perception, plenty of brownshirts felt germany "was cheated out of their ww1 victory" however unrealistic that expectation was.

>>706909
>It's nice how you call me an italian nationalists
You seem content to memetext about Italy not being seen as strong and calling German subhumans.

> that in itself is a relatively intelligent thing to do
If it had been the original plan to lose battles, but it wasn't. It was a side effect of other nations having an interest in manipulating Italy. In either case it's a poor point in the context of the thread topic.

>And the connection of being snubbed and revanchism are a matter of perception
But very powerfully felt as a truth in Italy, and in addition to the fact that their poor treatment and minor gains does make their three years of bleeding look pointless.

Cheers.

>>700900
>he only times they really won a war was their annexation of Libya
Correction; Ottomans basically gave up on Libya since they had to focus on the Blakans (wars there) instead. By the time they "gave up" Italians were routed and were being pushed back. Ataturk also fought in this war

This was presumably a German joke during the war:
The German army HQ receives news that Mussolini’s Italy has joined the war.
“We’ll have to put up 10 divisions to counter him!” says one general.
“No, he’s on our side,” says another.
“Oh, in that case we’ll need 20 divisions."

>>707820
kek

At a prewar diplomatic conference, the Nazi Foreign Minister Ribbentrop "sniffed" to Eden and Churchill that if there was another war, the Italians would be on Germany's side.
To which Churchill supposedly replied: "that seems only fair, we had them last time."

>>707820
oh damn, italians on suicide watch