Was he right?

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No, a right Christian is driven by love, Luther was driven exclusively by spite and did the Devil's work.

Yes, christianity was originally a spiritual doctrine, Jesus himself advocated selling all your posessions, that was a way of showing that, in order to follow him you don't need any worldy things such as altars or sacrificies or special rituals or icons. One-ness with god comes from within, by the spirit, through the word of the son aka Jesus.

>>606176

Yes.

The Catholic Church had strayed from the teachings of Jesus and was only interested in money, idol worship, pagan traditions, sex with their sisters and, as it turns out, sex with little children as well (although Luther was not aware of the latter).

All Catholics will burn in Hell for their heresy against The Lord. So will the Orthodox for refusing to believe the Bible.

>>606241
Christ was a religious Jew, Christianity is a continuation of Judaism, not an abrogation of it. The spirit *fulfills* the carnal, making it corporeal. It doesn't say, "Okay, forget the material now."

>>606247
The Orthodox Church is probably the only one the original Christians would feel remotely comfortable worshiping in.

>>606176
In the New Testament a twofold attitude to tr adition can be discerned. The tradition of the (Jewish) elders, together with ot her human traditi on, is rejected. 7 At the same time there is good apostolic tradition which is simply the Christian faith as it was proclaimed and transmitted by the apostles and their associates. 8 The New Testament writings sprang out of this latter tradition at different stages in its history. There is therefor e an important sense in which (apostolic) tradition precedes Scripture, an aspect largely ignored by traditional Protestant theology. But although this has important implications for the origin of the New Testament it does not foreclose the question of the subsequent relation between Scripture and tradition. The New Testament may derive from th e original apostolic tradition but once it was produced it became distinct from that traditi on and the relation between the two became an open question. It also became a question which c ould not long be ignored for the original apostolic tradition did not sudde nly die when the New Testamen t was produced but remained as the context in which it was read and interpreted.

http://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/vox/vol09/scripture_lane.pdf

The answer is obvious

>>606260
But Christ harshly opposed jewry as was shown in the episode with the money counters in the temple...

Also "sooner will a camel come through the eye of a needle than a rich man go to heaven" etc.

History is not a story of right and wrong, it is a story of influences.

>>606267
>The New Testament may derive from the original apostolic tradition but once it was produced it became distinct from that tradition
Not in Orthodox Christianity.

>>606266
a bold statement for which you have no evidence, to be honest. the very first christians were the disciples, and they had no business with the modern day traditions of the orthodox churches, i assure you.

>>606176

No.

>>606271
Christ was an orthodox Jew who supported the Sacred Tradition (Matthew 23:32-33). He was an Essence, but was on board with pretty much everything the Pharisees taught--the main reason he disliked them is that they were hypocrites.

If Luther was wrong why did the church try to clean itself up with the counter reformation?

>>606286
If this is so, they have even more reason to oppose Protestantism.

>>606286
Orthodox music and art is not modernist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noetoc2W4Pc

>>606293
He's right about the corruption but wrong in his beliefs.

Here, Sola Scriptura is effectively destroyed>>606267

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Was correct in calling out the church in its current state, but wrong for ragequitting.

>>606176
He was supposed to reform and unite Christianity, not divide it further.

>>606277
Sexplain to me

>>606301
if you think music and art is the way to salvation, then the teachings of Jesus are truely lost on you.

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>>606266

lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LccpW44CKG4

Copts and Nestorians are much more true to early Christianity.

>>606176
He had good intentions, but things spiraled out of control, and he went way further that what he originally intended. Which is a shame. Then protestantism became increasingly reductionistic, which will be the death of us.
>>606247
>So will the Orthodox for refusing to believe the Bible.
Weird, early lutherans liked the Greek Church a lot and provided it as a standard from which Rome deviated.

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>>606304
>obiwan.jpg

>>606266

This is not true. The first Christians had no interest in idol worship or claims based on tradition. They follow Jesus and his teachings and not an institution.

>>606291
What are you trying to get at here? I read those lines from Matthew but i think the context of your post was lost on me. Maybe i'm just retarded.

>>606308
The Orthodox and Catholic care much more about culture than religion. Believing in Christ and being Christian isn't as important as having a communal culture.

>>606293
Because both Luther and the Catholic Church are wrong, and the Catholic Church has a long history of compromising with whatever is trendy. But Luther is far worse, he advocated wholesale murder of Jews and peasants, and was the most spiteful of men who wanted to remove seven books from the NT for daring to defy his doctrines.

>>606266

I haven't heard of Orthodox Christians speaking in tongues or rolling on the ground being possessed by the spirit like 1st century Christians did.

>>606310
Kinda reminds me of that hindu temple with all the rats.

Not a condemnation, mind you, just an idle observation.

>>606266
>Peter and Paul would be comfortable sharing a seat with Putin
heh, got me there m8

>>606323
I think you are correct, that's why i think Luther was right, he wanted to return to the true teachings of Jesus, away from the cultural appropriation of Jesus's image, perpetrated by the catholic church.

>>606308
I think music and art were extremely crucial Christians and all the Jews before them because there is a precise way of conveying worship that expresses the proper feelings and beliefs. There is some room for variety within that, but there are limitations you have to work within, and if you worked outside of those, they would not be comfortable anymore than with you calling God some degrading insult to act overly familiar with him during worship.

>>606310
>Nestorians

lol

>>606319
Icons were a part of Judaism since before Christ.

>>606308
No, but they are signs from which we can deduce ancient-ness.
But you want to compare on how the "disciples" did things, fine. Shall we start with the Didache? early 2nd century church fathers? Archeology?

>>606344
wasnt Christ the first icon?

>>606344
With out a proof you just a turkey cock

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>>606319

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>>606356

>>606325
1st Century Christians spoke in mutually intelligible languages guided by the Holy Spirit, not gibberish.

>>606324
>But Luther is far worse, he advocated wholesale murder of Jews and peasants
Luther had none of the popes power, he was a low level monk, supported by german princes.

A question for sola scripturists,

Where in Scripture can we find a list of what is Scripture?

>>606371
He took all of the credit for the slaughter of peasants, but then said it's on God, not him, because God told him to advise it.

>>606371
So, being powerless justifies madness?

>>606383
It think Jesus mentions the scriptures as being the word of god somewhere in matt.

>>606401
What about an actual list of the books of Scripture?

>>606401
But which scriptures? All the scriptures were written after the death and resurection.

>>606401
No, man. How can we determine which books are canon out of all the pretenders(some of whom are very good, btw)?

>>606401
>the scriptures as being the word of god

Alright, so what qualifies as scripture?

Can you tell what is scripture by scripture, or do you need an outside source of spiritual authority to identify it? If so, why disparage that authority?

>>606413
>>606414
>>606417
>>606421
Just get a normal bible and count the books, it's not that hard if you want your stupid list, geez...

>>606421
>>606417
>>606414
Since Jesus was God in flesh, whatever He taught is true. This means that we can trust the accuracy of the Old Testament Scriptures which he mentions as being inspired

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>>606424
So can I has the list please oneechan? :3

From one of the 66 books that is since any list outside of them doesn't count.

>>606424
I can't tell if you're honestly missing the point of the question or a deliberately being intellectually dishonest.

>>606266
>original christians feel comfortable about Orthodox priest blessing weapons for the Russian army
lol

>>606430
Just pick up a bible, jeez, what are you even trying to accomplish by this ravenous display of autism?

>>606427
>This means that we can trust the accuracy of the Old Testament Scriptures which he mentions as being inspired
a) He didn't mention explicitly which;
b) he may have quoted from deuterocanonicals;

>>606427
Yeah but he didn't even give a list of which of the OT Scriptures are to be inspired.

In fact...he did not even give a list of inspired OT books.

>>606435
It's an important question and a matter of faith.

Before we understand Scripture we must know its composition.

>>606437
If you read the bible you will find the answer

>>606432
>>606430
how am i being intellectually dishonest when youre asking for something you can do by yourself and putting it up as criticism. If you want a list so bad why dont you google it?

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>>606453
Friendo, are you aware that your reasoning is circular?

>>606453
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question_dodging

>>606453
Yeah but what is the Bible and where in it do I find the definition of its composition?

>protestants

>>606461
If i had a certain type of headwear right now, i assure you i would tip it.

>>606461
My reasoning is; If you want to know the words of god, read the bible

>>606459
This is an important question. I mean the issue of the definition of the Biblical Canon is in fact an important matter of Faith.

We see this being debated during Christianity's history.

>>606472
...why?

>>606477
Could you perhaps explain why this is so important? (which books are "canon" and which are not). I'm interested to hear...

>>606476
But what is the Bible anyways?

Where in it can we find the definition of its composition?

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just

>>606488
it's the word of god

>mfw pagan heretics ask these questions

>>606488
>Where in it can we find the definition of its composition?
Jesus mentions explicitly what is canon, Post Tenebras Lux.

>>606486
For one, without a clear and cut definition of what is and not canonical Scripture, the faithful could easily pick up a heterodox work and consider it to be Divinely Inspired Scripture in their ignorance.

Secondly, when we have those like Marcion who decide to chip off the OT and define his own canon would it not be the case that a definition of what is Canonical Scripture be necessitated?

>>606486
Because there a numerous Gnostic Gospels, and if you say they are canon, and the main four aren't, it really changes the fundamentals of the faith.

>>606427
But then, we should follow even the scriptures from the Torah that the Catholic Church deemed irrelevant.

>>606494
>lower-case g
pot calling the kettle black right here

>>606383
Page 4

>>606266

No, it would be just as foreign to them as modern Protestantism is to you.

Early Christianity wasn't one faith, it was a spectrum of religions similar to how we think of Hinduism today. Being an underground religion for so long meant that it was hard for people on opposite sides of the Mediterranean to communicate, so numerous interpretations of Christianity appeared. Ebionites, Marcionists, Docetists, Donatists, Arians, Adoptionists, Montanists, Origenists, etc weren't deemed heresies until the Ecumenical councils decided they were. Nicene Christianity became dominant because it was founded on consensus and was the most organized.

>>606497
He didn't give us the whole thing apparently.

>>606494
So what is its composition?

>>606486
>Could you perhaps explain why this is so important? (which books are "canon" and which are not). I'm interested to hear...
Because without determining which books are legit, we cannot determine which books constitute the Bible in the first place, and we have no reason to not include other words that were ancient and claimed to be holy scripture. Or we might exclude(as Luther did, btw) books which are inspired.
>>606494
>pagan heretics
Those 2 terms exclude one another.

>>606500
but those arent in the bible, what's the issue?

>>606498
>For one, without a clear and cut definition of what is and not canonical Scripture, the faithful could easily pick up a heterodox work and consider it to be Divinely Inspired Scripture in their ignorance.

And where's the harm in that? I fail to see.

>Secondly, when we have those like Marcion who decide to chip off the OT and define his own canon would it not be the case that a definition of what is Canonical Scripture be necessitated?

No? I don't think so, no.

>>606500
>Because there a numerous Gnostic Gospels, and if you say they are canon, and the main four aren't, it really changes the fundamentals of the faith.

What some person defines as "canon" and not, does not change my perception of the cristian faith. I'm not going to pretend that God actually put pen to paper and wrote some parts, and not others, the scripture was written by men, that doesn't change the philosophy of the faith, for me anyways. Maybe for some people it does.

>>606508
Correct but only one of all can be the orthodox one.

>>606506
Isn't that like Genesis T_T

I think Luther was right, but his actions unleashed a whole can of worms he couldn't have forseen. Catholicism has sufficiently reformed since his time, and meanwhile Protestantism gets a bad rap because of all the batshit insane denominations in rural America.

>>606503
The Church didn't deem any of them as irrelevant, just provisional. Christian logic here is really compatible with Judaism, because Jews don't think anyone outside their race is has to follow the Law to be good with God, an in fact Orthodox Jews strongly discourage gentiles from converting. So if Christ is saying to preach the new covenant to all nations, the idea that peoples who aren't Jewish (except by Christian definition, of the heart) wouldn't have to follow it, and if this covenant for all nations supersedes the old covenant, neither would Jews of the new covenant. The idea of Jewish law applied to all nations is not compatible with Judaism or Christianity.

>>606515
it is composed by those books that show the fullness of the Christian faith

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>this thread
Poe's Law is a cruel mistress.

>>606519
What is and what is not in the Bible, is determined by Tradition outside the Bible.

>>606523
Where else would the definition of scripture be encripted if not in Genesis?

>>606508
>Early Christianity wasn't one faith, it was a spectrum of religions similar to how we think of Hinduism today.
But only the one in line with Paul and the other original Apostles is valid.

>>606342

They're a very early "heresy" that hasn't changed much since the third ecumenical council. Their emphasis on Christ's dual nature as both human and divine was common throughout early Christianity.

>>606517
Which books you say are legit, and which are not, means nothing to God. It's actually arrogant to think that you would be a just judge in the matter, in my opinion anyways.

>>606519
Ok, let's put it another way.
You are currently living in the 3rd century, there is no book which you can call a bible, just a dazzling array of gospels, epistles, and other books.
Some are holy, some are heretical.
How do you determine which are true(again, you have no Bible in the modern sense at that point)?

>>606521
So you mean it's ok for me to take say Marcion's canon as the Canon of Scripture (?_?)

>I don't think so, no.
Why not?

I think it's important when your boundaries are still flexible and fluid thus necessitating efforts to further solidify its boundaries. In the case of Marcion, it's about defending the canonicity of the OT.

Even then, the Canon was still fluid and never really settled. The only formal closure on this issue came about in the Council of Trent.

>>606534
So I can find the list of the Canon there?

>>606530
>the traditions of men detemine what's Holy
I respect your belief, but I'd rather use the books inspired by the Holy Spirit

>>606540
>Which books you say are legit, and which are not, means nothing to God. It's actually arrogant to think that you would be a just judge in the matter, in my opinion anyways.
Given some of them made God into a monster that wants to enslave our souls, Jesus saying very heretical things, Satan being good and all that, it matters. A LOT.

If God is all benevolent he would not let us fall into error, therefore there is no need to question the tradition

>>606539
If you mean the idea of their separation, yes, it was common, but that is crypto-Arianism, since the Gospels talk about Christ as a human, and so saying the humanity and the divinity are separate would mean the divinity is not chronicled in the Gospels. It would also mean that you are not your body, which is not a Christian teaching. You are your spirit, but also your body, to say your body isn't you is Gnostic.

>>606548
Yes, but only if you are guided by the spirit of God

>>606541
There is.

However the boundaries of the Canon are still fluid which means there are books that can be included or excluded.

Mcdonald also noted that this is the case with Judaism in the time of Jesus where there's a core which is agreed upon but there are still fluid boundaries.

>>606541
>How do you determine which are true
The ones that are holy, of course

>>606559
What the fug?

>>606550
And how have you determined which books are inspired by Holy Spirit?

>>606566
And how is their holiness determined?

In Protestant Christianity, the canon is the body of Scripture comprised in the Bible consisting of the 39 books in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament.

In Roman Catholicism, additional books were added in 1546. These books are known as the apocryphal books: Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, The Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), and Baruch.

In Mormonism, four additional books have been added to the canon: The Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

>>606570
If they represent the fullness of Christianity, obviously

>>606568
This is a holy book, not a treatise in geometry, rational approaches are useless. Unless you are a pagan in which case why do you try to understand something you already know is false?

>>606576
And how do you determine that it represents the fullness of Christianity?

>>606575
No this is false.

In Early Christianity there was a flexible canon of Scriptures where whilst core texts are agreed upon, there are still books that can make their way in or out of the canon.

The so called "additional books" are included in many lists of Canonical Scripture and are cited by the Church Fathers as well to varying degrees.

Even Church Fathers like Athanasius who is mistakenly claimed to be proof that the Protestant canon is correct does not in practice, see the additional books as you call it as uninspired. He cites them as he cites Canonical texts according to him as FF Bruce notes in the Canon of Scripture.

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>>606536

Well the Council was the one to decide who was and wasn't in line with the Apostles, and they were also the ones who decided what was and wasn't canonical scripture. It was done by consensus, and those works which contradicted the consensus were burned so we have little notion of how valid or invalid they were. The only reason we even know about half of those heresies is because of Nicene Christian tracts shitting on them, and these aren't exactly unbiased sources.

>>606583
Jesus condoned the books of the torah(old testament), will you take the opinions of a sinner over that of god?

>>606580
If they are inspired by the Holy Spirit.

>>606580
by being Christian

dont worry, i know how being Christian is something pagans like you cant understand, i hope you stop refusing Christ and accept him into your heart

>>606575
>additional books were added

No. Also calling Mormons Christians is a bit of a stretch, you may as well start calling Muslims Christians.

>>606578
You are only dodging the issue here.

We can even say that God guided the Catholic Church to include the Deuterocanon as Canonical Scripture if we follow your line of thought here. And they aren't even wrong in doing this as history shows widespread acceptance of these books as proven by texts such as Codex Sinnaiticus

>>606590
How do you know if they are inspired by the Holy Spirit?

>>606591
How do you know you are a Christian and are accepting Him in your heart?

>>606589
DYK that even Judaism itself in the time of Jesus never had a closed Canon as Protestantism does?

>>606599
If they represent the fullness of Christianity.

No.

There is no god. He was wasting his time.

>>606603
And how do you determine that it represents the fullness of Christianity?

>>606604
There is no what? God? You just mentioned him, so you must have an idea of what he is. Therefore, he is.

>>606606
If they are inspired by the Holy Spirit.

>>606599
>How do you know you are a Christian?
by expressing belief in Christ's salvation

youre grasping at straws here, man

>>606602
As I have said, if you read the bible you will find the truth, what do you want mans sinful opinions when you can get gods word?

>>606613
But we don't even know what God's word is. That's the problem!

For all we know it could be the Quran

>>606595
Alawi Shia are Christians.

>>606612
>by expressing belief in Christ's salvation
Is that all it takes? Why all the different denominations then?

>>606613
just leave him, he fails totally to comprehend that god's word is divine, and is completely above and beyond what some bearded faggots decided was "canon" at some meeting in a gay club 1800 years ago.

>>606588
There are plenty of surviving non-canonical works.

>>606610
>How do you know if they are inspired by the Holy Spirit?

>>606622
Well i suggest you read the koram as well, im just pointing you in the direction of the lord, if you dont wish to travel that way....

>>606628
because they dont express belief in Christ, they believe in some wicked mongrel that passes for "Christianity" through the eyes of barbarian men

>>606629
Why would a benevolent being withhold the list of the books he authored from us and make it so difficult for us to know?

>>606625
They got recognized as Shia Islam by the foremost Shia leaders.

>>606588
This guy hit it in the nail right here.
The true opinion is the Roman opinion

>>606637
Problem is we can't tell if you're lying or not

>>606633
>If they represent the fullness of Christianity

>>606640
his word is -right- in front of your nose. we have been saying all this time. it's in the bible now go read it. shoo shoo.

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Books by the apostles were in the Bible. These books are in due to the apostles direct interaction with Christ. Plus, they were given power of the Holy Spirit in Acts. All of Paul's letters were added as well. Even though he was not around during Jesus' time on earth, he saw the Lord during his transformation from Saul to Paul iirc.
There was and still is some controversies surrounding Hebrews since the author has not been determined.
Originally, 2 3 Peter were not considered due to their short lengths.

The Apocrypha is not in Protestant bibles due to it not being directly from God. These books were written from the time between the last prophets and Jesus. Since God was not directly involved (through a prophet), it is not considered biblical canon. However, the Catholic church adopted the Apocrypha after the Reformation in order to differentiate themselves from Luther.

I'm trying to remember some other reasons why books did or did not get in. I was recently at a seminar that covered this exact topic.

>>606430
Tripfag, you should just read the Bible. Regardless of your faith, its a fascinating and beautiful read. It essential shaped western culture.

>>606622
It is actually the Sikh scripture.

>>606637
Your direction could be wrong since you yourself don't have a definition of what is and what is not canonical in your 66 book canon of Scriptures which means some books could be left out, maybe there's too much or maybe, none of them are Divinely Inspired to begin with.

We can take liberties with the Quran since there isn't really a tradition of Sola Quran in Islam in its early stages.

>>606639
And how can you determine this?

>>606176
yes he was right in calling out the corruption of the church and inviting a discussion on how to reform the church to put it back on course.

to put some context into it, nailing fliers on the church door was pretty normal at the time for people who wanted to voice their thoughts and invite discussion between the publishers and the presiding bishops, but most fliers were just small things like asking for money for a pilgrimage or a discussion about the Council of Nicaea's importance.

Luther's theses asked the questions that the Church didn't want to be addressed, and created the controversy that led to the entire reformation.

as Luther's message spread, the less control he had over it, to the point where people outright ignored what he said to pursue division, instead of Luther's actual goal of a a reformation of the Catholic church to prevent splintering.

tl;dr he was right, but the movement became bigger than him and turned into something he didn't want.

>>606303
This. He could've been a wonderful agent of change and reform. Instead, he led a rebellion and tore a new schism in the heart of the west.

>>606649
Dont trust me, im a sinner

Trust in the lord

>>606651
>>And how do you determine that it represents the fullness of Christianity?

>>606663
with the Holy Spirit

>>606670
>>If they are inspired by the Holy Spirit.

>>606608
>there are no elves
>you know what elves are, therefore elves are real

>>606608
Right. Like I have an idea about unicorns. An leprechauns. So, I guess therefor those are too right? What have you proven beyond a capacity for pedantry?

>>606660
The Roman church is no authority on the bible either

You must find the truth by yourself

>>606669
>Trust in the Lord
How do you know those with conflicting Christian views aren't trying to do exactly that?

>>606676
>Like I have an idea about unicorns. An leprechauns
but you dont

>>606652
It isn't when what you show doesn't even define what should be the Divine Scriptures.

>>606654
Your seminar is just biased. Most scholarly work on this such as Mcdonald for example or Kelly would note that the Early Christians had accepted the so called Apocrypha.

We have lists that survived to even prove it and even synods apart from citations from the Church Fathers.

We also now know that even Judaism itself never had the notion of a closed canon of Scriptures to begin with even during the time of Jesus Himself!

>>606671
And how do you determine the Holy Spirit from your own bias or from demonic influence?

>>606676
The existence of God, repent now heathen.

>>606675
Exactly, they are part of the spritual realm, just as God, although it's a weak analogy, since God has much more spiritual influence today than elves do. But yeah, you're getting the hang of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality#Christianity

>>606676
Exactly! See this post: >>606695

>>606689
>he doesnt know the Holy Spirit
oh, pagans :^)

>>606689
You are only open to demonic influence when you open yourself to it ( for example, by worshipping pagan deities like the Mother Goddess "Mary".)

>>606681
At the very least, I expect the truth that everyone searches for in your way to be the same or at least, non opposing to each other should they be different.

In Protestantism, we see opposing conclusions even when the Bible can be agreed upon on its composition which in none of such compositions is the list of the Bible even given in the first place.

>>606631

It's impossible to tell how much was lost. They weren't all destroyed but many of the ones which various sects from across the Empire brought with them to Nicaea were burned. Shit, they might even have burned a copy of the Q-source if someone had brought it along because it contradicted one of the books written later.

My point is that the Christianity that emerged from Council of Nicaea was founded on consensus and did not encompass the entire spectrum of beliefs of early Christians, so to say that an early Christian would find the Orthodox church the most palatable out of any extant sect is rather presumptuous. The Orthodox Church's cult of Mary would be especially foreign to many of them.

>>606702
Or maybe by trusting in your own ego which you rationalize as the Holy Spirit

>>606711
>Orthodox Church's cult of Mary would be especially foreign to many of them.
It isn't. Elements of it is already there as shown by the existence of texts such as the Odes of Solomon and the Protoevangelium.

By 250, we also get the first ever known prayer to Mary.

>>606704
What/which Jesus do you believe in?

>>606689
Well first of all, you can try not taking the bait

>>606729
The one of the Church Fathers that had been consistently uphold since the beginning.

>>606728

fair enough, I'll concede that the cult of Mary is older than I gave it credit. But, referring back to your original post

>The Orthodox Church is probably the only one the original Christians would feel remotely comfortable worshiping in.

I guess it depends on who we're calling the "Original Christians." Was it just the Jews that Jesus preached to in Jerusalem during his lifetime, or should we include Paul's ministry and the gentiles he brought in? If the former, then Messianic Judaism would possibly be the modern sect an "Original Christian" would be most comfortable with.

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The Romans and the Orthodox have very pretty pictures and nice buildings.

However, God does not dwell in temples made by human hands.

The hallmark of a Christian is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Please take a moment to watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8P1oGF2nnA

Did you "cringe?"

Or did you see a father's overflowing love for his son and a son's ebullient adoration of his father?

>>606822
That wasn't my post. I'm not Constantine though she's cute.

>Was it just the Jews that Jesus preached to in Jerusalem during his lifetime, or should we include Paul's ministry and the gentiles he brought in?
Both. Initially, the main Christians are Jews but the inclusion of Gentile converts that was bought in raised questions as to whether they need to abide by the Torah.

The Council of Jerusalem in Acts narrates this and the decree is that Jews can continue to abide by the Torah as long as they don't shove it down the throats of the Gentiles. The Gentiles don't need to follow the Torah.

>>606830
this nigga gets it. the body is god's temple.

>>606830
God does not dwell in concert worship and so called faith healings either.

The Holy Spirit doesn't act through those. It's just psychology doing its job.

>>606849
>The Holy Spirit doesn't act through those. It's just psychology doing its job.

"Just psychology", huh.

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>>606849
Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

- Mark 16:14-18

>they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

>>606861
Darren Brown exposes this in Miracles for Sale.

>>606846

ah woops. I just saw a tripcode and assumed it was them.

>>606864
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bouAp1pGBwk

>>606867
Have you ever, in your almighty euphoria, considered that psychology could be a major part of the workings of the holy spirit?

>>606878
I can simply change the name Jesus to any other and leave everything the same and get the same results,

the placebo effect and the mind thinking something else is controlling it or whatever

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>>606873
Holy Scripture > YouTube

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>>606881
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
- Colossians 2:8

>>606881
I fail to see your point, to be honest.

>>606886
A former Evangelical exposes the scam of Faith healing.

>>606891
We can apply the same to those so called faith healers of the Protestants and all that speaking in tongues yada yada

>>606894
Because you didn't watch the documentary. So then, why can Darren an Atheist obtain the same effect as those Evangelicals doing the same faith healing crap?

>>606176
Between the HRE and the papacy at the time? No one is right. The situation in germany between the coronation of Otto I and the times of Martin Luther are basically Game of fucking Thrones played out between whore-popes, greedy secular princes, and a more-and-more emmasculated emperor.

As for Luther himself? I actually haven't read much by him other than the 95 Theses, and that's ok, since most of what we call "Lutheranism" is more rightly called "Melanchthonism", as it's confessional documents were written by and apologised on behalf of by Phillip Melanchthon.

I think he was good in opposing that bastard Iohannes Tetzel, but that his movement ended in caesaropapism and the rise of the princes...well, that's unfortunate.

Overall, though, I find that he's an inevitability -- the princes would have jumped at anything to undermine the emperor, the papacy and the bishops who were appointed on behalf of the both of them.


Was Luther right? Who cares, when every one else (princes, popes and emperor alike) is clearly more-wrong.

>>606901
Because faith healing is outright bullshit, tbqh senpai. Not gonna argue there.

>>606303
He had no choice once the princes seized on him as a tool of legitimacy against their episcopal rivals.

>>606903
Same with Protestantism overall to varying degrees of course.

Some are less shittier than others

>>606312
>Weird, early lutherans liked the Greek Church a lot and provided it as a standard from which Rome deviated.

Yeah, but once they got to be pen pals with constantinople, the lutherans basically got called idiotic heretics.

>>606914
At this point, you are just (quite literally) shitposting.

>>606916
I thought it was that the Greek Church was so mortified by how heretical the Lutherans were that they pretended they never received the letters.

>>606923
I'm not.

After all it is an innovation to Christianity, not something that was there since the beginning.

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>>606896
Holy Scripture > former evangelical

>We can apply the same to those so called faith healers of the Protestants and all that speaking in tongues yada yada

No because Holy Scripture explicitly states that believers will speak in tongues (although not all of them will).

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

- Mark 16:17-18

>>606176

Aren't all organized religions kind of wrong? Jesus wasn't walking around and saying that people needed churches and to donate money to said church and that tithing physical money was one of the only ways to get to Heaven.

>>606925
They did correspond for a bit but when the Lutherans were being stubborn, the Greeks just pretended they didn't receive the reply of the Lutherans.

>protestants
>r
>o
>t
>e
>s
>t
>a
>n
>t
>s

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>>606936

>>606925
oh, that's how the greeks initially broached it. Eventually (iirc), some Lutherans got so persistent about it that they went to constantinople, got an audience with the big whigs of the orthodox church, and (after a lot of polite ignoring on behalf of the greeks) basically got BTFO and called heretics for their notions of how the sacrament works, how sola fide is incomplete, and how failing to invoke saints is utterly mortifying.

>>606932
The serpents are the Evangelical faith healers. They deceive people with some sophistry and trick. In the case of the Evangelical faith healers, it's basic psychology and stage hypnosis as Darren, the former Evangelicuck shows

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>>606942
What's with all the accusations, namefriend?

Are you a judge?

>>606932

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Daily reminder that protestants are incapable of quoting scripture.

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>>606957
Amen.

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>>606962
>

>>606953
It's not accusation. It's truth.

I can do the same while invoking the name of Allah or Muhammad in the streets using the same techniques Darren and the Evangelicals used in their so called faith healings.

If I were as skilled as Darren Brown, I could even make people speak in 'tongues' in Zeus' name

Only those who allow all walks of life, from rich to the poor and from straight to gay, may call themselves the true faith of Christ.

>>606962
Even better, Protestants are incapable of justifying their existence.

Especially when history shows how much of a foreign intrusion it is into Christianity.

>>606971
Your tipping is getting out of control, m8. I'm going to have to ask you to remove the fedora

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>>606971
No you cannot do the same because the Holy Spirit does not respond to pleas to moon demons or angry Arabs.

Why do you deny scripture?

>They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

- Mark 16:17-18

>they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

>they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

>they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

>>606966

Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

>>606977
>Especially when history shows how much of a foreign intrusion it is into Christianity.

All three branches of christianity are whores.

The papacy was severely tampered with by the emperor of the HRE...as in to the point that the emperor basically chose several popes.

The orthodoxy began using their secular emperor as a church head, inventing caeseropapism.

Protestantism is just orthodoxy's idiotic model coming west and being filtered through a germanic rather than grecian world view.

None of them are correct, all of them are corrupted whores.

>>606980
I'm not even fedora. The best part, he's only attacking the Evangelicals that do these kind of things.

Not every Prottie is stupid enough to fall for such bullshit even if they are blind to history.

>>606983
I can if I'm as skilled as Brown himself.

This is why I also hate Evangelicals the most. They are the ones with this ridiculous bullshit

>>606994

Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

>>606994
What about the Ante Nicene Church Fathers?

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

>>606995
>This is why I also hate..

Yep you need Jesus

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Why doesn't /his/ have a live mass on Sunday morning?

>>607006
that would seriously be cool. sign me up.

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>>606991
Preach it brother.

>>606995
>ridiculous bullshit

THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO MARK, CHAPTER SIXTEEN BEGINNING AT THE FOURTEENTH VERSE:

"THE GREAT COMMISSION"

Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

>they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

>they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

>they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

>they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

>>607002

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

>>607011

>they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

>>606998
I will agree with the fathers...hell, even the post-nicene fathers.

I'm not one of those protestants who bitches about "oh woe unto constantine" like a retard...no, the whoredom began after the fall of rome proper, and wasn't really felt until (at latest) after Otto I (in the west...I'm not studied enough on the greeks to give a timeline for thier whoredom).


But yeah, the fathers were 100% good imo. The whoredom of the churches comes in later when you understand the roots of where they derive authority from.

>>607005
Not all Christians are Evangelicals.

>>607011
Waah Waah, I hurt your fweelings :3

>>607026

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

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>>607023
THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO MARK CHAPTER SIXTEEN BEGINNING AT THE EIGHTEENTH VERSE:

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

>>607026
DYK that none of the Church Fathers advocated Sola Scriptura as Reformed scholar ANS Lane notes? >>606267

>>607032

Even the devil can quote scripture.

>>607032
Get away from me you creep

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>>607028
YOU KNOW WHOSE FEELINGS YOU SHOULD BE CARING ABOUT? JESUS' FEELINGS. YOU HURT JESUS' FEELINGS WHEN YOU SPREAD LIES THAT CONTRADICT HOLY SCRIPTURE.

>>607040
Please...go away you pervert.

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>>607037
And?

>>607039
Not until you explain why you deny holy scripture?

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>>607045
If you apologize to Jesus, maybe I'll think about it.

>>607047

Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

>>607047
I only deny the heretics who dare rearrange the mosaic that is Scripture...like the Protestants :)

>>607049
I'll file a lawsuit against you if you dare come any closer

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>>607051
AMEN.

>>607033
arguments over petty pieces of doctrine aren't my concern.

The actual foundations of "who is the root of authority" are more relevant, as it is in this office that petty matters of doctrine are decided.

The papacy, who is rome's authority, was adulterated by germanic kings and emperors.

The orthodoxy's source of authority was tranferred to a secular ruler.

Protestantism, although it claims to lay it's trust in "scripture alone", leaves the interpretation of that scripture to the church, who's authorities are (historically) appointed by the secular prince of whatever hellhole in the HRE you're standing in, and thus it's root authority is a secular leader.


so we have two caesaropapist traditions and one that's been corrupted by rubbing up against germanic barbarians too much.

Screw this or that doctrine, though: interpretation and issuance of doctrine lies with the authorities, so authority is a far more relevant thing to consider.

>>607031
because when every nigga running around has motes in their eyes, the world is yet blind.

And when the blind lead the blind, they both fall in a pit.

Now take your sacrosanct ass out of here.

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>>607056
There's no rearranging; it's literally right there in Mark's Gospel as I've quoted extensively at this point and you have yet to explain why you deny it.

>>607057

Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

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>>607070
HALLELUJAH

>>607066

And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight. Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

>>607067
How about you do as those verses stated then smartarse?

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>>607086
adsjdofgjakjngjnclvkadbflbsnfbnajdnbsjfbnskfnbskfnbskfbnsnadmfnaknvsdfbnkv kzv;fjfkznbzfbnkfbhz cvzfv.kzblkzbnjznv.zkfnkz.fbnz.kfmz lfb z;lfjbzfbnzfnbzbnzk.jfbnz.xb zdfbzlmbz/fz.nfb.jzkfhvkznfb.nfbz

>>607067

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

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>>607094
AMEN

>>607092

>he thinks he can into glossolalia

These men are full of new wine.

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>>607113
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

- Acts 2:14-21

>>607127

http://biblehub.com/kjv/1_corinthians/14.htm

1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Ryan Reeves videos are helpful in clearing up misconceptions about the reformation and Christianity in general.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrI5U0R293u9uveijefKyAA/videos

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>>607135
Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
- 1 Thessalonians 5:11

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>>607137
I encourage you to listen to Pastor Anderson because he is a great preacher and bible teacher.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDEBz25lGdY

Pastor Don Spears is another great man of God:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uiD6pA2VrY

>>606176
>Vandalism and defacing of Church property
i dunno OP wut u tink

>>607172
and I encourage you to stop spamming evangelical attention fags.

>>607237
Putting essays on doors was actually a common way to communicate ideas back then.

Luther was the Walter Sobchak of Christendom. He wasn't wrong, he was just an asshole.

>>606176
Yes because Catlicks need to realize that the Pope is blasphemy and no one but our LORD should be looked upon as righteous.

>>607172
but does he think /lgbt/ should be allowed as christians desu

>>606176
No, God isn't real

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>>607755
Homosexuality is a sin but those who suffer from from it may be saved provided they are repentant.

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Translating the Bible into the vernacular is a good idea on paper

But nowadays everyone and their mother has their own harebrained interpretation of the Bible.

Thanks, Martin.

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>>607821
Which is why being a part of a community of faithful believers is so important.

We need our brethren to help keep us on the straight and narrow.

>>607821
Vernacular translation existed before Luther.

Rigging the translations started with him though

>>607011
http://www.antiochian.org/morelli/the-ethos-of-orthodox-christian-healing

I think many people in the Dark Ages were simply brainwashed to think that the RC church was the ONLY church, therefore they had no other option but to stick with it and try to change it from within. Even Luther never wanted to leave it - he was forced to when they sought to kill him.

>>607814
but some Christians say it's okay desu

what about openly gay priests and lesbian bishops?

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>>607937
That is not okay because it directly contradicts Holy Scripture (Lev 18:22, Roman 1:27).

People who flaunt their sinful lifestyle should not hold positions of leadership in God's church.

>>607951
but they do and they follow the same bible so you must accept it. Jesus loves everyone.

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>>607957
I rebuke sinful behavior.

Jesus loves the sinner but hates the sin.

>>607951
I think if I talked to Peter Hitchens, he'd at least consider British Orthodox. The CoE is going downhill.

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>>607971
Mr. Hitchens is undoubtedly a considerate man so I'm sure he would but he's already saved regardless.

>>607980
He might be. How do you know his soul is in a state of grace, out of curiosity?

Anyway, his Church has lesbian priests.

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>>607988
I believe he believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who rose from the dead.

>>607965
bullet as a book marker. you're not a true christian if you believe in violence. Get out.

>>607988
>Anyway, his Church has lesbian priests.
>>607965
btfo

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>>608006
Jesus could be violent.

>>606654
>the Catholic church adopted the Apocrypha after the Reformation in order to differentiate themselves from Luther.
False. If so, the eastern, oriental and assyrian church would have not had deuterocanonicals.

>>608006
It's a little different when it's not considered a sin.

>>608000
Doesn't Satan also believe that?

>>608020
Jesus didn't necessarily hit anyone with the whip. In fact, it's doubtful he did, since the Gospels besides John didn't see fit to even mention the whip.

>>608289
Yeah, the Catholic Deutrocanon is actually the shortest of the any of the Apostolic Churches (longest is Ethiopian, with 81 books).

>>608298
> He didn't actually hit anyone, he only used it as a threat to force people to leave instead of just politely asking him.

The whole scene including flipping tables stands out and contrasts him from what he previously teaches. Jesus engulfing into a fit of rage isn't really Jesus-like.

>>607064
But we now know that Scripture Alone is false doctrine though

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>>608321
>But we now know that Scripture Alone is false doctrine though

>>608330
If scripture alone was the only way how did the Christians manage to figure out was cannon before the bible was made?

>>608334
Guidance by the Holy Spirit.

>>608308
Jesus gets angry several times at the Pharisees.

What Jesus did wasn't some random fit of rage, it was driving the merchants out of the Temple, an icon of His Body, something that fulfills the old covenants words about removing the Canaanites from Israel ("Canaanite" was basically what Jews called people for a putdown like people would later use the term "Jew"--a Canaanite was a way of calling someone a greedy merchant or usurer or money changers)

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>>608330

>>608347
The Protestant canon is Wrong following this logic

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>>608334

The Emperor issued orders that certain books were to be made canon and others not.

All praise to the Emperor!

>>608363
Not everyone involved was being guided. Some of them were still under the influence of pagan goddesses and demons. It didn't reach its mature form until all demonic influence was excised.

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>>608379
So how do you know the Protshits got it right when most lists of the canons we have include the books they ditched?

>>608382
Erasmus recovered the true text of God's Word so, as a result, Luther bought countless sinners to the Lord Jesus Christ.

>>608382
Most canons are incorrect. The path to heaven is narrow.

>>608416
You realize Erasmus denounced Protestantism?

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>>608445
This doesn't establish the Protestant canon as correct. The problem still stands

>>608416
Erasmus disagreed with sola Fide. He probably accepted the deuterocanons too

Erasmus cited from Sirach in his debate with Luther

Thanks to the Reformers, the time was right for the unadulterated Word to be available to those predestined of God to share in life everlasting (the ones Jesus died to save, not merely redeem).

God used Luther and others in similar positions to begin the process of moving the Word of God forward toward the complete, finished work that we have today in the KJB.

>>608514
KJB is fairly regarded by Orthodox Christians, it's not at all a particularly Protestant translation. In fact, the Orthodox NT would probably be more agreeable to most Protestant theology than the King James would, since the King James translations episkopos as "bishop", whereas the Orthodox NT uses "overseer".

>>608514
God is just playing with his toys. He's also angry at them and decides to beat his own son up to vent his anger and so that he can forgive his toys who are the whole time, he was intentionally controlling them. You worship a psychopath

>>608555
God forgives through Christ, but he could forgive before Christ's birth, and Christ's death has nothing to do with taking your place for punishment (or else it wouldn't technically be "forgiveness", would it?)

>>608006

Why shouldn't lesbians be allowed to be priests? Why is allowing only straight men to be priests a tradition worth maintaining?

>>608556
I'm just demonstrating the absurdity of Calvinism and to a lesser extent, the rest of Protestantism

>>606488
you don't. the list of canonical books wasn't codified until the 4th century. it's a very late and artificial attempt to manufacture a canon and to stop the endless addition of new gospels, acts of the apostles etc, so they just said fuck it, everything that's not on this list is apocryphal. the list as we know it first appears in a festal letter by athanasius of alexandria

>>608559
Q1a: Concerning women being barred from the clergy.

A1a: Our Mother is Mary (the Church is the Body of Christ, of whom she is the Mother), Our Father is God. A priest, being called "Father", is an appointed representative of God's paternal function, taking Confession (see A6 of the Protestant FAQ) and intoning the Gospel and performing the other Sacraments. God as Our Father is figurative, as God is beyond being male or female, but at the same time it is important to make a distinction between God and Mary. Since the priest is not a representative of Mary's maternal function, having a priest as Mother would be inappropriate.

Secondly, being a practicing lesbian, as if there is nothing wrong with it, and having a live in partner, is not acceptable for obvious reasons.

File: charlemagne.jpg (480KB, 1517x2048px) Image search: [Google]

480KB, 1517x2048px

It's very easy to dismiss Protestantism.

God does not contradict Himself.
If God wanted to accomplish a Reformation on the scale that the so-called Reformers wished to accomplish, He would have sent ONE preacher and endowed that preacher with the power to work miracles in order to prove his authority.

It turned out that the Protestant Reformers had no authority from God whatsoever, and this is easily proven by the fact that they contradicted and argued among themselves, leading to them to divide into countless sects and constantly invent new opinions, and that no miracles followed their works.

Protestants brought with them the spirit of division, not unity; and the spirit of division is the spirit of the devil, the word devil coming from the Greek diabolos, which means division.

Protestantism is so obviously false that I can't understand why honest men sincerely hold to it. I can only think that it's because they grew up in a Protestant sect and had their minds filled with emotional anti-Catholic calumnies at an early age, "Whore of Babylon", "pagan", "Antichrist", etc.

Another great proof is how barren the Protestant religion itself is. It is so empty.

>>606266
This is a disgraceful slander against the Catholic Church. Not even Catholics would slander the Orthodox in this way. Of course the early Christians would feel at home in good Catholic or Orthodox churches because they both preserve the essentials such as the sacraments, the priesthood, the liturgy, the devotion to Mary and the saints, etc.; they would just wonder why the Orthodox lacked unity with Rome which was the apostolic tradition.

>>608585
It isn't barren. It's filled with concert worship and people rolling all over the floor and snake handling.

>>608591
Do you think they love Novus Cuckdo mass?

>>608585
Another proof is the Protestant Reformers themselves. They weren't saints. They weren't even remotely holy. Martin Luther was a reprobate. When has God ever used reprobates as his messengers?

>>608597
Obviously not those that are offered by evil priests that practically commit open sacrilege. The Novus Ordo celebrated reverently, however, I think they would recognise.

>>608591
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHZtbnaXuGk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxcOv4zPoVo

>>608601
I hate the Novus Ordo. It was big mistake

>>608601
>they'd feel comfortable with modernist organ and guitar music
Nah

>>608607
Even Tridentine Mass was a big mistake. Novus Order was JUST

>>608585
That works both ways. If Catholicism had authority from God, they wouldn't have gotten their shit kicked in during the 30 year war.

>>608598
Jesus said to the Pharisees “your tradition makes the word of God ineffectual” (Mark 7:13). Many traditions of catholicism fall into the same category that Jesus condemned: they are basically “traditions of men” that serve to detract from the power of the Word of God.

and evidently Jesus believed in Sola Scriptura, which can be clearly seen in his denunciation of the Pharisees for their traditions which made the word null and void! Think about it!

>>608614
Jesus was not sola scriptura, Jesus was not a Sadducee.

>>608603
>>608608

This a highly unfair comparison. You are comparing the very best of Orthodox celebration with among the worst of Catholic celebration, in a time when, admittedly, great liturgical decadence has seeped into the Catholic Church.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2qcFQflYmk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6AOvStZS64

>>608611
>Even Tridentine Mass was a big mistake.

baka

>>608607
Yeah.

>>608614
>his denunciation of the Pharisees for their traditions which made the word null and void!
He denounced the Pharisees for being hypocrites, not for their traditions, which he said were orthodox (Matthew 23:1-3). Christ was an orthodox Essene

>>608613
That's not a good analogy. God's people can lose wars.
God's people do not divide up the Church and preach false doctrine, however.

>>608614
>they are basically “traditions of men” that serve to detract from the power of the Word of God.

Name a single Catholic tradition that detracts from the Word of God

>>608625
Christ was not an Essene. It's ridiculous to limit the Messiah of the Jews that they had waited for since Abraham to a single sect that only lasted a few centuries.

>The external cause of attention was the bias of English deists and Continental Rationalists who strove to metamorphize the Essenes into predecessors from whom gradually and quite naturally Christians developed; and Freemasons pretended to find in Essenism pure Christianity. In reference to such chimeras it is enough to say that between Essenism and Christianity there are some points of resemblance; it could not very well be otherwise because Essenism was Judaic in its foundation and Christianity was not destructive but progressive. On the other hand, the differences are fundamental. That John the Baptist and Christ were Essenes are mere assumptions based on similarities which spring naturally and independently from asceticism and voluntary poverty. So likewise the vaunted dependence between Essenism and monasticism can be resolved into necessary traits of any ascetic, communistic life (see "Wuku" in "Studien u. Mittheilungen d. Ben. Cist. ordens", 1890, I 223-30; Berlière in "Revue Bénéd", 1891, VIII, 12-190). "The attitude of Jesus and his disciples is altogether anti-Essenic" (Jewish Encyc.).

>>608623
>baka
It's modernist.

>>608639
How is the Tridentine Mass modernist?

>>608628
Where is Christ among all those statues in your temple?. On that cross, still dead.

Your beloved apocrypha certainly was never recognized by the Jews as part of the Old testament canon

The RC sacrifice of the mass (a continuing sacrifice for what’s already been completed) is an affront to God for the completed work of Calvary

>>608614
>>608356

>>608611
Western Orthodox liturgy is the Tridentine mass revised

>>608642
The Wisdom of Solomon is heavily alluded to in the NT, the Wisdom of God seen as synonymous with the Word of God.

>he Wisdom of Solomon talks about the Wisdom of God in this sense. (“And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself, she maketh all things new: and in all ages entering into holy souls, she maketh them friends of God, and prophets.”, Wisdom of Solomon 7:27, KJV; “And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. “, Revelations 21:5; “For she is the brightness of the everlasting light, the unspotted mirror of the power of God, and the image of his goodness.”, Wisdom of Solomon 7:26; “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high”, Hebrews 1:3; “For she is more beautiful than the sun, and above all the order of stars: being compared with the light, she is found before it.”, Wisdom of Solomon 7:29; “Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.”, Hebrews 1:4; )

Also, see "Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled." - Proverbs 9:5

>>608642
>Where is Christ among all those statues in your temple?

Those statues are of Christ, the angels, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the saints, i.e. they represent God, or those who have been sanctified by God. This representation of holy persons was used by the ancient Christians, and it was even used by the Jews. The Jews had statues of angels built on top of the Ark of the Covenant, at the express order of God. These holy images raise our minds to God.
Study the Iconoclast heresy.

>Your beloved apocrypha certainly was never recognized by the Jews as part of the Old testament canon

The Jews don't accept the New Testament canon either. So should we throw out the New Testament on the grounds that the Jews don't accept it?
It's not the Jews that have authority, it is the Church of Christ.

>The RC sacrifice of the mass (a continuing sacrifice for what’s already been completed) is an affront to God for the completed work of Calvary

The Mass makes us mystically present at Christ's one and only sacrifice. It also allows us to share in His body, blood, soul & divinity as the apostles did at the Last Supper. This is ancient apostolic tradition. Your idea that the Eucharist is just a symbol was virtually unheard of until the Reformation.

>>608642
It was. The Alexandrian Jews included it in their Septuagint. And there's no such thing as a closed canon amongst the Jews as McDonald notes. Also, the whole council of Jamnia is considered as bullcrap by the scholarly community

>>608574

>Since the priest is not a representative of Mary's maternal function, having a priest as Mother would be inappropriate.

...so the only reason (other than tradition) women are barred from the priesthood is because using the term "Mother" for them would cause confusion with Mary? That sounds more like an excuse than a reason. If that's really such a concern then why not just use "father" regardless of the priest's gender?

>Secondly, being a practicing lesbian, as if there is nothing wrong with it, and having a live in partner, is not acceptable for obvious reasons.

The live in partner would only be an issue with Catholicism because they have celibate clergy, but I don't see why the Orthodox church should regard homosexuality as a worse sin than any other. The fact that certain Orthodox patriarchates are more comfortable letting their priests advocate ethnic cleansing than being homosexual says something to me about skewed priorities.

>>608655
The bible is complete, authoritative and true. The roman catholic church has made it’s traditions superior in authority to the bible. The result is that many roman catholic practices are in fact contradictory to the bible. These include prayer to saints/Mary, immaculate conseption, transubstantiation, indulgences and papal authority to name only a few.

>>608640
Mainly, not in itself, but as a culmination of all the modernism that had been slowly incorporated over the periods prior and making them uniform, such as modernist music and worshiping sitting down. I also think, while it wasn't technically modernist, "Low Mass" was a predecessor of modernist worship.

>>608559
It's because it's unnatural. It's simply unnatural for women to do what the priest does. The priest acts in the person of Christ as the mediator between God and man, he acts as a teacher and as a father to the congregation. Not even the Blessed Virgin Mary took on the role of the priesthood, and every Christian acknowledges that she is the holiest of saints and above them all in dignity. Still, she was a woman and did not usurp the role of a man to be priest and father. St. Paul said it was a shame for a woman to have her head uncovered or speak in Church, nevermind act as a priest.

Christ had women disciples but all of His apostles were men. It's always been the tradition of the Church that only men can be ordained. I'm not even sure if a woman's soul can be a valid recipient of the sacrament of Holy Orders even theoretically.