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>Holy >Roman >Empire

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>Holy
>Roman
>Empire
>>
Why was it not an empire? What is your criteria for defining an 'empire'?
>>
>>59796
We've already had like 10 threads on the subject with the consensus being that it was all three of those things.
>>
>>59796
overused meme
>>
Its direct connection to the Catholic Church should qualify as Holy.
Roman in tradition.
A varying empire, at times simply the domains of the most powerful/a very powerful prince, at other times centrally powerful enough to be considered an empire.

Voltaire was justified in his criticism, but in considering the Holy Roman Empire's collective history, it fulfilled all criteria of being a Holy Roman Empire at certain points.
>>
Voltair's quote in use is anachronistic as it only applies to the late HRE which was non of those things at all.

But I disagree slightly since religious wars with the pope isn't exactly 'holy and it was Roman only in name, not in essence.
>>
>>59796
>What is your criteria for defining an 'empire'?
Vast territory, expansionism, territorial integrity.

>>59825
Karl pls go.

>>59856
>Roman in tradition
Literally a meme.
It was mostly consisting of Germanics, and it was as related to the ancient Rome as any other European kingdom raised by barbarians.

>Connections to Church qualify it as Holy
How can state be "holy" in the first place? Even Papal State didn't use this adjective.
>>
>>59931
Wasn't the HRE's particular estate/electoral structure intended to mimic the senate in some manner? I thought it was slightly more than just a name.
>>
>>59951
>Vast territory, expansionism, territorial integrity

So it was an empire.
>>
>>59796
19th century meme
How original
>>
>>59951
>Vast territory
It had this.
>expansionism
Had this too, especially gained through marriages.
>territorial integrity.
Had this about as ephemerally as any European empire of the time would have.
>>
Nice meme, did your e-friend Juan Verde taught it to you?
>>
>>59951
>How can state be "holy" in the first place?
If you consider its initial purpose and the meaning of that word, very simply to be honest.
>>
>>60000
Nice get, but didn't the emperor have trouble controlling the territories he had? I though an emperor was supposed to have absolute control on what he has.
>>
>>59951
>How can a state be holy
By being founded on theology as opposed to secularism, I suppose.

>>60066
Varying levels of decentralization and autonomy doesn't make something not an empire.
>>
>>60066
There may have been some instability, but that does not necessarily mean that it is solely up to the emporer to fix it. He could delegate peace keeping to lower ranked people. I believe Rome did this.
>>
>>60066
Variable.
Particular emperors wielded direct control over relatively huge portions of Europe.
Other emperors were essentially just princes of territories about the size of other princes.

In the latter case, French and English kings are far more powerful with greater integrity to their territorial control.

What Maximilian set up for Charles V, and what he then split between Ferdinand and Philip, were easily the last, large-scale domains of the HRE.
>>
I'm to lazy to call argue with you so I'm going to let others disprove you for the billionth time and settle for calling you a faggot

faggot
>>
>>59988
>>60000
It didn't have the first two nearly on the level of the other known empires, that is. Over the course of history it lost most of its western and southern lands, while only gaining some territory they reclaimed from Polabian Slavs in the east. Overally, it was just slightly bigger than modern day Germany most of time.

As for integrity - even by Medieval standards, it was very divided internally, especially when compared to England or France for example. And it remained in this state long after reinesscance.

Also, nice quads, but they prove nothing.
>>
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>>60158
>It didn't have the first two nearly on the level of the other known empires
>>
>>60084
>By being founded on theology as opposed to secularism
That's 90% of medieval kingdoms for you.

>>60186
Can you see that black line saying "borders of the HRE"?
>>
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>>60186
>tfw american and living in ex-Imperial land
Feels fucking gr8 man
>>
>empire

It was more like a federation tbph
>>
>>59825
>fucks with the pope on the reg and sometimes outright invaded it
>Holy
>Bunch of krauts, lombards, and western slavs
>Roman
>loose highly decentralized confederation of petty kings
>Empire
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>>60158
seeing as how the crown almost became de facto hereditary Habsburgian, I'd say the expansion of HRE should include Habsburg gains in the Balkans, which were by no means small.
>>
>>59951
It had all of those when it was part of the spanish empire
>>
>>60558
>I'd say the expansion of HRE should include Habsburg gains in the Balkans, which were by no means small.
Literally Croatia.

They were small by all means.
>>
>>60776
>Literally Croatia.

Or, you know, literally Croatia, Hungary, Transylvania, Slovakia and parts of Serbia.
And that's just the Balkans, not even mentioning Habsburg expansion in North Italy.
>>
>>60939
You don't even know what the balkans are you dumb retard.
>>
>>60939
>hungary
>slovakia
>balkans
haha
>>
>>60996
>muh semantics
>muh geographical delimitations

You know what I fucking mean

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwDrHqNZ9lo
>>
>>60558
>expansion of HRE should include Habsburg gains in the Balkans, which were by no means small
"Holy" "Roman" "Empire" =/= Austrian Empire
Period.
>>
>>61048
>muh semantics
They're not semantics, what the fuck is wrong with people like you? Semantics is a new buzzword by now.

also this >>61052
>>
>>60939

not really no, habsburgs held banovina, some slavonia, a little bit of istra, but thats it, hungary actualy controlled these parts more than austria, and the border only retracted towards viena up untill 1690 when we finaly kicked the turks across drina

later on, in the 1700/800eds austria got around to actualy taking bosna part by part, realy small parts, the locals did more to liberate themselves on and off, and when napoleon took down venice and then lost the war, austria took those parts over too

but all that was way way later, and HRE didnt even exist anymore
>>
>>59951
>How can state be "holy" in the first place? Even Papal State didn't use this adjective.
did they not call it the holy see?
>>
the people confusing austro-hungarian empire for habsburg hre need to stop

hre ended with napoopan
it had its up and downs, but only really the austrian territories of the austro-hungarian empire, otherwise the two are officially different entities.
>>
>>61119
>up untill 1690 when we finaly kicked the turks across drina
>later on, in the 1700/800eds austria got around to actualy taking bosna part by part, realy small parts
Bosnia was a part of the Ottoman empire up until the Congress of Berlin in 1878, Drina is the river on the Bosnian-Serb border, so you're wrong on both parts
>>
>>61119
>hungary actually controlled these parts

>Maria Theresa, by the Grace of God, Dowager Empress of the Romans, Queen of Hungary, of Bohemia, of Dalmatia, of Croatia, of Slavonia, of Galicia, of Lodomeria, etc.; Archduchess of Austria...

oh...
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