accoplishments of socialism

Socialism was complete and utter garbage. Fun fact: Life for Somalians actually improved under anarchy than during its socialist regime.

Yes. Socialism is THAT fucking shit.

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the creation of the Soviet Union
>inb4 butthurt americans

>>5775
Citation please. Also virtually every functioning country today is socialist to some extent.

>>5775
anarchy is the goal of socialism retard

>>5870
>>5873

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0147596707000741

Leftists on suicide watch.

>>5873
Socialists keep saying that shit, but how does it make any sense?
>Guys, if we just keep adding more government and give it more control, we'll eventually need no more government for reasons

How can an ideology that is literally opposed to anarchy, have anarchy as its goal?

>>6021
>>5930
americans detected

>>5930
as i said before you neglected to read my post anarchy IS THE GOAL OF SOCIALISM and i would add that communist anarchy is the best way to live

>>5710
The holdomor
The purges
The great leap
Sj.ws

>>6053
>Communist anarchy

If anyone is forced to participate in the system, it is not an anarchy. If everyone is free to do with his body and property as he wants, which includes freely sharing it with others if he likes to do so, that is not communism

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>>6053
>and i would add that communist anarchy is the best way to live

Catalonia of course, although that's 1936.

>>6045

Do all socialists make petty strawmen like you do?

>>6021
It's because without the government to hold power as a representative of the people, someone else will take control.

>>5710
>.....
uuuhhh
First man to space I guess

cuba is still together after loseing all of its trade and suffering under an embargo from the US for more then half a century. thats impressive

>Purges
>Holdomor
>Cultural Revolution
>Berlin Wall
>Invasion of Afghanistan

>>6118
Communism just means workers own the means of production.

The destruction of civilisation as a whole and the initiation of a descent into barbarism.

Also fuck off to /pol/ this is a history board.

>>6225
america is socialist right now....but you unneducated subhumans believe it's communism

>>6233
>without the government to hold power

And if you have a government that holds power, that is literally the opposite of anarchy

>>6236
USSR got pretty much all of the space firsts except moon landing and reusable orbiters.

>>6267
this

even worse when you have the retarded communist version of them trying to think they'll be buddies

>>6267
That actually isn't the goal of socialism/communism though.

>>6285
Right, the problem is that people have begun trying to create a Communist society without figuring out how to transition from "dictatorship of the proletariat" (which is supposed to be temporary) into Communist anarchy.

compare chile to venezuela. one has food shortages in the 21st fucking century and one has a western standard of living. Wonder which one is socialist and which is capitalist hmmmmmm

You all don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Socialism is an economic system where the workers own the means of production.
Communism is a socialist stateless society, that is, the state doesn't exist, so you could say it's an "anarchy" as in rules without rulers (it doesn't mean chaos, you dumb fucks).

Anarchism is attempting to achieve a stateless society (communism) through stateless means.
Marxism-Leninism (known as Communism for you americans) is attempting to achieve a stateless society (communism) through statist means (vanguard state).

This is interesting. All the leftists and /pol/tards have all arrived on scene to try and win over as many people as they can and take over the board.

I say let the Commies win, anything is better than a repeat of /pol/ or /int/.

>>6430
Yeah, lets totally not tell all of them to fuck off

Go back to lefty/pol/

>leftypol already brigading this board hard

The fight has begun.

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>>6267
>Also fuck off to /pol/ this is a history board.

How isn't communism part of history?

>>6423
>Socialism is an economic system where the workers own the means of production

What does that even mean? If I buy a printing press, doesn't it belong to me?
And if I pay a guy to work on my printing press, how does that make it his property? Because if I pay a plumber to fix my toilet, it doesn't mean he suddenly owns my bathroom

>>6455
OP is asking for historical discussion, it's on-topic. It's just you getting buttblasted at people attempting to use your hugbox for actual discussion of differing ideologies.

>>6479
hopefully /hist/ doesn't become /pol/ 2.0 or leftypol 2.0.....i'd like to discuss both things desu

>>6504
You just advocated for a Communist hugbox

Holy shit did you even read with what you said?

>>6498
I would assume it means that workers make all the decisions with regards to how a company is run, rather than having one person or a small group of people making all the decisions.

>>5870
Just as it is capitalist to some extend.

People forget that both systems have their inherent flaws.

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>he thinks the holodomer is real

Pressure from a viable socialist alternative forced the Western capitalist powers to make concessions to labor that created the middle class living standard of the post-WWII years which is slowly crumbling today as the capitalists have gotten complacent in the post-Soviet world.

>>6498

according to socialist you should literally have to give up your printing presses to your employees for free. That's how dumb they actually are.

>>6540
You can do that in a "capitalist" system though. Nothing makes it illegal for you to create a company and share all your power and money with all the workers

>>6504
Fuck off leftist shill

>>6498
>If I buy a printing press, doesn't it belong to me?
If you are the one using it (personal property), then yes.
If you're not using it at all (private property), then no.
But you don't buy means of production in a communist society since they're public so the question doesn't make sense.

American socialist music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWTXyO2MOlQ

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>>6547
>capitalism has inherint flaws
ill say

>>6622
/his/ will become the left-wing version of /pol/. it must be so. i look forward to our new board comrades.

>>6537
How in the fuck am I doing so? Are you handicapped?

>>6622
Stop crying already.

>>6636
>But you don't buy means of production in a communist society since they're public

So what you're saying is that workers don't actually own shit in your perfect world. Everything belongs to "the public"
Except for your iphone of course, that is somehow different

>>6622
>>6670
reeeee no, i want to discuss about capitalism and communism here without gettin raid

>>6691
>I say let the Commies win, anything is better than a repeat of /pol/ or /int/.
>I say let the Commies win

>>6636

>personal and private property distinction

gtfo of here with your occupy wall street made up bullshit

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/his/ - Historical Materialism

>>6606
It's more that you'd have to give rights to your printing press as part of an employment contract. Like you can buy a printing press and do whatever you want with it, but if you want someone else to help you use it, instead of paying them wages you give them a partial share in the business and you split the profits.

>>6619
Yes but in a capitalist system workers don't have the power to make that happen. It benefits the business owners to keep power in their own hands so they're not just going to let workers make the decisions.

>>6644
https://youtu.be/eUifliF0rBU this too

>>6718
do you honestly think that could happen anywhere on 4chan? everything is so black and white on the internet, doubly so on 4chan

>>6645
>source: leftypol
Fuck off white guilt faggot

>>6644
https://youtu.be/5iAIM02kv0g?list=RDeUifliF0rBU

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You might want to check out this documentary of Anarcho-syndicalist Spain in 1936. It's pretty good, I'd say it's the closest we've ever been to actual communism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPl_Y3Qdb7Y

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>>6645
porkies will ignore this

>>6740

if it's part of a contract that we both agree to that's fine but you are after a complete communist system where the contract would be pointless since the state is going to give up the private use of my property whether I like it or not

>>6721
That wasn't me you stupid retard.

>>6833
i posted something related in /pol/, and they called me KIKE shill LOL

>>6740
>but if you want someone else to help you use it, instead of paying them wages you give them a partial share in the business and you split the profits.

So you want to take away any incentives from opening a business and go back to the medieval system of individual craftsmen doing their trade?

Russia was lifted from feudalism to a world power in 20 years thanks to socialism. I'd say that's a good thing.

>>6797
all of these are well documented and almost all are acknowledged by the aggressor country

>>6726
>occupy wall street made up bullshit
It's been part of capitalist critique and the relationship between the means of production for fucking decades. Fuck off, this board is for people who actually read.

>>6644
>>6755
>>6805

Sanders should play these and similar as part of his campaign
Utah phillips is breddy good 5/5

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>>6881

State socialism is just capitalism where the people with all the guns also have a monopoly on everything else. Stalin forced workers off their own farms, separating labor and means of production in the name of the proletariat.

Tanc bastardo.

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>>6797
>>6721
>>6940
/hist/ will not be a right wing echochamber neither a left one, now go back to >>>/pol/ plz

>>6850
Ok man
>It's just you getting buttblasted at people attempting to use your hugbox for actual discussion of differing ideologies.
>Complaining about lefty/pol/ shitting up the board than /pol/ in this thread makes the place a hugbox

Literally the entire thread is just the same fucking shit with /pol/ and infographs and youtube videos

>>>/pol/

>>6703
>everything
Shit != Means of production
A toothbrush or a condom isn't a mean of production. It's fucking yours.
Means of production are a different beast because they're what's used to run the economy.

>>6881
Yeah, however it's really fallen behind. Stalin did a good job of rapidly industrializing (at great cost) but his successors didn't do a good job of keeping up. I've heard that by the eighties or so Russian goods were actually worth LESS than the raw materials used to make them.

>>6906

no it's a cop out commies use to justify their luxurious capitalist goods that they can't live without. throw your computer out the window comrade, show these capitalist dogs you don't need them!

>>6984
Yeah , and I dont want a left wing echo chamber

Go back to lefty/pol/, this board doesnt want either of you

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The Labour government of 1945-1951 was the most sussesful government of the United Kingdom in the 20th century, with only the Liberal governments at the turn of the century coming close.

The Attlee ministry provided the period of highest economic growth, lowest unemployment, and highest standard of living in British history, at the same time as the abandonment of India and mjxh of the Empire. As well as setting the foundation of the welfare state which is so taken for granted to day, establishing the National health service, as bringing multiple key industries into public ownership including the creation of British Rail.

Not to mention the success on the homefront in WWII comes not just from Churchill's charisma, but from the Labour party too, Clement Attlee of the Labour Party was crested as the first deputy Prime Minister to run the homefront while Churchill and the Conservatives ran the war.

It's a shame what both the Labour party and socialism have become, that the two are now almost inseparable from internationalism and the issue of mass migration, the idea of socialism in one country dead in the water, and the economic policy forever tied to the left wing of social policies

>>6984
Tell that to the stormfags, they get assblasted the moment someone mentions leftism, and OP is completely on-topic.

my main criticism of marx is that he used confusing terminology
like how is the layman not going to confuse "private property" with "personal property"

>>7070
Marx never wrote for the common person anyway

>>7046
Socialist internationalism =/= Mass migration under capitalism

Please read more.

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In my opinion you can't say that you understand history completely without having read works like Capital or The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon. The way Marx analyzes and dissects history is absolutely brilliant.

>>7046
> that the two are now almost inseparable from internationalism and the issue of mass migration

Might as well go back to /pol/ with your
>MUH NATIONAL PURITY WE MUST ABANDON ALL CONTACT WITH THE WORLD

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>>7107
>marx never wrote for the common person anyways
the communist manifesto can be read in half an hour and multilingual terminology was common in the day

>>7107
That's not true, Das Kapital is much more enjoyable and easy to read than most others economics books.

>>7167
Its really ironic about /his/ complaining a legitimate historical post being /pol/ tier

lmao

>>7122
>>7046

>Socialist internationalism =/= Mass migration under capitalism

Sorry for my poor phrasing, what I meant to put across that today parties on the left of Politics generally are in support of migration, yes there are exceptions but on the whole the two are generally linked, came across incorrectly as I was stating my disapproval of both internationalism and mass migrationary politics, not that the two are a single issue

>>7230
we all know if its any left of hitler its sjwism and evil

>>7253
And what exactly about migration is so bad, mister nationalsocialist?

>>7276
we all know if its any right of Stalin its fascism and evil

>>>/pol/

>>6021
The word "socialist" has a lot of meanings, unfortunately.

Marxists call themselves socialists and mean that they want a revolution ending in a vanguard state which will redistribute everything equally, alter society so that people are raised and conditioned to share fairly, and then dissolve.

Democratic socialists call themselves socialists and mean that they want a revolution (or a very strong shift via democratic means) resulting in a democratic (in a more genuine sense than most democracies are today) state that is generally socialist in the sense you think of it.

Anarchists want to abolish the state at the same time as bringing about a situation in which the workers control the means of production. Tactics for this vary, but mostly involve supporting those who are being oppressed by their governments in their struggles, creating alternative ways of doing things, and attempting to make the state redundant using so that it can be safely done away with.

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>>7299
in yurop the history is repeating, if you know what i mean

>>6970
Found the anarchist.

>>7317
why are you so mad?

>>7317
>implying that /pol/ doesn't chimp out when communism is mentioned there

>>7253
That's because "today parties on the left of Politics" aren't leftists; they're socialdemocrats aka hippie capitalists who want walfare. Radical leftists are more rare every day, but if you ask any of them they'll tell you they don't agree with mass migratory politics in the current world because they reduce wages, generate tensions between the working class and only benefit the bourgeoisie. You never see factory owners complaining about mass immigration, do you?

>>7299
what actual benefit does mass migration have to a socialist nation?

>>7352
Tired of /pol/ being here and lefty/pol/ acting like friends and shit because I dont want them, neither them

>>7360
Too bad, go whine your political garbage

>>7349
Hi!

>>7383
How does it hurt socialism if workers freely move?

>>7383
You still didn't answer the question.

>>7383
you need to escape the idea of benefits for the nation and insitsid start thinking of benefits for the people of the world.
immigration doesn't necessarily help a nation 100% of the time but it does help people 100% of the time

>>7380
Alterglobalism is a thing too. It's not just pro-globalism or anti-globalism. But it's true that there are too many people who support open borders in conjunction with "limited capitalism" instead of just no capitalism.

>>7464
why should i give a fuck about "people of the world"

>>7417
too bad mate, this is very history related and you shouldn't be surprised about arguments that happen on a bored dedicated to the things that happend and their effects

>>7167
>>7299

That's not the case, I detest /pol/ as much as the next man, I'm in favour of controlled and regulated migration, caps and a points system for those in search of work and employment, exceptions for those with a large enough income and savings to support themselves already. Most importantly no longer settling all prospective migrants into single areas like the mistake of the post WWII-era, the reason such a stigma exists on migration today is that those entering the country were allowed to settle in a single area, father then integrating into preexisting societies, they simply recreated their own in certain areas of the country, where migration is highest to this day

Yes I have a slight nationalist streak but my main objection to mass migration is on an economic level, in the United Kingdom at least the current level is unsustainable, public services are already buckling under their own weight and their is h serious housing crisis, yes those arriving may live a better life, but on a wbole whole conditions are worsening bringing everyone slowly down, as much as some would detest, help others where you can, but your own should come first, others shouldn't be helped at the detriment of your own people, whoever they may be

>>7509
Why should you give a f*ck about anyone other than yourself?

>>7509
because comradery, and the motto is workers of the WORLD unite

>>7464

>you need to escape the idea of benefits for the nation and insitsid start thinking of benefits for the people of the world

This is true.

>but it does help people 100% of the time

This is complete nonsense. Converting the first world into the third world is just fucking everyone over.

>>7509
Because we live in a global village!

Swedish healthcare, for example, is a human right. Anyone from Iraq or Somalia is welcome to come here and enjoy it. If the money runs out we can always just borrow more.

its the religion with the biggest death toll

>>7603
those somalians and arabs just commite crimes in sweden, see malmo

>>6417
Chile's president is a member of the socialist party.

>>7536
>father then integrating into preexisting societies, they simply recreated their own in certain areas of the country, where migration is highest to this day

Which wouldn't be an issue if you stopped thinking in arbitrary categories like nationality or ethnicity, and just simply saw people as people, workers as workers.

>in the United Kingdom at least the current level is unsustainable, public services are already buckling under their own weight

Then the state should put more money into them. Simple as that and it's good for the economy too

>help others where you can, but your own should come first, others shouldn't be helped at the detriment of your own people, whoever they may be
"Your own people"? Who might those be? Whatever the capitalist in charge tells you?

>>7583
restricting people to working in one area is bourgeois

>>7638
i hate when right wing nuts defend a dictator such as pinochet

>>6118
Do you even know what communism means?

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>lefties have to run off to this board because they know they'd get BTFO on /pol/

>>7647
>"Your own people"? Who might those be? Whatever the capitalist in charge tells you?
"I want black men to breed my gf"
T - you

>>7710
BTFO in the sense at being spammed with meme pictures until you give up, yes. No point in trying to argue with retards.

>>7657

I don't know what the hell you're trying to say here, but with automation eating up low-skill jobs and millions of low-skill laborers flooding in you've got a perfect recipe for disaster. That's not even mentioning crime, ethnic tension, and strained welfare resources. Mass immigration fixes nothing.

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>>7710
>avoiding a toxic hivemind of natsocs in favor of an environment more conducive to discussion is running off

>>7763
>this butthurt
Don't worry, you'll be able to afford pork one day

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>>7775
>toxic

>>7763
>>7775
not him, but /pol/ before having national flags you were able to discuss anything

>>7769
Nice prejudices you got there

Yeah, all those foreigners just cause crime and go on welfare.

>>7775
>I want a leftist (Sjw) echo chamber

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>>7720
>implying youre so inadiqute that your gf will hook up with a person who barely speaks the native language and has a big dick because shes so unsatisfied

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>>7769
Trumpfags are coming here
>>7845
SPOOKY SCARY SKELETON's is a capitalistic thing LOL

>>7789
Wtf is that even supposed to mean?

>>7814
What /pol/ was like back in the "good old days" is totally irrelevant. That board doesn't exist any more, if it ever did.

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>>7710

>>7845
once again /pol/ confuses an on topic thread for sjwism

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>>7775
>toxic

>>7845
I'd like a place where you can discuss both rightist and leftist ideologies without people chimping out. Is it too much to ask?

>>7845
>an environment conducive to discussion is an echo chamber
Says the guy who's complaining that people don't want to hang out in his right-wing echo chamber.

>>7845
>single thread about leftist history
>THE KIKES WANT TO TURN MY BOARD INTO A MARXIST HUGBOX!!!
Fucing schizophrenic.

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>>7647
>Which wouldn't be an issue if you stopped thinking in arbitrary categories like nationality or ethnicity, and just simply saw people as people, workers as workers.

In the current state of things that won't change, as long as nations exist, nationalities will exist, language barriers, culture differences, as much as a unified world is a wonderful concept, it isn't there, the workers are not yet united intentionally, if anything the first step should be uniting them within their nations as a stepping stone

>Then the state should put more money into them. Simple as that and it's good for the economy too

That is true, but there is not the money or resources available for such investments, not to mention the current elected party loves small government and has been enacting Austerity measures for the last 5 years, in perfect world this would be the case

>"Your own people"? Who might those be? Whatever the capitalist in charge tells you?

All those who work and contribute to the society, no matter their background, those who pay taxes for what they recieve, who work rather than simply exploit state benefits, those who are are part of the wider national community, not those who form communities of their own inside the nation, not those who are disruptive to the society as a whole.

>>7823

Re-read my post and try again. My point was made on sound economic arguments you chose to ignore.

>>7863

You're saying I'm for Trump? On the contrary, the best choice we have is (unfortunately) Sanders.

I honestly can't think of any socialist accomplishments besides making cute little euro countries stable.

I guess par for the course are considered accomplishments to socialists.

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>>7845
How do you come to a conclusion that socialists or communists are Sjw? Where's even the fucking logic in that?

>>7908
the unfortunate thing about the internet is its easy to avoid those who dont agree with you completely
so yes that is too much to ask

>>7908
Sorry. /pol/, just like tumbr, can't handle different opinions.

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>>7935
>>7908
>>7890
>>7880

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They created one of the most interesting places on earth

Thanks USSR

>>7890
Socialism is directly linked with sjwism

>>7908
hhhhaaaaa AAAAHAHAHAHAAHAH

>>7950
>sound economic arguments

Oh, the myth of the uneducated, criminal, welfare-leeching immigrant is now a sound argument?
I though that was rightwing-propaganda, guess I was wrong.

Tell me about the jews while you're at it

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>>7978

>>7972
serious question, why is correcting and responding to retarded posts "taking bait"
there are people who are legitimately this retarded

>>8010
[citation needed]

>>8010
its a jewish conspiracy right?

>>8037
i posted that because you are taking the b8 of the shitposter from /pol/

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>>8010
What?

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>>7845
Leftist != SPOOKY SCARY SKELETON

>>7854
>says the guy who wants unregulated immigration into his country to spite the "pork eaters" and white people

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>>8079
Because ignoring the cause and not teliing the faggot that he's an unter faggot helps, right?

>>6582
Are you implying there was no middle class before WWII?

>>7789
>>8107
Why are you so obsessed with pork?

>>8107
But we want to end the causes that lead to mass migrations in the first place. And those causes just happen to stem from capitalism.

>>8070
Muh Frankfurt school lmao

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>>8107
a. im white
b. porky is a leftypol meme, this is him say hello
c. nationalism is cancer
d. you have a small penis

>>8013


Its simple logic friend, every job a business brings a migrant in to fill is a job not going to a native. Eliminate foreign competition, local wages rise. And never mind the cultural problems involved.

plz participate in my thread
>>6129

>>8225
Once again implying that migration is somehow bad.

The USA are an entire nation of immigrants, all of whom came in huge waves of mass migration. Didn't hurt them in the end, did it?
Did immigrants ruin Canada? Or Australia?

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>>5710
sage

https://youtu.be/_H2INbgLQqA?t=9m57s

why are rightwing fags so quick to pull out the straw man? is that the only fallacy they learned?

>>8286
>The USA are an entire nation of immigrants
yes doesn't matter if we become brazil 2.0

>>8246
>a. im white
So your a white guilt faggot
>b. porky is a leftypol meme, this is him say hello
Because you are a leftist shill
>c. nationalism is cancer
But you leftists defend the black panthers and zionists
>d. you have a small penis
Typical anti gun argument, discarded

>>8257
That will only fix local problems. The greater global problems will still exist.

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>>8309
the sage cant get rid of THIS ghost
announceing sages is a bannable offence
also marx was right

>>8225
>>8286
I think you misunderstand the situation a bit. The problem isn't in the migration itself. The problem is in the reasoning behind the migration and how the governments are handling the migration. You're looking at seperate cases that had different causes for migration that resulted differently.

>>5710
Marx was a statist faggot in disguise.

t. Bakunin

>>8286
I don't think migration is bad per se. But when people are forced to migrate en masse because of wars or economic conditions that's bad. They should migrate because they want to, not because they're forced to.

>>8257
>Its simple logic friend, every job a business brings a migrant in to fill is a job not going to a native

So? The wealth created by the migrants will create new jobs

>>8309
>Video game screenshot
>Revival of a meme that started before he was born
At least leftists have graduated from high school

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Reminder

>>1

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSQgCy_iIcc

>>8341
ok mate, i realise that patrica left you for tyrone and it broke your heart in such a way only uncle hitler can fix it but... no one cares
also guns are a right

>>8341
>But you leftists defend the black panthers and zionists
Some leftists do. What makes you think the person you're arguing with does? That's like assuming anyone right-wing is in favor of the Holocaust.

>Typical anti gun argument, discarded
So you're bringing up guns, a completely unrelated topic, to make yourself feel less inadequate?

>>8286


Calling the Anglos immigrants misses the point because there was no significant country there to begin with, only roving packs of prehistoric holdovers (who were, I should add, migrants themselves). The Anglos made america, and concordantly its in their interest to keep others out (yes, that does mean the importation of african slaves was a huge mistake).

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>>8393
pls do not make fun of stalin comrade
this is a no bully bored

>>8474
The Anglos did pretty much ruin what civilization already existed here though.

>One (1) unbiased thread talking about socialism, an important historical development
>/pol/ refugees chimp out because this isn't /history - /pol/ edition/

Pathetic.
Scandinavia's high quality of life and high degree of socialism is pretty admirable.

>>8393
a true reminder that manlets can achieve great things.

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>>8341
>But you leftists defend the black panthers and zionists

>>6188
The Rojava Revolution In northern Syria does a pretty good job as well.

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>>8361

Nigger if this board becomes a hive of Marxists I don't want to be here anyways.

>>8381
I'm actually an enlisted pawn of the military industrial complex. uwu

>>8574
>Nigger if this board becomes a hive of Marxists
>literally one on-topic thread
>hive of Marxists
Just end your sad life.

>removing germans and their cocksuckers to build infrastructure for glourios rus making sure they die on the way.
>removing jews to syberia
>containing kebabs in their mountains
>Jumpstarting agrarian feudal society to major international player within negligible time.

Granpa Stalin is best granpa.

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>>8574
>Nigger if this board becomes a hive of Marxists I don't want to be here anyways.
Holy fuck, you're so retarded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0ljxQsgUM4
reminder that oppressive systems are bourgeois
>>8621
also stalin betrayed lenin

>>8341
>But you leftists defend the black panthers and zionists

Kek. The greatest support to zionism in modern times comes from the conservative right.

if you guys like communism so much, why don't you move to russia?

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>>8620

K, I'll shill for Marxist political policies so I can starve to death.

>>5710
>>1

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>>8688

Well, at least I'm not a leftist.

y'all fuckers need some commie literature
jesus christ

>>8343


It would be good for others in their own native areas too. For example, one of the chief Barrie's to the self sufficiency of many third world countries is the fact that cheap imports fr the west prevent native businesses from forming, most significantly in agricultural sectors.

Not that I'm implying I actually care about Africans mind you, that's just how it works out. A 'global economy' is a catastrophe, multiple redundancies are much more adaptive wrt making civilizations work for a number of reasons, fulfilling Keynesian functions in less arbitrary ways especially (this can apply just as easily within a country as well).

>>8754
no youre not a leftist, youre a retard

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>>8754
Great comeback, faggot. Now go back to facebook where you came from.

communism is the abolishement of property & the division of labour, which leads to the withering away of class, state, etc.

>>8343
This is true, but you cannot undermine nation issues. In fact national issues should come before external ones, so that you're in good enough shape to help other countries.

Considering we live in a globalised world, the idea of competition between nations is counter-intuitive, considering how connected economies are these days. So, it is imperative to help those countries that are falling behind, because leaving them as they are will eventually create problem for the ones that are doing well.

and I feel like this'll become the board where /lit/ clashes with /pol/ lol gg good luck at running this board with bitch ass meme nazis and conservaturds infesting this board with shit

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2nd wave of Marxist revolutions when

>>8690
well nobody is perfect he is still best granpa. Sure as hell beats the clusterfuck that was Khrutschev.

Still shame that Makhno's dream of anarcho communism was ruined by EVERYBODY attacking him. That was a good example of anarcho communism working on relatively large scale and without too many problems.

>>8834
Oh look, a sensible post. Sadly, we aren't dealing with sensible people.

>>8973
(you)

>>8375


'Wealth creation' is an act of financial alchemy, and it is entirely unnecessary to inflate your *real* dependencies in order to achieve that.

Such a thing is not unlimited in praxis, in any case.

if communism is so great, why has it never worked?

btfo

>>8995
youre kidding right?
of course you are sorry for asking

>>8995
Because it's the way of getting there that's not so great.

>>8973
the problem is that outside of academia communism is still identified with the formerly state-capitalist block in the east. There aren't many people who don't consider themselves marxists and still recognize what communism actually aims at.
sad desu

>>8995
America did its best to stop it from working.

Doesn't mean it can't work in the future.

>>9022
>no response

consider yourself btfo
>>9024
>Because it's the way of getting there that's not so great.
i bet getting there wouldn't be so hard if communists stopped killing and oppressing people

why do people legitimately believe that socialism can be achieved through democratic means?\
revoloution is the only way and that doesnt work 100% of the time

>>9075
oh god hes serious, he doesnt even know what communism means!

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socialist accomplishment

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>>9075
communism is terrorism

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>>8995
>>9075
Nigger, I know you're just baiting and being retarded on purpose, but have you looked at >>6645

>>5817
Americans would be laughing, it's the former Soviet countries like Estonia who are going to be butthurt.

>>9124
>westerdok
Huh, what?

>>9075
>i bet getting there wouldn't be so hard if communists stopped killing and oppressing people
The killing and oppression is a consequence of a failed transition to Communism.

>>7330
>marxists
>vanguard state

0/10

>>9132
>Being this mad that people are discussing something you don't like on "your" website
Absolutely pathetic.

>>9132
>About 10 IQ points.
In which direction?

>>9122
>still no response
thoroughly btfo

>>9146
capitalism has flaws, does this mean communism doesn't? stop being a dirty extremist

>>9210
>a consequence of a failed transition to Communism.

why is it constantly failing if it's so good?

communism = rues du sucre, la plage partout, the full satisfaction of human needs

capitalism = dude, like VALORIZATION OF CAPITAL lmao

>>9258
Being ignored doesn't count as BTFOing someone.

>>9294
Because the transition part ISN'T so good.

>>6645
Please tell me this is just b8.
If not, go back to facebook with those meme image.

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>high level of discourse is expected
Even /leftpol/ argues better than the Communists in this thread.

>>5775
/thread

>>9258
"take my bait! take my bait please!"
in all seriousness the reason all socialist countries have failed (communism is stateless, there is no such thing as a communist country)
is because of imperialists and bourgeois pressure, a prime example being the iranian communist party that was freely elected and then ousted by american and british agents
also cuba is extreamly successful for a country that has been embargoed for more then half a century

>>9330
because it messes with their echochamber.

>>8561
>Rojava Revolution
nice, didn't hear about this. reading up on it now

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why can't the shitposters from /pol/ leave us alone?

>>9294
Attempts to achieve democracy also failed a fuck ton of times. Literally hundreds of peasant revolts failed, ended up with everyone dead. Same with the abolition of slavery.
Such a big shift in the societal and economic structure is hard, really hard, it has nothing to do with it being "good" or "bad".

>>9375
>its a meme image if it dissagrees with me and proves my bourgeois assumptions wrong

/leftypol/ is a bunch of liberal socdem #feelthebern types, anti-imp chavista state-fetishists and ANARCHY LMAO types

leftcoms are based

>>9395
cuba is ranked one of the most freedomless countries in the world

>>9424
its an on topic thread retard

>>9296
I hope you realize just how fucking retarded you are right now.

Why does this happen every time in every single thread about Socialism or Communism?

>You don't understand Socialism/Communism!
>No YOU don't understand!
>No, both of you are wrong!
>None of you are actual commies, you understand nothing!
>lol Socialism sux
>lol Murrican thinks Marism/Leninism/Stalinism/Maoism = Socialism
>Socialism is X
> No, Socialism is Y
>lol thinking the State will help ya
>Fuck off hippie

Etc, etc, etc... Seriously, it would help a lot if Socialism wasn't a blanket term for so many things.

Marxism is dead. It has been taken over by capitalists and pro-capitalist governments, corrupted and perverted into a philosophy of pro-slavery. Just look at the people using the language of Marx in order to justify the poor working multiple jobs, over 40 hours a week, more than one adult per household required to make ends meet, demanding open borders to create even more lower class competition, and just look at the beautiful women conditioned to think that the greatest accomplishment in life they can muster is getting a thankless, dead end office job and that careers that actually benefit women (legal prostitution) or society (stay at home mom) are bad, ect. Marxism is dead and there's no bringing it back.

>>9454
>leftypol is a bunch of socdems
the concession on leftypol is that socdems are cancer

>>9479
>LOL LIBRULZ R COMMIES n jooz

>>9330
>make leftist shilling thread
>get upset when people call you about for your leftist shilling

This thread went downhill real fast.

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>>9484
In reality Socialism is the collectivization of the means of production, everything else is red scare.

>>9484
You're forgetting

>Social Democracy is totally 100% socialism

>>9476
>refuses to respond to all of my other points and just spouts muh freebums

>>9539
Then what's the difference between that and communism?

Liberalism killed the soviet union. Noone had any inclination that the ussr was even *close* to a crisis, east *or* west. A total collapse wasnt even in the realm of consideration, save in an abstract sense of 'communism eventually defeats itself.'

Things were going great until the fire na- I mean until Gorbachev ruined everything by introducing evil 'enlightenment' era memes from the west, the true progenitors of degeneracy.

Rip right lenninism.

>>9507
that doesn't mean that they aren't bloody liberals
I remember how I mentioned that in socialism there effectively wouldn't be a working class and some were completely shocked by this statement, even though it's basic marxism.

>>9426
is such a massive societal and economical change remotely realistic now though?

>>9476
By who? Some American capitalist think-thank? They have one of the most advanced health care sectors in the world. I'd say ranking low on an arbitrary definition of freedom is well worth it

>>5710
muh gets

>>9539
True, but that doesn't mean much when every other sub-ideology thinks of different means to accomplish such a thing.

>>9572
sorry m8 but the russian revolution already died in 1921

>>9476
Hong Kong literally has forced labor and it ranks almost every top freedom chart ever.

>>9556
Communism is a final stage of a socialist society where the state, money and social classes have completely dissolved.

There are other forms of socialism that don't end up in communism, like Mutualism which is socialist markets.

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>>9476
>>9606
>cuba
>free

>>9552
i didn't respond to the other points because i'm not debating them, they're true

do you think civil liberties and freedoms are meaningless?

>>9606
>They have one of the most advanced health care sectors in the world
They don't even consider anything under 1 year old to be a person and count it towards child mortality rate.

Cuba is definitely not a country you should be defending as working communism.

>>9660
Is that what revleft and leftypol told you?

>>9687
definine "civil liberties"
a duel party government is not effective and i dont see how the people who will be spending their winter homeless under a bridge are free while there are a million more livable empty houses then there are homeless people

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>>9486

>>9450
>my bourgeois assumptions wrong
Sigh... Is this becoming the anti-/pol/?

>Millions of natives die, mostly of disease
>XIX century impreialism
> The fucking holocaust
>Israeli """""""""""""colonization""""""""""""""""
>A fucking embargo

Do you know what is capitalism?
99% in that meme list has nothing to do with it.
Go back to the l*ftist shithole where you came from.

>>9725
Even if that's true, they still have one of the lowest infant mortality rates in Latin America. So you're really just defeating your own argument.

>>9813
freedom to access 4chan and shitpost

>>9828
WTF is this shit meme?

>>9426


When it comes to governance, the virtue of a policy and the ease in which it is administrated is pretty much isometric.

If an certain ideal is 'hard to implement', that is often the way for nature or natures god to tell you that its probably not a good idea.

>>9405
I've got a great article on this.
Had to read it as a part of my critique class:
http://www.bak-utrecht.nl/media/attachments/W1siZiIsIjU1NWFmZmI3NDNmZDUyNDc2MjAwMDU3MyJdXQ?sha=f797dc5e

If you read this, you will understand the Rojava revolution, our 21st century Catalonia.

>>9783
Nope, discussing gun rights and a gun grabber said there were countries more free than the US. Got his head stomped into a mudhole by facts. Fucking bourgeoisie thinking they can take guns away from the working class.

>>9832
theyre all directly linked to capitalism
saying that american, european, and israeli imperialism is not related to capitalism is like saying that the deaths caused by the great leap forward in china isnt related to socialism

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>>9832
stay strong defender of individual autonomy

bitcoin is stateless property

>>9539
This.
It has almost nothing to do with welfare state/social democracy.

Bernie Sanders is NOT socialist
Canada is NOT socialist
Scandinavia is NOT socialist
Good countries are NOT socialist

>>9902
>that is often the way for nature or natures god to tell you that its probably not a good idea
Haha what.
It's not nature or Gaia or Jesus or Buddha telling us that communism doesn't work; it's a group of bureaucrats defending their interests and shitting all over revolutions time after time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

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>>9921
>Fucking bourgeoisie thinking they can take guns away from the working class.
nah, that's what jews and leftists do

>>6797

I don't have white guilt, and I don't have class guilt because I'm not bourgeois scum

Long live the international working class!

>>10013
I've noticed that stormfag's strategies to argue is basically repeating strawman fallacies ad nauseam. They're basically breathing bots.

Anyway, radical leftists are pro-gun and it's the last time I'll bother telling you that.

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>TFW /pol/ shits will never shut us down here
pic unrelated

>>9877
Even Leftist think-tanks agree that official Cuban statistics aren't reliable. Pregnant Women's rights are effectively removed to maintain said international rankings; they're outright pressured to abort at any signs of minor abnormalities etc.

>>9968
Yup, I'm sure muh evil corporations invented smallpox to kill the natives.

Most African colonies were a big resource drain. Nationalism is to be blamed here.

Capitalism means free enterprise. Private ownership of the means of production is merely its consequence.

>>9908
thanks anon, will read it.

>>10135
Define 'radical leftist'. And no, you can't include pro-gun in your definition because that would be circular reasoning.

>>10002


The shape of contexts, the behavior of humans, and the behavior of humans in those contexts, making contexts, are all contours of being through which the river of history is diverted. Lack of respect for these contours is a leading cause of civilizational failure.

>>9980
what are they then?

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>socialist accomplishments thread
>only commie keks posting

>>10135
Why shouldn't I support white pride?

>>10192
Corporations were largely responsible for the colonization of America.

Red Army Choir and social liberalism

>>10135
radicalism in any form is unhealthy and only divides the working class

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>>10225
your white pride is now pathetic
>>10242
>>10242
>social liberalism
proofs

>>10241
>Monopolistic charter companies
>Capitalist

Would you say that it's an issue for Socialism and Anarchism the latest wave of modern leftists and their ideas?

Do you believe Neo-feminists, hippies, SPOOKY SCARY SKELETONS and the like add anything to the left other than numbers, or do you believe they're detrimental to the cause?

>>10219
Shh, just let them have their deluded echo chamber thread. The real world has already proved most of their deluded fantasies wrong

>>8561
>muh Rojava

I can't wait for the YPG to show it's true colours and start massacring Assyrians. Then all these bandwagoners will abandon the Kurds faster that they abandoned Venezuela once oil prices dropped.

>>10204
What?
Radical nowadays is any leftist who seeks a socialist revolution.

>>10225
Because identity politics are stupid, you should base your society on economic theories and systems of production, not on arbitrary definitions of race, imaginary lines, magic Gods and talking snakes.

>>10254
"Radicalism" comes from the word "root", in other words it means to fix problems from their root; it's the opposite of reformism which tries to fix complex problems with patch solutions (for example welfare). It doesn't mean "extremism".

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>>7680
Pinochet defeated a communist insurgency with 10.000 members killing only 3.000 people.

A lot of people like Tito, who killed 100x that.

>>10291
>your white pride is now pathetic
how so? you didn't post anything proving or even arguing that white pride is in anyway bad.
>>10326
The only thing leftists believe is a world free of the "oppressive white race"

>>10398
>I can't wait for the YPG to show it's true colours and start massacring Assyrians.

Why would they massacre Assyrians? Stop projecting your genocidal fantasies.

>>10225
Because the majority of "white pride" tends to be nothing more than bashing other races.

>>5710
ok

>>10436
weak and shitty b8, but at least you tried

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>>10359
if only they had a little longer, german aircraft would have keked everyone over and then germany wouldn't have been occupied for more then half a century

>>10310
Still corporations.

>>10460
Because that's what communists do with kulaks.

>>10528
Germany already had such a bad shortage of trained pilots and fuel that they couldn't even make use of the planes they did have.

>>10214
They're liberal democracies with a welfare state model.

Guess what? There are still private corporations in Sweden. It is not, memes aside, a socialist country.

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>>10326
As a leftist, I believe they're completely detrimental to the cause. Sjws often put their petty issues over economic and material issues. They're wealthy whiny kids who grew up in a safe space. You rarely see Sjws in the third world because they're worried about whether they'll be able to eat, instead of the pronouns people should use to address them. They're a complete embarrassment to the left. Black Lives Matter for example, also reeks of Hillary shills.

>>10528
Brits had their own jet fighters by 1944 and the americans by 1945, so not as much you would hope.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Meteor

>>10415
>you should base your society on economic theories and systems of production
This is naive, I think.
Minimising the importance of culture and identity in society is waiting for it to implode.

Though plenty of people confuse pride with supremacy, the idea of being proud of who/what you are is good for the person and for society.

>>10536
So what?

USSR and Mao's PRC had corporations like these.

From wikipedia: "A corporation is a company or group of people authorized to act as a single entity (legally a person) and recognized as such in law."

>>10562
And what do kulaks have to do with Assyrians?

>>10663
>Though plenty of people confuse pride with supremacy, the idea of being proud of who/what you are is good for the person and for society.
Being proud of your achievements is fine. But things like your race and your nationality aren't things you decided or put an effort in at all. You just were born as it. I'm not minimising the importance of culture, I think it's very important, but I'm saying that building your entire political ideology over identity instead of material conditions is idiotic and leads to an irrational society.

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Conservative majority governments for the next decade

>>10528

>45 years is more than half a century

>>10690
nice getting people off topic
the point was capitalist systems kill more people then socialist ones

>>9572
>they instituted glastnost for no reason!
Die

>>10748
Also I should also say that this is no different what Sjws do. Building an ideology over race is no different from building an ideology over gender.

is this the first thread to hit bump limit?

>>10748
>but I'm saying that building your entire political ideology over identity instead of material conditions is idiotic and leads to an irrational society
I agree political ideologies shouldn't be built based on that.
In fact, had you used the term "political ideology" instead of "society" I wouldn't have even replied to you.

That being said, you're still minimising the importance of people being proud of who they are. I agree identity shouldn't be of highest importance, but it is imperative for any society that its members feel empowered by their identity (involving culture, race, etc...), in order for there to be social cohesion and thus familiarity.

A cohesive society is a good foundation for a society to achieve all those things you listed as important.

>>10398
Meanwhile many Assyrians are committed to the Rojava radical democracy where they themselves govern in a grass-roots way. Bottom-up. Arabs, and Assyrians are a large part of the PYD. I'm not talking about the YPG, that is merely one of the defense organisations that came out of Rojava's society. Meanwhile everyone is fapping over the military offensives etc, but the political organisation of Rojava is way more interesting and important.

>>10735
Assyrians in the Middle East occupy a similar middlemen minority status.

>>10849
First of all, how can you say that american colonies and the like were capitalist?

Second, that statistic seems pulled off someone's ass.

And finally, if you blameeverything bad that happens in a slightly capitalist country on capitalism then yes, capitalism kills more people.

>>11016
Unfortunately many people do not know the history of communism. It's always "bottom-up democracy" until either it's crushed by outside forces, then it did nothing wrong and was the perfect communism that never happened (Catalonia) or it's consolidated around a charismatic leader that launches purges against the opposition, then it wasn't true communism (USSR).

There is no third way because this is not Switzerland in the XVIth century where you can just retreat to your mountain and let the rest of the world burn. And specially since the Kurds have decided to uphold women's rights and other bullshit, they need a centralized state to enforce this cultural dispositions amongst the population. There can be anarcho-feminism because feminism always depend upon a centralized state to enforce women's rights.

So yeah, these dumb Assyrians are digging their own graves.

i'm glad there are no flags, but it would be interesting to see the flags in this thread

>>11000
>but it is imperative for any society that its members feel empowered by their identity
It's not imperative; it's just an easy way to make people feel empowered without any real reason. It's an easy way to arbitrarily put groups of people to fight against each other. If you have real motivations behind a fight to achieve real, material and concrete things you don't need identity to make people feel empowered.

>>11184
>they need a centralized state to enforce this cultural dispositions amongst the population.

I don't see why that should be the case. People naturally want to be free from things like being forced to wear a veil, you don't need a state to make them do it. Of course there will be people who will still want to wear it, but as long as they're not forced to it's ok.

>>6243
Yeah, this is pretty impressive. I often wonder how much of what I "know" about Cuba is totally off base.

Anyone have links that are somewhat easily verified?

>>11187
not really
on /int/ there's these same arguments at least once a week and there's no discernible pattern about side/country

>>11245
I'd add, that when a fight for material changes begins, people in a side don't join forces because of identity, but because of another thing: common interest.
In a socialist revolution, the worker class join forces because they all share a common interest. No matter their identity/race/country.

>>11443
ah well, don't go to that board, so thanks for the tidbit of information.

>>11126
colonies are founded with the soul interest of making money how are they anyting but capitalist? and as ive said before in this exact thread all of these numbers are well accounted for and most of them are aknowlaged by the aggressor government or company, though i do wish that the infographic had listed sources

>>5710
There's literally none. That's the joke.

>>11184
>they need a centralized state to enforce this cultural dispositions amongst the population
I don't agree with this assumption. Through their social contract which was signed by the relevant Rojavan democratically elected institutions and through extreme political decentralisation they actually have managed to uphold this untill now. The people are the sovereigns.

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>>11826
If you don't know history at all and are just a mindless child, then sure.

>>11603
There are so many things wrong about this drivel you've typed that it's laughable. And I'm not just talking about the horrifying spelling and grammatical errors (which are typical of rabid leftist apologists such as yourself).
Capitalism is a very vaguely defined idea, but consistent qualities of "capitalism" all provide that it is privately owned and industrial in nature. The trading and colonial companies which were fundamental to the mercantile system are anything but privately owned and industrial. Now go away.

>>11909
>Capitalism is a very vaguely defined idea
Pretty much all economic ideas are vaguely defined and, often when described, can either contradict themselves or interlap with other economical ideas.

>>11909
>The trading and colonial companies which were fundamental to the mercantile system are anything but privately owned and industrial.
Also, I don't know where you got this idea that these things weren't privately owned.

>>11826
End of absolute monarchies
The end of slavery
The end of child labor
8 hour working day
Minimum wage
Safety nets
Collective bargaining
Pensions
Occupational Safety and Health Act
Meal and rest breaks
Better working conditions

Should I keep going?

>>11245
>>11463
I believe your reasoning is limited.
You say that all people need to be glued together is a purpose. But not any purpose brings people together - especially a whole society, and the strength of purpose to keep people together only lasts so long.
Not to mention though purpose gives a sense of comradery, it doesn't give much of a sense of familiarity.

Human beings, for better or worse, didn't evolve to see large masses as their own. As you broaden the terms of what makes a society, the more disassociated the individual will become, fostering the proliferation of sub-cultures and you end up with a fragmented society.

I fully agree though, that when you need changes, people don't work together because of identity, but due to common-interest. However, that purpose ends as soon as the battle is won. Even if you say that after that people will have to work together for things to develop well, the main factor that united people (i.e. that which people joined to fight against) is already down, and thus the main factor for cohesion is gone.

There is no better ingredient for social-cohesion than identity.

Mind you, just in case I'm being misunderstood, I don't think societies should be closed systems, completely shut from the rest of the world. Such a thing would be detrimental to development and would foster ignorance. However, you want people to have a sense of belonging. Identity gives you that both in the short and long run. Purpose doesn't.