How does one become self-actualized?

>>473405
wu wei zazen

>>473405
"Self actualization" is a meaningless slogan designed to sell people a cure for an imaginary illness.

>>473407

Mixing without thought both Zen and Tao is degenerate as fuck. Get rekt.

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>>473422
>exercise and meditation are j-just memes, shut the fuck up mom!

>>473427
>Zen and Taoism
>together
>degenerate

never gonna make it

>>473457
What the hell are you talking about? Exercise and Meditation are healthy activities.

Also, Zen Masters reject Daosim.

>>473427
>Mixing without thought both Zen and Tao is degenerate as fuck.

Learn the history of Zen, in particular cha'an.

>>473488
Zen Masters reject Daosim explicitly.

>>473504
Post sources.

>>473507
Monkey Magic

Every week they bash Taoists.

Take up a combat sport

Realize that life is a struggle unto death the only way you will truly embrace is to embrace it's pains

>>473512
>some random blog
>zen masters

dude you got sources or what. I'm not even saying you're full of shit, just post sources

>>473507
"I don't preach the doctrine of the Taoists"

-Joshu

Pretty much if you study any Zen whatsoever you will see rejections of Daoism among other things crop up quite often.

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>>473405
>Monsanto haters
Fucking science hating hippies.

I got into tantric sex and now all I do is enage in orgies with ethnically ambiguous girls from east of Istanbul

Try that op it works for me.

>>473520
Okay, but what really is the difference between the Tao and Zen's Mu

>>473544
The "Tao" means the way/path roughly equivalent to the western 'law' and accordingly Daoists have a 'Tao', Confucian have a 'Tao', mohists have a 'Tao' that they all believe in.

I'm assuming you are talking about the Taoists particular beliefs about "The Way'.

Fundamentally, Mumons 'No!' allows no doctrine to enter -- Laotzus teachings areby their nature doctrines.

>>473530
Where the fuck do I sign up for this

>>473518
Monkey Magic was a TV show mate. Spot the fucking non-Australian.

>>473520
have you sat not thinking about Joshu much? It seems not.

>>473504
You mean modern-era Japanese propagandists?

A significant part of the history of modern Japan is the development of Japanese national identity, a lot of which involved deliberate separation from Chinese philosophy and culture. Most Zen masters who reject Daoism in the modern era do so because it's Chinese.

>>473563
>The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao

seems like both believe in the existence of an ineffable, non-dualistic, ultimate reality to me. I don't know where western 'law' figures into this to be honest family

>>473565
I got a job teaching English to villagers in a remote monastery.

As you can imagine, things got out of hand and now here I am shoving my thumb up the bum of a Sulawesi princess while chanting the seven names of Mahakala.


All life is suffering

>>473572

What does sitting have to do with Zen?

>>473574

No. I mean Zen Masters reject Taoism. What Japanese Priests do is not my concern.

>>473577

Zen Masters weren't interested in 'non dualistic ultimate realities'

>>473597
For fucks sake William S. Burroughs GO BACK TO THE GRAVE and stop transmigrating.

>>473599
>What does sitting have to do with Zen?
It is pretty comfy desu.

>>473608
Sometimes, sure. There are a bunch of interesting studies on the effects of sitting for long periods of time -- it seriously fucks up your joints and even your DNA ages faster or whatever.

>>473606
I would but all the texts in the library are just depictions of obsucre sex positions from around the world... Far as I know the nearest city is a three week journey (with yaks). Putting this rec on the back burner brah, sorry

>>473599
>Zen Masters weren't interested in 'non dualistic ultimate realities'

They were interested in one's original nature, which I still haven't heard any good reasons for why it's not like the Tao yet

>>473626
Zen Masters don't make the claim that there is a difference between your mind at this moment and your "original nature"

Taoists do and teach that by following their method they can lead you back to it.

>>473615
When walking, just walk.

>>473639
When does anyone do anything other than walk when they walk?

Unless you are trying to tell me to "quiet my mind" something which Zen Masters call "mind pacification and false Zen".

>>473638
No, but they still recommend practice to realize this original nature. You can call the ordinary, small mind just an illusion all you want, and while that may be the case, it is an illusion that must be dispelled. Doesn't sound like that much of a difference between Zen and Taoists, family.

>>473644
What are you even blithering about

Either you're onto something the rest of us aren't or you're gravely misunderstanding Zen my friend

>>473651
Disagree. Zen Masters reject 'practice' as a vehicle to anything. They don't teach the doctrine of 'small vs. big mind'.

It's like trying to charge people a toll when there is no gate barring entry.

I'm saying that you're claim that "Zen and Taoism aren't that different" is one based not upon rigorous study but rather acceptance of a number of pop-culture memes that are reinforced by a shitty academic culture in today's religion studies departments.

>>473657

What such misunderstanding do you claim I endorse?

>>473668
Read Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. Shunryu Suzuki routinely employs this dichotomy of small mind vs. big mind. Of course at the root of it there is no such distinction. It sounds like you're getting hung up on how the original nature is described rather than the specifics of this original nature itself.

I still haven't heard any good arguments for why the behaviors of the masters in the Tao te Ching and Zen masters are all that different

>>473675
That Joshu did not preach the doctrine of the Daoists.

>>473687
Shunry Suzuki is not a Zen Master. He is ascribed the title of it by varous peoples as some sort of priestly honorific but when you compare what people like Mumon, Linji, and Joshu have to say with people such as Shunryu you can immediately see rejections of what the latter claims in the texts of the former.

You made the claim dude -- YOU have to provide evidence. I pointed out simply that Zen Masters reject taoist teachings explicitly ...you have a big amount of evidence you need to overcome that.

>>473688
He rejects their teachings explicitly and unequivocally.

Read Joshu.

>>473705
you're just getting hung up on the language. the buddha believed there were two kinds of truths: the conventional truths of society we all wrestle with and must utilize if we are to cross to the shore of enlightenment, we can call them the truths of the raft. and ultimate truth, where all distinctions of small mind vs. big mind, illusion vs. enlightenment, ego vs. buddha nature etc. are dissolved and there is only Mu, or the Tao, or Nirvana etc

>>473714
You claim I am getting 'hung up' but all I am doing is pointing out that what you claim is true is not, in fact, the case.

"The Buddha" is a phantasm. Different communities had different teachings or doctrines they claim the Buddha expounded.

Zen Masters just treat him as the illiterate farm boy he was.

They also don't teach "crossing to the shore of enlightenment"

>>473726
"killing the buddha" is more about not deifying him or becoming attached to him as a figure than debasing him as the "illiterate farm boy he was".

I'm honestly getting tired of talking to tripfags who need like 40 posts to hash out their views on a subject. Just post your sources or zip it dude. You're performing the Zen newbie fallacy of rejecting literally everything and anything because "that's not what Zen teaches". Language and discursive knowledge are helpful to a point, and no one's claiming they're a substitute for enlightenment itt, so idk what you're issue is.

>>473708
How often have you known Joshu to be explicit and unequivocal?

>>473733
Apparently Joshu was a straightforward kinda fellow.

>>473733
People of that region of India were literally illiterate and mostly peasants. Given that no written records exist mentioning such a figure until 500+ years its a safe bet to say that none of what people ascribe to him was actually said by such a figure(if it existed).

Tripfags? What tripcode am I using, lol. Persistent identity makes communication easier.

Sources: Record of Joshu, Mumonkan, Blue Cliff Record, Book of Serenity, Hsin Hsin Ming.

Read any of those and you will see page after page of Zen Masters rejecting practice as a vehicle to enlightenment or whatever.

The claims you make regarding Zen are entirely based on what you heard about it as opposed to study on your part.

>>473747
Read him and see for yourself! He's a cantankerous fellow -- watch out!

>>473756
I've read more books on Zen than you, buddy. I can't believe I'm talking to a dude who thinks "rejecting practice" means literally rejecting practice and not rejecting become attached to meditation as a means to the goal of enlightenment.

>>473405
go to reddit and start agreeing with liberal opinions

>>473526
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Kamala_Khan_(Earth-616)

>Kamala Khan was a Pakistani-American born in Jersey City after her parents moved from Karachi, Pakistan. Though respectful of her heritage, Kamala always felt different; she had nerdy interests, strict parents, and did not meet the white Eurocentric standards of beauty.
hmm

>>473764

So you cannot provide any evidence for your claims? All you can do is say "I can't believe..blah blah"?

All you are doing is repeating claims about Zen you heard from others -- pony up man! Study some Zen!

>>473759
Maybe, just maybe, Joshu was being a bit of a cunt when he said that. I don't know, all those other times he was a cunt don't give any explanatory power to my reading.

Not that this relates to Zen.

>>473779
I'd imagine how a lot of people could see him as a cunt...chasing monks out with his staff and such, not giving people doctrines to preach when asked.

Accept no substitutes!

>>473794
Here's another question for you, did Joshu preach Zen doctrines?

>>473776
>>473776
lol, like you had any sources besides one quote you probably made up. Please. you're seriously dense if you think Zen masters who presided over entire monasteries' worth of novice monks were advocating the futility of practice and not just making a point about being detached to the results of their zazen

>>473797
You tell me -- what's a doctrine that you can pin to Zen Masters?

>>473800
Again your "you probably made up" indicates a lack of study on your part along with your complete misunderstanding of how these monastic communities were organized in Tang and Song era China.

The funny thing is I'm not an expert at all in this field -- that's how shallow so much of these claims are about Zen. They can't even stand a simple poking question, let alone a knife cutting them in twain.

>>473802
I'm glad that we agree that Joshu preached neither Zen nor Dao doctrines. How does his not preaching Dao doctrines then impact on Dao and Zen?

>>473810
Dude just answer the question. What's the difference between the Mu and the Tao? The rest is noise.

>>473816
Zen Masters don't have doctrines to sell. Taoists do. Zen Masters reject Taoist doctrines on numerous occasions -- therefore your claim that they have a similarity on a substantive level is false.

I answered already. Mu = no. The Tao as Taoists believe it to be is that harmony with the universe is obtained through a rejection of artifice as it relates to human action.

Zen Masters reject that btw.

>>473835
Zen Masters don't have doctrines to sell. Buddhist priests do. Zen Masters reject Buddhist doctrines on numerous occasions.

>>473835
>“Heaven and earth and I are of the same root,
The ten-thousand things and I are of one substance.”

>“The practice of Zen is forgetting the self in the act of uniting with something.”

>“The Zen expression “Kill the Buddha!” means to kill any concept of the Buddha as something apart from oneself.”

>“To study Buddhism is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be awakened by all things.”

>The Master's power is like this.
He lets all things come and go
effortlessly, without desire.
He never expects results;
thus he is never disappointed.
He is never disappointed;
thus his spirit never grows old.

>“Two names emerge from a single origin and both are called mysterious.”

>“How can one know the eternal origin?
By letting go of ideas
and allowing it to reveal itself”

>“Perfect tranquillity is the way of heaven and earth.”


Selected quotes about from Taoism and Zen. sound the same to me family, sorry you're getting hung up on minor doctrinal differences

>>473835
Your posts are far too lacking in content, I'm convinced you're just here to attract arguments which inevitably will arise when you fail to substantiate anything you say, calling anyone that questions anything you say beneath you and never developing that in any significant way either. But obviously this is the level of conversation you want, so have fun with your non defined shitfest, thank you for being another quality contributor to ther board.

>>473864
Woah there partner! Steady!

First what are you quoting in each of the selections. Any old bozo can Google "Zen quotes" and get whatever unrelated garbage the search engine vomits your way.

Second -- saying that something "sounds the same" does not mean it is the same at all.

The King James Bible and Nietzsche's Thus Spake Zarathustra "sound the same" when you look solely at prose and diction but to say that similarity in surface appearance extends beyond the surface is folly.

>>473733
Tripfags rekt again

>>473881
Whatever bruh now you're just talking dumb shit. Have a nice day

>>473875
I don't care what you're "convinced" of -- I. really don't.

How about instead of waving your beliefs around like dirty underwear you engage in an intellectual manner and provide evidence for your claims.

>>473887
Dude I didn't even have to call up Mumon to get his staff and you run away.

>>473888
That was my first post in this thread you hypocritical dry tart of a poster

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>>473772
She's actually a good character. Better than the current Captain Marvel.

Plus brown chics do indeed feel insecure about not being white sometimes. White chics get most of the publicity.

>>473894
Doesn't matter.

You came in here to wave your dirty underwear around and now what?

What sort of contribution did you think that would have?

>>473904
Read what you just posted from the perspective of it bring a question from me. You sure a thick for someone who knows a little about zen.

>>473920
If bringing in "muh feels" is a literary equivalent to waving "dirty underwear" as I imagined then I would ask what "muh feels" argument did I make?

>>473928
Didn't you just post "morality is a sham" in that other thread? Too bad about that trip, faggot. Opinion discarded

>>473939
You seem to have a misunderstanding of
what a trip code is because lo' I do not have one.

>>473945
>le proper maymay terminology

kill yourself you sham faggot

>>473963

Is that it? I've cut out your tongue so all you can do is sputter at me to kill myself?

>>473976
you never had an argument to begin with, calm down chief

>>473979
Agreed. Just a few questions was all that was needed.

>>473526
>Defending Monsanto
>The maker of DDT and Agent Orange
>Also the same company that holds patents to human genetic codes
>Also the same company that sues farmers for using Monsanto products in a non-Monsanto field when that field was cross pollinated by an adjacent Monsanto field

Found the shill.

>>474319
>DDT
It works wonders and the only problem is that it was overused. It should just be used domestically to prevent malaria. A lot of people are talking about lifting the ban because it would save a lot of lives and would have very little ecological impact so long as it wasn't used for crops.

>Agent Orange
Blame that on the people who start and promote war.

>patents
That farm case you are talking about involved a farmer who obtained Monsanto seeds and started breeding them himself. Monsanto sent him warnings for two years and he only stopped after Monsanto sewed the farmer.

But I don't even care about all that. It's the science hating hippy fags that hate on GMOs because they have a sciencey sounding acronym is who I hate.

>>474333
Wrong. All wrong.

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>>474333
>DDT worked wonders
It also worked wonders on the bald eagle and peregrine falcon populations.

>Blame those who promote war
You mean corporations like Dupont and Monsanto?

>Doesn't care that a corporation literally owns a piece of them via patents
This is some next level willful ignorance.

>>473405
Browse 4chan and use BitTorrent

>>474339
Nice argument.

>>474396
You are largely ignoring what I said.

DDT can do more good than harm if used correctly, hate the people who started WW2 and not the people who built the A-bomb, and there is nothing wrong with GMOs no matter how much you try to vilify corporations.

>>474396
Fun fact, Monsanto WANTS you to be scared of GMOs because the worst that government restrictions will do is limit smaller competing businesses from developing GMOs.

In Christianity, theosis. In Hegel, through resolving the tensions in Geist. In most brands of existentialism, you never become self-actualized, life is a process of self-actualizing.

>>474440
And you're largely ignoring what I said as well.

Firstly, DDT is banned globally for a reason. Secondly, using a WW2 analogy in reference to a product that was used in the Vietnam War isn't helping your case. Thirdly, nukes were tangential to WW2. We didn't even use nukes on Germany. Fourthly, if you're implying that it's perfectly fine for corporations to own sequences of genetics, then you are far too gone to reason with. My issue isn't with GMOs. My issue is with patents on the genes themselves. Australia's highest court has ruled against the patenting of a human breast cancer gene. They've got the right idea.

>>474525
>My issue isn't with GMOs.
Then I see little reason to argue with you. About my only relevant point is that Monsanto gets too much flak. They do bad shit like any corporation but shit gets inflated just because of the irrational distrust of GMOs. That's why that story about Monsanto sewing that farmer gets so much attention despite the farmer clearly being in the wrong.

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>>474333
>>DDT
>It works wonders

>>474537
>>My issue isn't with GMOs.
>Then I see little reason to argue with you. About my only relevant point is that Monsanto gets too much flak.
You said monsanto haters are science hating hippies here >>473526 . And then that anon called you out on the fact that they hold patents to human genes here >>474319 . And now you're saying that that wasn't relevent to your original point.

You're tokyo drifting the goalposts.

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>>473405
Compare the amont of text you written in internet "discussions" to the actualy human contact you have had latelly...