Do animals deserve to have rights, when they still have no duties?

>>448647
What about our rights should only apply to humans? What property about them leaves them human only?

>>448656
Not OP but I think animals should have less rights then humans. obviously they should have someone, torturing animals for fun should be illegal, certain practices in the meat industry should be banned, but giving them rights equal to humans is silly

>>448647
No, the reason humans are where they are today is because we've dominated & controlled every other species on the planet. Humans are worth more than animals because we control them; if we give them rights we admit we are equal to them, which we are not.

Define "rights".

Define "animals".

>>448656
The "rights" humans have are a result of the social contract. If animals sacrificed some of their liberties in exchange for rights, nobody could complain, but I don't see bears sacrificing their freedom to maul people to death anytime soon.

>>448647
Animals don't have souls that are everlasting, when they die they just die.. What other special rights do you think they deserve other than living in their natural habitat...

>>448647
What duty does the human have?

Animals are things, they shouldn't have any rights.

I mean I get that someone torturing his cat for fun is fucked in the head but there's absolutely no reason why he should be penalized for it.

>>448941
Why are animals "things," but retards aren't?

>>448916
Babies deserve rights and cannot agree to social contract for the same reason animals deserve rights.

>>449019
Because retards are still biologically human, so HUMAN rights apply to them.

ITT : norms, norms, morals and norms

>>448695
This

Animals are still living creatures, they should be afforded certain rights that protects them from unfair treatment by humans
But at the same time, they inhabit a different sort of sphere than us. You can't expect an animal to stand trial. For that reason they should have rights but not EQUAL rights - that would just be silly

I think animals are deserving of respect and fair treatment, but the kind that applies to the type of natural world they live in
So don't go killing animals for no reason, but don't expect to stop animals from killing each other because muh feels

>>448927
>Animals don't have souls that are everlasting, when they die they just die

Same for gingers, yet they have rights

>>449033

Why is human DNA important, but consciousness, intelligence etc irrelevant in your opinion?

Wouldn't you say it's the human mind and capacity for experience that makes humans deserving of rights, not the sort of cells they're made of?

If you think it's only DNA that matters, what makes human DNA so much more important than animal DNA?

>>448647
They have the right to remain silent and the duty to get in my belly.

>>448927

>animals don't have souls that are everlasting

Neither do people. But even if we accept that "souls" are a thing, wouldn't that make killing animals doubly immoral? If you kill a human, they don't really die. Their soul continues. Kill an animal, and you're taking the only chance at experience they have.

Same question could be directed at women.

>>449143
Why should be consciousness and intelligence be a factor?

>>448941
>there's absolutely no reason why he should be penalized for it.
It's appalling behavior, like fucking your own turd in public.
>b-but what if they do it in private
If they do it in private, how will the cops get wind of it? They don't bother doing forensics on the pets you bury in your backyard to make sure it was a natural death.

If you get arrested for torturing your pets it means you:
A) did it in front of people who didn't need to see that shit
B) filmed it and uploaded it on youtube or wherever
C) disturbed your neighbors with horrifying noises
D) all the above

>>449157

Through consciousness, humans are able to suffer. Intelligence allows humans to experience more complex and varied forms of suffering - a fly who has lost its wings will at worst experience physical pain (likely not even that, since it'a doubtful that flies are conscious). A human who has lost all their limbs, in addition to physical pain, will experience mental anguish.

Rights, at least as they are currently applied throughout the western world, are mostly about alleviating or preventing suffering. Since suffering cannot exist without consciousness, it seems as though consciousness should be an important factor in deciding who gets what rights.

>>449174
>It's appalling behavior
Plenty of things is appaling. Men wearing women's clothes, people listening to rap, Gypsies etc. Doesn't mean it should be criminal.

Also you're using the "private" thing is a strawman, I never mentioned that, nor do I consider it relevant.

>>449174
>>449202
If anyone thinks we have no right to jail people who behave like this, let me remind you that we already arrest old men for flashing passerbies.
If you think animal cruelty is less obscene and traumatic than a wrinkly micropenis flapping in the wind, you're more fucked in the head than the cat torturers.

>Also you're using the "private" thing is a strawman, I never mentioned that, nor do I consider it relevant.
If you do your cat torturing in private, you can't get in trouble. It's simple.

>>449189
Only physical pain is actual pain, hurt feelings don't count. And you don't need consciousness to feel physical pain.

>>449202
it doesn't matter if i agree or disagree with you but you are really bad at making a point

>>449213
>we already arrest old men for flashing passerbies
And we also arrest people who torture animals, but that alone isn't an argument, it's still victimless crime.

>>449143
Because we always defined humans as something that is biologically human and not just "intelligent beings."

>>448941
fuck you

>>449202
did you just compare animal torture to drag queens and rap music?

>>449231
So what, you propose we let every creep flash kids in the streets?

>victimless crime
Victimless? I'm a fucking victim, I don't need to see you torturing a cat any more than I need to see you flossing your urethra with barbed wire, and I'm more jaded than the average person. I don't want my hypothetical children coming back home crying because they saw Crazy Joe stuffing a kitten up his ass on the way home from school.

>>449263
Yes. In fact I find the notion that animals should have rights extremely abhorrent and disgusting.

>>449231
>victim-less crime
the tortured cat is a living breathing creature, it's a fucking victim you dunce, you don't torture animals or people then get to say you are sane

>>448647
Edgelord: The post

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>>449264
>I don't need to see

Then turn away. Nobody is forcing you to look at anything.

>>448939
Obey the law and the state will provide safety and the prolonging of life.

At least, that's the case in most liberal democracies.

This is, however, a mere social construct with very little basis in natural law.

>>449278
It's a thing.

>you don't torture animals or people then get to say you are sane

I don't think people who torture animals are sane. That was a part of my original point, but I guess you're too American to have any sort of reading comprehension.

>>449216

All pain is "hurt feelings", in the sense that it all takes place in the brain. Why exactly is emotional pain not relevant? Many people would willingly undergo immense amounts of physical pain, even death, before experience certain types of emotional pain. This suggests it can reasonably considered to be a form of suffering that is in some cases on par with what is concentionally understood to be "physical" pain.

If you are not conscious, you don't experience pain as we would understand it. It's simply a programmed response. You can design a machine to make a noise and back away when you pour boiling water on it, with a relatively simple mechanism. It is, in this sense, experiencing "pain", in that it is exhibiting an avoidance response to harmful stimuli. That doesn't mean it's experiencing the more complex feeling/emotion of pain that humans (and possibly some other animals) do.

>>449288
no i read what you said, but yet here you are, defending it anyway, yet somehow you believe you are better than them.

>>449252

But, given that most contemporary codes of human rights aim to decrease suffering, shouldn't the capacity to suffer and to what degree be the important factors in granting/removing rights?

I'm not denying that many human rights codes also make provisions for the human body independent of mental capacity, but I'm unsure of the basis for that argument.

>>449289
Nah. Physical pain can actually be objectively quantified, mental pain is 100% subjective and socially constructed.

>>449294
>if you don't think X should be criminalized, you are X yourself or no better than X

I guess I'm a drug addict for thinking drugs should be legal too, even though I've never even smoked weed.

>>449281
Yeah, no. Look, either I can call the cops to drag your ass to the nearest prison or crazy house, or I'll have to beat your face until you stop. There's no third option. I'm intolerant like that.

>>449306

How do you objectively quantify physical pain independently of conscious experience?

>>449309
now you are comparing animal torture to weed
or do you also think drugs like cocaine and heroin should be legal as well? Because I can get behind weed being legalized despite never smoking it either

>>449278
You are killing living breathing creature every time you take a shower m8, I guess you should get locked up.

>>448647
there is no justice in duties. duties are a way to divide the worlds suffering, and they fall upon the able. they are fulfilled so that they may not multiply.

>>449313
>manlet / woman threatening to beat anyone

Internet tough guys never fail to amuse me.

>>449321

The difference is consciousness - it is reasonable to expect that cats, being mammals with complex brains, possess some rudimentary form of consciousness.

This is not the case for insects and microbes.

>>449321
holy shit you are retarded

>>449321
What creature that "breathes" are you killing when you shower?

>>449325
It's not even a threat. I'm quite ineffectual in a fight, so calling the cops will always be my first choice, but if the offending behavior is considered legal I'm forced to do something about it myself, right? I can't just shrug and walk away. If the guy is sufficiently intimidating I suppose I'll come back with my car, for my own safety.

>>449331
Cat's aren't sentient, bruv. Unless you use the vegan definition of consciousness as feeling pain, in which case skin mites and other arthropods probably can feel pain as well.

>>449313
>I am at liberty to harm people who offend me

I don't think you're very good at making a point.

>>449360
you fucking what?
are you pretending to be retarded?

>>449360
>idiot doesnt know what sentient means
>he thinks it means sapient

>>449366
I need offensive behaviors to be illegal so I'm not forced to commit assault against the perpetrators. It seems like a perfectly good reason to ban things to me.

they do have duties though

>>448647
It entirely depends on if they can act as moral agents or not. And they can't. Sort of the same that people should be allowed to do whatever they want to little kids. This view is accepted in the US where you're allowed to beat your own kids.

>>448927
Mehmet pls

>>449378
>This view is accepted in the US where you're allowed to beat your own kids.
are you fucking high? Child abuse is a thing you fucking mongoloid
spanking /=/ beating

>>449373
Never mentioned or implied sapience anywhere.

>>449381
>spanking /=/ beating
Where's the cutoff point?

>>449382
>Cat's aren't sentient, bruv. Unless you use the vegan definition of consciousness as feeling pain, in which case skin mites and other arthropods probably can feel pain as well.
Also simple reactions to stimuli aren't pain.

>>449381
I don't want to derail the thread because the subject is interesting, so the last thing I'll say about is is doing the same to an adult as you can do to a kid would get you sued and placed in jail.

>>449360

Cats are almost certainly not sapient.

There is a strong possibility that they are sentient, although not a guaranteed one. All we really know (or strongly suspect) about sentience is that it arises in a certain sort of brain. We know that humans possess this sort of brain. It is reasonable to further assume that a creature sufficiently close to a human is also likely to possess this sort of brain.

Do cats count as "sufficiently close"? Impossible to be sure with our current knowledge. They are certainly much closer to us than most other animals, especially when we factor in insects and microbes. However, even if we can't be sure that cats are sentient (and thus able to suffer), torturing them is still immoral, in the same sense that it would be immoral to press a button that "might" result in the torture of a random human.

>>449391
>>449387
oh no, i agree with you, i'm just saying, actually "beating" a kid will land your ass in jail, spanking by comparison is just looked down upon
as >>449391
said, I don't know why people are allowed to beat or spank their kids when doing so to an adult would land you in jail.

>>449405
sen·tient
ˈsen(t)SH(ē)ənt/
adjective
adjective: sentient
able to perceive or feel things

i'm pretty sure fucking cats and dogs are sentient

>>449405
>We know that humans possess this sort of brain.
We can't even know if anyone else experiences consciousness.

>>449389
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10501691

>>449415
So can arthropods.

>>449424
this kills the crab

>>449419
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10501691
So pain is just a chemical now?

>>449424
Yes and?

>>449427
If you can reduce responses to hurtful stimuli by administering analgesics, then yes, that's a strong indication that the creature we're talking about can feel pain.

Hopefully you'll get your ass dragged to jail the next time you kill a spider you criminal scum.

>>449441
Spider was trespassing and didn't respect my territory rights when I told it to leave.

>>449441
spiders are gross, and not cute and cuddly like my dog

>>449456
Same can be said about the cat that climbed over the fence to your yard.

>>449464
Exactly the argument I would expect a woman to make.

>>449472
i'm not a woman though you queer
and unlike spiders, dogs can't fucking poison me unless my domesticated companion somehow has rabies

>>449468
You can. The difference is the cat is someone's property, and property laws apply.

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>>449484
They can't poison you, but a dog can fuck you up pretty bad.

>>449501
In that case you should be tried for damaging someone's property, regardless of whether it was a cat or something else.

>>449484
>i'm not a woman though
But do you wish to be one?

>>449030
Babies aren't a species.

>>449532

Actually I'm pretty sure every single baby that anon was referring to would be homo sapiens. btfo

animal rights is gay because it's not logically consistent at all
if it's wrong for humans to eat animals that would mean that it's a bad thing for animals to be killed for food
that would mean humans should change nature so that it's only herbivores
so much for protecting the environment you morons

Let's say animals get equal rights as humans. Should a cat stand trial because it "murdered" a mouse? Because this is logical conclusion of such idiocy.

>People who forget that humans are animals
>People who forget that most other animals can't quite understand our laws even if we forced them upon nature itself

God created man to have dominion over animals.

Before the Fall, everyone was vegetarian.

>>449572
This guy. I mean, it's the same with rape. Law of nature, biatch.

>>449622
There's a reason why a lot of vegetarians are utilitarianis m8, no need to be intellectually dishonest about it.

>>449674
In a "might is right" way you're right, but rape isn't a key to our biological survival. Eating however is, both animal and plant food.

>>449689
You very obviously can survive without eating meat.

>>449699
But we are designed to eat meat. We aren't necessarily designed to rape.

>>449674
they're two completely different things
and you didn't address what I said
are you going to go around forcing animals not to eat meat?

>>449572

It's not wrong for humans to eat animals. It's wrong for humans to cause animals unnecessary suffering.

It'a perfectly fine to raise animals for food, provided the environment they are raised in, and the manner of their death, is as free of suffering as reasonably possible. It's when animals are raised in conditions which cause them tremendous suffering for no reason other than convenience and human apathy that it becomes a moral issue.

>>448695
>I think animals should have less rights then humans. obviously they should have some torturing animals for fun should be illegal, certain practices in the meat industry should be banned

Basically this. I'd add protection of endangered wildlife for environmental and aesthetic reasons, but other than that, I think animal rights should be more basic than human rights because... animals are more basic than humans in their behavior. Just like a child doesn't have the same right to vote as an adult. It's a continuum.

Having said that, there will be developments. In the future, synthetic meats may become economically viable and much more appetizing than today. I doubt killing animals for meat will continue to be seen as ethically permitted in a few centuries to come if this happens.

>>449627
If humans are a part of nature, our laws are also an expression of nature, not just some artificial ghosts introduced from another dimension.

>>449572
>that would mean humans should change nature so that it's only herbivores

This isn't close to possible at the moment, but if humanity did become advanced enough in the future to accomplish this - a sustainable planet with no predators - would you be against it? After all, since humans are natural, it would seem the natural order of things.

>>449713
Mehmet please, we aren't "designed" to begin with.

>>449720
Of course not, they're too dumb to understand shit. You don't send kids to the electric chair, do you?

The only "rights" we should afford animals are ones used for the purpose of preserving biodiversity and public decency.

>>449306
>>449216
Found one of the preteens in this thread. I bet you refuse to cry too