Who is the best commander in history and why Khaleed ibn al-Walid?

>>404581
This meme again?

>>404603
Do eurocentrists think only western commanders are noteworthy?

>sandnegroes conquering sandnegroes

Tell me how this is in anyway significant? Alexander conquered more land in less time against a superior foe at a younger age.

>>404627
pls, he's good, but not the best.

your way is wrong as well

>>404627
>disagreeing with your claim makes one a "eurocentric" now
I don't think so

>>404581
>Who is the best commander in history
Alexander the great

the greatest that ever lived, without loss, against superior foe, in a couple of years.

>>404731
>but not the best
>Undefeated in over 100 battles

>not Saladin
>not Subotai
>not Hannibal
>not Caesar

>>404697
Alexander's maximum extent of his empire:
>5.4 million square kilometers
>Achaemenid Empire's maximum extent:
>8.6 million square kilometers

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>>404581
Charlie XII and Napoleon desu.

>>404697
Actually the Rashidun Caliphate collectively conquered, annexed, and held more land then Alexander did.

>>404761
>implying
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mu%27tah

>>404775
>be the best commander in history
>lose

>>404759
Alexander was the equivalent of a good quarterback who got handed a franchise-worthy team. Impressive, but he doesn't compare to someone like Genghis who managed to build a first-rate military from a background of abject poverty.

>>404793
You mean Genghis who just pillaged, slaughtered, and razed towns and cities and whose military acumen was vastly inferior to Subotai's, Hannibal's, and Alexander's own?

>>404581
literally who?

>>404791
When did Charles or Napoleon lose as commanders, not as a king or emperor?

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But sempai, that's not how you bring total war into the industrial era.

>>404801
Arab conquests, familia.

>>404813
>us
>their country
Weren't they all Americans though?

>>404800
Yeah, and also the one without whom Subotai would not have had any power, and without whom no future Khanates would have the foundation to rise.

>>404828
>whom without Subotai would not have had any power
Subotai could've done his own thing and Ghengis would've ended up accomplishing less then Attila did.

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>>404813
>Sherman
>Actually good

The best commanders of the US Civil war were McClellan, Lee, and Stonewall Jackson. Grant may well have been up there too but he was at first surrounded by incompetence before later realizing how great his numbers advantage truly was.

>>404838

>McClellan
>good

Nice joke friend.

>>404835
>Despite this close family association, Subutai may be considered proof that the Mongol Empire was a meritocracy. He was a commoner by birth, the son of Jarchigudai, who was supposedly a blacksmith. When he was 14 years old, Subutai left his clan to join Temujin's army, following in the footsteps of his older brother Jelme who had joined when he was 17 years old. and he rose to the very highest command available to one who was not a blood relative to Genghis.

Subotai was just some random blacksmith's son dude. If he never rose through the ranks in Genghis' forces he'd have probably died unknown to history in a fucking yurt somewhere.

>>404859
Or maybe have become the strategist and main commander for a different tribe of Mongols, nigger. Point is Genghis had little actual talent as a "commander" that makes him notable.

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>>404581
He really was one of the best, but THE best?
He wasn't even undefeated, and there are a lot of commanders who are. He was undoubtedly a genius with cavalry though.

Khalid had somewhat similar political problems like Hannibal, in that Umar fucking HATED his guts and demoted him immediately.
He was lucky actual field commanders like Abu Ubaida realized Muslim conquests would slow to a crawl without him in command in some capacity.

>Also pic related is easily the best depiction of him on film

>>404762
>Saladin
Saladin wasn't a great general, he was a great statesman. He lost quite a few battles, but still managed to keep his kingdom expanding through diplomacy and playing rivals off one another.

>>404838
Replace McKekan for Longstreet.

>>404854
Even after the end of the Civil War, Robert E. Lee highly emphasized he respected McClellan's skills as a commander and believed the man to be one of the most dangerous officers in the Union Army despite Grant's own abilities. Little Mac was exceptional at logistics, organization, and planning.

He just gets shitted on for wanting to have the proper time to concentrate and prepare himself amply when going after an objective and that since the Republican Party is the real winner of the Civil War, he gets politically shitted on and his own memoirs has him being self-depreciating despite people like Lee heavily respecting his ability.

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>>404824
In those days, it was very common to speak of one's state as one's "country". The federal government had a much smaller role vs. the states, and there was no mass media to bring about a national culture. In fact, before the Civil War, it was common to say "the United States are..." (as is grammatically logical) rather than "the United States is...".

A really good book on historical and modern regional differences in the US and Canada and their impact on history is American Nations by Colin Woodard, if you're interested. Highly recommend it.

>>404838
>Grant
>good commander.

Lincoln, pls.

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>>404790
>100,000-200,000 (Muslim sources)
>3,000 on the muslim side
>Draw
Why can't muslims accept defeat?

>>404979
You think that's nuts, Islamic scholars used to push the Battle of Nineveh against the Persians had them "outnumbered" by 15,000 vs "400,000" years ago.

>>404979
>>405000
The VAST majority of Arabs were illiterate and probably couldn't count over 1000. Its why early Islam put such a heavy emphasis on scholars and education.
Pretty sure they were still outnumbered though, probably like 10-15,000 vs 3000 or something

>>404881
>Or maybe have become the strategist and main commander for a different tribe of Mongols, nigger.

Meritocracy wasn't a mongol thing. Temujin won his war to unify the region because he was the only one disposed to recruit random blacksmith sons to lead his men instead of spoiled princes.

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I'd say that title goes to Sulla.

>>404776
>>404772
Why are you comparing dynasties against the achievements of one man?

>>404793
There were commanders, but noone was ever like Alexander he is today thought at military academies as a pinnacle of a commander, considering that he NEVER lost a battle, and his strategies against a superior foe are tactic ingenuity. Also he was a warrior in all his battles, enganging in combat leading the vanguards into decisive victories, rarely a commander did this.

>>405062
pffffff

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>No mention of Fabius Maximus.
For shame, /his/.

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>>405136
Begone, profligate.

Being undefeated in sports doesn't make you the GOAT. Being undefeated in battle doesn't make you the greatest commander of all time. You have to take luck into account as well.

That being said being undefeated does put you in the discussion.

>>405064
>comparing Khalid conquests to Alexanders
You Alexaboos really are the worst

>>405170
Stay mad that kebab will always be inferior to tzatsiki

In this thread about Khalid bin Walid i will leave this video here.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Q2eAkkzf2lc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

and her eis the translation of the nasheed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDk_mEE8_Lg

>>405351
fuck here is the first video

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Q2eAkkzf2lc

>>405019
Or, by Occham's Razor's disposition: they simply made shit up to further shore up their propaganda claims.

>>405062
Not that good of a commander but hell of a politician

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>>405351
>>405355
>nasheeds
What am I, a goat herder?

>>405123
>enganging in combat leading the vanguards into decisive victories, rarely a commander did this.
Actually, this was really, really fucking common.

As in every leader in classical greece.

And a lot of sucessor state kings.

And roman kings.

And then consuls. And legates.

And tribunes, a few emperors....

And that's not even getting into the gauls and germans.

>>404697
>sandnegroes
>literally scientifically sandcaucasians

stop trying to brainwash, /pol/

>>404755
This is what Islam is doing to historiography. You thought Jewish intellectualism was bad? Just wait until we move from a Cult of Critical Resentment to a Cult of Qurans.

>>405464
Wait, are you actually saying the moosies were outnumbering the Sassanids and ERE? Literally every single contemporary source that mentions their battles says otherwise.

>>404627
>eurocentrism

John Green detected.

>not Rommel

>>406167
No, what I'm saying however is the Muslim sources exaggerate and lie about numbers. A Persia that lost half its population or so to a major breakout of the plague while starvation was ramapant in the empire due to the Tigris and Euphrates rivers flooding and innedunating some of the most critical farming and argicultural heartlands of the empire are somehow magically pulling 50k-100,000 men in every major battle?

Its bullshit.

>>404838
McClellan's strategy was feeble. Lee and Jackson danced around him much like they did all the other stooges in the eastern theater prior to Grant.

Lee's Gettysburg campaign was stupid from the outset. And his tactical prowess showed lots of cracks after Jackson died.

Grant went through a lot of shit to crack Vicksburg. He was a drunk but a highly competent drunk.

>>404581
He didn't earn the title Africanus. Checkm8

>>408637
That was Ubayd
>>408398
They had a population of 150 million before the conquest, they could easily raise up 100k stacks in a war close to easily suppliable Mesopotamia.
Limiting factor in war is how much you can supply your troops.

>>405154
Fabius was an excellent tactician, and I'm glad you mentioned him, but he was hardly a military commander of the same caliber as the others here. If anything id' say Scipio over him.

>>404813
>>404813
Are you Fucking kidding me?

>>408915
Where are you getting 150 million from? I mean they had a big population no doubt, but 150mil seems a bit much still.

>>408398
Muslim scholars also claim that thousands of angels assisted in the battle of Badr. Not like, they gave the Muslims strength or resolve or whatever. Literally descended from the heavens to assist the Muslims against the Quaraysh.

>>409164
Persia had 50 million in the achmaedi era. Assuming a standard level of growth due to hot economies makes them a cool 50-100 mil at the time of the conquest. Afterwards they were 150 mil.
>>409220
I fail to see your point. The Angels were immanent to the believers

>>409247
I'm saying scholars aren't necessarily to be trusted for accuracy.

>>404581
He's definitely in the top tier. "Best in history" is gonna start a shitstorm no matter who you claim.

>ctrl+f
>no conrad von hotzendorf

Wat

>>404627
Does Khaleed ibn al-Walid sound european to you?

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I find Belisarius better tbqh.

>>404881
>Or maybe have become the strategist and main commander for a different tribe of Mongols, nigger

You don't become a commander in any tribe unless you have some noble blood in you, Mongol society didn't work like that back then.

>>409333
Yes

>>404890
Mah nigga. The Message was a great movie.

Also I thought Umar demoted him because he didnt want people to give Khalid too much praise or something like that.

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>>409938
>>404581
>>404890
why did they use western non-Muslim/non-arab actors to depict Khalid and other Islamic figures? seems kind of pathetic to me honestly

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>>404581
Seriously underrated commander. Sure, maybe the Romans and Persians were weakened and maybe accounts of numbers are inaccurate but its clear that they could both field much larger and superior armies than the Muslims.

>>410124
nvm.. i stand corrected. The Omar series uses Arab actors.
I was thinking of the Message- which was a movie on the life and companions of Muhammad that used hollywood actors

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I'm going to go with St. Michael the Archangel.

>literally held off the entire armies of hell

Trump card. No Muslim can compete with that.

>>409247
>>408915
You are making shit up. Persia had a population over 40 million before the final Byzantine-Persian War (602-629 AD). And that's BEFORE the war, and before the 7 to 8 years of plague that wiped out half the population and then civil wars for the throne that only stopped less then a year before the Arabs started raiding and attacking both Persian and Byzantine Mesopotamia.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

>>405062
"yes"

>>409938
Umar mos def had some beef with Khalid. The first thing he did after becoming Caliph was to demote him.
Then years later he had him entirely dismissed from the army, at the height of his conquests, because he allegedly bathed in wine according to Umar's spies in the army.

Its absolutely clear that he didn't like Khalid. If his publicly stated goal was to disassociate Islamic conquests from Khalid conquests, why was he trying SO hard to find shit on him? I mean, he literally had spies watching his every move. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the whole wine thing was made up either. Khalid didn't really fight him because doing so would upset the apple cart. Islamic history isn't as rosy and golden as they try to make it out to be.

>>410124
The Message had 2 versions. One was the Hollywood version in English with Anthony Quinn and Irene Pappas etc. The other was in Arabic with Arab actors. Simultaneously shot.

>>408398
>>410376
Of course they inflated the numbers. So did pretty much everyone that was outnumbered in a battle in the pre medieval world. Do you believe that Xerxes just casually tossed 200,000 men against 1-2,000 at Thermopylae? Fuck no.

However it's beyond doubt that Persian empires have always been able to field massive armies. Not necessarily good quality troops, but large numbers nonetheless, because of the way their empires were organized with satraps being required to send troops.
The plagues that hit Ctesiphon during Khosrau's reign fucked up Mesopotamia real bad. But their surrounding satrapies were comparatively unscathed.
So when Yazdgird finally fled, its hardly surprising that the satraps he asked for help were unable and unwilling to help. The long war with the Byzantines drained them, and then on top of that having to send troops to fight a bunch of raiding desert nomads left them disillusioned with Sassanid leadership.

>>409938
>>410516
Have any of you seen the Iranian movie on Muhammad that was supposed to come out this year? Is it any good? It looked like it had good production values, and the attention to detail is a given in a movie like that (discounting any Shi'a propaganda of course).

>>410516
>However it's beyond doubt that Persian empires have always been able to field massive armies.
By sources that generally do not define them, are given to fanciful bias, or contradicted in later material. Occasional large armies? Sure, always? And always based off the population of their actual empires? No, you can't make that correlation.
>Not necessarily good quality troops, but large numbers nonetheless
Not in 637 AD or beyond was that even remotely possible.
>The plagues that hit Ctesiphon during Khosrau's reign fucked up Mesopotmia real bad.
Khosrau Parviz was already disposed from power and dying or already dead when his successor and last surviving son signed the peace treaty returning the status quo between the Persians and Byzantines under Heraclius.
>But their surrounding satrapies were comparatively unscathed.
Bullshit.Al-tabari directly states the Tigris and Euphrates flooded and completely ruined all the agricultural and main farming lands of Persian Mespotamia alone which caused and further worsened by the fact it was followed by a massive drought leading to massive starvation. The plague itself turned eastwards from what is Iraq, Iran, and to most of Khorasan which constituted the majority of the Sassanian's military concentrations and manpower reserves.

They were in no fucking position to call up large armies with over half the population dead, intermediate civil wars, and starvation rampant for 8 years after Khosrau Parviz's death. The main manpower the Sassanians used in their armies were ethnic Iranians anyway, not the total inhabitants arbitrarily as some meat-grinder military fill-ins.

You have little idea what you are talking about or at least little understanding how badly Persia was ill prepared for a war or the reserves it actually had. There is maybe all of one time the Persians assembled a massive army and that was when they fought a joint-battle with the Byzantines against the Caliphate.

Temüjin.

>>410567
No but thanks for informing me m8

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>>404581
>You will never be so based that people actually call you Sayf Allāh al-Maslūl (the Drawn Sword of God)

>no Lennart Torstensson

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>>404581
D-do naval commanders count?

>>404627

Maybe, but I don't care, Subutai a best.

>>404581
>no brigadier general Morgan
Fucking goddamn yanks

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>>412884
I don't see why the wouldn't.

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Obviously

for some reason arab history is never spoke about in school. they talk about english, spanish, french, italian, greek, babylonian, sumerian, indian...never arab, except for the moors ofcourse or crusades. like saladin...but thats about it.

>>404581
No because it was Cyrus the Great.

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>>404581
sun tzu nigga