I am not a communist, but can we agree that Stalin was great?

>>3386995
Russia would've industrialized fast regardless of him, it started in the 1890s.

>>3387006
Russia was incredibly backwards compared to western European power. The Tsarist elite was unable and unwilling to industrialize

>>3387014
Oh so you're historically illiterate, thanks for mentioning that.

>>3386995
>be responsible for the deaths of nearly 60 million people
>great

>>3387084
Famine happens. Despite all his power, Stalin couldn't control weather

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>>3387120
you're joking right

>>3387130
How am I joking? Famine and administration mistakes are to blame for the millions of deaths.
You can't act as if Stalin did it on purpose

>>3387151
Stalin also killed a whole bunch of innocent people on purpose though retard

>>3387158
You can't modernize such a large country without purging the former ruling elite. Unfortunately, Soviet administration wasn't perfect, so some innocent died in that process

>>3387176
>wasn't perfect
>60 million deaths

Seems pretty far from perfect.

>>3387181
60 millions is exaggerated

>>3386995
Stalin didn't modernize Russia using his genius economic vision, he industralized it using forced labor and terror, Hitler did the same thing during the war, I don't think that should considered a great thing

>>3387240
>Hitler did the same thing during the war
Germany was already industrialized. Stalin had some catching up to do. Without him, Russia and ex-Russian states would be Africa-tier backwards today

>>3387260
I think anon referring to germany's "economic miracle" in the interwar years pol regularly talks about.

>>3387014
>who is Sergei Witte
You're an idiot.

>>3387084
Muh 100 gorillion! It was 10 to 20 million. Bad but holy shit not half of russia popultion as you posit

>>3387195
I'm sure you'll be posting your sources any minute now.

>>3387278
You claimed the 60 millions, buddy. Posting source is up to you

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>>3387260
>without him
Turkey, Poland, Hungary, Japan, South Korea, Yugoslavia and Romania industrialized without famines and purges of thousands of citizens.
>would be
Looking at the difference between modern Russia, Eastern Europe and Western Europe, I can't say that commies did something right.

>>3387195
>8 million from 1921 famine
>10 million from 1932 famine
>5 million from dekulakization
>1.5 million from the Great Purge
>26 million dead from the German invasion, in which Stalin sabotaged defensive efforts
>1.5 million from 1946 famine
>5 million killed in Gulag
>0.5 million Germans/Poles/Eastern Europeans killed in labour camps
>1 million German POWs killed
>Exaggerated

Fuck off back to /leftypol/

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>>3386995
>>3387120
>>3387176
>>3387275
>>3387195

>>3387323
Yes, all these numbers are exaggerated.

>blaming Stalin for people killed during the war

>>3387319
>South Korea
They purged hundrets of thousands after Korean War. What are you talking about?

>modern Russia, Eastern Europe and Western Europe
because Western Europe industrialized much earlier than Eastern Europe. And communism has nothing to do with this, if Stalin was an nationalist, he would have done the same

>>3387323
>26 million die in an unprecedented act of aggression by ebemy bent on a war of racial annihilation
>this is stalins fault
I dont deny stalin was idiotic in the supreme for not seeing the huge signs on the wall and put in his hands. But that was a huge exercise in self delusion rather than a deliberate attempt to kill his subjects and turn back a decade of industrial progress. This is literally blaming the "victim" though dtalin is not a sympathetic victim

>>3387084
>60 million
Where do you get your numbers form? The highest estimates for the total loss of life in the entire lifespan of SU caused by themselves seems to be form 3 million to 20 million.

60 million is roughly half of total soviet population during Stalin`s rise to power and I doubt that many people were killed off because no society can effectively function after losing half of its population.

>>3387357
>They purged hundrets of thousands after Korean War
Where is evidence?
>much earlier
Just like Japan and Korea, yep?

>>3387323
Highest gulag estimates are around 1.5 million dead. Additionally 1921 was effectively caused by post-war collapse in soviets.

>>3387352
>all these numbers are exaggerated.
>offers no proof
>>3387360
>know the Nazis want to annihilate you
>send them loads of resources
>continue even after they break the terms of the M-R pact
>know they're invading you soon
>Deliberately ignore it and forbid others from taking necessary precautions
>refuse to fight back until days after the invasion begins
>scorch the earth then Nazis advance
>"he dindu nuffin stop victim blaming!!!"

>>3387376
1921 famine was literally caused by the ongoing civil war.
>>3387402
>none of these numbers are exaggerated.
>offers no proof
>refuse to fight back until days after the invasion begins
>you should fight enemy back even when you are not at war
>scorch the earth then Nazis advance
>not giving your enemy resources to kill you is helping him

>>3387323
>5 million from dekulakization
>10 million from 1932 famine
>5 million killed in Gulag
I hope you realize that all three are connected? When people talk about 10-12 million victims of collectivisation they include there victims of the famine and people killed during the dekulakization.

Anyone could have industrialized Russia. Even the tsarists could have. It, however, takes a real madman to industrialize Russia whilst handicapping the conditions that make it possible, namely agricultural productivity and the labour surplus it brings from superfluous agricultural labour migrating to cities.

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just caught in the undertow , just caught in the , caught in the undertow

IVE
BECOME SO NUUUUUUMB
I CANT FEEL YOUUUU THERE

>>3387445
>Even the tsarists could have.
So why didn't they?

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>>3387462
>So why didn't they?
One of them tried. Then he was assassinated by communists

>>3387357
I really want to see evidence of "South Korea purged hundrets of thousands"

>>3386995
Soviet Union 1926 - 147 million
Soviet Union 1937 - 162 million (that's after the genocides)

Russia 2002 - 145 million
Russia 2010 - 143 million

Current Russia is better at "genociding" their own people than Stalin.

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>>3387462
They did! Is nobody reading this thread?

>>3387476
Alexander II was a brainlet who didn't do anything regarding industrialization. That was the ministers under Nicholas II.

>>3387352
>your spies and multiple sources report an incoming German invasion
>throw them in Gulag
>German forces mass on your border
>it's just a training exercise guys
>Germans invade
>It's a rogue general guys Hitler wouldn't do that
Looks like his fault to me.

>>3387462
Because they could not *at the time*. By the time russian industrialisation properly took off they were at war with the central powers.
I'm not of course defending the tsarist system, no doubt it delayed industrialisation by a significant margin, but that's not to say that industrialisation could only have occurred under one man who by all accounts bungled everything else. It is more a credit to the soviet spirit that it achieved what it did in spite of Stalin.

>>3387483
Russia has 12 births per 1000 population (Germany has 8), USSR had 40 births per 1000 population in 20s (Germany had 20 in 20s).

>>3387501
>your agents in Germany report that Germans will attack "next week" every month since late 1940
>you dont trust them
>last report from June was right and they actualy attack
>brainlets on Bulgarian message board for chinese cartoons call you stupid 76 years later

>>3387521
How do we know this?

>USSR had 40 births per 1000 population in 20s (Germany had 20 in 20s)

>>3386995
>I am not a communist
Hah.

>>3387497
>Frees serfs, promotes education, creates zemstvo system
>None of this laid the foundation to industrializing Russia and building the Trans Siberian railroad

Wew lad, he was a saint.

>>3387527
http://demoscope.ru/weekly/2003/0103/tema02.php
http://demoscope.ru/weekly/2013/0559/tema02.php

Information about German birth rates in 20s I found in Google.

>>3387532
He explicitly opposed industrialization out of fear it would create a bourgeoise class. Learn history.

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>>3387532
>freeing serfs
>good

>>3387525
Lel even chan brainlets would do a better job than him.

>>3387553
You kinda need the labour surplus that bonded agricultural labour cannot provide to industrialise
But by all means, why not have Russia remain a quaint backwater?

>>3387568
Freeing the serfs doomed Russia in the end.

>>3387579
Doomed Russia to what?

>>3387586
Destruction.

>>3387593
So what is currently residing in its geographical location?

>>3387596
A corpse.

>>3387520
That one man didn't necessary needed to be Stalin, but somebody who is a strong leader and can push through unpopular reforms. Tsar was evidently unable to do that

>>3387602
A corpse that seems to be doing relatively good for itself.
>>3387611
If there was one thing the party in general did not shy away from it was unpopular policy. There was whole central committee and politburo of party functionaries with far more practical knowledge and qualifications for state administration than Stalin.

>>3387546
>He opposed industrialization
No he didn't, he opposed private interests industrializing Russia leading to a bourgeoise state. He didn't oppose himself industrializing Russia.

>>3387622
>doing good for itself
>Chechen shits and Jews in charge of the country

>>3387525
Ya but what about the millions of combat deaths he caused because he purged his competent officers?

>>3387084
>60 million people
Less than 5 million, dummy

>>3386995
In the sense that being brutal works and perhaps Hitler was better suited to the german national character

>>3387717
>implying there was no problems in the Caucasus region before 1992
>ethnic russians still having more total billionaires and billions in comparison the jewish billionaire population

>>3387845
>implying there was no problems in the Caucasus region before 1992
It should've been purged.
>ethnic russians still having more total billionaires
Like who? I bet you believe (((Prokhorov))) or (((Abramovich))) are Russians.

>>3387894
And the tsars had quite a long time to do so. They did not. If anything, Stalin did more to that end than any tsar.


http://www.pravdareport.com/russia/economics/05-11-2013/126059-russian_oligarchs-0/

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>>3387176

>>3387176
>let's kill all the smart people and put retards in charge

>>3387925
the russian ruling class was not particularly smart. But it is true the smart ones of Russia did end up dead anyways.

>>3386995
Fuck off leftypol

>>3387374
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre

>>3387920
XD

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>>3387352
>>3387360
>>3387429

STALIN DINDU NUFFIN! HE A GOOD BOY!

>>3387084
That's okay

He should've killed more.

>>3387319
Siuth Korea literally slaughtered hundreds of thousands of its own citizens up till the 80's.

>>3388383

you mean kind of like the north did and is still doing today?

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>>3388372
Indeed. DO IT AGAIN UNCLE JOE

>>3388389
Yes.

>>3388372
>>3388484
t. Euronymous

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>>3387357
>Western Europe industrialized much earlier than Eastern Europe.
Bohemia was one of the most industrialized regions of Europe, and far more industrialized than Austria proper.

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>>3388515
To expand on this: Czechoslovakia had a higher GDP per capita than Austria before they became communist. 1948 is used as a starting point because that's the year Czechoslovakia became communist.

>>3388523
To be fair, how much this is communism and how much this is 70% of the world economy cutting one economy off while boosting the other is quite important.

>>3387084

Great is not the same as really nice.

>>3388563
There was significant trade between comunist and capitalist countries
The USSR required US grain to survive

>>3388563
Communists were the ones who cut themselves off. They also forced the Eastern European nation not to accept the Marshall plan.

>>3388574
>significant
> 5% of GDP

>>3388607
>5% of GDP
>pre-globalism
>in an otherwise autarkic nation
>not significant

>>3387341
This but unironically

>>3388372
>It's only cool when we do it

>But remember the 200 gorillion Indians xD

>>3388649
Autism