Could fascism have happened without liberalism having happened first?

>>3379100
No, because fascism was born out of rejection of liberalism. If liberalism doesn't come into existence then neither can its reaction.

>>3379100
Yes, fascism was first formulated in the Roman Empire.
The only arguments against this are circular, i.e. "Fascism is explicitlyagainst liberalism and communism which didn't exist" which is fucking retarded in the extreme.

>>3379100
Maybe, modern fascism was triggered as a hostile response to outside forces while acting as a "civil unifier", it's unsure if it really mattered if said outside forces were liberal or not. One one hand you could say the existence of USSR argues against it, while the fact that the west allowed fascism to be a thing to begin with argues for it.

>>3380480
>Yes, fascism was first formulated in the Roman Empire.
That wasn't fascism. It's like calling hunter-gather societies 'communism'.

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>>3380411
This. Fascism is strange because its often billed as Communisms arch nemesis as seen in WW2 by Hitler, but in terms of actual ideological make up, Fascism is like Anti Liberalism and it spawns from Liberalism's failures in the early 20th century such as the great depression and WWI.
Both Communism and Fascism are attempts at creating an alternative to Liberalism but they seek to do it through different mediums, Fascism through collectivism, and Communism through Socialism. However in the process of this they split away from each other on the grounds of whether inequality and hierarchy is natural or not.
In short neither Fascism or Communism could exist without Liberalism before them, but Liberalism will always have the anti thesis of fascism (socially) and Communism (economically).

>>3379100
Unlikely, it was a reaction to degenerate anything goes liberalism and its rising in people for much the same reason

>>3380411
This

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>>3380501
The Romans weren't cave men, you fucking idiot.
Crack a fucking book some time, huh?

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>>3380480
>Yes, fascism was first formulated in the Roman Empire.

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>>3382367
>it has all the defining features, qualities and policies of fascism
>they didn't call it "fascism" at the time, therefore it isn't fascism

wew lad

>>3382353
>reading comprehension
He's not calling them caveman he's using a simile.

>>3382353

Can you not fucking read?

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>>3382386
>he put communism aside anarchism

>>3382403
>>3382408
That simile is fucking retarded.

>>3379100
No, not just because fascism came about as an explicit dismissal of liberalism, but because liberalism is the granddaddy of all revolutionary ideologies and fascism is essentially right-wing and pro-modernity revolution.

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>>3382444
I know it's confusing for brainlets like yourself, but they are on the same TIER, not the same TEAM.

>>3382386
>it has all the defining features, qualities and policies of fascism

Except that it didn't since these features didn't exist until the 19th century.

>>3382472
The Roman Empire was in it's own time both right-wing and pro-modernity.
>but modernity is specifically post-feudal
Yeah, well, my brainlet, feudalism was the regression of progress due to the collapse of Rome's hegemony and culture.

>>3382481
There's that circular reasoning fag talk again.

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>>3382475
So something like this?

>>3382500
>pre-enlightenment societies
>left or right wing

>pre-modern societies
>somehow pro-modern

If the concepts behind the ideology don't exist yet it hardly makes sense to say that they espoused the ideology.

>>3382500
So the Roman Empire was capitalist, right?

>>3382386
Good picture, wholeheartedly agree comrade! Say, didn't I see you back at Berkely? Sure did good punching those inn- i mean nazis!

>>3382513
That's exactly the opposite of what I'm saying. Jesus, man.
NOT THE SAME TEAM, THE SAME TIER. TIERS REPRESENT QUALITY, THEY ARE EQUIVALENT ONLY IN QUALITY.

>>3380501
>>3382367
They didn't call of fascism because the concept of nationalism had not yet been properly codified, but the Roman empire did have all the hallmarks of what you and I would call fascism.

1: was the product of a "nationalist" uprising, as members of the military revolted and drove the ruling conservatives out of government on grounds that their decision was rooted in the good of Rome itself.

2: it was the worst of all worlds compromise: The Uber wealthy got to keep their plantations and privilege, the urban poor got their welfare state, all the real work was done by second-class citizens, and it was all paid for through foreign conquest. It worked fine as long as they had other people to pillage, but once they ran out of enemies worth conquering (other people's money) they had no one left to use that gigantic military on except each other.

3: The empire was even more socially repressive then the republic, with strict laws punishing adultery and exiling women for immoral behavior. It was only the upper class who could get away with degeneracy.

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>>3382526
~t. triggered right-wing snowflake that can't hold up to a beatin'

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Fascism is at least as old as Plato's Republic.

>>3382538
I hate r/pol/ faggotd as much as you desu
But I am a triggered libertarian, yes.

>>3382534
>all the hallmarks

No it didn't, these hallmarks didn't exist until the 19th century. It's like calling ancient Athens liberal. Fascists were inspired by ancient Rome just as liberals were inspired by Classical Athens, but it's silly to call pre-modern societies followers of modern ideologies.

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>>3382386
>I support ideologies whose dialectics are founded on false premises and have never actually worked

>>3382528
Your missing the point, pinko, both are the same shit in quality and purpose. the funny thing is in history most of the anarckiddies ends backstabbed for the tankies every single time and today you can see them support them again, when they will learn?

>>3382628
Like marxism?

>>3382644
English as a second language? You're arguing my point against me. Take a deep breath and concentrate, Pedro.

>>3382599
>I have autism please be patient with me

>>3382386
who reversed the order of these?

>>3382628
I've worked since I was 15, which was 17 years ago.
I've worked in factories a good deal of that as well. Unlike bitch nigga office-drones like you.
This reminds me of HRC calling bernie bros "basement dwellers with no jobs". It's so out of touch as to be cringey in the extreme. You sure showed THEM, grandma

>>3382664
Relax man, My point is, why would you put commies and anarkidies in the same tier when they gladly would kill eachother if they had the opportunity?

>>3382745
Because it's Tier and not Team. They are entirely different concepts.
Roman Empire and Persian Empire were on the same tier and warred with each other regularly.

tier:
(noun)
a row or level of a structure, typically one of a series of rows placed one above the other and successively receding or diminishing in size.
"a tier of seats"
synonyms: row, line; More
one of a number of successively overlapping ruffles or flounces on a garment.
a level or grade within the hierarchy of an organization or system.
"companies have taken out a tier of management to save money"
synonyms: grade, gradation, echelon, rank, stratum, level, rung on the ladder
"the most senior tier of management"

>>3382832
So they are cool because both are anti capitalists, even when their ways to achieve socialism are in mutual contradiction.

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>>3382685
>Working in a factory makes me an authority on economics and politics
>I can't argue with what you said so I'll attack who I think you are
>I need to namedrop Bernie so all my Berniebros know I'm cool

>>3379100
man that picture is a bit uneasy

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>>3383333
1. you claimed I didn't know shit about work because I have never worked, which leads to
2. you claimed I didn't know shit about work, which is exactly the claim you have against me right now
3. now you're just embarrassing the entire board

>>3382685
Are you a commie or a socdem?

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>>3383433
I claimed that the ideologies that you support have never worked you retard, learn how grammar works. The subject was ideologies, that's what your meme was about. I literally never claimed you don't know shit about work. /his/ isn't meant for people who are actually illiterate.

>>3383474
Personally, I'm a Syndicalist.

>>3383559
That's poor sentence structure on your part.
I can see how you intended it now, but you start it with I, and it's not clear if you mean me or the ideologies, and grammatically speaking, on a technical level, that predicate absolutely attaches to the primary subject, me.

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>>3383605
>>3382685
>>3382386
Cool story.

>>3383636
>USSR
>Liberal

The USSR was a totalitarian state, just like Nazi Germany. Modern liberalism has nothing to do with military dictatorships.

>>3379100
Whats that pic

>>3383605
Well that explained, then why do you seems to support tankies?

>>3383776
I prefer them to Progressive, Moderate and Conservative Liberals that dominate western democracy.
That's like choosing a punch to the teeth or the balls. I prefer teeth.

>>3382386
>All the defining features of fascism
>"If relativism signifies contempt for fixed categories and those who claim to be the bearers of objective immortal truth, then there is nothing more relativistic than Fascist attitudes and activity. From the fact that all ideologies are of equal value, we Fascists conclude that we have the right to create our own ideology and to enforce it with all the energy of which we are capable." - Benito Mussolini
hmmm

>>3379100
No. Fascism is just a violent propertarian reaction against socialism that can generally only arise in liberal societies.

In the late Russian Empire these interests were defended by the Black Hundreds, effectively a fascist organization that massacred Jews and Tatars and broke up labor movements, but could never take power within the Russian Empire because its whole purpose was to secure the rule of the Tsar, the church, and the aristocracy.

In liberalism, the divorce of political and economic power makes fascist rule possible.

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>>3383817
Choose wisely

>>3383955
>Fascism is just a violent propertarian reaction against socialism that can generally only arise in liberal societies.
>Russian Empire

>>3383902
Because fascism differs so much in ideology and policy it's only understandable as a movement, a specific type of popular reaction that protects a ruling economic from internal and external threats.

The "socialism" of Hitler and Mussolini was purely aesthetic and entirely anticommunist. It was defined by cooperation and promotion of the national bourgeoisie, which is therefore no socialism at all. Truly anticapitalist elements within both fascist movement. were very quickly suppressed. It's no coincidence that Hitler massacred the Strasserists within his own party before going after communists and Jews.

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>>3383817
We need more Franco style mass graves.
>pic releated

>>3383966
I'll clarify. Fascist movements CAN arise in illiberal class society, but they can only take control of governmental power in a liberal economic context or during an ongoing socialist revolution. These are the only circumstances in which bourgeois class power can be wrested away or seriously threatened by a militant labor movement, to which EVERY iteration of fascism exists in reaction against.

>>3383986
But some of fascist movements being under the influence of socialist ideals, by example, Mussolini and Nicola bombacci were socialists, however they later changed their ideals in favor of a class collaboration.

>>3383977
Please see image of pepe with a MAGA hat threatening "leftists" and then crying like a bitch when they fight back

You know, right wing death squads are heroes, but antifa are criminal thugs.
Yeah, I see you, you little intellectually dishonest RAT

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>>3384318
>>3384318
bahaha.

I'm an Iraq war veteran, combat MOS 13b. I served a country I now hate.

Communist like yourselves are literally weak pathetic animals who lack the means to do the violence necessary for your fucked up system. You beg your Stalin daddy to lead the way. You beg people like me to do the dirty work. In reality, you are a product of democracy. "I voted for Bernie". Your idea of action is pathetic. You lack pride, you lack love of yourself. You are full of envy and hate for those who have more than you.

So please, start the revolution. I am armed and ready, and it wouldn't be the first time I was shot at.

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>>3384559
>insert navy seal copypasta

yeah okay, kiddo

>>3384559
>Communist like yourselves are literally weak pathetic animals who lack the means to do the violence necessary
>please don't hit me again, antifa, POLICE POLICE HAAAALP

lel

>>3384744
Do you have a conceal and carry? I don't go to protests, they are a waste of time. Protests, voting, and dressing up like a nigger loving faggot does not change the world.

So please, try to seize my property. I am a land lord after all. Please try to do it yourself.

>>3384758
Oh, you admit to being a usurous jew landlord? Degenerate parasite.

/his/ needs to be fucking purged. What an embarrassment of a board.

>>3383617
You lost dude just accept it

>>3379100
Tyranny happens all the time.

>>3380533
Both are collectivistic, and lots of fascist policies could be deemed "socialist". I'd say that they have diferent perspectives on hierarchy and conflict.

Communism:
1. Focus on conflitc within society (class warfare).
2. Believes hierarchy can be done away with.
3. Focus on economic causes for hierarchy, conflict and progress.

Fascism:
1. Focus on conflict between societies (racial, ethnic and national conflicts of interest).
2. Believes that hierarchy is both inevitable and better when it's clear and strict.
3. Focus on genetic and/or cultural causes for hierarchy, conflict and progress.