Communism

>>3379045
Someone has to lead, which requires them to wield power, which draws the power hungry, who are not true believers.

It only works in groups small enough to have a leadership position be of little power. As soon as the leader can command a group large enough to enslave the rest it goes to shit.

>>3379063
Yeah, communism works well in very small groups, but the means to maintaining control of a large population's entire economy inherently leads to tyranny. Communism doesn't "work" or "not work", it just requires limits and the right circumstances.

>>3379045
>it sounds so good on paper,
it actually doens't, Marx's writing is terrible and his idea is more fantastical than leviathan's magic city

>>3379170
Size isn't even the main issue. It's the fact that humans are a hierarchical species. There needs to be Chads and Virgins in society, the only way you can "eliminate class" is if A.I. comes in and fucking kills everybody

>>3379045
if you want an actual answer instead of these dumb fucks retreading cliches spouted by hicks who've never read anything other harry potter, check this out: https://endnotes.org.uk/issues/4/en/endnotes-preface

>>3379200
>"hehe all you goyim are so stupid"
>can't even form his own argument so he resorts to posting a link to something nobody would click

>>3379045
Because it was never tried. The only countries that have ever called themselves communist are the USSR, which is about as communist as the DPRK is democratic, and its offshoots.

It just fine in fucking stone age societies. Not in modern ones.

>>3379045
It doesn't sound good on paper
>no individuality
>no ownership
>no freedom
>waiting in a soup and bread line for food

Because as marx envisioned it as a small community I.e. A street in a city or a small town

Marx wasn't retarded just everyone that seems to read it are

>>3379230
this should be idiotic to anyone who's even skimmed the wikipedia page for marx or the most famous fucking sentence from the manifesto

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>this fucking thread

>>3379282
Socialism simply doesn't work.

>>3379221
People have tried to achieve it many times and it has always been a disaster.
It's the ideology of retards.

>>3379045
Turns out you need a highly educated workforce for that to happen, in which case the demands for better quality of life will slowly socialize the system.

an ideology doesnt have to work, its an ideology

if you mean in practice it doesnt bring you the desired result in case of "communism" its because it was a proletariat dictatorship and dictatorships are more likely corrupt than other forms of governments

It would work if a population was like...50 people.

>>3379045
Ever heard of New Harmony? First time it was tried and it failed. It was later BTFO by the author's son.

>"All cooperative schemes which provide equal remuneration to the skilled and industrious and the ignorant and idle must work their own downfall, for by this unjust plan, they must of necessity eliminate the valuable members and retain only the improvident, unskilled, and vicious"

All socialists should write this 100000 times in their journal to memorize.

>>3379282
>can't debate his shitty failed ideology
>posts a picture instead

>>3380184
>People have tried to achieve it many times
No. It was tried once, in Russia, where it briefly succeeded in the Free Territory before being crushed by the fascist Bolsheviks. Apart from that, the closest example is probably Cuba, which might have actually turned out communist except that American economic sanctions forced them to make their country more Soviet-like in order to maintain relations with the USSR or face complete global isolation. The USSR, PRC, DPRK, etc, have never been communist and were never intended to be communist.

>>3380248
One family tops.

>>3379197
I love how "chads" and "virgins" has replaced "alphas" and "betas".

>>3380344
wait until the rest of the internet catches up.

>state capitalism was real communism xD

>>3379045
It doesn't sound good on paper. Bakunin said as much.

>>3379282
>Um, actually: the post

Communism has never worked.

Marxism has never worked.

Socialism has never worked.

And it never will work.

>>3379063
This. A large portion of "communist leaders" were opportunistic, power-hungry sociopaths. The moment you form a dictatorship, you stop representing any kind of ideology other than your own (whose main goal is to secure your own position).

>>3379221
>The only countries that have ever called themselves communist are the USSR, which is about as communist as the DPRK is democratic, and its offshoots.

They never called themselves "communist", however. They called themselves socialist, since communism was the political elite's purported goal (which is automatically bullshit the moment you resort to autocracy).

Had those nations' statesmen called themselves communist, it would have pretty much given the people a go-ahead to revolt and forcefully pull the plug on the project.

>>3380867
Ah, correction. "Had those nations' statesmen called THEIR COUNTRY communist, ..."

The politicians may communists at any time, since all that term requires is that they are building socialism with the end goal of communism.

>>3380800
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetition_(rhetorical_device)

Communism is the end result of socialism. A huge portion of socialist systems are modelled after the tenets of Marxism.

Non-Marxist socialism is also a thing.

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>>3380184

This. >>3380206 The workers' revolution also needs to be a peaceful one, since political violence is a breeding ground for sociopaths in government and thus, dictatorship.

You also need to realize that going directly from feudalism to socialism without the middle stage of capitalism will simply not work. The culture shock is simply too huge, and the groundwork for socialism is simply gone without capitalism.

It also shouldn't be forgotten that Marx envisioned socialism to take place in maybe France or Germany, not in agrarian Russia or China. Your comment of "it's the ideology of retards" is spot-on, but for the wrong reasons. You can't unify a nation by simply killing off the portions of it that you don't like - that consolidates your power, sure, but if you kill off the intelligentsia and give your guard-dogs the permission to make away of the "bourgois" elements in your nation, you're just enforcing the rule of the strong, not the weak.

I hate posting fitting quotes from famous people but he's not wrong, and it fits.

>>3380234
Proletarian dictatorship means a government of the (working class) people for the (working class) people. In Marxist methodology, capitalist societies live in a state of capitalist dictatorship, since the political power is consolidated in the hands of the powerful and the elite. Most (if not all) Marxist-Leninist polities have failed in securing this, I think, and it's totally valid to consider them "not true socialists". Was the dictatorship of the proletariat achieved? To an extent, but the rule of the powerful has persisted in the form of red guards and single-party rule.

Though it could always be argued that the nature of power doesn't change, so is it even possible to be achieved? And if so, for how long?

>>3380288
Seconded.

I recall someone saying Hitler admired Stalin for "building a form of Bolshevik Fascism". Can someone source or confirm/refute this?

The problem with Communism isn't as much that it's a good idea, the problem is Marxist historicism.

The idea that history is deterministic is pure ideology and basically a religion.

>>3379045
>How come it sounds so good on paper, but it has never worked
Because communism is an utopia.
Sounds beautiful but impossible to realize.

>>3379045
How does it even sound good on paper? It boils down to "lets steal shit and split the loot".

Who the fuck think that sounds "good on paper"? Motherfucking blackbeard?

>>3380800
>>3380178

There are a number of highly prosperous states where socialist parties have been in control for most of post-war history.

Universal basic income is on the legislative agenda and bond holders could give a fuck and companies don't plan on fleeing. Laws literally demand that unions and workers hold seats on company boards. The sky hasn't fallen.

Migration is a problem in places like Sweden and Denmark, but that's even more true in the US.

Socialism works fine in moderation.

Communist dictatorships and vanguard parties only ever popped up in the third world or dystopian shithole like warlord era China, or in collapsing states like 1917 Russia and 1919 Hungary.

>>3379045
It sounds good to the weak because the weak will never be able to compete against the strong. Strong people want the government to get out of the way, weak people want as much government redistribution as possible. At the end of the day humans aren't equal and never will be so trying to force us to be equal will only end up with shitty results

>>3381150

t. never read Marx

>>3381303

People who post "le weak human" meme are the first one what would die of hunger if they had to endure actual competition.

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>>3379045
>sounds so good on paper

>>3381150
And capitalism boils down to "let's enslave people and split the loot." What's your point?

>>3381150
>lets steal back the things that we have produced and had stolen away

doesn't sound too bad desu

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>>3381733
If you are a pirate

>>3381712
>split the loot
>capitalism

Youre obviously not a very good capitalist.

>>3379045
It's never been attempted. People who never read Marx are completely ignorant of economic stage theory. One must transition from feudalism to capitalism, then socialism and finally communism. When the Bolshevik revolution occurred, Russia was still a feudal society.

The only countries that can transition to socialism now are the UK, Germany, and USA.

It doesn't sound good on paper. Even a completely morally correct but authoritarian government is better than a very small but corrupt one.

>How come it sounds so good on paper
But it doesn't.

>>3381291
>There are a number of highly prosperous states where socialist parties have been in control for most of post-war history.

And how many of those states have seized the means of production?

>>3381758
Capitalism invariably results in collusion between the elites. Competition is bad for business.

>>3381795
Corruption isn't an inherent part of communism. Rather, it's a common trope among LARPing 20th and 21st century juntas. You see the exact same behavior in nominally democratic and autocratic kleptocracies.

>>3381765
>The only countries that can transition to socialism now are the UK, Germany, and USA.

Germany, France and the northern countries pretty much ARE socialist countries. But they don't call it socialism bc that's a dirty word so we invented the "welfare state".

USA will never transition to socialism because the majority of the murricans are brainwashed into thinking they they will make millions of dollars one day by the magic of capitalism. Just look at this thread as proof. Majority of murrifats don't even know what socialism is but they still get triggered when you mention it.

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>>3381826
>Germany, France and the northern countries pretty much ARE socialist countries.
Not for long tbqh

>>3379045
>How come it sounds so good on paper,
Because you're a broke-dick faggot who doesn't realize your property gets redistributed too, not just the property of porky a cartoon communist strawman.

Picture your car getting seized by the communist vanguard and tell me with a straight face that you still think "communism works on paper".

>>3379221
*hurls shit smeared brick*

>>3381826
>Germany, France and the northern countries pretty much ARE socialist countries.
>literally lead by right wing governments
Hell no.

>>3381879
>Merkel
>Macron
>right wing
In which fucking world

>>3381856
t. never read anything about communism except cold war propaganda

>>3381895
I've read plenty about communism you dumb shit red. A car is a means of production by any metric, and only a dishonest communist (lol redundancy) would claim otherwise.

>>3381893
>Macron literally screwing over labor laws as we speak
>Merkel is literally leading a centre-right party
For fuck sake, not even the roses are in the power so how can you pretend those countries are socialist?

>>3381893

In fucking Europe you American cunt.

You Americans only have extreme right (Democrats) and pants on head retards (Republicans), Europe actually has a political spectrum.

Want a proper leftist? Corbyn & Schultz are fucking leftists. Merkel & Macron are center right.

>>3382068
I am not American and I stand by my word
Europe has no political spectrum
Except in a couple of Eastern countries, genuine right-wing parties parties are so limited both in political representation and raw numbers that they may very well be considered random sects full of nobodies
Much like the US, Europe only has 2 political orientation: leftist and centrist
The primary opposition in pretty much every western european country is leftist while the ruling parties are centrist

>>3380178
>things are "SYMPLY" this way
The literal opinion of retards. Not only presuming to know why things happen in human history, but also claiming that they are simple.

>>3381816
Did you read my post? I didn't call communism, I was saying a less powerful government, even if corrupt, is better than a large (such as a socialist) government, even if the latter is more moral.

>>3381150
t. I like to have opinion on topics I'm completely clueless about

>>3382142
Didn't call communism inherently corrupt*

>>3381826
Social democracies are NOT socialist governments.
They're TOTALLY different

>>3382097
Polish were so rich under the soviets except they were fucked and literally didn't have food on shelves. It would work if the entire world didn't have a trade war against communism

>>3381856
It seems like you're the one confused about what wealth redistribution implies. Since you somehow think that
>your property gets redistributed too
is a shocker

>>3381939
A car is the product of a mean of production

>>3382142
> Even a completely morally correct but authoritarian government is better than a very small but corrupt one.
>I was saying a less powerful government, even if corrupt, is better than a large (such as a socialist) government, even if the latter is more moral.

>>3382174
Moral is entirely subjective
What if your authoritarian government's moral shifts and isn't yours anymore?

>>3379045
>concentrate all governing power to a few select people with the only restrictions being set by each other
>expect everyone else to do their part for the 'common good' while you redistribute everything they produce, taking away any feeling of accomplicement
Gee, i dunno

>>3379045

Communism only sounds good on paper if you're a fucking idiot.

Marx was a NEET his whole life and predictably his shitpost didn't go over too well when people took it seriously.

>>3382142
That's actually the opposite of what you said. Even your rephrased argument is wrong though, because communism is not characterized by an authoritarian government. You're confusing communism with the autocracies of the USSR and PRC.

>>3382068
Merkel I could understand, Macron seems a bit more difficult to point on center right. Dude basically got the centrist politicians of his new government in a month's time with some - well timed you could say - affairs about fictitious jobs lmao.

I'm still fucking laughing over the fact that Bayroux didn't even last a month. Then again, I ain't laughing when the National Assembly's in a deadlock between a party who won't compromise with others and consist of retards voting against their owns bills.

>>3381939
Communism isn't about smashing down doors and taking people's stuff. It's about paying people relative to their actual contribution to a business. How much value would a company lose if its owner (who isn't involved in the operation of the company at all) simply disappeared? How much would it lose if its most productive assembly line worker left? If the latter is more than the former, why does the owner get paid hundreds or even thousands of times more than the grunt? Communism is not and has never been making sure that each and every person has exactly the same amount of stuff. It's about making sure that profits are distributed equitably to those who create them, rather than being siphoned off by people who add no value to the company.

>>3380945
Even with this in mind, Marx’s theory of historical developmen (Dialectical materialism) it was disproved during Marx’s lifetime and, like the Ptolemaic theory of the universe, ceased to be scientific. History did not progress as predicted by Marxian theory.

>>3382290
>How much would it lose if its most productive assembly line worker left?
Not much
They'll just invest in machines and pay 2 third worlders a dollar a day to make the work of 10 communist workers

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>>3382290
you seems to forget marxism is not a pacifist ideology, but founded in the armed revolution to achieve the "workers dictatorship". revolution is a proletarian deed in marxism.

>>3382302
And then the 10 communist workers won't buy his product because, guess what, they have no work thus no money!

Seems someone doesn't even know about the basic master-slave dialectic.

>>3379045
Because people are too stupid to realize what it would take to make everyone have equal outcomes.

>>3382290
Communism is, and always has been, about setting Level X, and then killing anyone above Level X.

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>>3382321
>And then the 10 communist workers won't buy his product because, guess what, they have no work thus no money!
Nobody actually cares about communist workers
We live in a globalized world
If our communist workers can't buy these products or chose to boycott, good for them, there are plenty of people eager to become consumers in their stead
Solidarity between workers around the planet is a meme, only western kids are so deluded to think it could ever be achievable
The rest of the world abandoned this vision in the late 70s, including "traditional" third world marxists stronghold

>>3382302
If automation is cheaper than labor, the company should automate. If labor somewhere else is cheaper, those workers should also demand fair wages. You're also greatly overestimating the cost of labor. The cost difference between an iPhone made in mainland China and one made in the US would be less than 1%.

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>>3379045
Capitalism:
How come it sounds so good on paper, but it has never worked, or has it in some cases? What is the closest thing to the capitalist ideology today?

>>3382311
This is bullshit. Marx was a pacifist.

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>>3382402
>marx
>pacifist
You're thinking of pussy liberals. Someday your kind will learn that commies and liberals are natural enemies.

>>3382329
Once again, the Bolsheviks don't represent communism any more than the Nazis represent socialism or the government of Zimbabwe represents constitutional democracy.

>>3382460
Except Bolshevik-kind of people are the most susceptible to act radically and have an actual effect on the real world outside of pure theory and intellectual circles
There's no point in elaborating an ideology without anyone to enforce it, and enforcers are the ones who have the real power
The day the enforcers think something should be done differently, who will stand up and tell them otherwise in the high circles of university babbies?
Those who do will end up like the mensheviks, the others will opportunistically side with them and the doctrine will change

It doesn't look good on paper. It relies heavily on confirmation bias to pin problems on capitalism and totally ignores corruption within the institutions it expects to carry out its plans. Attacking capitalism provides an excuse to confiscate property whether it was obtained through immoral business practices or not.

While Stalin was not a "true communist", communism and leftism in general is very useful for tyrants like him, corrupt politicians, warlords and "revolutionaries".

>>3382518
>All revolutions are doomed because all revolutionaries are retarded
You're not wrong, I'm just not sure why you're pretending this doesn't apply to capitalist democracies.

>>3382167
So is a fucking lathe, that doesn't make it any less of a means of production.

>>3382162
It's not a shocker to me, it's a shocker to the useful idiots standing around confused when the communist mob comes and kicks grandma out of her house.

THEY LITERALLY TOLD YOU THIS WOULD HAPPEN BUT YOU WERE TOO STUPID TO REALIZE THAT PORKY ISN'T JUST SOME RICH ASSHOLE HE'S EVERYONE THAT ISN'T A HOBO LIVING UNDER A BRIDGE (aka. the communist vanguard)

>>3380178
that argument simply doesnt work

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>>3382401
State capitalism :^)

>>3382167
If you use you car like a taxi, you turn it in a mean of production.

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>>3382401
capitalism works to a degree in the real world

communism only works in the magical realm of gnomes and elves where all you have to do is be a nice person then you can snap your fingers and solve every problem instantly

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>>3382401
Oh here we go

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>>3382389
Except if porky pays a shit salary (like they do) to the third world workers, then they won't be able to afford their products.

Do you know how long those guys in the picture had to save up to be able to afford that?

>this thread
>again
Go away

>>3382661
Inflation sure is great.

>>3382389
Also I might add, 'communist' workers might just be workers demanding better pay, safer working conditions, vacations, et cetera. Porky just decides he wants more profit or does not want to give into the demands of the native workers (like they already do) and decides that it's cheaper to produce using third world labor.

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>>3382661
seems like world poverty rates been falling a lot slower since the soviet union fell, eh?

>>3382700
>Do you know how long those guys in the picture had to save up to be able to afford that?
Who cares?
Under Communism they wouldn't be able to buy it all.

>>3382731
>muh vacation
Get back to work slacker.

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>>3382401

>>3382756
Not an argument. I might add, that the iPhone is a piece of shit planned obsolescence, overpriced, and in reality it is just a status symbol. Because profit comes before producing a truly good product.

>>3382760
Not an argument.

>>3379045
Libraries are the best example of modern-day communistic ideology in practice.

>>3382779
I don't need valid arguments when I'm shitposting against someone promoting a failed ideology that's claimed millions of lives.

>>3380309
50 people is one extended family

>>3382782
>Libraries are the best example of modern-day workers seizing the means of production
Flush yourself you fucking pleb.

>>3382800
So much for constructive conversation, huh?

>>3382721
wtf??
Did you even read the paper? It is in 1987 US dollars.
http://www.nber.org/papers/w15433.pdf

>>3382732
Ukraine is a special case, lots of extraneous factors.

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>>3379063
>Someone has to lead

>>3382782
That is not communism, it is just an overlap with bread and circuses.

>>3382819
The only constructive exchange possible when dealing with Communists is an ideally but sadly far from always one way, exchange of bullets.

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>>3382792
I haven't promoted anything, simply pointed out where you're wrong.

And it could be said that capitalism has killed as many, if not more. Japanese imperialism, US imperialism and aggression, British, French, Spanish and all other forms of European imperialism, South African apartheid, Tsarist Russia, Spanish Civil War, massacre of the Paris commune, famine by kulaks, both world wars, the holocaust, the great depression...

These are all individual events and there are many more, to that you could the fact that the system rejects the value of human life in favour of profit. Money over people. This causes hunger, thirst, illness, violence, et cetera.

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>>3382837
Doesn't matter if you get millions more votes than the power hungry thug if they control the "people's" army.

>>3382850
>I haven't promoted anything
Are Communists utterly incapable of doing anything other than speaking lies?

>>3381733
>the objects I was given currency to help build with tools that didn't belong to me in a factory that didn't belong to me are all mine kill the fucking pigs class war now

>>3382850
Capitalism is not about rejecting human life, it is just a negotiating tool, like a lathe. Sometimes people get whirled by lathes and torn apart in the process, however the idea of the lathe is not to blame.

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>>3381291
>There are a number of highly prosperous states where socialist parties have been in control for most of post-war history.
Thats not true anon.
Lingdren felled the local part in the 1970s, because they started being a bunch of retards.
Norway of high on oil fumes, and AP never showed any willingness to actually improve the nation anyhow.
I haven't read up on where Finland or Denmark split on their social core position, but they are still highly fractured in terms of elections and party politics.
The only one that isn't fucked in like Cuba, which is poor for a lot of external reasons, and will degrade as Castros influence vanes slowly.

Simply put: A union of Union Members basically managed to turn into a form of nobility post WW2, which has resulted in some horrid stagnation for the various Workers parties.
Said Stagnation, along with Soviet Unions collapse, meant that nobody is working towards ceasing the means of production, to work towards Socialism.

>>3382250
Macron is what happens when Workers Movements are organized enough, to allow a broad spectrum chimpout, so to exist, all Political Parties in France that wants Votes, need to do something to still please the workers movements, even if its small and symbolic while they try to dismantle them over the idea of a 20-50 year period.

>>3382880
I'm just RPing, you could say.

>>3382895
>Sometimes people get whirled by lathes and torn apart in the process, however the idea of the lathe is not to blame.
This could also be applied to communism.

>>3382837
>Coops are socialists

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>>3382850
This