What historical group resembles Rohan the most?

>>3356074
Anglo-Saxons.

weren't they supposed to be winged hussars just like minas tirith was supposed to be vienna?

>>3356074
Polish army ca. 1939.

>>3356080
Maybe, but Anglo-Saxons didn't have very good cavalry. Perhaps the Frankish tribes

They are specifically based on Anglo-Saxons and their language is basically identicle to Old English. Though the point about cavalry is true Tolkein had stated they were based on he Anglo-Saxons

>>3356105
You mean Polish army ca. 1683?
The battle of Pelennor Fields was based on the siege of Vienna.

DEAAAD

sarmatian cataphracs

>>3356105
>>3356213
Both works given that the Polish army in 1939 was as technologically advanced as the one from 1683

>>3356074
Probably Hungary/Polish/Franco

>>3356252
>le ebin memes

>>3356074
Rohan = Poles
Gondor = Austria
Mordor = Turks
Dwarves = Orthodox
Moria = Constantinople
Sauron = Lucifer
Saruman = Luther
Uruk-Hai = Protestants
Oathbreakers = Serbs
Elves = Saints
Hobbits = Catholic peasants
Gandalf = Pope
The Ring = Death

They were basically a mix of Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, and the Winged Hussars.

>>3356252
So Germans in 1939 (yes, 1939) were only slightly more advanced than that?

>>3356104
LOTR is not allegorical in anyway. The cultures of Middle Earth were inspired by various real world counterparts but there are no direct parallels to historical events, there was never intended to be. Straight from Tolkien's pen.

>>3356252
>Germany lost ~1000 armoured vehicles destroyed or disabled to that
How fucking embarrassing

>>3356280
Yep
After all, the only things Germans had Poles didnt are tanks, aircrafts and trucks

>>3356274
You forgot Tom Bombadil = God.

>>3356274
source = my ass

>>3356110
That's the point. This ones do because that's what they lacked irl. It's kind of a power fantasy.

>>3356074
There are plenty, they were basically Anglo Saxon in a horse, so People like the Lombards or the Alani would do. Sarmatians if you want to go more ancient.

>>3356293
Both sides had the same kind of technology. The difference was in numbers, generation of planes and I don't think Polish army had (many) heavy tanks if any but in 1939 both used for example cavalry in exactly the same way. And then the Soviets came and of course they weren't really better.

>>3356074
I think it was Tolkien's fantasy of Anglo-Saxons with cavalry. Since the Normans had much superior cavalry to the Anglo-Saxons, perhaps the Norman conquest could've been prevented if they had good cavalry.

>>3356337
>The difference was in numbers, generation of planes and I don't think Polish army had (many) heavy tanks if any
Most importantly Germany had good inter-service communications that allowed them to get CAS where it was needed

>>3356252
nice meme, my guy, please keep it up! :^)

File: rome1.png (2MB, 2094x1166px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2094x1166px

Poland hate thread?
Poland hate thread

Finnish was used as base for Tolkien's Elvish because he knew about the hyper war. Pre-autism ray Finns were perfect in all senses.

>>3356367
>>3356202
>>3356080
The correct answers. The "Polish Hussars" is a red herring given legitimacy from /pol/ fan fiction.

Their language and names are heavily based on old english. Specifically Anglo-Saxon. Place-names are Norse and Anglo-Saxon. Names for people from Rohan are usually literally just words from old english.

>Eorl (first King of Rohan)
An Anglo-Saxon title of nobility.
>Theoden
Old english is Peoden. It means lord/prince/chief
>Eomer
Anglo-Saxon words "eoh" ("war-horse"), and possibly "mere", ("grand, excellent, famous").
>Eowyn
It means "horse lover" in Anglo-Saxon (L-Lewd) or "horse-friend" (less lewd).
>Grima
Means mask in Anglo-Saxon and old Norse languages.


You'll notice that their names are also their characters. Theoden was the King, Eomer was a skilled war leader on horseback, Eowyn is a girl and girls like horses :^) and Grima is a deceptive liar that hides behind a mask.

Tbh this is similar to how lots of names worked in Anglo-Saxon England. Kings would have fancy names meaning stuff like "wise" or "noble" an example would be Aethelwulf which means Noble Wolf.

>>3356110
he gave anglo-saxon cavalry because some people think they'd have been able to repel norman if they had good cavalry yes tolkien was a larper

>>3356274
tolkien hated allegoria so no

>>3356074
They're Mercians with a horse-riding culture added in, but deliberately imperfectly; despite the fact that they supposedly ride horses, every time the narrative focuses on their tactics and organization, it seems to be based around heavy infantry and shield walls, wheras the cavalry actions are described in far less detail.

>>3356080
>>3358403
Tolkien fucking loved Anglo-Saxons
He was one of those LARPing nerds the "my ancestor!" meme pic refers to

This made him hate the 1066 Norman invasion to the point of trying to avoid French words in his books
Needless to say he failed hard because it's impossible to speak English without them (it's possible to use as few as possible of them though, but it looks retarded so he didnt do that either and eventually limited his Anglo-Saxon loving autism to proper names only)

>>3356074
Anglo-Saxons on horses. They exist because Tolkien felt the Anglo-Saxons would have won Hastings if they had a cavalry contingent, thus sparing Anglo culture and language from being NORMANED

>Ctrl+F
>scythians
Shame

>>3358954
My favorite pokemon
His red evo is ugly tho

>>3358403
It's not /pol/ fanfiction for the hussars. The Battle of Pelennor Fields is inspired by the siege of Vienna where the Polish had the largest cavalry charge in history to break the siege. /pol/ tries to use that to make lotr memes about muslims being orcs despite Tolkein hating allegory.

>>3358811
Retard. They were anglo-saxons, not Mercians.

>>3358850

the "Tolkien hated Normans" meme is so bizarre. Even dumber than the "Tolkien hated Latin/Greek" meme. LOTR is chock fucking full of Romance roots. Also the Rohirrim aren't Anglo-Saxons, as Tolkien himself writes in the appendices:

>This linguistic procedure [of representing the relationship of the Rohirric language to the Common Speech by representing it as Old English] does not imply that the Rohirrim closely resembled the ancient English otherwise, in culture or art, in weapons or modes of warfare, except in a general way due to their circumstances: a simpler and more primitive people living in contact with a higher and more venerable culture, and occupying lands that had once been part of its domain.

>>3356074
Japanese samurais

>>3360893
uhh

File: Germanic Warrior 236-568 AD-43.jpg (408KB, 1200x1586px) Image search: [Google]

408KB, 1200x1586px

>>3356074
Tolkien had them speaking Anglo-Saxon poems and having Anglo-Saxon names.

Beyond that nothing really. An entirely all close combat cavalry force seems to have never existed in history.

The Goths are the closest, but that's only because horses were used as battle taxis and the infantry dismounted for a fight.

>>3356074

All connections between existing peoples and peoples in the Lord of the Rings are PURELY linguistic. Not a single battle or people is allegorical in any way, as confirmed by Tolkien himself.

>>3360966
>An entirely all close combat cavalry force seems to have never existed in history.

It doesn't exist in LOTR either, the ride of the Rohirrim from Dunharrow to Mundburg isn't like a normal standing army thing, it's Theoden summoning everyone in the kingdom who has a warhorse to get their butts down to Gondor NOW because it's about to be besieged. Rohan's armies are mostly foot most of the time (Erkenbrand at Helm's Deep, Eomer at the Morannon). The Rohirrim aren't heavy cavalry (contrast them with the swan-knights of Dol Amroth) and are clearly based on Tolkien's then-current conceptions of Migration Period warfare with Gothic/Hunnic/whatever barbarian riders lightly armored with spear and bow, with the high nobility bearing swords, and horses mostly used to maneuver and raid before shield wall tactics. I'm not gonna say his understanding was historically accurate but even within the story the riding of Theoden at the Pelennor is portrayed as an exceptional, desperate, and very bloody undertaking (going by the estimates of Eomer and Elfhelm's forces after the Battle of the Pelennor in "The Last Debate", they lost 2000 men and 2500 horses out of 6000, in a battle that they won!!).

>>3360973
And what was supposed Tolkien to say?
Similar to Sapkowski, when asked if Witcher games made books more popular. Butthurt Sapkowski said, that Witcher games are shit, and there were only successful thanks to his books.
>>3360966
I like how you specified "close combat", so you can disregard every such army
>Yeah, it was full cavalry army, but one guy had crossbow so it doesn't count

>>3356104

Not culturally. He just bit the entire plot of the battle of the Siege of Vienna.

>>3356213
>The battle of Pelennor Fields was based on the siege of Vienna.

[citation needed]

And no not just "lol they're similar", Tolkien had to constantly shove down people's throats that it was just fantasy. Did he allude to this Vienna shit anywhere?

>>3356286
This.

>>3361210
I'd like to add that their similarities are limited to "relief forces is cavalry". That's somewhat simplistic and a lot of people could think of it.

>>3361274
>>3361210
And I would like to add in to both of you that

A) Tolkien deliberately works through a series of unreliable narrators
B) Even the "cavalry" that the Rohirrim describe pay more attention to how they fight on foot than how they fight on horseback.

It is entirely possible to interpret the Rohirrim as a bunch of later writers We Wuzzing without much of a grasp as to how cavalry tactics work.

>>3361355

What?

>>3361210
>And no not just "lol they're similar", Tolkien had to constantly shove down people's throats that it was just fantasy. Did he allude to this Vienna shit anywhere?
>It was just fantasy
Yet other anons before already talked about, how rohhirims are similar to anglo-saxons, especially with equipment and names. Or was is this just a coincidence?
>>3361274
>similarities are limited to "relief forces is cavalry"
Let's see.
>Relief forse is cavalry
It was a big fucking charge, in both cases greatest in each world.
As for more similarities, thanks to which pelennor fields is compared to Vienna, not for example Helm's deep, where there was also "cavalry relief force"

>Main road is blocked by Angmar forces, so Rohhirims are guided by Drúadan Forest by some local creatures
>Ottomans blocked main road, and Poles were guided through Vienna woods by Hungarians

>White city of Minas Tirith
>White city of Vienna

After both battles allies forces go on offensive
In both battles "the main guy" doesn't lead the army, but the second most important guy. Witch king/grand vezier.

You can find many little similarities, and if you are die hard, you can count something like Osgiliath=Constantinopole.
Also, Tolkien himself admit, that he based few things on real life geography. Of course I am not saying, that both battles are calk copy of each other, but disregarding similarities, because Tolkien never openly said so, is retarded.

>>3358850
>impossible to speak english without them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIo-17SIkws

>>3361400
Go re-read the introduction to the Fellowship of the Ring. Tolkien uses the found manuscript conceit; he didn't "really" write the tale. He translated and edited an older work, which purportedly draws all the way from the Red Book of Westmarch written by Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam, and then edited by others; in fact, it's not clear how many others, before it gets to him.

You can see this preoccupation with how the information develops into the tale in some of his other works, most especially in the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, in Unfinished tales.

You are not reading a fictional story as to "What happened in the year 3019 of the third age". You are reading a fictional story as to what a bunch of fictional characters wrote about the year 3019 in the third age, and then more fictional characters came and scribbled over. It is probably not accurate. In fact, you can already see the beginning of errors creeping into the tale, with how Ioreth talks to her unnamed kinswoman about what Frodo did in Mordor.

>>3361478
Not the guy you're responding to but:
>It was a big fucking charge, in both cases greatest in each world.
6,000 horsemen is not the biggest cavalry charge in the fictional history of Tolkien's world. Nirneath Arnoediad and the field of Celebrant both feature larger ones, and given the sizes of some of the armies being thrown around in the second age, it's probable that battles in the War of the Last Alliance have bigger ones too.

I would also point out that the bigger relief force by far is the one Aragorn leads, which is also on foot.

>thanks to which pelennor fields is compared to Vienna, not for example Helm's deep, where there was also "cavalry relief force"
Please read the books. http://old.ahmadtea.ua/userfiles/files/Tolkien/Lord%20Of%20The%20Rings%20-%20Part%202%20-%20The%20Two%20Towers%20By%20J%20R%20R%20Tolkien.pdf Page 94.

>There suddenly upon a ridge appeared a rider, clad in white, shining in the rising sun. Over the low hills the horns were sounding. Behind him, hastening down the long slopes, were a thousand men on foot.

Angmar is thousands of miles and thousands of years away from Minas Tirith; their forces are not blocking the road, it's other troops from Minas Morgul. There are also plenty of other historical cities with white walls, as are ones where "the good guys" go on the offensive.

>>3356286
This, but, it kinda is allegorical. Just that, as you say, it's not that direct. The ring is not nuclear power, but just power in general.
He wanted to keep is allegories more open, he disliked when they were forced upon the reader.

>>3361524
>There are also plenty of other historical cities with white walls
It's not about white walls, Vienna just means "whity city/settlement/whatever"

>as are ones where "the good guys" go on the offensive.
Yes, but that's how similarities work, you need a bunch of them at the same time. Just because Vienna isn't only case of changing from defensive to offensive, it doesn't discard whole argument. That's like saying,
>Tolkien was lying, when he said his book is pure fiction without any analogies. Look, this guy has description of wearing armours, and armours exist historically.

>>3361562
There's a difference between

>I can point to some similarities

And a claim that a fictional event is based on a real one.

>It's not about white walls, Vienna just means "whity city/settlement/whatever"
And Minas Tirith means "tower of the guard". The color of its walls is incidental.

>Yes, but that's how similarities work, you need a bunch of them at the same time. Just because Vienna isn't only case of changing from defensive to offensive, it doesn't discard whole argument. That's like saying,

And again, you need more than just similarities to claim that it was based on something. You could just as easily claim that Pelennor Fields is *really* based on the battle/siege of Guan Du as it is Vienna, and you have a lot of the same elements; a belagured, trapped force in a fort, flanking attacks, a sortie from the city turning against a weakness and into an unexpected victory.

Tolkien said there were no ALLEGORIES in his books. Or, in the words of the author himself

> I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.

>>3356104
And Minas Morgul was Constantinople, the corrupted city

>>3359005
Except it is fanfiction. Tolkien is literally quoted as saying he based the battle on the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains. A battle between a coalition of Western Romans (Men of the West) and their germanic ally fedorati (Led by King Theoderic, who dies in the battle) and Attila the Hun and his coalition of allied Germanics. Attila was besieging a city in Gaul and ended up caught by the coalition forces and defeated. Something peolle didn't think was possible.

Tolkien liked late antiquity and the early dark ages, he based his entire setting on the perod. Gondor being great builders with stone is a nod towards the stone walls the Romans built all over Europe.

File: Ostrogoths.jpg (223KB, 900x613px) Image search: [Google]

223KB, 900x613px

Definitely not perfect but
>Spanghelm and Vendel helmets with nice plumes
>scale-armor and chain-mail
>largely unarmored horses
>"Horse-rider" people who live in permanent settlements
>fight with one-handed lances and cavalry swords
>nice, flowing long hair
sounds like the Greuthungi (Steppe-goths) or possibly the later Ostrogoths

>>3356074

The Goths, who ruled a vast empire in Poland / the Ukraine before the coming of the Huns.

>>3363834

This is explicitly the basis, Rohan is the Goths with an Anglo-Saxon language.

Culturally it's a patchwork, probably indeed based on Saxon and Goth. Military it's light cavalry. Like e.g. late Roman auxiliaries.

>No one has any idea what it is
>Someone mentions Goths
>Four posts in a row now just says "yeah dude theyre goths for sure"

Really makes you cogitate

Obviously Anglo-Saxon.

Their language is basically Old English.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkjeoINcK_w

>>3356274
>Moria = Constantinople
Minas Morgul is Constantinople, the corrupted city

File: 1424464418334.jpg (14KB, 200x226px) Image search: [Google]

14KB, 200x226px

>this whole thread
I'm genuinely happy to see there are people who are as into Tolkien and history as I am

poles

>>3365161
Can't speak for anyone else but I had the whole "Rohan must be Ostrogoths" thing going as soon as I watched the film again.

>>3356274
Dwarves are meant to be Jews.

>>3356074
They were meant to be Anglo-Saxons with horses

Coincidentally they resemble Goths the most

>>3361526

> The ring is not nuclear power, but just power in general.

No its not. The Ring is the Ring. Its exactly what it is as described in Tolkien's books, and nothing else. It is not allegorical.


>>3361478

You could find similarities like that with thousands of battles that happened in history. That is because there are obviously going to be recurring themes in warfare. Lord of the Rings is NOT allegorical.

>>3356110
They are obviously Anglo-Saxon. Having cavalry is just a superficial quality when you consider the language and culture of Rohan is obviously based off of Anglo-Saxon England. It's like saying the Shire isn't based off of the English countryside because Hobbits are too short.

File: 13093524.jpg (33KB, 278x400px) Image search: [Google]

33KB, 278x400px

>>3356274


Dwarves = Romans and Greeks
Elves = Celts (Language is very similar to Welsh)
Men = Anglo Saxons
Hobbits = Brits

It merges the modern and ancient:

Gandaulf and Saruman are the same character. Gandaulf represents Petain at Verdun, Petain was a hero and regarded as the greatest defensive tactian of the war, Petain was associated with pic related.

Saruman represented Petain in WWII, where he joined the Nazis and led the Vichy government which fought with the Germans.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_P%C3%A9tain
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France


The Dunedain is based upon Byzantine aristocracy, yet Rohan also represents the Siege of Vienna. Truly amazing how so much of history can be represented in one story.

>>3367087

All of this is bullshit

File: the-dead-marshes.jpg (31KB, 600x300px) Image search: [Google]

31KB, 600x300px

>>3367115

Tolkien's work is based upon WWI and WWII. See pic related

>>3367129

From the mouth of Gimli himself
> www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zgr9kqt

>>3356074
Hungary. The word Rohan means "rush" or "run" in Hungarian and they're famous for being horse riding people living on the plains.

>>3367129
it's based upon world wars in the same way everything you write is based upon facebook and mtv

>>3367087
In the movies Saruman is kind of Sauron's lackey but in the books he's more like an independent warlord doing his own stuff and not even liking Sauron.

Why do people always bring this stupid ebin
muh siege of vienna orcs = turks allegorical shit to LOTR? Can't you people fuckin read or something

File: jn_2.jpg (242KB, 1012x684px) Image search: [Google]

242KB, 1012x684px

>>3367142
>way everything you write is based upon facebook and mtv
I come from an alternate reality to you, those things play little, to nothing in my writings/thoughts

>>3367151
>Tolkien said it's not an allegory, so it cannot be!
I hate this argument so much and it's always the go-to argument of a brainlet who wants to appear smart.

>>3367129

No it is not. WW1 influenced Tolkien because he was a human being alive during those times (and present there), and as such has influenced his writing. This does NOT mean that his works are in any way BASED ON those events.

>>3367178

>I know better than the author

Maybe you should become an English teacher

>>3367204
He said they were. In response to question about Hitler being Sauron, he said LotRs is more influenced by WWI.

>>3367206
He's kinda right, even if Tolkien didn't directly use analogies, he couldn't help it but be influenced by historical events.

>>3367220
>>3367220

You should learn the difference between influence and allegory.

File: romai.jpg (29KB, 500x267px) Image search: [Google]

29KB, 500x267px

>>3367226
phallacious piece of shit

> 2017 and trying to save face by being a retard spouting fallacies

You're on an anonymous image board, who gives a shit if you're wrong.

>>3367206
>the author cannot lie

>>3367245

What in God's name are you talking about?

fucking mongoloid

Better question is why do /pol/tards and similar types love Tolkien so much?

>>3367206
That's assuming that Tolkien was being honest. Fantasy genre as a whole is 90% just renamed historical peoples, events and locations.

>>3367249
>>3367257

>Tolkien was a liar

If you want to believe that, I can not argue against it.

> Fantasy genre as a whole is 90% just renamed peoples, events and locations that Tolkien made up

fyp

File: Memoir.jpg (179KB, 710x644px) Image search: [Google]

179KB, 710x644px

>>3367250

I am a fish, but there is better bait to be bitten.

>>3367266
Robert E. Howard wrote fantasy literature that was independent of Tolkien and he did so because he originally wanted to write historical fiction, but he lacked education and literature about it so he just made up his own shit VERY loosely based on real things.
Tolkien obviously didn't lack this education, he was very knowledgeable about history and utilized this knowledge to the fullest extent. To think LOTR isn't based on real history is retarded if you actually know history.

>>3367284

Tolkien was a linguist, and used this to create languages for his fantasy world. Your claim that the Lord of the Rings is based on real history is completely unfounded and backed only by insults and false appeals to unestablished authority.

>>3367301
>completely unfounded
It's been elaborated on in this very thread, there's a pretty solid foundation.

>>3367317

Except it has not. Just a bunch of random people claiming random things: "Rohan is x, minas tirith is y".
Meanwhile the author of the books ardently rejected any assumption of allegory in the books.

>>3367326
Read the entire thread again.

>>3367330

King Theoden is blond and the leader of a nation. He is an old man. He had servant who many despise but had a big influence on him, but then the servant was sent away. Theoden lives in a golden hall.

Donald Trump is blond and a leader of a nation. He is very old. He had a servant, Steve Bannon, who was much despised but now the servant is dismissed. Trump lives in a house covered in gold.

THEODEN IS TRUMP EVERYONE OBVIOUSLY YOU DONT KNOW HISTORY IF YOU DENY THIS

>>3367145
>lackey
The books don't quite get explicit about this, but Gandalf seems pretty sure that Sauron has some sort of hold on Saruman. Remember, he's in a positioon to demand Saruman yield up hobbit prisoners to him, and Gandalf seems to think that Saruman is under some kind of compulsion to return to the Palantir for inspection and instruction. Furthermore, Saruman's plan against Rohan is really kind of dumb, given that how after a couple of days mustering, Theoden can pull together an army as big as his after suffering all the losses he took at Helms Deep and the Fords of Isen. And of course the Rohirrim are quite a bit tougher than his hillmen and uruk-hai individually. He doesn't really seem to have a chance, and a war for him can't seem to turn out well. But even losing, he's a good distraction for Rohan while Sauron smashes Gondor.

File: Huns450.png (185KB, 719x697px) Image search: [Google]

185KB, 719x697px

>>3363010
This is the correct answer.
>Minas Tirith was nicknamed "The white city"
>Attilas forced besieged Aurelianum which means "City of Aurelian" the Emperor who built it. Aurelian means gold or golden.
>Attilas forced besieged "The Golden city"
>Attila amassed an army of Huns and Germanic tribes
>Sauron did the same with men from the south and east
>Attila and Saurons Empires were surrounded by mountains (pic related)
>Flavius Aetius was the Roman commander and has been nicknamed the "Last of the Romans"
>Aragon was often said to be "Last of the Numenoreans"
>Numenoreans came to middle earth because their home was destroyed similar to Roman myths about being survivors of Troy
>They built two great Kingdoms in the north and south (Eastern and Western Roman Empires)
>Theoderic (Theoden) was a Visigothic commander and fedorati for the Romans who fought in the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains and died there

Watching the movies can throw this all off because they depict Gondor as wearing plate armour, something Tolkien never said anyone wore. In his work armoured troops wear mail across all factions. This is where people confuse it all with the Battle of Vienna because plate armour is much later 15th century equipment. This isn't to say that Tolkien thought Huns = orcs. It was just one of the last great battles the Romans in the West ever managed to win and it was an impressive alliance Aetius managed to forge in such a short time, all the combatants on the Roman side weren't exactly fond of each other but they hated Attila even more.

>>3368156

Dwarves are the Romans and Greeks, if you understand character extensions................. Petain is Gandaulf. History repeating itself.

>>3368186
But Tolkiens dwarf language is based on realities Semetic languages. That, the "lost home land" story and their famed abilities as craftsmen plus the fact that Tolkien himself has said it is all evidence that his dwarves are based on Jews.

>>3356074
Kingdom of Mercia, but the event at that battle is based off the winged hussars at Vienna

>>3356074
French

>>3356402
I can't wait for the next partition.

>>3368156

>cities have a color in their name (such a novelty)
>army drew troops from many places (never happened anywhere else)
>there are mountains (wow so crazy so unique)
>remotely similar nicknames
>biblical tale about the sinking of their ancients lands is so very similar to dude escapes Troy and has a bunch of homeric escapades
>omg there was 2 things never before were there 2 things
>King died in battle just like in LOTR (never happened anywhere else ever)

OMG SO VERY SIMILAR IT MUST BE THE SAME THING!! ALLEGORY SO OBVIOUS

>>3368186

Ah yes the famed Roman and Greek tendency to delve deep into mountains and live underground, coupled with the fact that they were tiny bearded men, OBVIOUSLY inspired Tolkien when he created the dwarves.

and ofcourse Petain is a half-god sent by the Gods to defeat the evil apprentice of an evil God, so he makes the obvious inspiration for Gandalf.

>>3370166

The Gothic History of Jordanes covers the battle, its free online, if you gave it a read, Tolkien was inspired by it for the Battle of the Pelennor Fields in The Return of the King. Both Theoden and Theoderic die by being crushed by a horse after attempting to rally their men, both are carried away dead from the fighting mid-battle.

>Battle of the Pelennor Fields
>'To me! To me!' cried Theoden
>But Shadowmane (his horse) wild with terror stood up on high, fighting with the air, and then with a great screm he crashed side: a black dart had pierced him. The king fell beneath him.
>Nazgul etc Eowyn etc
>And those who stood by wept, crying: 'Theoden King! Theoden King!'
>'bear his body from the field, lest the battle ride over it!'
>Men now raised the king, and laying cloaks upon spear-truncheons they made a shift to bear him away towards the city
>Long Tolkien song

>The Gothic History of Jordanes
>King Theoderic while riding his horse by to encourage his army, was thrown from his horse and trampled under foot
>When after a long search, they found him where the dead lay thickest, as happens with brave men
>They honoured him with songs and bore him away in the sight on the enemy
>Tears were shed, but such as they were accustomed to devote to brave men

The battle also has a prophecy of its own that claimed a commander would die, at Catalaunian this was Theoderic, in RotK it was the Witch-King. People fail to realise just how much of a 400-1066-boo Tolkien was, if he was alive today he would be one on those Anglo-Saxon posters claiming William was Hitler or that the Western Roman Empire was better than the Eastern one. Even if this battle wasn't something Tolkien was aware of at all it is still closer than "Muh epic Polish Hussars!"

File: BIATEC.jpg (54KB, 700x366px) Image search: [Google]

54KB, 700x366px

>>3370181

Romans were little men that lived in the most fabulous cities, you could get to them by "traveling through the mountains".

When the Celts (Elves) sacked Rome, the Celtic peoples who didn't wear beards (See pic related), were amazed by the funny Romans with huge beards, one of the Celts started tugging at the beard of one of the Romans, and in response the Roman hit out at the Celt, thus started a sack of Rome.

> Petain
Yes, Petain famously stated that he was waiting for the Americans. Where do the Americans live? Where do the gods live? Where are all the Elves leaving for? What are the emigrations to America? What is Liberté, égalité, fraternité? What is the French Revolution?

File: 103765027.jpg (48KB, 422x612px) Image search: [Google]

48KB, 422x612px

>>3371004

cont-

What set Athens apart and was the pivotal factor in defeating the Persians? SILVER MINES

File: athens3.jpg (59KB, 500x716px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 500x716px

>>3371019
cont -

> After the battle of Marathon, Themistocles persuaded the Athenians to devote the anticipated revenue derived from a major silver vein strike in the mines of Laurion circa 483 BC to expanding the Athenian fleet to 200 triremes, and thus laid the foundation of the Athenian naval power.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurium

File: -Socrates-.jpg (194KB, 852x1300px) Image search: [Google]

194KB, 852x1300px

>>3371034

THE MINES OF LAURION
> THE MINES OF MORIA


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mines_of_Laurion
> This discovery meant that at the beginning of the second Persian invasion of Greece, the Athenian state had at its disposal 100 talents. Rather than distribute this wealth amongst the citizens of Athens, Themistocles proposed that this money should be used to construct 200 triremes, which were used to conduct the naval campaign against Persia which culminated in victory at the Battle of Salamis in 480 BC.

>>3370540

>Commander rallying his troops is somehow a unique feature and not something that happens in literally every battle ever fought in the history of all mankind
>Trampled under foot is now the same thing as having your horse fall on you
>A king is carried from the battlefield and not left there, this is totally unique and not a normal thing to do with a king
>Prophecy that a commander would die is somehow remotely comparable to a prophecy that a magical wizard can be slain by no man

But most of all these are all fundamentally flawed arguments
>omg there are similarities between these two events therefor one inspired the other

>>3371004
>Romans were little men that lived in the most fabulous cities, you could get to them by "traveling through the mountains".

Dwarves live INSIDE mountains and you do not have to travel through mountains to get there.
Never in the history of Middle-Earth was a dwarven city sacked by elves, so thanks for showing how retarded your analogy is.

File: kangz.gif (999KB, 500x175px) Image search: [Google]

999KB, 500x175px

>>3371048
cont-

THE DUNEDAIN ARE BASED UPON BYZANTINE MILITARY ELITE. ARAGON IS THE LAST OF THE DUNEDAIN.

File: zenophon.jpg (35KB, 400x394px) Image search: [Google]

35KB, 400x394px

>>3371077
It's a play on words you stupid moron. Celts and Romans were enemies, the Romans won as did the Dwarves in their battles.

>>3371048
>>3371034


You mean these Greeks invested money in building seafaring ships? Something the Dwarves never once did, because they have NO RELATIONSHIP TO THE SEA WHATSOEVER?

>>3371083

Its not a play on words, its you attempting to make your ill-fitting analogy more apt by bending the meaning of the words.

You just said the Celts sacked Rome, but now Rome wins?

>>3356402
literally replace nazis with ocupation zones and Poland with PLC at its height

except PLC actually lasted longer than 6 years

>>3356074
winged hussars

>>3371099
>it's another episode of Poles claiming credit for Lithuanian achievements

>>3358403
>Horse lover
What is Phillip

>>3367087
Elven aesthetics are definitely Arab. Their architecture, writing and weapons bare a significant resemblance

File: lion.jpg (890KB, 1320x1122px) Image search: [Google]

890KB, 1320x1122px

>>3371086
Tolkien was showing how history repeats itself, the stories portray defensive events.

> Persians invading Greece
> Huns invading Rome
> Turks invading Byzantium and Balkans
> Germans invading France and Britain

It's true that he didn't invoke sea power, but rather concentrated on land warfare, as this was his primary experience in WWI and WWII. LotR invokes continuity of history repeating itself.


> Alexander and Sobieski = pic related

The overarching theme of Tolkien's stories is THE REDEEMER.

File: theoden.jpg (49KB, 625x338px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 625x338px

>>3372343


whoops, wrong image, even though Alexander was know as the Lion.

>>3371063
They are similar battles. The background is even similar, the Romans saw the Huns as Gondor saw Mordor, a barbarian invasion of their civilization. Aetius was able to rally forces from all over France who all held a grudge against one another under one cause in the same way we see Aragon collecting different groups of men, who held their own grudges to defend Gondor. Both events were miracles only possible thanks to their actions. Both Mordor and the Huns were caught with their pants down mid siege and their armies destroyed but both were still able to easily recover such losses while the defenders could not. People described Aetius and Aragon as the last of their kind, descendants of a once powerful people. That plus the resemblance of Theoden and Theoderics death mid battle the events are very similar.
>lots of kings die in battle
True but few kings have their heir succeed them mid battle and are carried away dead by their men crying, again mid battle. Typically the death of the king in battle means you've lost, most armies rout or have already essentially lost by the point a king is killed. Historically it is a rare instance to have the king die in the field but win the battle.

Tolkien was human, his ideas were based upon things he had read, heard or seen. He was not an alien able to spawn original ideas at whim. In the same way his cultures and people in the universe he created were based on cultures and people in reality so were the events of his books based on reality.

No idea is original. Not even Tolkiens ones.

>>3373049
Not him, and obviously from what I comment. But it's this:
>>3372343

Tolkien is creating all histories in one story.

File: turin_turambar.jpg (256KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

256KB, 1920x1080px

>>3373366


cont-

And after everything that has been said, we must not forget that Tolkien was also influenced by his peers.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Rheingold

>>3372345
I hate how movie Theoden just stands around saying ominous, redundant trash while everyone else is moving the plot forward.
>so it is come...this...
>IS THIS IT? IS THIS ALL SAURON CAN MUSTER?
>how did it come to this...

May as well cut to a cow moo'ing every 20 minutes or so

>>3373421
The image was a pun of sorts for the accompanying text.

>>3372207
In what depiction?

>>3367284
Howard and Tolkien were contemporaries. In fact Howard was dead when the Hobbit was published. Of fucking course he wrote fantasy independently of Tolkien.

>>3373431
I understood, but as a sidebar I wanted to include that greentext.

File: 1447952688672.png (1MB, 800x1085px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 800x1085px

> Alberich refuses, but Wotan seizes it from his finger and puts it on his own. Alberich is crushed by his loss, and before he leaves he lays a curse on the ring: until it should return to him, whoever does not possess it will desire it, and whoever possesses it will live in anxiety and will eventually be killed and robbed of it by its next owner.

>>3373049
>the Romans saw the Huns as Gondor saw Mordor, a barbarian invasion of their civilization.

WRONG. Gondor saw Mordor as the place where a LITERAL HALF GOD being of pure evil resides in his MAGIC TOWER where he breeds NON HUMAN CREATURES he wants to use CAST THE ENTIRE WORLD INTO DARKNESS.


You are beyond fucking retarded and I hope you get hit by a car and die horribly.

>>3372343

>random historical events bear some small similarities to events in this book

THE AUTHOR SURELY INTENDED TO COMMENT ON THESE HISTORICAL EVENTS

File: jeb.jpg (62KB, 521x520px) Image search: [Google]

62KB, 521x520px

>>3375899

That's all you're getting, hear from me again, and it'll be the last moments of your petty life.

>>3371004
>Where are all the Elves leaving for?
Britain you fucking mong Tolkien explicitly spelled this out.

>>3372173
A Dick.

>>3367245
wat