What went wrong? Why did Operation Typhoon fail?

>>3354862
The so-called Master Race can't handle a little cold.

They thought it would be so easy they would take it before it got cold so they didnt bring any cold weather equipment due to Hitlers orders

>>3354935
Not true. They actually did, Goebbels even made a huge christmas campaign for clothes for soldiers donations. It just all got left in boxes in Warsaw, they didn't deliver it to the front cause of lack of trains, or railways or logistics or just poor organisation.

>divisions at half to one third strength
>only 15% of the motor pool operational
>masses of horses dying
>only 16 of the 31 demanded supply trains arriving each day
>lack of winter clothes at the front

>>3354862
Soviet divisions from the far east arrived. The Wehrmacht had a lack of winter clothing, stretched supply lines, higher equipment and manpower losses than it had ever previously experienced. They were at the end of their operational rope so to speak, and were smashed by the Reds accordingly.

>b-but if they had invaded just 6 weeks earlier or not diverted the panzers to Kiev

When people say this, does it not occur to them that Moscow was a major and well-defended city, that wouldn't fall in a matter of weeks of urban combat. One look at a Stalingrad ought to be enough to dispel the silly notion that the Wehrmacht would have simply walked in if they had an extra few weeks.

>>3354959
they could have still encircled it and besieged it; and cut it off as a major transport hub, like they did with leningrad. That would be enough, they could leave the city to starve during winter and take it after wards.

>>3354978
>divisions at half to one-third strength
>only 15% of the motor pool operational
>masses of horses dying
>only 16 of the 31 demanded supply trains arriving each day
>lack of winter clothes at the front
>Soviet divisions from the Far east arrived
No

>>3354978
Leningrad had a sea to its west, a lake to its east, a Finnish army to its north, and 2 million less inhabitants. Considering the state of Army Group Center at the time it seems very doubtful the largest city in the Soviet Union could be completely encircled.

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>>3354943

Bit late by christmas dumbass, considering there is 6-7 months of winter

>>3354959
>SIberian divisions meme
http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the-siberian-divisions-and-the-battle-for-moscow-in-1941-42/

>>3354978
The problem with these claims is that they presuppose a complete lack of Soviet resistance. At Moscow, unlike Stalingrad, the city had been prepared thoroughly for a defense, hundreds of thousands of the civilian populace had been made to assist in digging defensive works. The forces from the far east have still arrived, they historically occupied staging areas behind Moscow until they counterattacked, they would still be there to interdict an encirclement.

>>3354986
Categorically untrue. The presence of some rather large Soviet armies stopped them and drove them back. You should try thinking, or just reading about Stalingrad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad if you genuinely think Moscow would simply surrendered in a matter of weeks.

>>3355007
Helps my case, it details a bunch of divisions being shipped west. But further helps against the butthurt wehrboos with

>The Soviet land model shows that 182 rifle divisions, 43 militia rifle divisions, eight tank divisions, three mechanised divisions, 62 tank brigades, 50 cavalry divisions, 55 rifle brigades, 21 naval rifle brigades, 11 naval infantry brigades, 41 armies, 11 fronts and a multitude of other units were newly Mobilised and Deployed (MD) in the second half of 1941.

Yeah, those krauts only needed an extra 6 weeks to take Moscow, sure.

>>3355038
Not an argument

>>3354989
Guderian's tank servicability report of August 4th was 50%,which means roughly 476 tanks available.

>>3355057
And his report in 18 November counted 150 tanks, out of a starting force of around 1000.

>>3355076
Not an argument

>>3355057
Because tanks are so useful in urban combat.

>>3355059
>kikepedia

So you're /pol/ and trying to argue based on what Greatest Story Never Told said happened, rather than the details of the situation at the front at the time.

The Soviets had amassed a reserve of 58 divisions and committed about 1.1 million men to their counterattack in December, which was actually a 1:1 parity with the Wehrmacht, the Wehrmacht got fucking smashed. So going into a hypothetical siege of Moscow situation, the Germans lack any significant numerical advantage and still have a whole host of supply/casualty/equipment/weather problems. They could not capture a city the size of Moscow within 6 weeks or even 6 months.

>stalingrad was an entirely different case where the red army had like 1 million troops and the Germans had 1/3 of that number and still put up a heroic fight.

Not the case. The Wehrmacht initially outnumbered the Red Army at Stalingrad. They failed to take the city, and 9 months later they were not substantially outnumbered (it was roughly 1.2:1 in manpower) by the Red Army when the encirclement occurred

> No matter the amount of reinforcements. The only thing that saved them was the weather.

You're evidently a rather butthurt naziboo. /pol/ is always so shit when it comes to legit historical discussion.

>>3355093
epic

>>3355096
> tanks are so useful in urban combat.
The plan was to surround moscow and then send in Schwerer Gustav

>>3354959
>Soviet divisions from the far east arrived.
Lmao people still believe in this dumbfuck myth? So gay.

>>3355139
>i'm not pol i swear

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>>3355156
>when /pol/ runs out of arguments

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>>3355189
>elaborate on why Wehrmacht lost at Moscow
>mindfucked jewish infested natural state

>>3354862
Imagine being outside a crack house. You're a SWAT breaching specialist and you've been told that there are two suspects inside armed with blunt objects. You're pretty confident that you can handle them with your equipment and training. You've been told it's a shoot-to-kill situation, so no backing down from either side.

You kick down the rotting door and there are three guys in the hallway, you shoot two and one runs away. The conditions inside are horrendous and there are holes everywhere. You run after the remaining suspect and kick open another door, this time with four guys shouting and hollering as they charge right back at you and one smashes a bottle against your helmet.

This goes on for a time until: bloodied, panting and with two bullets left. Backup is hours away. You roll open a warehouse door and there are 20 guys lined up in front of yet another door titled 'Moscow'.

>>3354978
>they could leave the city to starve during winter and take it after wards.

Besieging Leningrad was a massive shitshow for the Germans. End result was this whole blockade tied up a massive amount of forces they badly needed elsewhere.

>>3355307
Are you insinuating that Aryan warrior cannot defeat those twenty Sub-humans?

>>3354978
>they could have still encircled it

how to get alesia'd

no they would not have been able to encircle it way too many soviet armies in this area

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>>3354862
Germans had finally run out of steam and were fighting with the last ounce of their strength against 30+ divisions of Siberian troops came into the fray against them.

>>3355214
imagine being this insecure

>>3355156
That rather show the ineptness of OKH planning in believing their own memes about conquering the whole USSR in 2 months
Russia owes alot on it ability to defense itself with its huge landmass,just saying that winter stopped the Wehrmacht dead in its track is silly because there was still the dreadful rasputitsa and im pretty sure you're trying to instill the notion that the Red Army itself is somewhat incapable of providing meaningful resistance to the heer
also on the subject of encircling Moscow,only the Northern pincer was able to get close to Moscow,they never got anyway in the South
the city was defended by a triple ring defense in depth with a further 2 rifle division as a rear echelon guard,kind of what the soviets had at Kursk,the Germans barely breached the 1st at Moscow

>>3355498
also people forget that Russian broke their dams to create floods to prevent Germans from transporting heavy equipment and much needed supply

>>3355513
>Implying that would stop the German Army.
Why are they such fucking idiots

>>3355038
I feel like most people get caught up too much on how we play Stalin up as massively unstable in the opening stages of Barbarossa and the logical conclusion to that is if the Germans were able to enter Moscow it would scare him into fleeing or killing him self and somehow a miracle in the east would happen because everyone knows losing your big commander in the vidya means you lose.

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>>3355529
>Mfw Stalin not Hitler was the rational person.
How did people get it so wrong back then?

>>3355206
You don't even deny you're a shit posting poltard, why should you be treated any other way.

>>3355059
This post is fucking pathetic.
It sounds like it was written by a 13 year old.

Pls KYS, you are not doing your "cause" any favours, Ameri-mongrel edgelord.

>>3355553
They were both megalomaniacs and definitely more than a little unstable, i just remember my high school history course going out of its way to mention how Stalin curled up in a feral position for the first part of Barbarossa and while I can believe he had some episodes I doubt it was anywhere near described.
Cold War at work man.

>>3355606
I'm from /pol/ I never post here you 13 year old shitskin embarrassment

>it's an "Amerimongrels larping as Nazis pretend they know shit about history" episode

>>3355498
>>3355096
Another thing that's extra stupid about beseiging Moscow:

You're doing all of this with your right flank exposed, and you have nearly a million well supplied, well equipped troops free to attack anywhere they want on hundreds of miles.

If the Germans went straight for Moscow, the war would have ended in 1943.

>>3355522
no
its not to stop the german army
its to disrupt supply,destroy villages that the german could use as shelter from the freezing agony and to make it hard for them to transport heavy artillery
america almost encountered this problem during the invasion of iraq but they managed to secure the dam

>>3355618
they've probably wouldve been bogged down in the rasputitsa anyway,which was just as hellish as the winter in terms of mobile warfare
im in the strong camp of invading russia,stopping just short 130 miles off moscow and making a defensive line there,reduce the investment in the siege of leningrad and make a thrust in the crimean peninsula
my rationale is that germany needs the crushing early success of barbarossa in capturing 3 million men,but avoid the 1 million casualty they sustained during typhoon plus all the attrition surrounding that
its well known that the russian at that period sucked at offensive and continued until Stalingrad,just look at Rzhev and Demyansk or further back during WW1 where the imperial army absorbed russian attack and then launched massive counter offensive which eventually put russia out of the war
i can envision Stalin planning a hasty counter offensive during the summer,and then getting his forced fucked by massive encirclements and in cauldrons while the Germans were in a defensive posture during winter. This strategy probably wont lead to victory but will definitely extend the war for much longer

>>3355919
>very exposed southern flanks that is overstretched and thinly defended with atleast 4 soviet fronts or 1.2 million soldiers below it is not a threat

>>3354959
>When people say this, does it not occur to them that Moscow was a major and well-defended city, that wouldn't fall in a matter of weeks of urban combat.
Fucking this.

Moscow was ten times the size of Stalingrad, and Soviets were as much or even more dead set on defending it.
>>3355595
If Stalin was so scared and so unstable, then he wouldn't have refused to leave Moscow...

ITT you can clearly see 2 kinds of posters.

/his/torians - normal, chill discussion on history, they back up their arguments with numerous sources, have some knowledge on the subject they are talking about(at least basic)

and

/pol/tards - coming to /his/ to spread their cancerous agenda no one here cares about, have almost no actual knowledge of history, they just repeat idiotic myths that fit their agenda when confronted with well-documented sources they resort to damage control like >kikepedia

>>3355938
Dude, trying to convince him makes no sense. He comes to this thread with clear agenda in mind. For him, these 1.2 million soldiers are irrelevant, as they are Slav - subhumans, and they would obviously get slaughtered, no matter the numbers and equipment, by based Nazis - of course only if the weather wasn't so unfavourable...

>>3356078
Because winter only affects one side, right? And it's such a rare condition it makes no sense to account for it, right?

>>3356124
>Sources are Jewish

Honestly fuck off, this board ain't for you.

Even in the off chance the Germans could have taken Moscow, they would end up in the same situation as Napoleon found himself. Moscow has been burned and stripped bare of all resources by the retreating Russians, and the winter hammers the remaining Germans. The Russians regroup just beyond Moscow and continue to fight, launching punishing raids throughout winter to soften up the Germans for their spring offensive. Army Group Centre collapses and the German position in Russia becomes untenable.

>>3356136
>so new as to not remembering the days of Ron Paul
Absolutely shred my life into pieces.

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>>3356183
>my feelings are better source than wikipedia

There is literally a dedicated safe space for your kind. Why don't you stay there, if reality triggers you?

>>3356225
>your well known friend is shattered before your eyes
How exactely?

>I'm only imparting the cold truth
Which is?

>>3355632
so could you guys kindly fuck off back to your delusional board? All we want here is a discussion where your race or religion is not a main factor in any kind of topic

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>>3356067
Much, much better source than any of yours. You don't even post any kek.
>>3356078
You are insecure about the fact your "master race" has lost tremendously in a fair fight.
>>3356124
>easily manipulated
You're the one manipulated in a shitty conspiracy theory based on completely false ""infographics"" from /pol/.
>>3356124
>they back up their arguments with numerous sources which is only wikipedia lmao
I can directly link publications if you want.

And stop trying to hide the fact that you won't accept ANY SOURCE at all. This discussion is purely emotional for you. You aren't trying to gain any knowledge, you are trying to spread your cancerous agenda.

>have every piece of knowledge on history
>posting only what the cold hard truth is
The cold hard truth is that you have no basic knowledge on the subject. Otherwise you wouldn't be spamming about winter, as if it was the only factor, but also analyzing general strategic situation, division deployment, etc.

You have literally nothing to say.

>>3356136
>this site was natsoc and always will be you reddit refugee
*pol was always natsoc

>>3355002
Usually I think
'vehicle plus machine guns = fucking awesome'
that bus looks like the dumbest idea ever though

They lost the initiative when the Panzers were diverted south giving the Soviets time to prepare and bring in the Far East units

>>3356240
No. They won't go back, they see this place as a prime target for spreading their beliefs(they won't obviously convince any actual /his/torians, but there are many less informed lurkers).

The only way to get rid of this infestation is to refute everything they have, to meticulously prove them wrong, prove them biased in everything they say. At the end, they don't really have much more to say than >((())).

>>3354978
They couldn't even contain a fucking counterattack with a single front, how would this encirclement work?

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>>3355338
He would if it wasn't fucking -30 C !

>>3354978
Yes because it worked so fucking well in Leningrad hahaha they surely captured it

>>3355002
rude

>>3354862
shit weather, shit logistics and overstreched and exhausted troops plus the soviets had shitloads of experienced and trained reserves coming in
Germans should have dug in as soon as rasputitsa set in await the winter out

>>3356258
Why are you repeating debunked memes

>>3355059
Holy fucking shit, why are you posting on a history board if you obviously hate history and want to destroy the field with your faggotry

>>3356295
>>3356295
Where is the evidence that German divisions were not understrength, or that these understrength divisions would've been able to overcome a massive entrenched red army concentration in urban terrain that far from their supply lines?

>>3356307
Because it's true, they lost the chance to cut the rail link to Moscow, now what happens even with those Panzer divisions present is something entirely different. Even if Moscow fell I highly doubt Germany would suddenly win the Eastern Front

>>3356258
Germans did a lot of things wrong but Kiev encirclement wasn't one of them
Do you really want at least half a million soviet troops chilling on the flanks of your main advance thrust?

>>3356326
It was the correct decision, but it's a big reason why Typhoon was a bit of a shit show

>>3356295
>At the end, they don't really have much more to say than wikipedia and jewish virtual library :

So numerous academic publications are a dubious source.

Then what with what are we supposed to base our arguments on? What do you base them on? Tell me your sources, I'll gladly see them.

>>3356325
I agree that taking Moscow wouldn't have won the war

http://sys.4chan.org/derefer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.operationbarbarossa.net%2Fthe-siberian-divisions-and-the-battle-for-moscow-in-1941-42%2F

>>3356342
Post a source the is either non propoganda primary or peer reviewed academic. Without either of those, your words are worth less than a kosher fart.

>>3356381
You didn't use any source there. You're talking out of your ass. Post sources or gtfo

>>3356381
But they got pushed back from it in the Autumn...

>>3356304
>the soviets had shitloads of experienced and trained reserves coming in
Pretty much 100% of Soviet formations introduced into the Moscow front were newly raised.

>>3356381
>Let's take away that winter and see how well ivan will fight :)
Stalingrad.jpg

>>3356342
>It was still the winter that won them that war,
No, it was the overwhelming and enduring strategic advantage. After the early and temporary collapse(that has been contained), the Soviets successfully employed defence in depth and were constantly launching effective counter-attacks. And those were possible, because despite the fact Wermacht generally held the tactical advantage(at least in the early period) the front line became so huge it was impossible to fully cover. And even if the Soviets suffered heavier losses, they simply could afford them, due to much larger manpower and industrial output. Nazi Germany had no chance to win a war of attrition, and it had to become a war of attrition due to the Soviet's Union geography, population and determined command.

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>>3356403
>Far Eastern Front
>Newly raised

>>3356408
You won't post any sources, so you're an ahistorical shill. Shoo

>>3356258
When the Soviets were faced with the same situation in Germany (empty capital flanked by bazilion angry men) they made the same decision: stop to turn and destroy the force to the flank. This is strategy 101, in both situations the invading force realized that if they rushed into the capital they would simply be trapped there and end up leaving it, possibly as prisoners. Basically Berlin and Moscow would have been bait. The difference in these cases is that the Red Army was not completely and utterly immobilized by logistical failures. Germany lacked the capacity to even maintain a sizeable force at such a distance regardless of enemies opposing them.

>>3356408
>Can you not appeal to authority everytime you fucking idiot?
Do you literally have no other arguments than insulting your opponents and claiming victory like Hitler in '45?

>>3356416
>believing in the "far eastern front" meme
I remember when the meme used to be all of Siberia, now it's just Far Eastern oblast which didn't exist in 1941?

>>3356381
>Let's take away that winter and see how well ivan will fight :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk

Or the fact that it took place in July was also manipulated by the (((academics)))?

>>3356427
It's a front not an oblast dickhead, a military formation that existed since 1938 and not an administrative region for the government

>>3356413
Here's a neat trick:

If a person declares that all sources of historical validity are invalid (peer reviewed academic sources, primary sources that aren't straight from propagandists), then uses no sources themselves, what does that make them?

You're not 'questioning the narrative', you're just being a shill. You provide no counternarrative aside from what you wish to be true, and you contribute no value.

You're worse than a Stalinist, at least they have a coherent (if intellectually and morally bankrupt) system of thought.

>>3356403
no
those were Siberian divisions, trained in winter conditions and veterans against the Japanese in Khalkin Gol

>>3356432
Sources on what exactly do you need?

That the Soviets had more people, equipment and high command and were not restrained by a retard larping as Julius Caesar thinking he's an expert on everything?

>>3356445
Prove that weather was the decisive factor above the ones I've mentioned.

Also, why haven't your master race prepared for bad weather? Seems like they were plain stupid.

>>3356432
See
>>3356428
>>3356360
>>3355059
>>3355007

>>3356416
Maybe 4 divisions from the Far Eastern Front participated in the battle of Moscow, one of those 4 being an understrength armored division that was formed in the summer of 1941.

>>3356398
and yet still you somehow forgot to post YOUR sources (like you had any apart from retarded /pol/ tier publications at best).

really makes you think

>>3356381
>Let's take away that winter and see how well ivan will fight :)
Kursk, Bagration, Stalingrad, the list goes on

>>3356455
Soviets were outnumbered in the battle of Moscow.

>>3356304
>Germans should have dug in as soon as rasputitsa set in await the winter out
" Also of note is the fact that the unusually early winter of 1941 cut short the rasputitsa season, improving logistics in early November, while weather still being only mildly cold."
http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/download/csipubs/chew.pdf

>>3356338
It was the reason Typhoon got as far as it did; the diversion of Heersgruppe Mitte prompted the Roslavl–Novozybkov Offensive; which cost the Red Army roughly half of their troops between Smolensk and Moscow.

>>3356472
>That's why they went for the oil
And then promptly halted the offensive to waste time and lives on Stalingrad, and if someone comes out with some stupid shit about muh flanks you can fuck right off, they obviously didn't give a shit about that when they decided to launch a fucking attack into the Caucasus in the first place

>>3356304
>Germans should have dug in as soon as rasputitsa set in await the winter out
They will wait until May of 1942 while the Soviets are getting stronger by the day with lend-lease equipment and training.

>>3356472
>Literally not one soviet counter attack succeded that was noteworthy before stalingrad.
What is Toporecko-Kholmskaya operation?

>>3356486
Germany could have potentially bled the Red Army white if they focused on a defensive mindset since the end of the Barbarossa offensive, it certainly would have gone better than being retarded about Fall Blau

>>3356498
>Germany could have potentially bled the Red Army white if they focused on a defensive mindset since the end of the Barbarossa offensive, it certainly would have gone better than being retarded about Fall Blau
How would Germany bleed the Red Army in a war of attrition when it has fewer men, fewer resources, is fighting in hostile territory, and has no overseas support?

>>3355598
>>3355206
>>3355189
>>3355139
>>3356067
>>3356078
>>3356124
>>3356136
>>3356295
Notice how the worst posts in this thread are all made by the same delusional /pol/tards. It's sad, really.

>inb4 "go away reddit!!! 4chan is national socialist (it isn't and never was)!!! kikepedia! jew sources! you have to go back xDDD!!!"
it's quite pathetic. Even the dumb lurkers will have been turned off by your posts by now.

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>>3356499
>Straight from Israel.
>Israel shilling for the Russian military

>>3356485
>And then promptly halted the offensive to waste time and lives on Stalingrad

Yeah because taking the caucasus without taking stalingrad is an option...

God you guys are so fucking retarded how about you educate yourself before you write down something on this board.

>>3356498
Because yes, teh Soviets are idiots and are going to look at their options of

>Now that the enemy has stopped advancing, sit back, build up, and hit a point of their line with overwhelming force

Or

>Make half-assed attacks everywhere along the line to get all your men killed

and choose the latter.

>>3356472
>Literally not one soviet counter attack succeded that was noteworthy before stalingrad. Even the moscow one failed.
It has succedeed in removing the immediate threat from Moscow.

And Soviet counter-attacks wouldn't have to be spectacular, that's what you don't understand. Surely most of them lacked the scope of muh Operation Typhoon, Citadel or other idiotic and blind Nazi undertakings. But, here's the thing - they had to do 1 thing to be "effective". To wear down the enemy, as the Nazis eventually had to face a shortage in manpower and resources.

>The soviets didn't have infinite men and had even shittier morale. This whole infinite manpower meme is just that a meme.
What meme? They had twice larger manpower, at least. They could count on that, and you haven't proposed any compelling solution to the Soviet numerical advantage.

>>3356472
>That's why they went for the oil

And they failed miserably. Your point?
>>3356475
I was just referring to the whole Eastern Front.

>>3356499
I just can't listen to this shit anymore. Jesus, I never thought I'd say it but you /pol/tards are absolutely the most retarded board out there. Not even /x/ and /mlp/ beat you. Congrats you fucking inbred faggots.

Also reported

>>3356514
>Yeah because taking the caucasus without taking stalingrad is an option...
They were doing fine without it, they'd reached Chechnya when Hitler decided to fight over a city that was obviously a trap
>>3356517
Germany is still in a better position by not losing an entire army

>>3356485
>And then promptly halted the offensive to waste time and lives on Stalingrad,
Actually offensives on the oil fields continued and they even took Maykop, though failing in taking Baku and Grozny.

>>3356509
Did it?
>>3356521
I will post sources, just tell me what specific claim you doubt.

>>3356526
>Germany is still in a better position by not losing an entire army
They're in a better position of putting off their inevitable defeat for longer. They won't win with this strategy.

>>3356540
Winning was never really an option tbqh

>>3356499
>You are just too stupid to realize the shit you sip IS the propaganda.
And you aren't sipping /pol/'s propaganda? How come you claim any objectivity if you can't prove it?

>>3356530
That was an utterly disgustingly bad post. Let's break it down.
>No arguments presented whatsoever, just a string of ad hominem attacks
>even then relies on 'reddit' and 'kike' crutches because his inferior mind is unable to produce new insults
>complete lack of grammatical sense
>can't even use punctuation correctly

Even if you're baiting the mere fact that you spent three hours trying this means that the joke is still, after all, on you. I hope you stop posting soon because you're actively wasting server space that could be used for something else. Disgraceful.

>>3356499
>You are just too stupid to realize the shit you sip IS the propaganda.
Prove that we are the ones sipping propaganda and not you. So far you haven't posted anything to validate yourself.

>>3356533
One of the succesful Soviet counter attack before Stalingrad, Rostov Operation was another.

>>3356553
And who why were the unsupported Romanians Germans knew didn't fight well unsupported on the flanks again? Because Germany committed too many reserve units to Stalingrad, Paulus was a fucking dipshit

>>3356560
The burden of proof is on the man who accuses all opposing posters of using 'jew sources', my sub-average IQ friend

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>>3356553
ahh yes

And why did the Romanian flanks fail? Racial inferiority?

>>3356558
But they killed half a million Germans during Barbarossa when they were surprised, disorganized, isolated, and underequipped.

>>3356579
Compared to millions of Russians and all the land up to Moscov, Barbarossa was an utter failure for the Russians.

>>3356587
So, are you going to make an argument instead of autistically screeching about random middle Easterners?

>>3356578
Again, post the evidence that the weather was the decisive factor on the Eastern Front, above all the strategic considerations.

>>3356587
>The proof is reality. and the fact that you believe the mainstream jew media

You need to clarify that proof.

Also when did we talk about any media at all? Why are you changing subject out of sudden? You have a thing to prove - that /pol/ isn't propaganda. Post your arguments and sources, my friend.

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>>3356558
>easily, the russians can't fight for shit, literally meat without guns
Hmmm...
>>3356590
It was an utter failure, yet they managed to defend Moscow and eventually recover. Also, they managed to inflict the highest losses Wermacht has suffered so far.

>>3356578
Frankly the fact that you can't even coherently present what I was saying in a post that can't have been more than 200 characters long is pathetic. It appears that you can't even comprehend how poor your grammar is, so let me make it clear how bad you are at communicating in this post >>3356530.

>too lazy to add a single period to the end of his first line or use capital letters in any capacity
>doesn't appear to realise that commas exist at all
>can't tell the difference between "to refute" and "to rebut"
>can't even space his exclamation marks correctly

Even for 4chan you are functionally illiterate. The fact that you've run out of words and are now copying my insults just emphasises to everyone reading your posts that you have the communication and vocabulary of a 5-year old immigrant from Abyssinia. I'd be surprised if you could even walk on your own two feet. I wasn't a supporter of eugenics before now but I realise that Hitler had a point when he killed all the retards, because you perfectly illustrate why they shouldn't be allowed to pollute public discourse. Still doesn't make him a competent leader and military strategist, though.

>>3356615
Reality

>>3356638
Ooh good adaptation, I like the way that you start using "the fact that" in your posts. At least you can learn, somewhat. Though I doubt you'll actually remember this conversation longer than the 39 minutes at a time your long-term memory lasts. Still, the fact that you can even respond with a poorly-written, hackneyed copy of my own posting style despite your obvious chronic mental deficiency is impressive in itself. I hope you get the hope you need, someday.

>>3356638
>and also you haven't had a credible source at all beside wikipedia.
http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/download/csipubs/chew.pdf

Also, prove that these specific Wikipedia articles aren't credible, they quote numerous publications.

>>3356136
I've probably been on 4chan longer than you've been able to form words, kid.

>>3356685
Homosexual Jewish atheist communists of course

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>>3356657
It was certainly poorly-written. Especially compared to mine. I can afford to be smug because I'm not the one embarrassing myself on an anonymous Fair Isle knitting aficionado bulletin board. Hitler did a terrible job of killing my family, by the way. My grandfather managed to swim across a French river under fire in 1940 for a dare. Although even there your beloved Hitler did a better job than trying to invade Russia, which he fucked up terribly. Much like you made a complete hash of trying to spread your worthless agenda in support of a long-dead ideology on this fine website, which has led to great embarrassment on your part.

>>3356524
No?
The fiercest fighting took place in August/September/October
if Ivan couldn't fight, nazis should have taken the city easily you fucking braindead stormfaggot

>>3356702
>90% of land and still can't stop them crossing the fucking river

>>3356171
Fuck me, I'm remembering the Hal Turner days and wondering how old this kid was then.

>>3356702
>doesn't realise they took 90% of the city by november
it means absolutely fucking nothing if they still keep pouring troops across the river and you fail in your objective (taking the fucking city)
Stalingrad was a big trap for the 6th Army and Hitler took the bait like the idiot he was

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>>3356381
>Let's take away that winter and see how well ivan will fight

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration

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>>3356752
>it has never been dead
>Only major movements are some LARPers on the internet pretending they're the master race
>Even that's losing out to civic nationalist memers from fucking reddit
Loving every laugh

>>3356381

This is ironically the mindset that lost the actual war. The Wehrmacht was sabotaged by nazi meme magicians at every turn, stupidity doesn't pay.

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>>3356751
And the best part was Bagration was a "diversion" for the assault near Lvov. The whole 1944 Soviet Summer Offensive was ridiculous.

>>3354862
It was too late.
Plus, Russia is really big and transporting supplies over hundreds of kilometers with the majority of the population there hating your guts/not willing to cooperate in transporting said supplies with one of the shittiest infrastructures in the world meant that the average Wehrmact soldier was half-frozen and starving at the gates of Moscow.

The Germans were at the end of their rope, the Counteroffensive that followed after would push them back to Rzhev. To those who thought it was a failure, the Russian army was still an untrained mass of soldiers, and the German Army, still one of the best trained in the world, was now on the defensive until Case Blau.

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>>3356812
Exactly. For all its flaws, the fact is that the Soviets still managed to launch a general offensive across the entire Eastern Front in the dead of winter after losing literally millions of men. The Germans were doomed from the start.

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>>3356835
The Crimean front has always interested me, is there anywhere I can read up on it?

>>3356864
Where the Iron Crosses Grow by Robert Forczyk is an excellent book that covers almost the entire war. Starts with air attacks launched on Romania from Crimea when Barbarossa began and covers the German conquest, occupation, Soviet liberation, and a bit of the postwar situation.

> if you're not /pol/ then you are reddit

So is this like the right/left paradigm of the internet?

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>>3356590
The Germans suffered losses of manpower and material much larger than any other campaign since, and had higher rates of KIA and death from wounds than either WW1 or the French campaign. The Soviets may have lost millions of men but they were able to raise millions more throughout the war.
If the goal of Barbarossa was to destroy the Soviet Union as a fighting force in one swift campaign and reach the A-A line, then it was the Germans who failed.

>>3356885
Oh shit it covers the entirety of Crimea from 1941-1944, cheers, anon. As a token of my gratitude, have these journals that discuss US and Soviet diplomatic personnel, 1941-43 and an interesting incident among USSR and U.S troops
http://sci-hub.cc/10.1080/13518049908430404
http://sci-hub.cc/10.1080/13518049808430344

lol, did the /pol/ autist got banned?

>>3356835
Pretty much. I mean, go "muh racial superiority" all you'd like, but Hitler's campaign accross Russia can be compared to the French campaign around a hundred years ago, then- a well trained army bogged down trying to conquer a nation several times the landmass and population of the invaders.

There's no way it could've worked. A hypothetical war between the US and USSR is a much more interesting example, or if Germany tried to actually appeal to a broader sense of anti-communism in the USSR instead of National Socialism.

>>3356885
>six DB-3F bombers attacked the Ploesti oil refinery - a critical source of fuel for the Wehrmacht - and managed to damage a refinery and set 9,000 tons of oil on fire.
That's impressive, seems like a good book.

>>3356918
Mods restored my faith in this board...

>>3356979
Ironically Germany could have won... without Hitler

Having a government that would...
>Listen to the fucking Generals
>Bring proper winter supplies and clothing
>Prepare for a long campaign rather than believe in Nazi delusions that the Soviet Union would simply roll over and collapse
>Set up a puppet White Russian government that could rally the people to your side
And suddenly Germany's chances to destroy Communism look much better.

Ordinary Russians despised Stalin and initially welcomed the Germans as liberators... before the massive atrocities against ethnic Ukrainians, Russians and other Slavs begun

>>3357014
Oh boy it's the old Hitler excuse. No. Hitler just became a convenient scapegoat postwar for people trying to salvage careers. Lots of famous generals (looking at you, Manstein) loved to blame Hitler for anything and everything that went wrong in the war. Manstein goes as far as omitting anything that went wrong that he *can't* blame on Hitler. The fact is that Germany was fucked either way.

>>3357031
I wonder why no one ever talks about Mansteins retarded misuse of the autistically huge railway guns to shell an ammunition dump instead of bunkers during Sevastopol?

>>3357044
Or the fact that he thought a breakout should be tried at Stalingrad...using 2 divisions.

>>3357014
>Listen to the fucking Generals
>Proceeds to list ways Hitler should have ignored his Generals.

>>3357044
That's the best part - the railway guns never even managed to hit the ammo dump despite German claims. And they did try to use them against the bunkers, but the problem was that the railway guns weren't accurate enough to reliably disable them.

>>3357014
>Set up a puppet White Russian government that could rally the people to your side
It doesn't really work like that, anon. Germany had no hope of rallying Russians to its side because Germany could not survive without exploiting occupied territories.

>>3357066
Well they couldn't even stop the boats when they had almost total air superiority in the later parts, so it's not shocking they couldn't hit a fucking ammo dump with a giant dick cannon either

>>3356979
>Several times the landmass and population of the invaders.
Not as much as you make it sound like.

>Axis was not just Germany
>Lots of Soviet citizens got caught on the German side of the front and some of them even joined Germany
>French, Dutch and Czech industry served the German war machine

They couldn't move for an entire autumn because of rasputitsa. They were completely stuck. They had to wait until the ground froze in order to attack at all. By then the Soviets reinforced defences and prepared their own counteroffensive.

>>3357077
>Axis was not just Germany
Quite right, it was a conglomerate of almost useless allies. Bulgaria didn't even fucking send anything. Are you going to imply the Hungarians and Romanians were quality formations? The main Romanian triumph of the war was telling Manstein to get fucked and raise a flag in Sevasopol

>>3357091
>Are you going to imply the Hungarians and Romanians were quality formations?
80% of German formations were poor quality as well. That's just how it is in total war involving millions of conscripts.

>>3357103
They were far higher quality, with more machine guns, mortars and artillery than most Hungarian, Italian, Romanian or Finnish units

>>3357066
Why use them at all?
Fucking rip that shit off and build 20 tanks instead

>>3356486
>Lend lesse
>Implying this meme was anything more the a thing the allies did to Stay they """""helped""""
Woo geez britain thx for those 200 outdated combat used spitfires

>>3357113
Same could be said for the Bismarck and Tirpitz, how many U-Boats could they have built with that?

>>3357091
Still nullifies the claim that invaders were overwhelmingly outnumbered.

>>3357138
They were though, the Axis could achieve local superiority but not total

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>>3357145
By the end of Barbarossa where lived more people, in lands controlled by Soviets or in lands of Axis?

>>3357206
Were those people assets to the Axis or hindrances? Choose carefully and remember most weren't of military age or trained professionals

>>3357219
Definitly assets, with the exception of Yugoslavia.

>>3357044
Reminded that he was encircle at the baltic states at the early phases of barbarrosa

>>3357282
So you think a populace rampant with partisans blowing up railway lines and murdering police units is conducive to a war effort? Quite the interesting opinion

>>3357304
Oh, you meant the Soviets too. My point about them was that these people could not join the Red army or serve in Soviet factories, thus they don't count as Soviet manpower. Balts and other minorities were mostly loyal to Germany, offering many high morale forces. And lets not forget that high partisan activity is direct result of Nazi policy.

>>3357352
>Balts and other minorities were mostly loyal to Germany
At the start, that dropped off very quickly by 1942 when they started to realize Germany wasn't quite as benevolent as they thought

>>3357352
>Balts and other minorities were mostly loyal to Germany
>In the beginning of 1943 Nazi occupational government attempted to raise a Waffen-SS division from the local population as they had in many other countries, but the mobilization was boycotted with less than 300 men reporting.[4][5] The Nazis carried out reprisals against the population and deported 46 prominent figures and members of the intelligentsia to the Stutthof concentration camp.
No.

>>3357380
Up to 70k Estonians served in Axis as of 1944 and they proved to be quite an asset. There were also 80k Latvians. Lithuanians were the least friendly to Germans, but still were more of an asset rather than a hindrance.

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>>3354862
>What went wrong? Why did Operation Typhoon fail?

The Soviets knew it was coming, as the Poles had hacked the German comminutions network prior to WWII and passed this on to the British, who let the Soviets know what was heading their way.

This allowed the Soviets to prepare and build multiple defensive lines and station reserve forces behind them.

>>3358828

Sorry, I though that map was of Kursk.

>>3358828
>>3358837
Even in regards to Kursk, it wasn't Enigma decoding that tipped the Soviets off so much as the HUGE FUCKING SALIENT is the obvious point of attack.

What's with half the posts being deleted?

>>3358899
You had a baiting stormfag come in about how Germans rule, Soviets were retarded subhuman monkeys who only won on human waves, and any source contradicting that is DA JOOOZ AND THEYRE JOOOISH LIES!.

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>>3358855
>HUGE FUCKING SALIENT

The Kursk salient was an obvious target and both sides knew this but the Soviets also knew (via the hacked German comm network) when it was coming and that meant the Germans weren’t coming somewhere else and this meant the Soviets could utilize their resources at the right time and place and prepare ahead of time.

The battle was lost before it even got started.