Is there any proof of Holodomor ever taking place?

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>>3351652

>>3351666
Stop posting this meme image. Katyn committed by nazis, wtf. Like the whole image is preposterous but the one that surprises me the most is the claim about Katyn.

>>3351696
Nice revisionism you got there, now show proofs.

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>>3351652

sage Stalinist trash

>>3351704
Attributing the Katyn Massacre to the nazis is revisionist, retard.

>>3351652
There was indeed a famine during that time, but it was certainly not genocide.

>>3354358
It's not just Katyn. Every single claim in that retarded picture is pure bait. It's so empty I'm pretty sure it's made by someone who just wants attention. I mean by this point /leftypol/ must realized that no one takes them seriously. Here they can't mute people who actually know what socialism means.

Everything we ever think of happening happened.

Except Atlantis.

>>3354409
There are more than enough proofs that Hitlerites did it.

>>3354452
Yeah I'm sure Putin's ministers will find something. 20 or so years after Russia already admitted their guilt. Not that they needed to.
1.The crime was commited in Spring of 1940 in Soviet Union before Barbarossa.
2.There are witnesses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82aw_Swianiewicz
3.Victims were killed the NKVD way, and their names were listed according to the Russian alphabet.
4.The so-called Ukrainian list released by Russia gave them names. We're still waiting for the Belarusian list.
5.There were other people sentenced to death who were only saved by Sikorski-Majski agreement and those known among the victims were captured after fighting with the Soviets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82aw_Haller

Also it wasn't the first, last or even the biggest crime commited by the Soviets on the Polish nation.

>>3351652
>Is there any proof of Holodomor ever taking place?

The photos.

>Or having anything to do with Soviet government?

State policy ala collectivization. Also Stalin's own writing on the necessity of killing all of the "kulaks" https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1930/01/21.htm

>>3354452
fucking kek, even the Nuremberg tribunal wouldn't pin Katyn on the nazis

>>3354537
There were some people who were more involved than others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Kosior

>>3354541
Goering was amused by that idea.

>>3354546
>"Stanislav Kosior withstood brutal tortures [at the hands of the NKVD] but cracked when his sixteen-year-old daughter was brought into the room and raped in front of him."
based Yezhov was on the ukies side the whole time

>>3354464
(((truth)))
>>3354537
>The photos.
Ive seen people using pics from 1921 famine that was directly caused by the civil war, cool evidence.

>>3354619
how do you know the pics were from the civil war and not the Holodomor?

>>3354628
Because all web pages with that photo say its from 1921-1922 famine except for (((Holodomor Info)))

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>>3351652
Stalin did nothing wrong, the Kulaks deserved worse. It's insane that people straight up deny that the landowners burned grain rather than share it with the reset of the population, which is what caused the famine in the first place.

>>3354678
The Kulaks did nothing wrong and every last B*lshevik only deserved to be decorating trees.

>>3354553
>but cracked when his sixteen-year-old daughter was brought into the room and raped in front of him."
are Russians capable of doing ANYTHING like human beings?

>>3354678
>>>/leftypol/

>>3354724
Yezhov wasnt Russian

>>3354733
Eh doesn't matter, the old Soviet system had plenty of ethnic Russians more than happy to engage in completely sadistic shit.

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sure is Tankie ITT

>>3354733
Yezhov was the only head of the NKVD that was Russian

>>3351666
>666

Satan confirmed a Stalinist


also russian government admitted to the katyn massacre, lmao.

>>3351652
Unlike most soviet leaders Stalin never really kept any secret records of what he did to the later generations. Usually these kind of things are made so future generations knows what happened and why when they are released to the public decades later. So take that as you will, was Stalin a lazy person or did he have something to hide?

>>3354724
>In the "Letter of an Old Bolshevik" (1936), written by Boris Nicolaevsky, there is this contemporary description of Yezhov:
>In the whole of my long life, I have never met a more repellent personality than Yezhov's. When I look at him I am reminded irresistibly of the wicked urchins of the courts in Rasterayeva Street, whose favorite occupation was to tie a piece of paper dipped in kerosene to a cat's tail, set fire to it, and then watch with delight how the terrified animal would tear down the street, trying desperately but in vain to escape the approaching flames. I do not doubt that in his childhood Yezhov amused himself in just such a manner and that he is now continuing to do so in different forms.

>(((Nadezhda Mandelstam))), in contrast, who met Yezhov at Sukhum in the early thirties, did not perceive anything ominous in his manner or appearance; her impression of him was that of a 'modest and rather agreeable person'.[7]
makes you think, doesn't it?

>>3354818
He was Lithuanian Jew

>>3354863
No he wasn't. Now go back to >>>/pol/

>>3354863
he was possibly born in Lithuania, but there's no evidence he was Lithuanian or Jewish

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>>3351666
>>3352418
>>3354382
>>3354678
Commie revisionists get out, REEEEE

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>>3356640
You can't handle the truth, classcuck.

>>3351652
>Is there any proof of Holodomor ever taking place?
Russians say so, westerners say so and so do historians, I don't think how could anyone say otherwise.

>>3356649
1.
> lol Stalin didn't kill 60000000 but just 20000000, get fucked you kulak
You can take the lowest estimate and you still get tens of millions dead
2.
> killing farmers
> introducing idea that plants are communists
> collective farms led by commies from cities
> 3 great purges
> Four Pests Campaign
> executions during cultural revolution
> killing people with glasses and destroying cites
and so on...
3.
I don't say that Capitalism doesn't have flaws, but it still has less than communism.

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>>3356649
>the private property system kills 100 to 200 million people every ten years by starvation alone.
>10 million Children who die annually due to preventable diseases in capitalist countries.

>>3356748
The lowest estimates is like 3-5 million. The highest today is 20 million. Overall it's likely that 10-15 million people died from unnatural deaths during Stalin regime. It's of course a lot, but the demonization of communist regimes really reached some ridiculous levels during the Cold War.

>>3356748
actual number is about 3 milions and it includes revisionist contrarevolutionary communists killed in purges (which is about 1 milion+ they were caused by Yezhov) and 3 000 000 of Zionist Kulaks. So Stalin killed 0 people that were innocent.

>>3356772
Highest estimate is 60 million, 20 million is just the closest thing to reality and "Today, most historians seem to have settled on a total of about 20 million."

https://historyofrussia.org/stalin-killed-how-many-people/

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>>3356649
the left cant meme.

>>3356805
This highest estimate is based on virtually nothing.

>20 million is just closest thing to reality
It's not. You literally can't prove that Stalin killed 20 million people. It's definitely not in any sources.

This site is a joke. Please use scholary articles, not pop history.

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>>3356783
> anyone who wasn't Stalinist deserved to die
Slow down there buddy, you're going 120 revisionist/hour in 80 revisionist/hour lane.

>>3356825
> based on nothing
Hitler and Stalin: Parallel Lives
Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin
Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar
How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen
The Great Terror: A Reassessment

Majority of historians

>>3356845
>Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin
9 million for Stalin.

For some reason he didn't mention that.

>>3356772
>The highest today is 20 million
Of course it's like that today when Marxists have overtaken the history departments of academia and destroyed it like the Ukraine

>>3356866
I'm talking about historians who in the 1960s talked about 40-60 million killed by Stalin. After they opened Soviet archives in the 90s this narration simply fell apart.

fucking wew

>>3356880
>Using infamously censored Soviet documents

You might as well be using Red cross numbers for the Holocaust

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>>3356921

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>>3356761
>>3356823

Keep in denial, wage slaves. capitalism is killing this planet.

>>3356831
People that werent "Stalinist" as you call it were Zionist contrarevolutionary race traitors.

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>>3356845
>Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar
Even a fucking Revolution betrayed by Bronstein is closer to truth than books from that French kike.

>>3356924
>censored
They weren't censored. That's why they remained classified until the fall of the Soviet Union.

>red cross numbers for the holocaust
They actually don't come from the Red Cross.

>>3356989
It's funny how anti-communists don't believe in objective statistical data from Soviet archives, but believe in every silly accusation brought up during show trials.

>>3357019
iam anti-communist myself and i still like USSR, Stalin, Mao etc. much more than USA and Jewish Bronsteinist revisionists.

>>3356989
>>3356978
Everyone who dislikes Stalin is a lying kike.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUZ8N9mCzLQ

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>>3357025
> I am anti-communist myself and i still like USSR, Stalin, Mao etc.
What even is this.

>>3357039
they were moralyl supperior compared to the West by the time they existed

>>3357025
>I'm not gay, I just like suck dicks

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>>3356969
My bayonet awaits you, commie scum.

If communism is so great why did it fall?

>>3356969
>wage slaves
You know how I know you're poor...

>>3357130
If capitalism is so great, why did it fell in Russia, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, entire Eastern Europe, half of Africa and Latin America?

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>>3357090
> SSSR and Mao China are morally superior to west

>>3357177
Literally all those places gave up communism after a few decades and went back to capitalism, you red twit

>>3357177
But those places now are capitalist.

>>3357177
Because some commies showed up and started shooting everyone.

>>3357177
>Russia
Was always communist
>China
Feudalist
>Vietnam
Colonialism
>Eastern Europe
Fascism
>half of Africa
Africans don't have ideologies
Feudalism

Literally none of these nations was capitalist

>>3357177
>state capitalism

>>3357197
>>3357202
>>3357208
This is literally not an argument
>>3357227
>Russia was always communist
top kek
>China was feudalist
No
>Vietnam was colonialist
It was capitalist colony, colonialism isnt economy model.
>Eastern Europe was Fascist
What the fuck
>Africans don't have ideologies, colonialism is feudalism now

>>3351704
http://www.katyn-books.ru/archive/1940_2000/doc/13doc.html
From Polish Wikipedia:
"On March 2, 1940, Lavieriu Beria (Head of the NKVD), sent a secret note 794 / Б (794 / Б) to Józef Stalin. [...] claimed that the NKVD USSR considers it justified:
shooting 14,700. prisoners and 11 thousand. prisoners, without summoning convicts, without presenting charges without a decision to terminate the investigation and indictment."

>>3357280
(((Polish Wikipedia)))

>>3357288
Natalia Lebiediewa: 60 lat fałszowania i zatajania historii zbrodni katyńskiej ; "60 years of falsification and concealment of the history of the Katyn massacre", [w:] Zeszyty Katyńskie (nr 12), Warsaw 2000, s. 97, 104, 107–110. ISBN 83-905877-6-9

Now, happy?

>>3357276
>Eastern Europe was Fascist
the>What the fuck
Do you seriously not know who the Nazis were?

>>3357311
All informations about her are in Polish, i highly doubt that that person exists.

>>3357318
Socialists?

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>>3357311
You can say every bullshit about Poles, Holocaust, World War II and Stalin, but never FUCKING NEVER say that katyn massacre was false.

>>3357319
>not an argument

>>3357318
>Hitler controlled Eastern Europe from feudalism to 1945
>>3357328
it was

>>3357338
>not an argument

>>3357338
" from feudalism to 1945"????

>>3357345
You claimed that capitalism did not existed in Eastern Europe
Also Hitler wasnt Fascist

>>3357276
>Eastern Europe was Fascist
the>What the fuck
Do you seriously not know who the Nazis were?

>>3357356
Polish history goes thus:
Feudal Commonwealth>Feudal Russia>Fascist Polish Republic>Nazi Germany>gommies

>>3357416
>Feudal Russia
illiterate USian spotted

>>3357416
>Fascist Polish Republic
go back to school

>>3351652
All of the starved dead bodies? I'm not sure if I'd call it a genocide, but it was still mass murder committed by the Soviet government. Tankie apologists and butthurt Russian nationalists are the only ones claiming it didn't happen at all if that's what you mean. I don't see why it's so hard to believe, the Soviets had absolutely no problem with population transfers, violent purges, repression of minorities, etc.

>>3357456
i wanna see proof of (((Holodomor))) having anything to do with Soviet government

>>3357177
> Russia, China, Latin America, Vietnam, Cambodia, half of Africa
All of these were aristocratic countries that tried to turn into democratic countries driven by markets in few years with no foundation for this change, which resulted in political instability and rise of alternative political systems that ultimately always failed and the country reversed to capitalist democracy.

>>3351652
Oh boy, here come the far left version of Holocaust deniers...

>>3357500
policy of killing farmers?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekulakization

Saying that plants are communists?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism#Repercussions

>>3357552
aristocratism isnt opposite of capitalism
>>3357599
policy of killing people that cause famines isnt causing famines
And you got Lysenkism wrong as almost everyone that ever mentioned it, bring the meme about Lysenko freezing all the trees in Ukraine which caused famine pls.

>>3357616
> aristocratism isn't opposite of capitalism
1. That's not what I said Karl.
2. Not everything is a polar opposite you mongoloid
3. I said that they tried to change their political system too quickly and failed

> policy of killing people that cause famines isnt causing famines
> policy that cause famines isn't causing famines
Nice logic faggot

Lysenkoism:
> The pseudo-scientific ideas of Lysenkoism assumed the heritability of acquired characteristics.[1] Lysenko's theory rejected Mendelian inheritance and the concept of the "gene"; it departed from Darwinian evolutionary theory by rejecting natural selection.[2] Proponents falsely claimed to have discovered, among many other things, that rye could transform into wheat and wheat into barley, that weeds could spontaneously transmute into food grains, and that "natural cooperation" was observed in nature as opposed to "natural selection".[2] Lysenkoism promised extraordinary advances in breeding and in agriculture that never came about.

>>3357616
>policy of killing people that cause famines isnt causing famines

I don't believe someone outside of brainwashed peasants from the 30s believe that. You must be like those role playing as flat earthers. What a waste of a thread.

>>3356649
>capitalism causes starvation
Name one capitalist society that has suffered an economic depression or famine where more than, say, a couple dozen people starved to death.

>>3356969
>Africa is a capitalist continent
>environmentalist leftist bans on DDT are capitalist
Really revalued my stock options

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>>3357898
brainwashed peasants and American propagandists from 60´s
>>3357917
Ireland, India

>>3357922
I don't know if this guy is legit retarded or just pretendng to be a commie but somewhere there are people who believe that. It's even more thoughtless than memes made by neonazis. I cannot believe it wasn't made by someone who wasn't trolling.

>>3357934
>Ireland, India
Ireland was victimized by being a colony and subjected to anti-capitalist Corn Laws, which caused much of the famine. India had its crops stolen by the British Empire for use in war, not capitalism.

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>>3357935
The "experts" agree.

>>3357957
Above all the British thought that they shouldn't intervene. However laissez faire should apply to all normal situation. The famine (result of potato infection) is a special case. I think they just didn't care.
Famines in India were common. The one from 1940s was caused by Churchill's embargo. At the very least the British enlarged the are of cultivated land in India.

>>3357957
>ban of import of grain into the British Isles caused famine in India

>>3358011
The British government dictated the terms of the value of grain, it wasn't the product of free market forces.

>>3358023
>state exists
>its communism
such a thing as a free market doesnt exist because of human nature you economic illitarate

>>3358034
I didn't say it was communism. The British Empire practiced a form of capitalism. However, it wasn't capitalist acts that caused famine, but instead regulatory and/or protectionist ones.

>>3358042
NOT REAL CAPITALISM

>>3358050
It's literally not capitalism. You cannot find an example where free market forces caused widespread famine because it doesn't happen.

>>3358142
because free market cant exist

>>3358147
Sure it does, or at least a reasonably free one. Obviously all markets have some regulation, but there has never been a case where a market wasn't regulated enough and caused widespread starvation.

>>3358170
I don't believe in the possibility of a stateless society so minimum taxation and no problem with starting a business is all you need. That's how we've come so far. And the realization that workers weren't getting poorer but richer was the reason why I think it was Engels who changed his beliefs a bit, which influenced Bernstein. I found some sources claiming that by the end Marx also believed that the freer the market the freer the people. Of course in their case it basically meant a slightly different path to communism. Which as we all know never came.

>>3358170
its not a free market then

>>3358205
>if I define everything narrowly to the point of having no real-life relevance I win the argument

>have your grain stolen repeatedly
>get beaten if you resist
>burn the grain in protest
>get genocided
>almost 100 years later, virgins on an anime image board defend Stalinism because muh evil landowners.

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>it's a neo-commies and neo-nazis shoot false info at each other episode

>>3358355
Are there any nazis here?

>>3358361
Kulaks were Nazis, clearly