ITT: Historical bad guys that are considered good guys by the

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This genocidal fucker

>>3348863
Have you spent the last fifteen years under a rock?

>>3348859

This so much.

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>>3348805
>Started a revolt because he was butthurt that in South Africa "Indians were treated as equal to the khaffirs" (In his words)
>Supported Hitler throughout WW2
>Said shit like "the Jews should've thrown themselves into the butchers' knives" and "If we had the atom bomb we would have used it against Britain"
>Disinherited his son and allowed him to die in poverty for shitty religious reasons
>Was overall a horrible little man, full of hatred, and his successors corrupt socialists that stagnated India

>Considered a saintly symbol of peaceful resistance worldwide

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A lot can be forgiven over him just being a straight dumbass. He also did some good promoting scientific projects. Everything else though was a complete failure, and I fucking hate the sleazy wink-and-a-smile standard he set for future Presidents, which now we're seeing at its most mutated and toxic.

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>>3348895
>"If we had the atom bomb we would have used it against Britain"

>>3348859
like it or not, he is not a villain, you faggot

>>3348895
you forgot the part about lying naked with per-prebuscent girls. Guy was a total perv

>>3348909
>Everything else though was a complete failure,

ITT: Liberal scum

>>3348933
Name one of his policies that worked
>War on Drugs
Dismal Failure
>Reaganomics
Failure
>Ending Communism
Gave a pithy speech when the USSR was in a tailspin

>>3348895
t. Nigel Hufflepuff

>>3348909
https://youtu.be/_iAzIkjO3G0?t=5m1s

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>>3348805
Tie between

(He's still quite popular in Russia for some reason)

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>>3348805
Or this man

>>3348944
This. Claiming Reagan ended communism is like walking to some catatonic hobo on the street dying of alcohol poisoning, loudly calling him a faggot and then claiming that's what killed him.

>>3348895
>>3348913
>"If we had the atom bomb we would have used it against Britain"
So Civ was right about him all along?

>>3348933
>defunded important programs to fund Star Wars, a defense program we dropped in the end anyway instead of finishing

>>3349155
What, you thought they were just meming? Never underestimate Gandhi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gftTXltifpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzx7IJn0mRo

>>3349172
Now just wait a minute...
Reagan funded Star Wars?

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>>3348805
I'm not a tankie or even a communist by any degree btw.

>>3349184
The missile defense program, not the movie

>>3348933
>Defending the one that gave amnesty to 3 million illegals
Kys cuckservative scum

>>3349148
>loudly calling him a faggot and then claiming that's what killed him.
What are you smoking, and can I buy it on ebay?

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>>3348805
Om not a stormfag but Churchill was horrible and evil

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>>3349148
> Claiming Reagan ended communism is like walking to some catatonic hobo on the street dying of alcohol poisoning, loudly calling him a faggot and then claiming that's what killed him.
This made my day.

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I love him, but he was a corrupt socialist.

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>>3348805
Pic VERY related.

>>3348917
>steals peoples ideas
>steals peoples inventions
>literally refuses to pay for people making improvements on his inventions under his employment
>plays dirty in all forms of business
>uses the fucking mob and the Pinkertons to get an edge on the competition

Youre a cuckold to the rich man, eagerly jumping into the cuckshed at the promise of overcharged power on faulty lines. The strongman takes and you give him exactly what he wants because youre a spiteful little coward who cant inflict his own misery on the rest of the world, so you worship those who do. Fuck human progress. Fuck common decency. Fuck basic infrastructure.

What kind of civilization needs that? Lets just let the oligarchs rape everyone and laud them for it. Surely that wont lead to problems down the line.

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>>3349148
Screen cap 4 you

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>>3348895
Screencapped

>>3348944
Wasn't the War on Drugs a Nixon policy that Reagan just escalated?

>>3349132
idk, maybe it's because he lifted the suffering of russians?

>>3350591

I never realised you could climb up the statue, that's pretty cool. Also I'm willing to forgive the mongolians for worshipping Gengis simply because of how irrelevant their country is now.

>>3349148

solid kek

>>3350624
>>>/leftypol/

>>3351649
This.

>>3349132
>>3349137
>>3351651
unironically kill yourselves

>>3349206
this

>>3351578
>>3351589
good bot

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>>3351651

>>3351646
>>/r_thedonald/

You have to go back

>>3348805
>Literally every hero

>>3351673
Can someone tell me where this mao vs sparrow meme comes from?

>>3349137
Nice try, but that man is the polar opposite.
>>3349206
Why do you think Trotsky is evil? Are you a Stalinist?

>post guys that most people consider good but are bad guys
>people start posting notorious villains that are recognised as evil
If you wanna express your autism post it in the correct thread please.

>>3351698
The Four Pests Campaign
lurk moar

>>3351698
>be mao
>want to produce more food
>notice that sparrows eat grain
>tell people to kill all the sparrows because that are little counter-revolutionary fucks and a symbol of the bugeois (not even kidding. Look this shit up)
>People kill a shitton of sparrows
>Sparrows no longer kill real pests
>Crops fail
>btfo out of your own population by accident

>>3351717
So you are a real marxist leninist, right?

>>3351717
No. I just think that he was a bad dude aswell.

>>3351756
For what reasons?

>>3351738
>ended importing sparrows in secret from the soviet union and re-writing The Four Pests Campaing to avoid shame

>>3351759
He was leader of the red army during Lenin's period. Take a look at the war crimes committed by the red army. Many were ordered by Trotsky himself.

>>3348895
>>3351589
These are all wrong or taken out of context.

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>>3348805
brit*sh

>>3351765
Like what crimes?
It was one of the messiest, filled with hate civil wars. It was full of "crimes". Especially towards the end when the reds were having enough of the white's bullshit (like trying to bring, and actually bringing a western foreign power, namely Britain, into eastern Russia and executing the local bolshevik Soviet after they stepped down peaceuflly from power to let them have charge)
The whites deserved alot of what they got. But even if they didn't, it was a messy and hateful wars. But I still want to hear what specific crimes you are referring to and why you think Trotsky is comparable to Stalin.

>>3351787
t. burger

>>3351779
Gassing civilians and robbing grain for example. The invasion of Poland in 1920 for example.

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>>3348805

>>3351797
>gassing civilians
When?
>robbing grain
robbing grain from your enemies is a sound plan if your people are starving
>"""""invasion""""" of poland
You mean when Poland decided to randomly butt-in the civil war and attacked the reds? dropped dude. You don't know anything of what you're talking about.

>>3351779
His idea of killing everyone and everything getting between him and the world communist revolution, for example.

>>3351808
He gassed villages that didn't want to give into quotas or that rebelled. He killed Cossack and kulak families systemmatically. He robbed grain from his own people.

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Arbitrators are kaffirs

>>3351808
https://youtu.be/KTHnTh6bNwc

>>3351649
He's the contrary
He's viewed as a bad guy by normies while he was a goof guy

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>>3348805

>>3349232
This one for sure

>>3351807
t. Humberto Fontova

>>3351787
How was he bad? Literally a nationalist for his people that had to LARP as a commie for a few years because your retarded government betrayed the Vietnamese to back up the French colonists. Then proceeded to btfo your massive army with a bunch of poor rice farmers and put his country on the path to development. 10/10 historical figure

>>3352012
He's only considered a bad guy in the English speaking world, and even then there's a lot that like him.

>>3352704
Kek

>>3352811
I'm not an American for starters. I think he was a cruel dictator that killed thousands.

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>>3351651

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>>3348805

>>3352437
Only retarded anarchists see them as good.

>>3352811
> a nationalist for his people that had to LARP as a commie
Same with Fidel Castro.

>>3351884
>actually posting alternatehistoryhub as as serious response in a debate about history

kill yourself my man. Cody probably has never taken a history course past HS.

>>3349132

Stalin is very much considered a bad guy though

>>3349206
This is the real answer. So many faggots unironically think "hurr evil stalin stole power from the peace loving and great trotsky!"

>>3348884
Columbus Day is still a holiday in like 40 states

>>3351617
>he lifted the suffering of russians
By killing and starving more of them? Stupid tankie.

>>3348863
>>3348884
>>3353212
>Columbus
>genocides
Are you retarded?

>>3353270
Literally hundreds of thousands got worked to death and/or executed

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>>3353275
>>3353270
>>3353212
>>3348863

t. american education

>>3348859
a thief.

>>3348805
Evil or not Che was based as fuck

>>3353292
>In just two years under Columbus Governorship through murder, mutilation, being worked to death or suicide more than half the 250,000 Indians in Haiti were dead

Howard Zinn

>"Haiti under the Spanish is one of the primary instances of genocide in Human history"

>"Columbus not only sent the first slaves acroiss the Atlantic, he sent more slaves than any other individual"

James Loewen

>There were 60,000 people living on this island [in 1508], including both Spaniards & Indians. So that between 1494 and 1508 more than three million people died from war, slavery and the mines.

>There were 60,000 people living on this island [in 1508], including both Spaniards & Indians. So that between 1494 and 1508 more than three million people died from war, slavery and the mines.
>Who in future generations will believe this?
>I myself as an eyewitness can scarce believe it
>What we committed in the Indies stands out amongst the most unpardonable offences ever committed against God and mankind and this trade [in Indian slaves] as one of the most unjust, evil and cruel among them

Bartolome de las Casas, Columbuses contemporary

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>>3353292

this isnt real right? Our school systems arent using "memes" to teach kids, right?

>>3348863
he was an idiot that got lucky. was brutal by even the standards of the day. though he isn't a monster and unlike A Fucking LEIF. He actually caused a massive historical impact on the entire world, because he told the rest of Europe about what he found.

>>3351633
just think about it. thousands of mongolians and others coming out of his crotch every year. Just like when he was alive.

>>3351649
gave europe constitutions, the metric system, sugar beet sugar, and kept a foreign powers from gaining control over france.

>>3351651
how did this idiot manage to keep power ?

>>3353316
>Slavery is genocide
>Conquering is genocide

I think genocide is a very flexible term, don't you think?

>>3348913
i really fucking hate this cunt

>>3353346
There were 3 mllion people on the island in 1494

There were only 60 thousand of them in 1508

How would you describe the process of getting from point A to point B

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>>3353315
Indeed.

>>3353353
Smallpox?

>>3353363
It wasn't smallpox.

>>3353353
maybe diseases wasn't a factor, right? also columbus was an asshole like literally every conqueror in this time, but genocide is a very defined term. he didn't want to eradicate indians rather like exploit them.

>>3353367
Do you really think he personally had 2.4 million people executed in 14 years? Sounds like Black Legend to me.

>>3353379
>What we committed in the Indies stands out amongst the most unpardonable offences ever committed against God and mankind and this trade [in Indian slaves] as one of the most unjust, evil and cruel among them


>What we committed

Seems like pretty clear language

>>3351857
that was the kharaji u tard

>>3348895
These are all weak and vague and none of them actually bad. Honestly this hating Ghandi thing seems to be motivated out of inherit pessimistic dislike for any saint-like figure.

>>3353394
I don't see the words "genocide" and "2.4 fucking millions" there. You are just trying to change the point. "Genocide" and "horrible shit" are not synonyms.

>>3350591
to be honest i'd worship Genghis khan like a god-king if i was Mongolian, he is the only thing they can be proud about

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>>3353354
He started off racist and was pro pan-Africanism and multiculturalism and minority revolutionary movements by the end. This was typical of his time.

"he peoples of Africa are compelled to endure the fact that on the African continent the superiority of one race over another remains official policy, and that in the name of this racial superiority murder is committed with impunity. Can the United Nations do nothing to stop this?" - Che Guevara

>>3352817
Not that I want to defend him, but I have a feeling he learned a lot of those were out of his control when getting into office. Deep state and all that.

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>>3353354
I'm sure this is the only reason you think Guevara is "based" and it isn't even a properly contextualized one, in terms of who he was by the end. But, you usually don't get properly contextualized leftist quotes from reactionaries.

Do you have a folder full of quotes like these that you strokes yourself to?

>>3348859
>>3348863
t. reddit

>>3353321
I know a teacher and she uses advice memes all around her room.

Everyone who don't agree with my taste and my opinion.

>>3348944
>war on drugs

Stoner detected.

>>3353138
Ok

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>>3353857
Hey relax, you seems easy to trigger, why don't you take sip of capitalism?

>>3348895
Not to mention a faggot LARPer

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>>3353321
what's wrong with it? it gets students intrigued in the material and actively want to participate. this is how learning works. yes, that is not at all how we used to do it but you, me, and everyone else in this thread knows how badly our younger generations are. this kind of teaching is the only thing that can keep the youth interested and off their cellphones. this kind of teaching could be the spark for those that will take our places in the future. don't grovel other this stuff.

>>3353315
He went down like a bitch though. And he failed in Congo and Bolivia. I don't think he was even that tough against people who weren't tied up to a tree.

>>3348927
Don't forget is scatological obsessions.

>>3349148
Thats why I come here everyday

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>>3348805

>>3351649
Napoleon is neither a good guy nor a villain. He is Napoleon. Anyone who tries to shoehorn him is a brainlet.

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>/his/tards will defend this ""man""

>>3349232
This, was gonna post that cunt.

>>3348895
That's cool and all, but what made him a bad guy?

>>3354902
Best monarch in European history prove me incorrect you cannot

>>3354928
Glasses.

>>3348895

>Said a lot of things
>Never used violence

>Considered a saintly symbol of peaceful resistance worldwide

Really makes you think..

>>3354902
Idiot he was just pretending to be retarded

>>3354976
the perfect alibi

>>3353275
Being a tyranyt =/= being genocidal.

>>3354902
but he was a good guy

>>3351589
>If we had the atom bomb we would have used it against Britain

Civ V speaking

>>3349877
>socialist
No he wasn't

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>>3353343
>a fucking LEIF

Kek you mother fucker.

>>3349206
Does anyone outside of edgy college students like him?

>>3349232
>>3351770
This. Churchill one of the 20th century's worst.

>>3354813
Yep.

>>3355284
He was

1.No person would be allowed to accumulate a personal net worth of more than 300 times the average family fortune, which would limit personal assets to between $5 million and $8 million. A graduated capital levy tax would be assessed on all persons with a net worth exceeding $1 million.

2.Annual incomes would be limited to $1 million and inheritances would be capped at $5.1 million.

3.Every family was to be furnished with a homestead allowance of not less than one-third the average family wealth of the country. Every family was to be guaranteed an annual family income of at least $2,000 to $2,500, or not less than one-third of the average annual family income in the United States. Yearly income, however, cannot exceed more than 300 times the size of the average family income.

4.An old-age pension would be made available for all persons over 60.

5.To balance agricultural production, the government would preserve/store surplus goods, abolishing the practice of destroying surplus food and other necessities due to lack of purchasing power.

6.Veterans would be paid what they were owed (a pension and healthcare benefits).

7.Free education and training for all students to have equal opportunities in all schools, colleges, universities, and other institutions for training in the professions and vocations of life.

8.The raising of revenue and taxes for the support of this program was to come from the reduction of swollen fortunes from the top, as well as for the support of public works to give employment whenever there may be any slackening necessary in private enterprise.

>>3351717
>Why do you think Trotsky is evil?
He was a war monger who constantly pushed for more aggressive actions. One of his criticisms of Stalin was that he didn't do more to intervene in the Chinese Civil War.

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>>3351717
Read Gulag archipelago you fucking commie

>>3354932
>>3354976
>>3355266
Typical /his/ arguments

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>>3353002
>I'm not an American for starters

>>3349206
>literally wanted to militarize labor, putting, I shit you not, 100% of the populace into work camps
It's crazy that he is considered good by anyone

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>>3348895
Well said.

If the starving little man considers himself saintly, why isn't he dead yet?

>>3353772
You're not really arguing anything but semantics. Columbus arrived, then caused great suffering and death precisely because he was an asshole. End of story.

>>3355360
>Does anyone outside of edgy college students like him?

Old university professors that still haven't accepted that USSR has collapsed.

>>3353544
>admitting to want to commit nuclear genocide
>damning his son to poverty and eventually death
>not that bad

What world do you live in?

>>3356263
None of that makes him a socialist tho

>>3356871
It doesn't make him a communist but he definitely was a socialist. What is your definition of socialism?

>>3348895

Dalits hate him, you can google it

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He counts.

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>btfo'd the Shah Of Iran in favor of the Islamic Republic cause "muh democracy"
>responsible for the Mujahideen (look where that went)
>recognized commie China
Should have just stayed on his peanut farm

>>3352811
>>3353002

I am an anticommunist and I think communist Vietnam did more good than evil. They ended the Cambodian genocide, stopped a Chinese invasion, and they have been growing at very high rates for many decades. They are also in some aspects moder free than modern China. Catholics dont have to practice their religion underground in Vietnam (China wants Catholics to go to the State Owned Catholic Patriotic Association Church)


>>3353316
there is no way to know what the population of The Hispaniola was before 1492
The fact that Portugal only 1.2 million people, and Spain had only 7 million people at that time (5.5 from Castille, the colonizers) should severely make you doubt Hispaniola had 3 million people.

>>3356263
He was a populist socdem, nothing more

>>3351604
BLONALD KKKLUMPFFFF

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>>3351738

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Also all other socialist/communists.

>>3356263
Literally none of them says or hints at 'workers owning the means of production'

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>>3356985
populist SOCIALIST democrat

>>3348805
>>3348895
>>3349132
>>3349137
>>3349206
>>3349877
>>3350591
>>3351651
>>3351787
>>3351807
>>3352817
>>3353070
>>3353354
>>3353984
>>3354777
>>3354813
>>3356963
>>3357028
/thread

>>3357045
call it market socialism, democratic socialism or whatever, it's still socialism.

P.S. I love Huey but i can see for what he is.

>>3348944
>Reaganomics
>failure
Yeah because we totally didn't see massive growth in the 80s.

Muhammad

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>>3357081
Forgot pic

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Not so much a true "bad guy" like many others, but this guy was a dumbass towards the end of his career.

>>3351651
I have seen pictures of this guy in offices, refrigerator magnets, and living rooms. And numbers wise it would be less offensive to have a picture of Hitler in your house.

>>3357237
>And numbers wise it would be less offensive to have a picture of Hitler in your house.
Most of those deaths were caused by incompetence though

>>3357253
So were Hitler's.

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>>3357253
more like malicious incompetence.

>>3357263
You can't even come close to the proportion of people mao got killed through incompetence.

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>>3354976

>>3354902
His reign wasn't a bad one.

>>3357326
Thats Idi Amin, right? Does anyone actually consider him a good guy?

>>3353346

Sure, but don't also be the person that shouts 'white genocide' at shit if you are going to be saying that.

But yeah, a lot of terms can be pretty flexible, despite autistic rants that some people give to the contrary.

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>>3353354
>European has the tradition of work and saving.

Super ironic coming from a man with Spanish blood.

>>3356714
>admitting to want to commit nuclear genocide
Point out exactly where and in what context he said that.
>"Oh, on that point you can proclaim to the whole world without hesitation," exclaimed Gandhi, "that I am beyond repair. I regard the employment of the atom bomb for the wholesale destruction of men, women and children as the most diabolical use of science."
http://www.mkgandhi-sarvodaya.org/articles/On%20Nuclear%20Arms.htm

>damning his son to poverty and eventually death
That's a strong word, especially considering the motivations. Not everyone believes materialism is objectively correct.

>>3356942
nobody defends this guy.

>>3357070
Being against free market capitalism and being pro-distributism still isn't exclusive to socialism

>>3351784
>>3351771
>>3351777
Is Brazil posting a thing now?

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>>3357092
This.

Nazi cunt ruined Argentina.

>>3348859
Rex tillerson?

>>3351604
>considered good guys by the populace

Get off 4chan mate

>>3348895
Every single thing you mentioned, if true, only shows what a great man he was.

>>3357047
Populist SOCIAL Democrat.

Kill yourself faggot.

>>3356967
I doubt it was 3 million, but let's be real, Europe population was still recovering from the Black Death and the subsequent plague outbreaks.
The savages never really knew about total demographic collapse like that occurred in Europe or Asia.
So them having more than Portugal is okay with me.

>>3356639
Too bad that the "semantics" here are important. "Genocide" means a specific thing, and you misused that word while putting a ridicously high death toll on him.

>>3348859
T. Chinese

>>3352817
True but he pales in comparison to the other dudes in this thread

Can someone give me a rundown on why Churchill was so bad?

>>3357237
Hitler didn't double life expectancy and triple literacy rates.

>>3348895
>be me
>Tfw you poo IN the loo
>Tfw your university has a statue of pic related on campus

>>3358346
Penicillin doubled life expectancy, not Mao.

>>3352478
>>3354923
>>3355360
Churchill was good though.

>>3354777
>leftist

>>3351784
>Maria """"""Bonita"""""""

>>3356963
>deregulates oil prices. leading to a huge increase in oil production and lower oil prices. soviet union collapses in the 80s because of this. meanwhile the the USA enjoys 2 decades of prosperity.
>appoints vlocker. who reals in the economy and prevents an economic bust until the late 90s.
>warned us that something like the 2008 housing bubble could happen.
>wanted the USA to be energy independent.

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Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

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>>3348805

>>3357806
Romanian nationalists will.
He tried to something big for his "country" which was nothing more than an Ottoman puppet state before he fought against them.

>>3351604
TWENTY
FIVE
YEARS

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>literal subhumans split into multiple factions who engage in petty squabbles amongst each other
>Spartans literally called the unified Persian state (the very same Persia which outlawed slavery thousands of years ahead of everyone else) effeminate due to them being so civilized
>one of these "city" "states" let it's citizens vote, which shouldn't even matter considering how shitty their lives were
>macedonian chad comes in and conquers persia, so autistic that he keeps going to the point of exhaustion instead of focusing on what he has
>we wuz alexander

>>3353316
i'm as anti-Columbus as the next guy but
>Howard Zinn

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>>3349148

>>3359166
Mehmet...my son

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>>3348805
>Historical bad guys that are considered good guys by the populace no matter the overwhelming evidence proving the contrary.

Moses, obviously. It's hard enough to make people understand God is real and it's really, for example, against the law to murder people or commit treason against a Divine Emperor on planet Earth, without his shitpost definition of God making it near impossible to make clear God is real.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QageVk0vAQ

>>3348895
>"If we had the atom bomb we would have used it against Britain"
BASED

>>3359166
Dmitri, you are Bulgarian, not Macedonian.

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He was a soviet agent known as 'Bolek'
There is evidence but many people refuse to believe it

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this cunt

>>3348805

Because he's handsome. It's literally that fucking retarded.

Stupid males use him as a totem so that his "attractiveness" is correlated with him. Females only care about superficial explanations that give them easy mental dominance over the world. Or at least the appearance and posturing of dominance. So they'll listen to this dude's bullshit and think it sounds wonderful. They can't fuck the totem but they can fuck the guy wearing the totem...

Society is that retarded.

>>3350591
>Live in a period where everyone fucking sucks
>Live in the middle of grass
>Genghis over there gets mad because of girl or something
>conquers/destroy half of the civilized world
>The world will never be the same

Pretty badass to me

rapist and killer and all, but in those times which leaders were not? he basically take it to the industrial level

>>3348859
Fuck off, reddit

>>3357696
>That's a strong word, especially considering the motivations. Not everyone believes materialism is objectively correct.
Fucking kek, it's evil

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This fucking guy.

>>3348805
Which says a lot about Hitler since Germany made it a law against calling him a good guy.

>>3348927
that was Einstein

>>3348927
that was Einstein

>>3357326
What the fuck

>>3348863
I think you're confusing him wit Cortez.

>>3362976
>nelson mandela

I never understood how a terrorist jailed for 30 years for attempting to bomb civilians is no regarded as a saint because he did his time...It's as if he had a choice in the matter! By that rationale, the guy that drove into people in Charlottesville will, in 30 years, win the Nobel Prize.

>in b4 "Well he SHOULD!"

Yeah but you know what I mean.

>>3357079
followed by crashes in 87 and the early 90s and a decline in overall standard of living. it made the poor poorer and destroyed communities

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>>3356906
Abolishing private property, money, the state, wage-labour, and commodity production.

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>>3348933
>t. "conservative"

>>3351807
Justin?

>>3349148
Sting's Russian Tour had more to do with the collapse than Raygun.

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>>3364716
>Abolishing private property, money, the state, wage-labour, and commodity production.

Is not that communism?

>>3351765
Far more war crimes were committed by the White Armies during Lenin's period of control. Don't forget he had a stroke that took him out of play for quite a while.

>>3362976
White South African here. You're retarded. Yes he was a literal terrorist for a while, but 25 years later he negotiated the best possible transition of power that could have happened. It was only a matter of time, not because the independence movements could hold a candle to the SADF militarily (they couldn't), but because the state could not survive under the weight of the sanctions and civil unrest it was facing. Power transition was almost entirely peaceful, and it really didn't look like it was going to be. However the guys after him really fucked things up, and Zuma is continuing to fuck things up.

>>3363857
See >>3364802
It's not about his character specifically (although to a lot of the plebs it is), it's about the fact that he happened to have the right attitude at the right time, and the smarts to follow through the best possible course of action when the possibility of an all out civil war and popular uprising was hanging in the air. He's literally prevented a long period of massive unrest and strife. That's why he gets the peace prize, not because of "oh look how much he's changed!"

>>3364783
They're the same thing. Lenin and Bordiga disagreed with Marx on that however

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>>3364824
Then what is the stage between capitalism and communist/socialism?

>>3364882
Proletarian dictatorship, Capital is still the dominant mode of production, but the working class holds political power and is in the process of self negation.

>>3364888
>Proletarian dictatorship
Like the USSR or mao's China (aka state capitalism)? also I dont fully understand how a proletarian dictatorship can be both democratic and dictatorial according marx.

>>3364910
No, the so called socialist states were capitalist as you pointed out, although I think it's very worthwhile looking into how the Russian revolution collapsed externally (the failed insurrections during revolutionary wave in Germany and Italy) and internally. The various arguments that it was a proletarian dictatorship past 1921 are pretty weak. The Chinese revolution was almost entirely peasant based and couldn't amount to anything more than industrialisation under capitalist social relations. (See http://insurgentnotes.com/2014/06/the-agrarian-question-in-the-russian-revolution-from-material-community-to-productivism-and-back/)

As for the 'democratic' character of the DoTP, I think Marx changed his mind after the 1871 Paris Commune and realised it could be nothing other than dictatorial. I'd recommend reading Bordiga's The Democratic Principle and Camatte's Democratic Mystification.

>>3352817
>>3351604
25 year limit. Fuck off

>>3357054
Everybody hates her though. You should see the stuff Rushdie had to say about her.

>>3348895
>pedo
>disdain for perfidious albion
>wanted to see the victory of the indo-aryan above all else
/ourguy/

>>3364957

If the socialists states degenerated into capitalism, is that not an indictment against them?
The fact that 'socialism has never been tried', despite some of the most competent political actors of the 20th century trying extremely hard to try it, often so that they died, should not encourage confidence.