Which one of these is legit

>>3324192
Both and neither.

>>3324196
this is the informative answer that I expect from /his/

thank you

>muh Stalin was the second messiah and would never harm a fly

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>>3324192
>grover furr
>furr
me, a furry revisionist: *glomps u* the holodomurr was greatly exaggerated! X3
*rolls over and stretches out tummy 4 petting*Beria was just popular with the ladies~
*notices Katyn mass graves* 0w0 what's this?

>>3324192
Is the left one real?
If so I'm glad that at the very least that Furr guy has no chance of reaching the readers just like Snyder (who I admire for bringing the truth about WWII closer to the western people even though lately he started saying some bullshit).

I agree with Snyder, Stalin's death count was greatly exaggerated during the Cold War and Hitler probably killed more.

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>>3324264
Yes it's real, he's a Medieval English lit professor at Montclair University

>>3324192
I only read Bloodlands. Informative but his depiction of Nazis is comically exaggerated. It was like reading an old wives tale about monsters.

>>3324192
>"Polish Operation"
>"Great Terror"
>"Soviet Invasion of Poland"
>"Katyn Massacre"
>"Stalin's Anti-Semitisim"

Motherfucker loves his quotation marks, doesn't he?

>>3324273
During WWII Hitler killed more than Stalin but overall Stalin killed more. He had twice the time Hitler had. Of course it's impossible to establish a concrete number but the same goes for civilian casualties killed by Germany.

>>3324287
I don't agree, Stalin's figures have been greatly revised downwards now we have better access to Soviet records. While the winner at the end of the day depends on which killings you attribute to whom but it certainly appears at this point Hitler had the overall higher death count.

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If the "Great Terror" wasn't justified, why did the accused all confess? checkmate liberals

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>>3324278
Jesus he reminds some of the authors from the /pol/ recommended reading chart.
I swear by the title alone you can tell it's some unreadable garbage. I imagine the writing process looked somewhat like this.

>>3324280
The Nazis were monsters.

>>3324287
>He had twice the time Hitler had
Stalin's regime was less deadly. Pretty much all Hitler's victims came from 1939-1945. For Stalin the most deadly years were obviously 1932/1933, 1937/1938 and 1941-1945. From what I've read at least half of Gulag victims died during the war.

Here is Furr in action

https://youtu.be/hRPTZF5zSLQ

>>3324298
Some of the most important documents are protected and unavailable. The extent of the Polish Operation alone was unknown until very recently (discovered by accident during Yeltsin's presidency and only now there are some professional studies about the subject). I expect this to go up if anything.

>>3324314
I'd hardly call a regime that targeted entire nationalities, social groups and random people and was ready to wage a war of communist revolution less deadly compared to anything.
Did Snyder really claim that Stalin was lesser evil?

>>3324298
I hate the Soviets, but it seems to be true. The 60 million victims of Soviet repressions is a fairy tale. Even 20 million seems to be too much. I think my own country is a good example.

We went from 1-2 million Poles deported by the Soviets to "at least 360.000" deported by Soviets (it's the number that appears in Soviet documents).

>>3324322
The Yeltsin presidency was hardly recent. In fact that is when we started getting access to the records and when the figures started going down.

>>3324322
>go up
Cold War numbers were made up. They were based on memoirs (and people tend to exaggerate), not on documents.

>>3324325
Here's an article representing his thinking on the subject.

>>3324334
Many archives are still closed. I think Putin closed them down again, but I may be wrong.

>>3324332
I'd say Stalin killed more because of collectivisation alone. Snyder's final assessment is that Stalin is responsible for around 15 million versus Hitler's 12. How many did Hitler kill? Because people tend to ""blame" him for military casualties too. Do we blame him for strategic bombing? If yes then shouldn't we blame Stalin for attrocities commited on the occupied lands commited by the NKVD in his name etc. etc. I don't like talking about numbers like that. I'm gonna agree with Suvorov on that. The biggest difference between Hitler and Stalin was the moustache.

>>3324325
>targeted entire nationalities
This is the most interesting part. It really makes Stalin not so different from Hitler. All these anti-Polish, anti-German, anti-X operations during the purge were simply put genocides.

>>3324319
How the hell is he a "liberal" ?

Am I the only one to think that some of Snyder's stuff is a bit too silly?

>the part where they slice a kid's leg off and eat it, and he eats it as well
>the part where the villagers dig their graves then fall into them

Just seems like some fairy tales

>>3324367
He thought those were "foreign elements". Basically fifth columns. Despite preaching international socialism he couldn't escape Russian supremacism despite not being Russian himself. This is the main difference between him and Lenin who was basicallt a follower of the principle of the 19th century International.

>>3324365
>Do we blame him for strategic bombing?
Hitler is responsible for 12-14 million deaths, those are only people deliberately killed by the Nazis, it doesn't include people killed during military operations, so no.

>If yes then shouldn't we blame Stalin for attrocities commited on the occupied lands commited by the NKVD in his name etc.
We already count them.

>The biggest difference between Hitler and Stalin was the moustache
No. They were different, their goals were different, their victims were different and their killing methods were different.

>>3324384
Well they both wanted to spread their influence but in different directions. Both geographical and ideological (national and international socialism). Most of their victims had something in common: members of the elite of the conquered countries, Jews, political prisoners.
Methods of killing were mostly different. Nazis were quicker, communists usually gave their victims slow agonizing death or shot them in the back of the head but on the other hand Gestapo too a lot of inspiration from NKVD.

>>3324365
>Stalin is responsible for around 15 million
Wasn't it like 9 or 10 million? I think in that one article he mentioned this number.

>>3324314
They were human beings and their army was one of the most disciplined in the world.

>>3324368
It was this debate
http://www.yaliberty.org/events/2012-10-10/montclair-state-university-campus-debate

I have no idea why he decided to represent the liberal pov though. Surely there were other professors at Montclair who aren't as toxic as he is.

>>3324399
>All in all, the Germans deliberately killed about 11 million noncombatants, a figure that rises to more than 12 million if foreseeable deaths from deportation, hunger, and sentences in concentration camps are included. For the Soviets during the Stalin period, the analogous figures are approximately six million and nine million.

Six delibeare, nine in labor camps.

>>3324396
Germans wanted to exterminate or enslave other nations and take their place.
>members of the elite of the conquered countries, Jews, political prisoners.
Most Stalin's victims died from starvation or in gulags, most Nazi victims were murdered, but a lot were also deliberately starved (Soviet POWs).

>communists usually gave their victims slow agonizing death
For example? Their deaths wasn't communists goal. Gulags were labor camps, not death camps.

>>3324404
>their army was one of the most disciplined in the world
That's a myth. And human beings can be monsters.

>>3324412
I'm sure YAL asked him first and were delighted when he accepted, because he fits their stereotype of liberals perfectly.

>>3324415
SIx deliberate and three in camps, overall nine million.

>>3324192
I'm just happy that Stalinism denial is less popular than Holocaust denial. We don't want even more retarded tankies here.

>>3324418
Gulags (gulag is a name of the camp administration but ok) were just that. At least one of them had the Soviet version of "arbeit mach frei" above its gate. Undesriable people (and that could be whoever) was sent to that place to make some use of them even if it meant working them to death.

>>3324425
No, he took the number from Conquest's "The Great Terror"

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>>3324192
Stalin didn't kill anyone but hypothetically if he did they deserved it

>>3324455
That's some shit from bizzaro /pol/ but just as bad and poorly researched.

>>3324443
He disagrees with Conquest.

Nazis: 11 million deliberately killed -> more than 12 if we include deportation, hunger and concentration camps

Stalin: 6 million killed -> 9 million if we include deportation, hunger and concentration camps

>>3324432
Gulags were labot camps with high mortality rate (depending of the camp). Death camps (Birkenau, Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, Lublin (Majdanek) and Chelmno (Kulmhof)) were established to murder people.

>According to Polish historian Czeslaw Pilichowski, director of Poland's "Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes," of the 120,000 people (Jews and non-Jews) who were ever interned in Stutthof or its satellite camps, 85,000 died. (32). Polish historian Krzysztof Dunin-Wasowicz has estimated that of the camp's 120,000 inmates, "about 80,000 of them either died or were murdered." (33). Another Polish historian gives a "conservative" estimate of 65,000 Stutthof victims. (34)
But Stutthof was not a death camp, even if most of its inmates died.

>a simple notion that nazism and communism, and by extension Nazi Germany and Soviet Union, were just as bad is controversial in some countries

lel

>>3324500
Though Stalin still killed more people. Not as many as Mao though. Why isn't he seen as the worst person ever? Is it because everybody agrees that China has such a population that it's not hard to kill millions there?

>>3324479
Question-is Conquest a reliable source for Soviet atrocities?

Can you inform me of any other historians who document life in the USSR?

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This guy sounds like a butthurt teenage Tankie who thinks Stalin was the second Jesus

I'll believe the one written by a goy.

>>3324519
http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/

Here is a discussion between historians supporting lower and higher numbers of Stalin's death. Later it basically turned into a debate between Conquest and Wheatcroft.

>>3324546
Jesus wait until it will turn out that Hitler's death toll was lower than expected. People love thier numbers.

>>3324546
http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/GTY-Penal_System.pdf

But this is the most important paper that started the discussion.

>>3324526
Well communism is literally the single worst ideology in human history. I'm not suprised it has so many followers. People are attracted to great things even if they are terrifying.

>>3324559
It's unlikely that this will happen. Hitler's death toll is better researched.

I never enjoyed number wars between German/Soviet apologists but if we count Soviet famines that gives us around 6-8 million victims alone. So that's without even counting gulags, collectivisation, great purge including anti-national operations and attrocities commited on occupied lands. There's a reason why he's number two behind Mao.
Most of that during peace time. Why isn't this talked about more?