>hurr communism is actually good, we just need to do it right

I'm sorry, are you trying to make a point or just having a conniption

>>3302388
Never understood why it was taught in schools as being not-socialist, and a good analysis of the Russian Revolution.

>>3302384
>Those child molesting clergymen dindu nuffin

>>3302397
Just because his politics dont a agree with yours (his wouldn't agree with most, even during his lifetime other leftists hated him) doesnt mean he didnt produce some great work.

Whether or not you agree with is analysis of the soviet revolution, he lays out how most revolutions contain the seeds of their own destruction

>>3302407
>child molesting
That's not even remotely why the Commies murdered nuns and you know it

>>3302415
Animal Farm slobbered all over Lenin's dick and it's taught in schools as a good allegory.

>>3302428
It isnt really clear whether the old pig represents Marx or Lenin.

In any case Just because you dont like the politics behind it does not mean it isnt worth teaching

>>3302384
Well the book made Lenin (Napoleon the pig) a well meaning visionary whose legacy was betrayed by his successor. Of course it wasn't the case in history.
But Orwell was someone who was getting more and more disappointed with socialism. This included his time in Spain. I've never read Homage to Catalonia but I heard it's not really about whitewashing the commies.
In 1984 the oppressive ideology is named English Socialism. By that time I think Orwell simply hated everything. He died soon after writing it. If he lived a little longer it would've been more clear.

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>>3302384
>Don't true anarchism*

>>3302439
Oh it can be a good read as long as you have a unbiased analysis with full knowledge of the actual events, and the position of the author and all that jazz, as can any book.
But it's TAUGHT as a "good" position in school, with "good guys" and "bad guys".

>>3302454
> as can any book.

I guess subjectively but in my opinion Orwell, was in the technical scene a brilliant writer.

>But it's TAUGHT as a "good" position in school, with "good guys" and "bad guys".

Bad teaching can be a problem, Ive read reviews calling it an anti-communist screed, so the themes tend to go above the head of some.

>>3302450
Napoleon represents Stalin and is portrayed as nothing but a corrupt manipulator obsessed with his own power

>>3302384
>its not capitalism, its crony capitalism, or CRAPitalism as I like to call it
>in a real free market capitalist system this wouldnt happen

Don't act other ideologies aren't using this excuse.

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>>3302477
>Don't act other ideologies aren't using this excuse.
But I'm not

>>3302472
Ok I meant Major. He's supposed to be a more positive character. One good thing about Lenin is that he died early.

>>3302465
Could be a matter of teaching. It was taught as essentially a "socialism good communism bad" novel in TEXAS of all places.
It was taught to us kids just as it was intended by the author, a giant piece of apologism.
This was not an unbiased and secular teaching.

>>3302501
Orwell was a social democrat. And by the end of his life who the hell knows.

>>3302513
You think he died with a black pill stuck in his throat?

>>3302513
Orwell was a left-libertarian.
>>3302384
>fascist bootlicker from /pol/ triggered by Animal Farm
Color me surprised.

>>3302518
He's a mystery to me. When people say he was socialist they think of modern common definition. Today he would be centre left social democrat. Which would still make him a proponent of strong controlling government, Not what people have in mind when they think of Orwell.

Here's your >>3302384

>>3302529
Agorist perhaps?

>>3302384
kys nationalist retard

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>>3302539
you bastard, you know full well the OP doesn't give a (you)

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>>3302529
>filthy communist defends a Russian Revolution apologist

>>3302551
neck yourself bolshevik

>>3302450
>I've never read Homage to Catalonia
Do it. It's the ultimate anti commie pill. Once you're done you are wishing for helicopters.

>>3302580
i think I will (not the anon you replied to btw), what's the general summary?

>>3302452
If you actually read Homage to Catalonia you would realize that the CNT got fucked by the commies by almost comical portions. They even gave them 30 year old rifles from the 19th century because the commies didn't want the anarchos to be capable.

>>3302585
Commies are scum, Spaniards are bros and the left wing press has always been full of shit. It ends with Orwell along with wife and friends fleeing the country because they are being denounced as "fascists" by the commies.

>One of the dreariest effects of this war has been to teach me that the Left-wing press is every bit as spurious and dishonest as that of the Right.I do earnestly feel that on our side--the Government side--this war was different from ordinary, imperialistic wars; but from the nature of the war-propaganda you would never have guessed it. The fighting had barely started when the newspapers of the Right and Left dived simultaneously into the same cesspool of abuse. We all remember the _Daily Mail's_ poster: 'REDS CRUCIFY NUNS', while to the _Daily Worker_ Franco's Foreign Legion was 'composed of murderers, white-slavers, dope-fiends, and the offal of every European country'. As late as October 1937 the _New Statesman_ was treating us to tales of Fascist barricades made of the bodies of living children (a most unhandy thing to make barricades
with), and Mr Arthur Bryant was declaring that 'the sawing-off of a Conservative tradesman's legs' was 'a commonplace' in Loyalist Spain. The people who write that kind of stuff never fight; possibly they
believe that to write it is a substitute for fighting. It is the same in all wars; the soldiers do the fighting, the journalists do the shouting, and no true patriot ever gets near a front-line trench, except on the briefest of propaganda-tours. Sometimes it is a comfort to me to think that the aeroplane is altering the conditions of war. Perhaps when the next great war comes we may see that sight unprecedented in all history, a jingo with a bullet-hole in him.

>>3302501
>Could be a matter of teaching. It was taught as essentially a "socialism good communism bad" novel in TEXAS of all places.
I think the kind of socialism the book is apologetic for is not antitethical to communism, considering Orwell fought in a marxist militia and later went on to claim he would have rather joined the anarchists.

>>3302643
Orwell didn't know anything about economy but he was anti-authoritarian and he cligned to the people who he believed represented his worldview the most.

>>3302538
>Today he would be centre left social democrat.
How do you conclude that?

>>3302384

>Not a single proof

>>3302659
>not against the state
>not in favor of revolution
>critical of both fascism and communism
>somewhat of a social conservative

>>3302538
Bitch please, he would shit on milquetoast socdems and be a trade unionists ala TUSC

>>3302672
Marxists aren't against the state either (in fact the withering away of the state never happened) so I don't see how that makes him centre-left. Besides, he fought in a marxist militia and he even said that he would have rather joined the anarchists. And I don't think he criticized communism, rather what he naively thought was a distorted version of it as opposed to muh real communism considering the aforementioned. Regarding him being somewhat of a social conservative, I don't think that makes him center-left, look at North Korea.

>>3302659
He said he was democratic socialist. Basically soc-dems who appeared after Bernstein's reforms of marxism.

>>3302692
>Besides, he fought in a marxist militia
>t. someone who didn't read catalonia

The revolutionary atmosphere of Barcelona had
attracted me deeply, but I had made no attempt to understand it. As for
the kaleidoscope of political parties and trade unions, with their
tiresome names--P.S.U.C., P.O.U.M., F.A.I., C.N.T., U.G.T., J.C.I.,
J.S.U., A.I.T.--they merely exasperated me. It looked at first sight as
though Spain were suffering from a plague of initials. I knew that I was
serving in something called the P.O.U.M. (I had only joined the P.O.U.M.
militia rather than any other because I happened to arrive in Barcelona
with I.L.P. papers), but I did not realize that there were serious
differences between the political parties. At Monte Pocero, when they
pointed to the position on our left and said: 'Those are the Socialists'
(meaning the P.S.U.C.), I was puzzled and said: 'Aren't we all
Socialists?' I thought it idiotic that people fighting for their lives
should _have_ separate parties; my attitude always was, 'Why can't we
drop all this political nonsense and get on with the war?'

>(I had only joined the P.O.U.M. militia rather than any other because I happened to arrive in Barcelona with I.L.P. papers), but I did not realize that there were serious differences between the political parties.
>(I had only joined the P.O.U.M. militia rather than any other because I happened to arrive in Barcelona with I.L.P. papers), but I did not realize that there were serious differences between the political parties.
>(I had only joined the P.O.U.M. militia rather than any other because I happened to arrive in Barcelona with I.L.P. papers), but I did not realize that there were serious differences between the political parties.

I'm no Spanish (maybe one could correct me if I'm wrong) but the Spanish Civil War was basically a continuation of the same war between monarchists and republicans from late 19th century but with some radical shitheads on both sides.

>>3302708
Uh, that text literally says he thought they were all socialists?

>>3302708
Not that guy but how does this text go against what he said? Orwell is basically another idealist entering a vastly complex political war

>>3302717

The Spanish Civil War was a failed pronunciamiento.

>>3302728
He would probably initially support the Cuban revolution not knowing what they were doing (or that the favorite country of revolutionary champion Che was North Korea).

>>3302740
I don't see how that is relevant to the discussion of whether Orwell didn't fought for the socialists in Spain

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>>3302724
Orwell was a socialist, but in today's world he would probably be right of Bernie. Do you have any idea how poor people were 100 years ago? As much as I love la belle epoque, I have to admit that I would have been fucked had I lived there.

>>3302728
That's what I am saying. This is young Orwell before he got fucked by commies. He was an naive idealist, not some bloodthirsty communist revolutionary. There is almost a 10 year difference between the Orwell who fought in Spain and the Orwell who wrote 1984 and Animal Farm. The events of the Spanish civil war are the foundation of his thinking he lays out in these books. Orwell is like a teenager today idealizing socialism and making excuses for communism before realizing what terror it brings and then becoming one of its greatest detractors. Remember, Orwell didn't have Cambodia and the USSR to look at as a negative example yet. It was the fucking 1930s and news travel slowly.

>>3302746
Ohhhh so this is entirely based on your conjecture of his personality. I mean it is fine to psychoanalyze Orwell but quoting random text doesn't give your argument credibility.

Plus he wrote back to his editor when everyone was thinking 1984 was about socialism to reinforce that it was about authoritarianism. If he was genuinely anti-socialist by then, why go through the effort?

>>3302603
Happened again just the other week in south Sudan.

>>3302672
>not against the state
Ok, sure, i'll concede that
>not in favour of revolution
He advocated heavily for revolutionary socialism in Homeage to Catalonia, condemning the government for being so non revolutionary that the people in Morroco felt better under franco.
>>critical of both fascism and communism
Seems more a critic of authoritarianism in general, and judging by his writings he spesifically loathed fascism because it wasn't even pretending to be a transitionary phase for a greater good.
>>somewhat of a social conservative
If Orwell's a social conservative then i'm the fucking pope, he called for the detonation of a church because it looked shit.

>>3302758
>Ohhhh so this is entirely based on your conjecture of his personality.
After reading three books written by him back to back, I'll take that leap. Which books written by Orwell did you read?

>>3302758
He was less "anti socialist", but more along the lines of "the people who are pretending to fight for your rights are going to eat you alive in the name of progress and justice, all for the sake of personal power and ideology." Which is why communism is trash to begin with. (Ignoring the obvious economic fuckups, but that's a given)

>>3302779
Near the end of his life he described himself as democratic socialist. Still shit-tier but he believed it was the closest to his own anti-imperialist beliefs.

>>3302746
>levels of relative poverty have fallen
What the fuck are you talking about, relative poverty is already a subjective as fuck measurement, and there are very clearly cabals of hyper wealthy individuals who have lives far, faaar better than any man here could even dream of, show me the definition of "relative poverty" they're using.

>>3302787
But he definitely hated communism and was disappointed socialist press was whitewashing the USSR.

>>3302787
>Still shit-tier
Still nowhere near being a social cohnservative, using democratic means to achieve socialism is the kind of legitimacy that socialism needs to work properly.

>>3302779
>If Orwell's a social conservative then i'm the fucking pope,
By today standards Orwell would be a racist sexist homohobe misogynist.

>As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for Socialism is its adherents. [...] n addition to this there is the horrible — the really disquieting — prevalence of cranks wherever Socialists are gathered together. One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words "Socialism" and "Communism" draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, "Nature Cure" quack, pacifist, and feminist in England.

Literally the kind of person who would post here to bitch about SJWs.

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>>3302783
>I'll take that leap.
>Making conjecture of the author based on your perception of his text

>Which books written by Orwell did you read?
I read about his life nigga.

>Which is why communism is trash to begin with.
I mean, if that is your takeaway from 1984 or Animal Farm then that is great, but let's not pretend that it is what Orwell wanted to say.

And you still haven't answered me, if Orwell turned away from the ideology of socialism, why would he write back to dismiss any claims it was about socialism

>>3302795
>By today standards Orwell would be a racist sexist homohobe misogynist.
>social attitudes have changed over a near century
Woah.
Orwell wasn't bitching about the conduct of those people, he was railing against how they made the movement looked, in the same way a priest might try to reign in a follower whose zealotry drives people away from the faith.

>>3302805
>I read about his life nigga.
Which books? A Wikipedia summery doesn't count.

>And you still haven't answered me, if Orwell turned away from the ideology of socialism, why would he write back to dismiss any claims it was about socialism
No idea, can't look inside the mans head. I suppose he hated socialists but still idealized what he thought socialism could or rather should be. Kind of like a center left progressive today who wants to hang SJWs without going full ancap or 1488 and staying somewhat true to his initial principals despite everything.

>>3302809
Fair point, but why is Orwell's apologism for socialism bad if he lampoons everything wrong with it?

>>3302795
>it is another leftist shitting on other leftists
Goddamn if one person becomes class conscious every time one leftist denounced others for being naive/wrong/tyrannical/ etc etc since the First Internationale , there would be revolution by tomorrow. Just coz Orwell is carrying on the 'proud' tradition of a sectarian left doesn't mean he isn't a leftist

Besides that text is clearly about him ranting about virtue signalling milquetoast liberals of the time. Which makes me laugh at the suggestion above that he would be some Fabian socialists when he would probably be a working class trade unionist if he was alive today

>>3302384
Orwell was a cunt to the core.
>Anglos are the greatest race on the planet and South Asians are shitskin animals but racism is a horrible thing, fuck those Krauts
>how DARES Tolstoy criticize Shakespeare, Tolstoy is a nobody, I'm literally shaking because he said something bad about my sacred Anglo meme writer
>Stalinism is evil but Lenin and Trotsky were good guys and should've been given a chance, real communism has never been tried
>let me describe in detail how anarchist Catalonia was a disorganized shithole where nothing functioned properly but make no mistake I still like it because people called each other comrade
>let me constantly kvetch how we're losing my precious romanticized nostalgic idyllic Arcadian rural England but I'm actually a socialist progressive xD
>I had to shoot an elephant in Burma and it gave me PTSD
More people should read his essays to find out what an insufferable faggot he was.

>>3302822
>Just coz Orwell is carrying on the 'proud' tradition of a sectarian left doesn't mean he isn't a leftist
I never said Orwell wasn't a leftist or a socialist, but that he did a great job at pointing out whats wrong with communism and socialism in the first place.

>>3302827
>>Stalinism is evil but Lenin and Trotsky were good guys and should've been given a chance, real communism has never been tried
Excusable position in 1940. In 1970, not so much. He was a slave of his time, just like everyone else is.

>>3302818
>Which books? A Wikipedia summery doesn't count.
>Making conjecture of the author based on your perception of his text

>No idea, can't look inside the mans head.
Then don't make baseless conjecture on what he would or not would do dumbass. Your conjecture seems less about who Orwell really was or more about what you wanted him to be (and the state of the Left)

>>3302384
Honestly, i would be a socialist, had i not studied economics.
Socialists have good intentions, but they cling to a dusty tome. As my professor once said, left leaning economists are stuck between volume 2 and volume 3 of Das Kapital. He told us of it, he told us he had to memorize it word for word for a course, being born in a communist country. They are either blind or misguided.
I finally understood Thatcher, her quote, "They'd rather have the poor poorer, provided the rich were less rich."
What the left has left is psychoanalytical and philosophical jerking off (sniffs and tugs shirt), they have no real economic argument.

>>3302835
Probably mislead by Days that Shook the World.

>>3302818
>Fair point, but why is Orwell's apologism for socialism bad if he lampoons everything wrong with it?
I didn't say that, i'm arguing against the idea that Orwell was a social conservative, which he almost certainly wasn't, Orwell repeatedly writes about equality, and how important that socialism brings about both social and economic equality, he advocated explicitly for revolution, and a pushback against the leading socially conservative views at that time, fascism, and actively fought to achieve this end, he was explicitly anti-imperialist, in a country where the continued maintenence of the empire was (pre-war) a given.

>>3302831
>pointing out whats wrong with communism and socialism in the first place.
And again you can't take that as anything special since leftists already do this all the time.

>>3302844
My point exactly. He was born in 1903. Can't imagine what it must be like to see the world go to shit in just 3 decades.

>>3302846
At the same time he was a rabid Anglo nationalist with outright reactionary sentiments, read Coming up for air.

>>3302851
>And again you can't take that as anything special since leftists already do this all the time.
Not anymore they don't. The SJW left is neo-bolshevik. They've just replace the bourgeoisie with straight white men and the working class with black transwomen.

>>3302856
And? Having some rightwing non orthodox views in addition to left wing non orthodox views doesn't make you a social conservative.

>>3302858
Identity politics is not the same than class struggle

>>3302846
>i'm arguing against the idea that Orwell was a social conservative, which he almost certainly wasn't,
I am talking by today standers. If we brought Orwell from 1940 into the present day he would be on our side, against cultural destruction, revisionism, hedonism, trans children and identity politics.

>>3302865
Oh but it is. Class struggle is more legitimate than race struggle, I guess, but its the same playbook. Exactly the same.

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>>3302858
Oh so you want to complain about the New Left? Sure identity politics has replaced class struggle for multiple centrist liberals for the past few decades, but that don't mean the flame of the Old Left isn't coming back.

And no, SJW and neoliberals are not leftists. One only needs to read the Guardian shit on pic related since him being Leader to know the difference between identity political liberals and class conscious leftists

>>3302873
t. leftypol
True leftists are a minority. The left has been completely undermined with identity bullshit and you know it.

>>3302869
>I am talking by today standers. If we brought Orwell from 1940 into the present day he would be on our side, against cultural destruction, revisionism, hedonism, trans children and identity politics.
And there's the fucking rub, you don't care about the actual intellectual interests of this person, you only care that he's on your side, that you have someone you can claim was in agreement with you to make your ideology looks better.

Orwell was a socialist, you clearly are not, he wouldn't agree with you.

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>>3302874
>red baiting this hard
>in a thread about an actual socialist
Of course the remnants of the New Left is still around but let's not pretend the surge Corbyn and Melenchon (and Bernie I guess?) has experienced is due to idpol alone

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>>3302873
where is the Old Left making an appearance?
The AnComs are still pro-immigration social liberals.

>>3302862
I just find it comical how he pushed for destruction of social order everywhere but England because he felt sentimental towards it.
>Spain - fuck Franco, fuck Falange, fully automated luxury anarchism NOW
>America - primitive barbarians and gangsters, they need a good socialist revolution to set them straight
>Russia - GOOD, tsars were cunts and there was nothing in Russian culture worth preserving anyway, fuck all monarchs
>England - ACKSHUALLY, T-THE MONARCHY IN BRITAIN IS A GOOD THING, AND MY PRETTY LITTLE VILLAGES IN KENT ARE SO DREAMY I DON'T WANT NO INDUSTRIALIZATION HERE AND REVOLUTION WOULD BE POINTLESS
Typical "good for thee but not for me" hypocritical English faggot.

>>3302884
>he wouldn't agree with you.
Not on everything, but then again, who would? I simply like his writings and they give a great insight into the time the lived in.

>>3302874
Jeremy Corbyn's campaign in Britain is a sign that the "old left", the left wing that focuses on economic and social equality, has made leaps and bounds, even the Manchester Guardian, one of the most left wing papers in Britain before you start going into the realm of the explicitly extremist like the daily worker didn't support corbyn, and yet he broke practically all expectation, gave May a bloody nose, beat back his own parties calls to back down, he's been extremly successful, and his speeches exemplify the idea of equality, in matters of social standing and economic policy.

>>3302897
He's an anachronism. The UK isn't the world. Look at the US, look and antifa and then hang yourself.

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>>3302888
With pic related pushing the Overton Window.

>still pro-immigration social liberals
You mean American antifa? wew lad. LARPers from both left and right don't count senpai

>>3302905
He is actually being propelled by Momentum, filled with young socialists that Blairites has been sacred of.

Melenchon's Insubordinate France is also another phenomenon of a old school socialist leading a wave of young socialists

>>3302905
>He's an anachronism. The UK isn't the world. Look at the US, look and antifa and then hang yourself.
He's an Anachronism that almost went and won it, the Tories would be in a minority government (read, can't get fuck all done) without the loyalists, which is frankly a fucking horrible position to be put in.

And hell, looking all over the map you see a distinct fall of neoliberalism, Trump openly calls for the creation of uncompetitve business's and protectionism for the sake of the worker, in greece an honest to god fascist party's making ground, poland's moving distinctivly towards worrying authoritarianism.

>>3302529
>left
>libertarian

>>3302891

Actually Franco was the one fighting agaisnt the Government, but ey, dirtycommieswhocaresright?

>>3302839
Government spending increases Aggregate Demand, which, as long as supply continues to grow, will provide more long term economic growth than can be achieved with strictly supply side measures (such as cutting back regulation, or direct investment), which eventually have to give.

>>3302923
>LARP
>they're actually out there throwing punches
>you aren't

>>3302923
>they don't count even though they're the majority
Heh.

>Overton window is real
Worst meme ever

>>3302961
Punching fascists on the street would not suddenly fix their healthcare but rather feeds into the spectacle that will scare the masses into le radical centrists. desu they should join the IWW or the DSA for permanent change. Punching fascists is fine but they has to be something more.

[spoiler] I am not American [/spoiler]

>>3302450
>Of course it wasn't the case in history.
You mean to say that Dzugasvili didn't innovate anything else than killing fellow party members? That the mass terror, omnipotent security organs, war on peasantry, war on religion, attempt to destroy currency, extermination of Don Cossacks, physical extermination of 'bourgoise' as a class etc. were Uljanov's doing?
Which, of course, is a fact.

>>3302946
Doesn't mean i'm full on ancap. Many unknowing capitalist advocates use regulation as a dirty word. However, regulation is essential, but it needs to be smart and flexible, and it shouldn't disproportionately create barriers to entry. The biggest problem of those who advocate for regulation is that they are generally getting money from big businesses, which want regulations that will limit their competition.
Government pumping money does help, but again, it needs to be done carefully. Overspend and things will look great for a time. Until they don't, and then you have to spend more and more. Like giving an alcoholic a bottle of scotch.
My concern is that people in government seldom do things carefully. They want their policies to hold water until their time in office (or limited terms) are done. They want to pocket money from the massive corporations.

>>3302980
We know you're not American, you're an Anglo trashbag.

>>3302992
Keep guessing and projecting faggot

>>3302991
If you're not looking for demand side growth (Government spending is one effective way of getting it, by the by) then you have to implement economic policy that increases the aggregate supply within an economy, which has most commonly been done with lowering government spending and using subsidy, or deregulation, this sounds like a political argument rather than an economic one, you can't just have "smart and flexible" regulation to fix the problem that any regulation is going to impact aggergate supply negatively, your arguments aren't economic, they're arguments against the corruption present within the government, so i hardly see how taking an "economic look" at the situation led you to your current beliefs, because the left's economic position is rather clear, demand side growth, and the right wing economic position is also clear, supply side economic growth.

>>3302939
If this is the only reply you could muster up I shouldn't even continue to argue.

>>3302984
Lenin lived shorter but he was evil piece of shit. In many ways he scares me more than Stalin. He belongs to the era of early marxists back when those idea were relatively new and had many supporters in the west and there was an actual threat of worldwide revolution. Which he tried and failed in 1920.

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>>3302980
>they should join the IWW
American ANTIFA is thoroughly attached to the IWW

>>3302992
America is Anglo you retard

>>3303028

No, is Hispanic.

>>3303028
America is mongrelized, but mostly German. Not Anglo.

>>3303033
you are retarded, and deserve rape

>>3303034
ah yes, all that German we speak. We're a former German colony IIRC.
>muh herituge
that's not how ethnicity works

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>>3303034
>>3303033

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the American left

>>3303044
>language you speak determines your ethnicity
I guess Jamaicans and Trinidadians are Anglos too now. The only place in America that's even remotely English is New England.

>>3303049
>blacks bearing names of their former owners means they're Anglos

>>3303054
The Foudning fathers were Englishmen, the culture that developed in early America (and pressed onto german immgrants) was tinted by the fact that American culture is that of an offshoot of Great Britain.

>>3303053
Jesus christ the sheer racism in the reply has made some of my neurons burn

These people are fucking delusional holy shit

>>3303060
They are an ethnic anomaly, but there is no denying there has been an Anglicization of a previously fully Bantu people
You're an idiot if you don't recognize this.

>>3303054
See above, they're different than most Anglos, they would be best described as Anglicized Negroes, not full Anglo-Saxons.

>>3303069
The founding fathers were Anglos who wanted an Anglo country, but already by 1850 it barely resembled original America due to waves of German and Irish immigration. Thinking modern America has anything to do with George Washington's America ethnically would be pure retardation.

>>3303086
Those Krauts and Micks were very, very, thoroughly assimilated.

>>3303076
Linguistic assimilation and being ethnically English are two completely separate things. Immigrant names also underwent anglicization (Schmiedt -> Smith, Johanssen -> Johnson, etc)

>a day ago thread pops up where one anon posts a picture of nun burned by the Republicans
>day later that's a livid point in every thread
whoa... so this is the power of dialectical process

>>3303092
>Immigrant names also underwent anglicization (Schmiedt -> Smith, Johanssen -> Johnson, etc)
My surname went from Klien to Cline kek

See pic related, America is characterized as an Anglo cultural continuum, and a shared Anglo experience.
Being "American" hearkens back to the British Colonies, simple as that. What is silly is to imagine that just because your great great great grandpappy lived a totally different lifestyle, that everything to do with your life and living today is overwritten.

>>3303109
I always hated the Rethuglicans

>>3303114
>Muhammad Choudary of London changes his name to Jamie Cockbottom
>this magically makes him an ethnic Anglo
Never knew it was this simple.

>>3303119
is Jamie Willy-in-bum living a lifestyle exactly the same as any native Anglo?
It would then be fair to at LEAST consider him an "Anglicized Paki" or something.
I also can't help that this hinges basically on his skin color. Would a Dutchmen be allowed to become Anglo?

Furthermore, are you only a real Anglo if you can trace your lineage directly to some Migration Period boatniggers? What if it turns out that your great-times-40 grandpappy was actually a native Briton?
Face it, your requirements fall apart if it doesn't allow for some leeway.

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>>3303109
Anarchist likes edgy things

>>3303028
imma need more proofs than some IWW slogans in a anti-nazi rally

>>3303133
Americans don't live like Brits in Britain at all, the cultures are utterly different.

>>3303134
also a prominent image from the very same thread, interesting enough

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>>3303136
>I'm going to need more proof than the IWW actually flying ANTIFA flags

well here you fucking go

>>3303137
>a WASP country isn't WASP
if you were to tell me that Hispanicization is leaving many formerly Anglo areas of the US Hispanic, I'd say you're right.
The Mexicans call us Anglos ffs.

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>>3303144
I bet you want this image better

>>3303149
I scanned through their website and they make no mention of any attachment or merger with the ANTIFA. I guess it is just basic solidarity between two left wing groups

>>3303153
>I don't know what the term WASP actually refers to
WASPs were a wealthy ruling class that already faded into obscurity, the W actually stand for wealthy, not white. A tiny minority within a minority.

>>3303157
no, not really, just seems to me like who ever is making these quasi-bait threads never really informed himself of the Spanish Civil War to any depth before seeing the aforementioned thread and is now absolutely SHOCKED by the horrors of war. kinda gay on a history board.

>>3302418
Yeah, they attacked the church because the catholics associated themselves with every conservative movement that stifled every attempt at reform in Spain.

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>>3302418
>>3303177

>>3303049

>Brown

>>3303149
That's not really the same as being part of Antifa or something like that. Left-wing groups typically makes shows of solidarity in an attempt to cut down on the sectarian bickering that tends to hobble them (for instance the leftists during the Spanish Civil War spending more time killing each other than anyone else).

>>3303181
The anarchists themselves were a response to these attempts at reform being quashed. You remember that old line about what happens when peaceful revolution is made impossible? It applies here.

There's a reason social democrats didn't go around killing religious figures and conservatives in countries where peaceful reformation was made possible, and why communist revolutions only really took hold in countries where the governments made a habit of blocking any attempt at fixing matters.

>>3302397
It isn't pro-capitalist in the slightest. The worst that can be said of the socialism of Animal Farm is that it is *just as bad as capitalism*.

>>3302961
It's all larping. They even have their own costumes and "shields" and shit.

>>3302603
>Orwell along with wife and friends fleeing the country because they are being denounced as "fascists" by the commies.
hilarious

>>3302603
Orwell's bitterness is to me like a fine stout. He was refined in his bitterness, and it was something one could seek out for its own sake. He was one of a few leftists that were genuinely honest about the character of leftism.

>>3302746
Sanders is a communist, necessarily left of mere socialism. I'm surprised he didn't even grasp the difference between anarchism and socialism.

Orwell was to the day of his death a democratic socialist. Being critical of other socialists doesn't change this.

It's like saying that a modern conservative isn't on the right wing because they're critical of the recent resurgence of fascists.

>>3303158
>>3303187
AntiFa isn't a full blown organization in-and-of-itself.
It's a militancy label they can adopt, and the IWW REGULARLY attaches itself to the AntiFa movement, and i posted all the evidence you need to show the clear connection between the two.

>>3303209
like wearing all black to perform a Black Bloc? Like a shield to protect yourself from weapons and projectiles?

>>3302569
Yes, you are so against communism that you have to shitpost about it on a computer you can only afford because it was made in China.

>>3303319
not an argument

>>3303315
There's a clear connection between them because they're both left-wing currents. Again, shows of solidarity are not the same as being linked. The IWW is expressly apolitical, and does what it can to stand outside of specific left-wing traditions.

>>3303319
>china is communist

hahahahaha

>>3303319
But it was the market opening in China which allowed it. The commie party doesn't even own the means of production.

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>>3303325
>The IWW is expressly apolitical, and does what it can to stand outside of specific left-wing traditions.

>>3303339
>>3303327
>market socialism isn't a thing

LaughingTito.jpg

>>3303343
The IWW was against an organization that was expressly against their aims of total worker solidarity? Shock and fucking awe.

>>3303345
>total worker solidarity
>apolitical

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>the pigs become no different from the farmers they kicked out in the first place
>yet the book is a defense of communism

>>3303345
>revisionist and proud

Nice fake socialism titoist

>>3303345
Based göring

>>3303315
>like wearing all black to perform a Black Bloc? Like a shield to protect yourself from weapons and projectiles?
Yes, in addition all of that is incredibly dorky. All that's missing are trenchcoats and katanas.

>>3303358
You quoted the wrong post, and they're a left-wing organization that does what it can to stay out of left-wing politics because their interest first and foremost are worker's rights and conditions. They're also pretty upfront that their aim is the abolition of wage labour and bosses.

>>3303360
Go to bed Hoxha.

>>3303363
Either Goring aged very gracefully, or Tito is way too young.

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>>3303370
what is your fucking qualifier for political militancy if not political violence?

are you going to walk up to a 1920s Klan rally and call them all LARPers?

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>>3303393
>Either Goring aged very gracefully, or Tito is way too young.
Is a meme you dip

>>3303409
I recall it was also a serious conspiracy theory (as serious as conspiracy theories can get anyway).

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>>3303393
>he knows about hoxha

>>3303157
s-show boipussi

>>3303319
NOT TRUE COMMUNISM

>>3303425
Oh come on. you can't have been posting on /his/ for that long if you don't inevitably hear about bunker man.

"I must unite the Albanian peoples under thousands of mini-bunkers."

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>Literally have an honest to god African American Communist apologist in my poly sci classes.
Kill me. Please. I can hide my tendencies towards fascism, but his every word is agony. You don't see me making excuses for that shitstain Hitler, but he sees Lenin as savior of humanity.

>>3303399
No, second klan was the real deal. Neo-"klan"? Maybe.

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>>3303432
Is all your anon

>implying Orwell was a socialist
He just lived in a time when that was the only word related to it, Orwell was a "Nordic economical modelist". So basically free-market capitalism with high amount of freedom AND a big welfare state.

Prove me wrong

>>3303466
Prove yourself right first. Because he spoke quite favourably of Anarchist Spain, which was expressly not that.

Such a good socialist was orwells indeed

>In 1949, shortly before he died, the English author George Orwell prepared a list of notable writers and other persons he considered to be unsuitable as possible writers for the anti-communist propaganda activities of the United Kingdom's Information Research Department. A copy of the list was published in The Guardian in 2002, and the original document was released by the Foreign Office soon after.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwell%27s_list

>>3303319
>he still purchases computers
it's 2017

>>3303425
>he doesn't even know about hoxha
What kind of normie faggots are clogging up this board?

>>3303436
Give him a copy of Alexander Berkman's the Bolshevik Myth. It's a journal of his experiences under Lenin's system, maybe seeing it from the perspective of someone favorable to Lenin and initially quite optimistic towards it would help give him a more realistic opinion of it.

>my tendencies towards fascism

Grow up a bit yourself while we're at it.

>>3303495
>this conservative isn't a right-winger because he hates monarchists and fascists

This is you, right now. Sectarian infighting is about as left-wing as you can get.

I said tendencies anon. Not worship.

>>3302450
Homage to Catalonia pretty much paints the commies as ultimately well-meaning, but absolutely retarded.

>>3302529
>bootlicker
>implying that fascists are in any way happy with the status quo
I will never get this phrase

>>3303569
Typically fascists want the status quo with fewer people that offend them and a more authoritarian government.

>>3303651
>fascists want the status quo
This has literally never been the case, you're thinking of conservatives, who have conservation of the status quo in their very name. Fascism wants to rearrange the social order.

>>3303651
>fascists want the status quo

>>3303661
Rearrange the social order to effectively a more authoritarian status quo.

>>3303569
These are the same people who call their dads fascist. Are you really surprised?

>>3303670
>literally wanting to create "New Society" and "New Man"
Literally the abolishment of status quo, brainlet.

>>3303690
>the same basic power dynamics and class relations are preserved
>new society

Kay.

>>3303028
>industrial workers of the world

Who are these college kids trying to fool?

>>3303702
Themselves, mostly

>>3303700
>class conflict replaced with class cooperation and state mediation
>"same power dynamins and class relations are preserved"
You're a mongoloid. Lrn2 national syndicalism and corporatism, which are ideologies fascism is based upon.

>>3303687
There are people on this very board who unironically believe the American Republican Party is fascist. Imagine being that stupid.

>>3303702
No one really. The IWW is an old organization that was once highly active among industrial workers. They made considerable strides in worker's rights and conditions, before losing power rapidly. At this point, joining them is basically historical reenactment.

>>3303716
>if we make them OK with being slaves, there will be no class conflict

Good going Benito.

>>3303702
>labor activists in 1890
"I should be given a wage that doesn't let my children and wife starve to death while I toil for 15 hours a day in a coal mine with no safety standards"
>(((labor))) activists in 2017
"I should be forgiven student loans from my 4 years I spent getting a women's studies degree and I should be given an universal basic income so I can afford jerking off to anime all day and transgender hormone therapy"

>>3303726
>the creators of gulags and collective farms lecturing others about slavery

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>>3303726
Fascism is about class collaboration, unity in the state and nationalism. capitalism is heavy controlled in fascism.

>>3302418
Oh yeah it's because the Church sided with the fascists.

>>3302384
this is more /lit/

>>3302839
That Thatcher quote is a textbook strawman.

>>3303295
>Sanders is a communist

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>>3302933
What's so hard to understand?

>>3302407
why do you hate homosexuals so much?

>>3302384
Why is "class consciousness" considered good and race consciousness considered bad, and a ploy by the capitalists to divide the proletariat? I'd wager that race consciousness is a far more real thing than class consciousness, and that class consciousness is a ploy by (((certain people))) to divide the nation.

>>3304182
Because rich white/black/yellow cunts generally don't care about poor white/black/yellow cunts, which they consistently prove by hiring foreign workers who aren't white/black/yellow

>>3304182
I'm sure you're a "race realist" who has to "redpill the masses" aren't you my internet warrior friend.

>>3304197
Nice ad hom leftycuck

>>3304182
This. Race is an objective biological reality while class is just a made up social structure.

>>3302827
1984 is woke tho, Huxley was optimistic.

>>3302884
>you don't care about the actual intellectual interests of this person, you only care that he's on your side, that you have someone you can claim was in agreement with you to make your ideology looks better
>Orwell was a socialist

he would look at what modern leftists have turned socialism into in horror you know

>>3304182
>le (((meme)))
Hahaha le so le (((funny))) le (((epik meme))) XDDD!!!!

>>3304458
Nice ad hom leftycuck

>>3304395
>woke
Fuck off back to twatter

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>>3303717
>implying IWW can't be rebuilt
Better to fix something broken then make a new one

>>3304409
He already did that to idpol liberals in Qigan Pier

>>3303498
>Grow up a bit yourself while we're at it.
>Any views deemed taboo by my modern society must only be held by children and ignoramuses!
Lmaoing at this lemming

>>3304361
Race is a social construct as well, friendo.

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>>3302384
>1984
>one dimensional villains that only want totalitarianism for totalitarianisms sake
>le masterpiece

>modern socialism = communist dictatorship 50 years ago

>the only two choices are "communism" and right wing politics

back to /pol/

The thread has nothing to do with history.

>>3305809
This, 1984 is "I'm 13 and this is deep" tier. They should go read Anthem, or We.

>>3304182
They're short bus kids who can't into hard science.

>>3305868
>>3305809
pretentious little shits.

>>3305809
>>3305868
Please go back to [spoiler]/lit/[/spoiler]

>>3302384
>>hurr communism is actually good, we just need to do it right

You didn't read the book did you?

>>3305652
Rooted in biological reality. Just like separating mammals from reptiles, or animals from plants, is a social construct, but rooted in biological reality.

>>3304182
Because you can't get rid of race, it's genetic. Race consciousness would go against both Christian roots of western society and the current dogma of liberalism.

>divide the nation
Race consciousness could divide nations as wel, or at least the American nation.

>>3306149
Wouldn't balkanization on racial lines be the best solution then?

>>3306151
Solution to what?

Also
>Racial lines
>Balkanization
You would unite Europe into one country and Africa into two countries, how's that balkanization?

>>3305809
>evaluating it on its villains

Yep, you're an idiot. The story is about Winston, an ordinary, sane man in a bizarre world gone insane. He wants the same shit most people to do: to relax, to fuck, to enjoy a good beer or a good smoke, and to hate his menial job. The story is about his coping in a world where none of this is an option. Of course the villains are inhuman and lacking in human traits like depth, they're not supposed to be figures to be empathized with, because an ordinary man can't empathize with them.

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>>3306175
>hurrhurr no sex, fun or relationships allowed because reason
>Big brothers being able to reshape history and national identity in just a couple of decades
I get that he wanted to take totalitarianism to the extremes but this shit is retarded.
Also on a sidenote if the wars are fake why do they change the narative of who is an enemy/ally all the time, that just increase the chance of people figuring out their bullshit.
Orwell was just butthurt about Stalin and sperged out.
1984 is just a bit strawman

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>>3305868
>Reading Ayn Rand

>>3303053
So is this idpol stuff a psyop to make sure america never develops any class conscieness, or is it because they've relised that they're part of the 1% golbally speaking and want to preserve their own lifestyles, even if it's at the expensense of PoC in other countires doing the shit jobs for no pay?

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>>3302384
>be george orwell
>write a book about how economic systems
>subtly make your opinion known about all of them
>thinks communism is shit
>thinks capitalism isn't the best
>ironically thinks fascism is ok aside from the fact hitler misused it
>writes about how mr. frederick's farm (Axis Powers) is alot better than mr. pilkington's (Allied Powers) or animal farm (Comintern)

>>3306506
>using the word idpol
Go back to your containment shithole

>>3306531
>Orwell was ok with fascism
What?

>>3302450
>I heard it's not really about whitewashing the commies.
It isn't biased to anyone, it just tells it how it was. Shit and confusing.

>>3306598
I don't know about fascism, but Orwell was an AnCap prior to going to Spain

Kids retarded

>>3306531
Orwell was a socialist, you plonker
He spent a lot of time alongside the anarchists and libertarian marxists in the fight against fascism in Spain and hated Stalinists because of how they fucked over the libsocs

>>3306625
Anarcho-Capitalism wasn't even a thing in Orwell's time, he had some Anarcho-Communist leanings though

>>3305809
>Only "complicated im so smart" bullshit is good
Whats wrong with a simple horrible story?

>>3306332
>that just increase the chance of people figuring out their bullshit.
Thats literally what they want, have you even read the book? If its a simple as you claim, you've sure missed a lot of it.

>>3306640
Maybe I'm ill-informed on what Tory Anarchism is, but is that not essentially Ancap? Orwell was a Tory Anarchist before Spain, then

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>>3306598
Mr. Pilkington (Allied Powers/Capitalists):
>One of them, which was named Foxwood, was a large, neglected, old-fashioned farm, much overgrown by woodland, with all
its pastures worn out and its hedges in a disgraceful condition.


Mr. Frederick (Axis Powers/Fascists):
>The other farm, which was called
Pinchfield, was smaller and better kept.

Key word: better kept

>>3306659
Are you british?

>>3306659
Why are you just pulling stuff out of your ass? For what purpose?

>>3306637
>>3306659
He presented fascism more favorably in his book than Stalinism or capitalism.

>>3306664
>>Why are you pulling stuff out of your ass? For what purpose?
>being this retarded
It's in the book, go read it.

>>3306663
no

>>3306652
Give me a good reason why they would do that shit then, especially when they remove all the enjoyments from the outer party members life. Desperate and angry people with nothing to lose are more likely to rebel

>>3306666
>He presented fascism more favorably in his book than Stalinism or capitalism
Any communist/socialist who sees a problem with this is a deluded tankie/more interested in identity politics than equality. I never understoon why some communists/socialists decided to make fascism their no.1 enemy instead of capitalism.

>>3302450
Homage to Catalonia basically describes the initial hype and euphoric feeling that the actually oppressed citizens felt when they overthrew all the structures that had kept them in chains for so long. But it also tells about the degradation of the anarcho-socialist society and how easily infighting and power hungry individuals destroyed it.
It arrives at the conclusion that its all a utopian dream that might be amazing in theory, but its something that will never really work in practice.
>>3303562
basically this

>>3306833
>they remove joys from the outer party life
Which is why they distrbute porn?

>>3306879
They distribute it to the proles, the outer party members can't look at it