Is the winter on the eastern front overrated? In all my life

>>3300465
>tfw hitler believed that because he used shorts at -10° when he was a kid the german army could conquer russia in winter

Winter has nothing to do with the shitty and dusty Soviet roads putting upwards of half your machines out of service.
Winter has nothing to do with the Soviets' scorched earth policy towards the railroad network, forcing you to rebuild track and service facilities, operating them at low capacities, and having to deal with the poor roadbed by using older and lighter locomotives.
Winter has nothing to due with partisans destroying said railway lines once you've rebuilt them.
Winter has nothing to do with the scorching hot summers requiring your horse-drawn supply lines to stop frequently for water breaks, or outbreaks of disease immobilizing them.
Winter has nothing to do with the literally thousands of types of vehicles you use, taken from all over Europe, and the resulting maintenance nightmare that follows when you need spare parts for all of them.
Winter has nothing to do with the millions of Soviet reservists being called up every month and fanatically defending every inch of ground.
And of course, there's the muddy spring and autumn seasons where mechanized units are basically immobile.
In short, winter was a pretty big deal, but there were a million other factors that were just as serious and weren't related to it.

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Nah, it's the thawing snow and ice making seas of mud that really fucks you up, in winter at least the roads are solid

>>3300524
All of that shit the germans had to go through and the only factor that stopped them was only the lack of manpower they had.
Truly those guys really were the ubermenschen and they deserve every respect there is.

>>3300533
This. Germans actually waited until the ground was frozen over to start their offensives.

>>3300557
The lack of manpower became an issue because those ubermenschen kept dying in droves.

>>3300557
>list of factors that stopped them
>the only factor that stopped them was only the lack of manpower they had
what
unless the fact that divisons were stopping from the very start of the campaign due to supply problems doesn't count

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>>3300583
>Droves
nice meme, still for every german there were 2 other bolshevik scum
>>3300585
Oh boy they sure were stopped on top of all those shitty conditions! oh wait...

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>>3300619
>attack that was conducted along a single axis due to large losses in material and shortages of fuel, suffered supply problems just like the year before, and got BTFO anyways
is this supposed to prove my point

>>3300619
and yet for all that they didn't capture an outlet to the caspian, they didn't capture chechnya, they didn't capture baku and with that failed to capture caucasian oil

>>3300657
it wasnt conucted because of large losses you idiot. it was conducted for the oil.
And yes as I said only lack of manpower stopped them thanks for supporting me
What a schockingly efficent and unstoppable army everyday im awed at how good they were compared to worthless soviets

>>3300657
seriously on top of all of that they still managed to function to the point of almost winning im speechless...
What an army! All of this board should be talking about how good they were wow

>no winter
>Zhukov still arrives with 14 armies to save Moscow
>Germans still have no oil, no supply network, and no hope of beating the Allies

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>>3300720
>it wasnt conucted because of large losses you idiot. it was conducted for the oil.
my point was that it wasn't a front-wide attack like barbarossa due to shortages in materiel and fuel, retard
>And yes as I said only lack of manpower stopped them thanks for supporting me
where the fuck did i mention manpower in my post

>>3300745
there was no need for a front wide attack you historically illiterate tryhard ever thought of that?

>>3300731
in 1941 they were forced to retreat due to the winter. This is universally accepted. Zhukov would have been fucked with his ragtag shit milita with barely any weapons in june lol where did you go to high school

>>3300777
>Germans have no more reserves
>German general staff estimate infantry division fighting capability at only 65% effectiveness and armour divisions at only 35% effectiveness due to losses and lack of supplies
>German logistical units running on horse and carriage because trains don't fit on tracks

You do realize how fucked the Germans and how fresh Zhukov's Siberian armies were right? The generals wanted to retreat way back as soon as Zhukov made first contact with them to prevent the entire line from collapsing. They may have physically entered Moscow if winter didn't occur but they weren't staying there for long much like Stalingrad and Leningrad

>>3300465
Hans and Ivan both froze the same. Difference was that Ivan had warm coat, while the uniform Hans had was only good for attracting Fritz.

Another thing was that Germans relied on Zerg rush and the stall caused by blizzards helped Russians to get their shit together.

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>>3300777
>The most experienced divisions in the Red Army
>Trained in airborne, mountain and ski warfare
>Rag tag militia

>>3300619
>nice meme, still for every german there were 2 other bolshevik scum
You don't die less hard for having killed someone else.

>>3300777
German advance was stopped months before the winter.

>This is universally accepted.
No, it's only accepted among the retarded.

>>3300959
that is why they were at the gates of moscow by december right?
>XDDD le germans never stood a chance XDD
learn some history lol

>>3300465
>Is it true?
Winter certainly played a part, but the Germans still would've lost even if there was no winter.

>>3302197
Germany did not have the industrial or military capacity to conquer Russia, with the caveat that as long as the frontline Russian commanders were political appointments they could inflict disproportionate casualties.

Once the Russians got their shit together, they learned how to conduct army scale encirclements, defenses in depth, and front wide strategic offensives pretty quickly.

>>3302197
>Scouting party gets within sight of city, having had to sneak through enemy lines to do so.
>This clearly means they were about to capture said city.
Does stormfaggotry make otherwise normal people stupid, or is it just that idiots flock to stormfaggotry and wehrabooism?

>>3302264
>Does kikefaggotry make otherwise normal people stupid, or is it just that idiots flock to kikefaggotry and zionism?
The question OP asked was whether they could conquer it in june you worthless brainwashed dolt.

>>3302289
No, no they could not have. This should be obvious to anyone with a functioning brain.

http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/104/104-21/cmhPub_104-21.pdf

>>3302301
>le document I just googled proves it!!!! XD
end yourself I hope your line dies out

>>3302223
>Germany did not have the industrial or military capacity to conquer Russia,
A common myth even professors don't agree with that statement anymore.

>Once the Russians got their shit together, they learned how to conduct army scale encirclements, defenses in depth, and front wide strategic offensives pretty quickly.

That is why they failed at everything they did against the superior germans right? The one operation that literally won the eastern front was because of romanian flanks. Learn something before you post.

>>3300465
Daily reminder that soviets did jack shit to defeat Hitler. They would've lost without the aid of allies

>>3300465
If it wasn't for the allies, germans would beat the living crap out of so called red """army""".

>>3302355
>A common myth even professors don't agree with that statement anymore.
Let's see some modern history professors with their disagreement, shall we?

>That is why they failed at everything they did against the superior germans right?
I take it you've never heard of things like Yelyna or Vyzama.

>The one operation that literally won the eastern front was because of romanian flanks.
And they had the Romanians guarding the flanks because the Germans took close to 50% operational losses in Blau just getting to Stalingrad, and needed to try to take the city too. They had spread themselves far too thin.

>Learn something before you post.
Pot, meet kettle.

>>3302381
>Let's see some modern history professors with their disagreement, shall we?
Look mom I'M watching ((((CERTIFIED)))) professors!!! XD
>Yelyna and Vyazma were so worthless that even germans didn't consider it as a loss. The soviets gained nothing out of it you retard.

And they had the Romanians guarding the flanks because the Germans took close to 50% operational losses in Blau just getting to Stalingrad, and needed to try to take the city too. They had spread themselves far too thin.

No they had the romanians guarding the flanks because army group A was going for baku idiot.
Where did you get this 50% meme? At most their losses were close to 30% while the soviets were getting depleted at an insurmountable rate. If they didn't get greedy the germans could have defended the flanks with a wide smile.
Pot, meet kettle reddit

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>>3302381
As you can see not that much of a difference
germans could have won at a laughable rate if they didn't make that much blunders

>>3302400
>Look mom I'M watching ((((CERTIFIED)))) professors!!! XD
Then why did you make the claim that "even professors don't agree with that statement anymore"? >>3302355

>Yelyna and Vyazma were so worthless that even germans didn't consider it as a loss
[citation needed]. Especially since you know, the Vyzama attack, the one around Moscow in the winter, fucked them up pretty badly.

>Where did you get this 50% meme?
From Glantz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Clz27nghIg I don't remember exactly where, but it's probably about 30-35 minutes in where he goes into the 1942 stuff.

>As you can see not that much of a difference
Do you seriously not understand how posting a force differential at the start of offensive says absolutely nothing about how many losses were sustained DURING the offensive?

>>3300533
This, winter was the only reason why were krauts able to (almost) reach Moscow, without it, they would get stucked in mud.

>>3302451
seriously dude look for real professors not the youtube "famed" ones.. Didn't anyone ever tell you about this?

The Vyazma attack only fucked them because of winter again nothing to do with the red army.

I read enough sources to know that 50% is definitely not the percentage of losses from the germans side, glantz used outdated soviet estimates.

So if we are going that way the russians LOST EVEN MORE than the germans

>>3302464
Can you provide us with your sources and professors?

>>3302464
>The Vyazma attack only fucked them because of winter again nothing to do with the red army.
Imagine having so pathetic army you get defeated by snowflakes
>So if we are going that way the russians LOST EVEN MORE than the germans
War isnt call of duty team deathmatch

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>>3302468
here have this and go search for yourself im not your mother

>>3302484
>I don't have to prove anything
Also your picture over there is taking into account POW deaths on the USSR side, should be more like 7 million if we're talking KIA.

>>3302492
Or 8.9 million at best.

>>3302482
>Imagine having so pathetic army you get defeated by snowflakes
EBIN XD

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>>3302495
>>3302492
Source for 8 mil

>>3302464
>seriously dude look for real professors not the youtube "famed" ones.
So, you have no idea who David Glantz is, or how he's one of the most prominent scholars on the Eastern Front? Author of books like Stumbling Colossus, August Storm, and Soviet Military Operational Art?

>The Vyazma attack only fucked them because of winter again nothing to do with the red army.
Move those goalposts harder. You claimed that the "Germans didn't consider it a loss".

>I read enough sources to know that 50% is definitely not the percentage of losses from the germans side, glantz used outdated soviet estimates.
Considering you don't even know some of the famous actions on the Eastern Front, I'm going to remain skeptical. But please, show your sources.

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>>3302504
>Move those goalposts harder. You claimed that the "Germans didn't consider it a loss".

it was the winter still that fucked them and they didn't consider it as a loss because in less than a year the boys were back in track to crush the incompetent russians all the way to baku.

>Considering you don't even know some of the famous actions on the Eastern Front
>implying

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>>3302502
>>3302495
>>3302492
German estimates also indicate about 3 million commies dying as POWs:
>German estimates covering the whole war put the number of Soviet prisoners of war (PoWs) dying under Nazi control at 3.3 million.
Theo. J. Schulte, The German Army and Nazi Policies in Occupied Russia, p.181.

>>3302524
>26.6 million dead
>by far the worst k/d of any country in the war
shoo shoo reddit commies

>>3302548
>Taking into account civilian deaths
Not an argument

>>3302555
In war, being on the defensive is far easier than the offensive. You outnumbered the Germans and had a numbers advantage. In spite of that, you were bent over and raped by Hans until winter came.

>>3302558
I wasn't the one arguing for "muh winter maymays" so idk why you're just jumping from argument to argument. I was explaining why your k/d maymay is wrong.

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>>3302564
fucking /his/ with this ID less system i had enough

>>3302571
Also if you want an actual "worst k/d of any country in the war" just look at some Chinese wars.

In war you fight with whatever advantage you can get to win. Snow and disregard for number deaths are just as valid strategies as close combat maneuvers.

>>3302577
>>3302564
We should have genocided the Germans to fix the K//D. I'm sure wehraboos would agree that suffering 90 million casualties against the Soviet Army would indicate a rather shitty army.

>>3302523
Battle of Kiev in 1941 wasnt a loss, because in less than a 2 years Soviets were back in trac to crush incompetent Krauts back to the Berlin.
>>3302548
>if we kill a lot civiliansm, edgy stormfags will praise us 75 years later

>>3302464
>glantz used outdated soviet estimates


Haven't read through all of this thread but what even is considered to be the "go to" volume for the Eastern Front these days? Ever since Glantz has fallen out of favor I haven't heard of any other text that comes close.

>>3303375
outdated soviet estimates are better than American outdated estimates tho

>>3303412
Perhaps, I'm just curious what are some other "must have" east front books.

>>3300465
>In all my life I've always heard people proclaim that it was general winter who defeated the germans. Is it true?
General Winter itself was a French meme created by buttblasted Napoleonists after they got BTFO.

>>3303375
Has Glantz really fallen out of favor? I usually see nothing but praise for him.
https://archive.org/details/GermanyAndSecondWorldWarVolumeIVAttackOnSovietUnion
This volume and volumes VI and VIII are pretty good and go into great detail, it's produced by the military history office of the German armed forces and draws on a lot of archival material. It's more focused on the German side compared to Glantz who focuses more on the Soviets.