Generalplan Ost

>>3293779
Its just a more autistic version of the Eastern Land Strip plan by the German Empire.

>>3293779
>Hmmm I never heard Lataglia- oh....

>>3293779
And yet Ukrainians praise Nazis to this day.

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>>3293810
What did they do to trigger Hitler this much though?

>>3293779
Masturbatory rollercoaster tier fanfic.

>>3293779
Plain evil.

>>3294006
What did he mean by this?

>>3294304
It's made-up.

>>3294355
It's not. It's a pipe dream and I think even the germs knew that, but still.

>>3293779
A bit of both, but the reason why is simply a merging of Germany's ideology that calls for rapid and merciless expansion to the benefit of the nation state and the desperate need for resources like grain, oil, and iron. To them, any non-german who was using up resources that could be used for the war effort was a drain on their rise to power that needed to be eliminated.

It makes demented sense to just murder everyone and take their land and resources for your own benefit, but doing so on such a massive and industrial scale is simply not sustainable due to how much resistance it was faced with.

It's actually hard to wrap my head around how much anger the Soviet people felt after all their crimes became apparent as they reclaimed occupied territory and saw what happened during the occupation. Including stories of Soviet and American soldiers alike discovering the concentration camps and just opting to murder the entire complex's staff out of pure rage at what they saw in the camps.

>>3293779
It was a draft of proposal of a plan drawn up by some autist that was never approved by Hitler or Himmler, of course a
Soviets heard of it and bloated it up like a definitive decision for propaganda purposes.

>>3294416
>Including stories of Soviet and American soldiers alike discovering the concentration camps and just opting to murder the entire complex's staff out of pure rage at what they saw in the camps.
Got any?

>>3294438
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_liberation_reprisals

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3067988/Let-s-Nazi-dogs-Enraged-horrors-Dachau-concentration-camp-arriving-liberate-WWII-prisoners-American-soldiers-executed-50-Germans-cold-blood-reveals-new-book.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes#Germany

>>3294457
thx tovarish

бaмп

>>3293810
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latgalian_language

>>3293814
Well the nazis wanted to do this (and failed) but the Soviets actually pulled it off.

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>>3293786
this

pic related was annexed by Germany during the war and was intended to be colonized by Eastern Front veterans

>>3293814
[citation needed]

>>3295446
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)

>>3293779
I genuinely don't believe that Generalplan Ost would've been stuck to if the Germans won, at least if they won in the East. I remember seeing estimates on how long it would take to populate the Danzig corridor and the annexed regions of Poland and there just simply wasn't and wouldn't be enough Germans to settle

>>3295461
clearly its a small party without significant power. and it doesn't seem to fully embrace nazism but has a sort of ambiguous relation to it. clearly its more about hardcore ukrainian nationalism than it is about nazism. it doesnt at all prove that ukrainians identify with nazism nor does it prove that people supporting the party you link even know what nazism was. And even if they do identify with nazism, whose to say this isn't a recent phenomenon having to do with historic developments (resentment of russia) and out of ignorance of nazi policies?

>>3295480
The Germans already resettled 1,000,000 people to Poland by 1944. There's no reason to believe they would just magically give up of something that was the core of their ideology.

>>3295480
>I genuinely don't believe that the Endlösung will be stuck to if the Nazi party wins...I remember seeing estimates on how long it would take to exterminate the jewish population of Germany and blablabla

>>3293779
Hitler was no psychopath. Psychopaths are perfectly in touch with reality, they simply lack empathy and choose to do evil. Stalin is a classic psychopath. Hillary is a classic psychopath. Hitler was controlled by his emotions. He was psychositic and eventually a drug addict and probably a good deal of autism

>>3295510
>Hitler was no psychopath.
>Hillary is a classic psychopath. Hitler was controlled by his emotions.
wat?

>>3293844
Its interesting my grandfather was german and my grandmother norwegian, my great grandmother was based immigrant from norway, never learned very much english, used to call my grandfather a nigger in norwegian

>>3295528
speak english faggot? or do you just selectively edit text for fun. Hillary is a classic psycopath. Hitler is classic psychotic

>>3295538
i mistook hillary for hitler, so i thought you were contradicting yourself. that said, i really think its fucking stupid to call hillary psycho. the dust hasn't even settled yet and as it is american politics is very polarized at the moment, so to make a kind of judgement like that and shoehorn it into this thread is unnecessary.

>>3294438
no because we are not kike shills. the red army were obviously not experiencing "pure rage at what they saw in the camps" because they had all likely survived far worse attrocities during the purges and forced starvation under Stalin. And those were just the regular front line red army soldiers. The second wave of conscripts from the gulag and mongoloid tribes were sent to germany not to fight, but to rape and torture the Germans into submission, the committed far worse attrocities against the East Germans than even were supposedly committed in the camps

>>3294416
>murder the entire complex's staff out of pure rage at what they saw in the camps.
Out of rage my ass, at this point of the war these troops had seen thousands of corpses and hundreds of inhuman sceneries, had commited dozens of absurd manslaughters, they were exhausted physically and psychologically, they were just apathetic psychopaths. Thinking they had any kind of feeling for the civilian victims is pure romanticism. They killed these beasts out of necessity because that's what beasts do to each others, period.

>>3295552
she is, if you want to study her closely, you will find that she is clearly a psychopath, but that is why I also included Stalin as an example. Stalin is also an example of a classic psychopathic personality who is historical and not current

>>3295552
She is a case study of a psycho.

>>3295569
someone has been watching to many PBS documentaries and Quentin Tarantino movies

>>3295568
can't rape the willing

>>3295568
>>>/pol/
Why do you fags lie so much?

>>3295600
so your argument is that I am lying about the fact that there were 30-40 million murdered by Stalin during the purges or I am lying about the red army soldiers not being naive quoir boys who would fly into a hysterical rage at the slightest sense of injustice

>>3295596
yes I am sure you would have been willing to be raped by a mongoloid red army soldier but that is just because you are a faggot

>>3295600
Why do redditcucks think they belong here and not on reddit/SA?

>>3293779
Slavs are basically the niggers of europe. It would only have cleansed the continent.

>>3295621
You lie about everything, i've never seen a /pol/ post that's a not blatant lie/propaganda piece.
>>3295631
Why do you think people buy the shit you spout?

>>3295637
Why do redditcucks spout their shit here and THINK we don't know you come from reddit, SA or Neogaf?

You're obvious as fuck. Just the way you type.

>>3295637
sure, it is a lie to you because you say so. but in the common reality shared by other people, Stalin murdered appx 40 million people an there is not possibility that the red army soldiers discovering the german work camps would have felt even the slightest outrage compared to what they had already survived

>>3295587
>>3295575
As I say, politics in america is polarized, so to make a judgement like that is premature. We need a few decades of distance before we conclude something as drastic as that. Anyway pathologizing people in general based on scanty evidence is to politicize the language of psychiatry (a field that i anyway think is mostly garbage and filled with careerism, pseudoscience, professional lobbying and self-serving agendas to institutionalize its own power, etc. etc.). It's just as bad as those psychiatrists who tried to pathologize goldwater or trump. Tbh I'm even against pathologizing Stalin or Hitler. I'm more interested to see how they developed their ideas, what was their own reasoning behind their actions and how they were allowed to get away with their violence than i am about putting them in psychiatric categories.

>>3295642
You're that "all leftists want safespace" shizo, you're obvous as fuck. Get help, seriously.
>>3295646
You too.

>>3295642
>calls other redditcucks
>uses reddit spacing

>>3295621
>30-40 million murdered
I swear people change the number every fucking day. Sometimes its 50 gorillion, sometimes 70 to 100 gorillion. What is clear to me is that people have an interest in exaggerating the numbers to make an ideological point. It's also to ignore the scholarship on this matter, where most historians conclude it was more like 10(?) to 20 million that got killed under Stalin purposefully or through negligence.

>>3295647
there is voluminous evidence to pathologize both hitler and stalin. there are probably very few people who have been studied more closely. You may disagree with the diagnosis, and present evidnce to the contrary, but you cannot reasonably argue that there is not enough evidence to make a judgment. I am sure they both did have certain reasoning behind their actions, even the most delusional psychotics do, that does not prevent me from making an empirical judgment based on the evidnce

>>3295654
SA goontard is SEETHING he knows hes been exposed and is about to be utterly BTFO

SA retards are the BIGGEST losers on the internet. SA is crashing and burning, SJW's failed, SRS failed, and leftypol failed.

>>3295657
I've been typing like this before reddit existed cuck

>>3295666
I don't know what SA is. Sturmabteilung perhaps?

Anyway don't project your impotent rage on me, shizo.

>>3295660
ok fine, you can argue the number, but you can't argue the original premise that the red army would have experience "pure rage at what they saw in the camps". that is obviously an extra historical political invective that has been spread in popular media by the (((puerto ricans))))

>>3295666
If you are so obsessed with cucking I suggest you get help redditor.

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>>3295629
>you would have been willing
I'm not a kraut, so no I wouldn't have been

>>3295647
There is nothing about politicization, read Shattered (quite objective) and see how she reacts.

What especially comes to mind is her losing it during a prep debate and yelling at her mock opponent.

>>3295684
I didnt say you were a kraut did I? I said you were a faggot

>>3295688
all fags are krauts, though
and I'm not a kraut

>>3295568
Give it up Hans.

>>3295664
The evidence to me indicates that the mental state was entirely dependent on their life course. Hitler in 1920 was different from the Hitler of 1930, 1933, 1934, 1939, 1941. It was a common joke before 1933 to lampoon Hitler as a person who, had he not found politics, would have been a used car or insurance salesman. But as events turned out, he was put into a position that would exacerbate his worst character traits. Whereas, for example, he listened to counsel before 1934, after the Night of Long Knives he became increasingly unassailable because 1) he started to believe in his own cult of personality 2) his domestic and foreign policy success made him more self-confident in his own shitty ideas 3) he became increasingly withdrawn from the public and from his own confidantes because he was notoriously lazy and incapable of routine and also because the Hitler cult made him self-conscious about his image as a nearsacred and infallible being. Basically, circumstances gave him incentive to be crazier than he could have been in some other alternate timeline. The whole drug addiction made this all worse.

>>3295702
that is an incorrect premise. that is why you are have a cock up your ass, because your central premise is unrealistic

>>3295686
>Shattered (quite objective)
fair enough. there are people in even politicized times who are capable of objective and perceptive analysis, but its hard to sort that out in our own times as the course of events usually vindicates some analyses while showing that others, despite their cleverness, were off the mark.
>see how she reacts.
reacts to what?
>What especially comes to mind is her losing it during a prep debate and yelling at her mock opponent.
kek. But as I see it, really, this is more because Hillary was not meant to be a politician. She has ALWAYS been riding on the coattails of her husband and when she tried to step into his role she failed to make the grade. Its like a b-list actor somehow getting the star role to a Hollywood oscar bait movie.

>>3295707
a "cock up my ass" would obviously mean that I am a faggot, but, as we have established earlier, only krauts can be correctly said to indulge in faggotry, and I am not one
unless you are implying that deep in my subconscious I am a self-hating kraut, which is honestly a rather perplexing and quite terrifying thought

>>3293779
I would say it was fake. propaganda like 90% of the nazi stories

>>3295706
I can agree with that generally. My assesment was that Hitler's father was the sterotypical stern, efficient prussian. He was a managerial type civil servant. Hitler was highly emotional and intuitive. He never would have been an insurance salesman, that is the type of career that Hitler's father would have pushed him into. Hitler broke with his father and made his meager living as an artist on the streets of vienna. However, Hitler still received hi fair share of Prussian emotional repression, and he learned to control his emotions and became interested in reactionary politics. Because of his ability to repress his emotions, people began to trust him and he was continually placed into of authority which he did not want and was not competent to manage. He also discovered his ability to emotionally move a crowd. After his famous rallies hew would become so emotionally exhausted that he would be in a com-like state for days. This is also why he was always an erratic leader and terrible strategist and eventually developed a drug dependency

>>3295595
Muricans and Soviets raped their way to Germany, what do you think. They killed thousands of civilians in Western and Eastern Europe, and suddenly omg this is horrible let's do something for justice...? Seriously?

>>3294416
wow you are clearly brainwashed to death?? you realize that the holocaust was exaggerated and the stats are inaccurate. also dumb to think that germans would kill everybody they met , reality shows they did not. I honestly think. generalplan ost is bullshit, totally impossible logistically and realistically

>>3295728
as, I said, your premise is simply incorrect. Al Krauts are not faggots. I have personally witnessed several faggots who were not of German ancestry. You could perform a web browser search right now and discover that for yourself, you may have already done so many times which would support my theory that you are a faggot. why dont you send me a copy of your browser history and then we can incontrovertably prove or disprove my theory that you are a faggot

>>3295742
I am not drawing any conclusions based on that information other than that the red army soldiers did not experience any "pure rage at what they saw in the camps"

They weren't going to murder all of them though, they were going for some kind of trail of tears/Armenian genocide type of plan that would ensure they are out of their homelands but died quietly and without much exposure to the public. There were also plans to germanise some Polish and Czechs, and there were plans for Ukrainians and Russians to be made as permanent indentured servants/slaves.

I really don't know how realistic the whole plan was, the numbers are just too big, and it's impossible to imagine a scenario where Germany conquers all of Russia.

>>3295742
apparently the soviets even raped the malnourished survivors of some KZ, to some people the allies were white knights in shining armor. in reality they were the same shitheads as their opponents, the only thing that was different was their uniform. many says the soviets were even more savage then germans, i generally think this is true because the wehrmacht was generally well behaved and honourable

>>3295568

payback is a bitch as they say

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>>3295750
>tfw it seems I was the crypto-kraut all along after all

>>3295772
>because the wehrmacht was generally well behaved and honourable
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht

>>3295772

The Wehrmacht was not really clean, they did several war crimes against the native Russian citizens, out of which some 13 million died. which is why the Soviets treated German pows mercilessly.

>>3295737
yes that's a good assessment imo. ironically though Hitler's father was a habsburg loyalist through and through and hated prussia. you're very much right too about hitler not fit for being an insurance saleman. he was a bohemian type but sadly lacking in bohemian creativity, mostly cause the faggot never tried to apply himself (i suspect because to apply himself would be convert himself into everything he hated about his father).

>>3295772
>because the wehrmacht was generally well behaved and honourable
as were the frontline red army soldiers, they were disciplined and more or less honorable, the german survivors recount that they first wave of red army soldiers, the combat troops, were professional, even polite. However, Stalin intentionally sent a second wave conscripted of criminals and mongoloids from the gulag specifically to rape and torture the germans into submission

ITT stormfag tears

>>3295778
you can dream

>>3295793
can't we all?

>>3295782
he said generally. as compared to the attrocities the people of that region had already survived, the german whermacht must have seemed discipline, professional and even polite at times. many initially thought they were being liberated

>>3295678
Why? How does a small amount of people in your area dying of hunger or people dying elsewhere out of sight or in battle compare to seeing hordes of jews turned into skellingtons and murdered industrially?
I don't think you understand scale and think soviet atrocities all happened in one place.

>>3295797
no. race is not a social construct. it is categorical description based on empirical biological evidence

>>3295805
6 gorillion jews vs. 70 gorillian starved, purged and sent to the gulag by stalin. we can debate the actual numbers, but Stalin's attrocities were of an order of magnitude higher than Hitler's

>>3295806
what does this have to do with experiencing involuntarily succession of images, sensations and emotions while sleeping?

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>>3295484
>>3295446

>>3295816
the dream state still has be be based on a metaphsycial object

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>>3295635
Germans are the niggers of Europe.

>>3295805
I would sincerely doubt that there was a single soviet citizen not personally affected by the purges

>>3295825
like the metaphorical cock up my ass?

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>>3295813
How much is it now, 40 or 70 million? Or 100? get your stats right

>>3295825
technically the southern slavs are the niggers of europe, just saying, ask the brits why they voted for brexit

>>3295503
GP Ost was never approved by anybody.

>>3295839
I am theorizing that it is a literal cock up your ass. I am currently gathering data to support that thesis

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>>3295843
>"Germany planned to completely remove the indigenous population of Poland beginning with the newly created Reichsgau Wartheland territory in 1939. According to the Lebensraum aim and ideology, formerly Polish lands were to be taken over by the German military and civilian settlers including Eastern European Volksdeutsche. The "Germanizing" of occupied territories by the Reich was repeatedly condemned by Nuremberg Tribunal which stated that the practice of expelling civilians was "not only in defiance of well-established rules of international law, but in complete disregard of the elementary dictates of humanity."[60] During the occupation of Poland, the number of Poles evicted by the German authorities from their homes is estimated at 2,478,000.[61][62] Up to 928,000 Poles were ethnically cleansed to make way for the foreign colonists.[63]"

>"Himmler promised to eventually deport all Poles to Russia. He envisioned their ultimate end by exposure, malnutrition and overwork possibly in the Pripet Marshes where all Poles were to die during the cultivation of the marshy swamps. Plans for the mass transportation and possible creation of slave labor camps for up to 20 million Poles were also made.[67]"

>>3295635
Still butthurt about the pogroms, Schlomo? You didn't get nearly enough.

>>3295849
I repeat:
>GP Ost was never approved by anybody.
It was a fucking draft.

>>3293814
Nationalism is one helluva drug

>>3295840
ok make it a hundred gorillion why the fuck not? my initial estimate was 30-40 million as you can see in my posts. but I acknowledge the futility of assessing a precise number, and the irony of ascribing higher and higher body counts to serve political narratives.

>>3295846
while I'm certain that no such cock exists, in neither physical, nor metaphorical state, please do convey to me your findings
if it indeed proves to be as dire as you predict, I would like to have it removed as soon as possible
can't have anyone thinking I'm a kraut, after all
that just wouldn't do

>>3295824
>Banderist = nazi
Such association only exists in the mind of asshurt Pollacks and Russians. Bandera himself was persecuted by the nazis.

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>>3295870
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

>>3295836
Do you not understand? How does your uncle dissapearing in the night compare to walking into a camp packed full of skeletal jews?

>>3295876
What does this have to do with Bandera?

>>3295782
both were savage af, apparently 58% of soviet pows died while only 3.5% of english pows died. so the hate is understandable id say

>>3295880
It has to do with the fact that Ukrainians praise Nazis.

>>3295902
You posted a pic of Bandera associating it with nazis. Explain yourself nigger.

>>3295832
i bet you are a pole or a fat brit. the only things brits are good at is sucking their bastards child(america) cock. you were cucked by rothschilds and now your cucked by pakis what a shame

>>3295878
I said every single soldier would have been affected by the purges of them, but the majority of the had probably participated and the majority had at some point in the last 20 years felt the effects of starvation. There could have been no SJW style "pure rage at what they saw in the camps" none of them "were literally shaking". they were all just trying to survive one more day, much the same as the camp inmates had been

>>3295922
Why are you triggered by the fact Soviets and Americans shot your precious SS guards? They deserved it, if not worse.

>>3295931
I am not triggered at all by that. millions of people got shot, it was a war. what I am disputing is the introduction of political invective into an otherwise empirical historical discussion and the mindless repetition of tired mass media sales pitches gleaned from years of PBS documentaries and Hollywood movies. The soviet red army simply was not experiencing "pure rage at what they saw in the camps". These men were hardened to a degree that the people of this generation would not even recognize. They could not think of things in the terms of spoiled SJW's, they were not "literally shaking" they were survivors, nothing else. virtually all of them would have personally experienced and/or committed worse attrocities

>>3295946
t. butthurt kraut trying to equate German war crimes with Allies.

They didn't shoot them mechanically, they shot them because they fucking hated them (especially Soviets) and the image of half-dead Jews only fueled their hate.

Many Soviet PoWs perished in German camps in the same way Jews did.

>>3295866
> but I acknowledge the futility of assessing a precise number, and the irony of ascribing higher and higher body counts to serve political narratives.
we can estimate pretty well. there are huge amounts of documents, after all, and only more are going to come to light after the soviet archives have been opened. it's good you see that there are politics behind death tolls and much to be gained by distorting them upward or downward to one's own ends.

>>3295963
so based on your estimation, is the 30-40 million number correct? I honestly haven't studied any of the Soviet documents, I am basing it more on the Allied accounts which were in all likelihood highly biased

>>3295972
I think it was something like 20 million give or take, based on what i've read from snyder

>>3295961
In one sense it was very mechanical, everything proceeded as Stalin intended it to, but in the other sense, I agree that hatred had a big part in the motive. Hatred of the Germans for what the red army soldiers perceived had been done to them. Not any sort of SJW sympathy for the poor jewish victims of the camps. Indeed many of the red army soldiers would have been highly anti semitic themselves. These men were probably beyond any sympathy whatsoever at this point. There would have been very few jewish soldiers in the red army as they had been purged, but there would have still likely been many jews in the intelligence services. And there is ample evidnce that the jews in the intelligence services took awful revenge by torturing Germans. But that would have been much later. These were front line red army soldiers capturing german positions. There may have been some amount of jew instigation, but there just wouldnt have been very many jews on the front line. Even though the jews had a huge influence on the Bolshevik revolution, Stalin had successfully purged them from many areas of power by this time

>>3295990
like I said, I am not disputing the exact number, obviously some people with certain political agendas would try to shade it higher and some lower

>>3295993
Blah blah blah blah, more revisionism, more germans dindu nuffin, muh ebil soviets muh jews, etc.

Germans deserved everything that was coming to them. Everyting, if not more.

>>3296009
>Germans deserved everything that was coming to them.
revisionism on your part obviously. this is the basis for your position. it is an emotional maybe even a political position. my position is simply the facts, but that is just blah, blah, blah to you. deserves got nothing to do with history. that is the essence of revisionist history written by the winners for political purposes, not an empirical study

>>3296009
not that guy, but he didn't say anything about "muh jews". he said there were very few jews in the red army and that jews had few leadership positions as stalin (coincidentally or purposely, who knows) purged them in the 30s. It IS a fact that Jews were overrepresented in the intelligence service, which is why in Eastern Poland, a lot of Poles harbored huge hatred for jews (added onto traditional antisemitism) and collaborated in their extermination (at least initially) when the Nazis launched barbarossa.

>>3296019
Nope, the basis of my position is that Germans started shit, and got hit. Is that so hard to understand?
>my position is simply the facts
Whatever they fill your brain with on /pol/ is not facts. It's lies, miconceptions, and mental gymnastics.
>history written by the winners for political purposes
We actually German documents for writing history. In fact they're our main source when it comes to German war crimes.

You lost. Get over it.

>>3296035
>We actually German
*we actually use
>>3296023
He's throwing unrelated shit left and right.

>>3296041
i only responded based on the previous comment i haven't read teh whole conversation desu

>>3296035
>Nope, the basis of my position is that Germans started shit, and got hit. Is that so hard to understand?
yes i understand you perfectly and you are perfectly retarded. that is the classic position of revisionist history written by the victors. history does start with assessing blame and the find facts to support that conclusion. It is exactly the opposite. History studies facts and then tests hypothesis based on those facts forming theories only after the hypothesis have been rigorously tested.

>>3296050
>that is the classic position of revisionist history written by the victors
Nope, this is what it actually happened. Keep trying to equate Germans with Allies though, it's fun seeing so much mental gymnastics in one place.

>>3295832
germans are the niggers of europe

>>3296019
But you have presented no facts to support your claim that it was impossible for Soviet soldiers to have felt any anger at the crimes of Germany. Your argument is based on the speculation that all Soviet soldiers had been emotionally desensitized to an inhuman degree by the Stalinist purges and the war. You have shown no evidence to prove anything about their overall or mental and emotional state was in 1945.

>>3295568
>we
Who the fuck is "we" you dumb /pol/turd?

>>3296056
Allies good guys. Germans bad guys. I don't suppose you have any fact which support this conclusion other than some shit you watched on tv?

I have 30-40 million facts that say the Soviets weren't good guys. What do you have, beside retarded hybperbole? "germans started shit and got hit".

>>3295961
>the image of half-dead Jews only fueled their hate.
As if they cared of the identity of the victims. They had no clue what was going on here, and it was the very last of their concern at this point. Besides, jews weren't exactly popular in Soviet Union, it would have been like discovering a pile of gypsy corpses after years of a total war, imagine their shock...

>>3296070
bullshit. I just said two post earlier that they had hatred for germans and that that was a large part. the only thing I am still disputing is the original claim that the red army was "literally shaking" and were experiencing "pure rage at what they saw in the camps". because that is complete bullshit that the OP saw on some fucked up show on TV. I have presented several pages of evidence refuting that by now. specifically 30-40 million murders during the purges

>>3296073
>other than some shit you watched on tv?
You will find this conclusion in virtually every history book.

>>3296072
you and your mother faggot, tell her I said what up

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>>3296082
>specifically 30-40 million murders during the purges
>30-40 million
>purges

>>3296073
>Allies good guys. Germans bad guys
Yes, this is how it was. Was that so hard to understand?
>>3296077
Like i said, many Soviet PoWs suffered the same fate as Jews.

>>3296082
30-40 million murders during the purges
Less than 1 million people were killed during the Great Purge.

>>3295569
>he still thinks the average WW2 soldier was a fearless apathetic warrior who fought hundreds of battles
Despite being blue, this board is 18+ too, y'know?

>>3296084
"that the germans started shit and got hit". they may have that in the retarded textbooks you read in elementary school, I have a BA in history and although many books are biased toward the allied position, none of them are that retarded, I also have have read many that would dispute that conclusion

>>3295621
>30-40 million murdered by Stalin
Um, I don't think so, sweetie. >>3296083

>>3296096
>I also have have read many that would dispute that conclusion
Like?

>>3296096
>I have a BA in history
Then you should know better than being a Nazi Germany apologist.

>>3296082
So you would agree that the Soviets killed the camp guard in outbursts of anger as long as it is not assumed that they shook with rage?

>>3296091
i know and 6 gorillion were gassed multiple times at auschwitz. the imprecise numbers are often misrepresented by morons trying to advance political statements

>>3295852
>Schlomo
Do you have down syndrome?

>>3296099
ok then faggot how many? you tell me you were there

>>3296104
why should I know better because you say so?

>>3295729
>I would say
Based on what evidence?

>>3296104
theres this invention called a web browser. use it faggot. or if you haven't caught onto that one yet, a card catalog

>>3295790
Their website literally got removed from the internet today lmao

>>3296105
I dont even know what incident the faggot OP was referring to. I dont even know if any camp guards were killed in that alleged incident. Al I am disputing us the concept that the hardened red army soldiers were experiencing "pure rage at what they saw in the camps". that is simply SJW bullshit. they were not "literally shaking"

>>3296114
Figure it out yourself.
>>3296117
Sorry i don't believe everything i read on the internet.

>>3296109
681,692K-1.75 M

Where did you found 30-40M, you dildo?

>>3296125
you asked me retard, I don't need to do your research for you, believe whatever the fuck you want

>>3296122
>People meeting brutality of this scale do not react emotionally

You must be one sheltered child...

>>3296096
>I have a BA in history
Great, but I doubt your specialization was the history of Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia.

>>3296106
Today the total number of unnatural deaths during Stalin regime is estimated to be between 9-20 million. Even very anti-Soviet historians such as Conquest consider their older estimates to be exaggerated.

>i know and 6 gorillion were gassed multiple times at auschwitz
900.000-1.2 million were gassed and killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

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>>3296109
A couple of bad apples.

>>3296133
He believes >>3296095

>>3296122
They were pretty angry seeing mass graves.

>>3296126
that seems a touch light in my estimation. wikipedia says 5-10 million in the famines alone, plus the purges, plus the gulag. I am just using the 30-40 million number because that is the traditional allied position to go along with the 6 million in the death camps. Another guy just said that based on the soviet era docs it was more like 20 million ans that may well be true. But just for you, from now on I will claim 70 gorillion as the true number

>>3296143
why would they have been angry at mass graves? they had undoubtedly dug many themselves. I a sure that they hated the germans, but I doubt they had much sympathy for the camp victims

>>3296089
>many Soviet PoWs suffered the same fate as Jews
Assuming the comparison is relevant, how would they have knew? In fact what are you talking about?

>>3296095
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45th_Infantry_Division_(United_States)#World_War_II
Yeah they were complete angels, y'know.

>>3296142
they had not fought hundreds of battles. many of them were likely experienced soldiers, but every single one of them would have survived the purges, starvation, gulags, not to mention the german onslaught, they were all hardened to a degree that wimpy little faggots like yourself will hopefully never understand

>>3296148
>based on the soviet era docs it was more like 20 million
Based on Soviet documents it's less than 3 million (excluding the famine of 1932/1933). They are considered incomplete.

>>3296135
those numbers are not unreasonable. I am just saying that people are shading the numbers higher or lower based on political positions. so the precise numbers aren't the issue

>>3296148
You are getting emotional. Calm down, take a few breaths and rewrite your sentence so it would make sense.

>>3296135
the 6 million and 30-40 million numbers were very likely, biased estimates by the Americans, who were the victors, to advance their post war political positions

>>3296150
Why wouldn't they? They were still humans. Even many German soldiers experienced mental breakdown after killing in the East. That was one of the reasons why they decided to use the gas chambers.

>>3296160
no. you should respond to my argument instead of trying to pathologize my behavior. the argument is clear and cogent. dont waste everyone's time.

your 1.75 gorillion estimate is way light

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>>3296154
>but every single one of them would have survived the purges, starvation, gulags
Most of them did not, there was fear, but not acutal experience.

>wimpy little faggots like yourself will hopefully never understand
picrel

If you actually had to talk with people who lived in Eastern Europe during the time you would know that the "hardening" only makes people even less hesitant on killing Germans, including those without uniform.

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>mfw half the posts in this thread
is this board always this shit?

>>3296165
yeah that happens once and a while like american soldiers snapping and killing civilians in vietnam or afganistan. but it is not an SJW sense of moral outrage that causes it. As you said, it is a mental breakdown. it is not "pure rage at what they saw in the camps". it is a progressive desensitization which happens after witnessing and participating in atrocity after atrocity. When an american snaps and blows away some innocent mudslimes, it is not because he is morally outraged at what is being done to the poor victim mudslimes. it is because he has seen too much shit and all he knows is that he hates fucking mudslimes

>>3296173
>If you actually had to talk with people who lived in Eastern Europe during the time you would know that the "hardening" only makes people even less hesitant on killing Germans, including those without uniform.

this is my entire point. it was not "pure rage at what they saw in the camps" nice hat

>>3296176
Only when stormies like this butthurt kraut are around.

>>3296163
The 6 million (actually more like 5.5-6 million) are estimates made by historians. Mostly modern historians from various countries. Overall the number killed by the Nazis during the war is much higher than that (12-14 million for victims of war crimes alone).

6 million Jews
3 million Soviet POWs
1-2 million ethnic Poles (very low estimate, Polish historians estimate that 2.7 million ethnic Poles were killed during German occupation)
At least 500.000 people in Yugoslavia
1-2 million ethnic Ukrainians and Belorusians

Those are all estimates made by modern Western historians. Most historians from Eastern Europe consider them way too low.

>>3296188
being right is not being butthurt. if only I have gotten several of you indoctrinated faggots to think for yourselves and doubt the pablum being fed to you, I will retire happily

>>3296165
>Why wouldn't they?
Why would they have felt empathy for unknown foreign dead people seriously? Most of them were rustic peasants, not some sensible 21th century shitposter.

>That was one of the reasons why they decided to use the gas chambers.
>experience mental breakdown after killing
>find a more traumatic way to kill.
This joke has to stop.

>>3296195
Don't you think maybe you're the one who's indoctrinated?

>>3296188
>german men women and children deserved to die and be raped because they went to war against communists
yeah he sounds like the butthurt one, lrn2argue scrub

>>3296194
yes for practical purposes I have been using 6 million jews in the camps, and 30-40 million soviets in the purges, starvations and gulag because those are the traditional numbers even though they are very likely biased. If you care to go back through all the posts you can see that every single person has offered a different number. this is because they are simply offering numbers based on their political views and have not undertaken any kind of empirical study of the matter. One guy said he read a book based on soviet documents that said 20 million, so that is probably as good a number as ever. the numbers are largely irrelevant to my argument as long as we can agree a shitload of people in the millions died on each side.

my only original argument was that the alleged red army soldiers capturing an alleged german concentration camp did not allegedly murder the guards based on their experience of "pure rage at what they saw in the camps". if they did indeed murder said guards it was not due to moral outrage, my hypothesis is that red army soldiers in this time period would have been far too hardened to act out of moral outrage and would have likely experience and or committed multiple atrocities themselves

>>3296205
>murder women and children
>have your women and children murdered in return
I see nothing wrong with it. Germans drew the first blood.

>>3296204
no i don't. i have developed these theories over many years of study and have been highly critical of all the sources that I view

>>3296205
>responds seriously to retardedly obvious provocative posts
Indeed he does.

>>3296218
lel
>>3296214

>>3296199
>find a more traumatic way to kill.
I don't think you understand. Before the establishment of gas chambers the Jews were rounded up and shot. You need soldiers to do this.
Gas chambers needed only few guards. Most of the work was done by Jewish Sonderkommando.

>>3296218
but i am the one having fun faggot. isnt it kind of weird that this board is lit up like /pol/ usually is. these threads never get maxed out

>>3296214
so you support generalplan ost as long as they were attacked first?

>>3296217
Okay Mr. stormfag scholar. Good look in "redpilling" the internet.

>>3296214
doesn't matter who drew first blood, war is war, you kill the enemy or you get killed, whoever dies last wins

>>3296231
pretty successful so far today, all I am doing is making factual arguments and look at all the butthurt

>>3296213
And like I said, 30-40 million is a very exaggerated number.
>traditional numbers
Outdated numbers from before 1990s.

>my hypothesis is that red army soldiers in this time period would have been far too hardened to act out of moral outrage and would have likely experience and or committed multiple atrocities themselves
We don't know that. They weren't robots. From what I remember they were quite shocked seeing Majdanek (it was the only death camp not demolished by the Nazis).

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>>3296230
No. The Germans were set on literally exterminating civilian population in the east so their lands could be colonized by Germans. The Soviets mereley responded to this.
>>3296234
I agree :)

>>3296239
so you're just a sovietboo then? Doesn't that mean it's obviously you who's biased/indoctrinated?

>>3296237
You're not making factual arguments. You're throwing a tantrum over a single sentence in this post >>3294416 that made you lose your shit like the reverse SJW you are.

>>3296169
So you calmed down. good.

>your 1.75 gorillion estimate is way light
And opinions of Head of the Russian Archives, Russian ministry of interior, Conquest, Ellman and D'adkin

>>3296238
>And like I said, 30-40 million is a very exaggerated number.

I pretty much agree, but I dont have a better number, the estimates are all over the place, this might actually motivate me to go study. The best argument I have heard so far was the 20 million number, but like I said,I am just using the traditional number that most people would have heard. The precise number wasnt the point of my argument.

>>3296246
fugg XD

*And opinions of Head of the Russian Archives, Russian ministry of interior, Conquest, Ellman and D'adkin are wrong because...?

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>>3296242
Not a sovietboo either. Why are you stormies so obsessed with making ideological enemies out of other people who dislike your views? That's what made you lose your war anyway, because you threw the whole world against yourself with your autism.

>>3296238
>We don't know that. They weren't robots. From what I remember they were quite shocked seeing Majdanek (it was the only death camp not demolished by the Nazis).

i have seen the black and white movies of the americans capturing the camps and they did not appear "shocked" or "enraged" the Americans were also battle hardened but I would not expect them to be any where near as desensitized as the red army soldiers

>>3296255
because of your hypocritical opinions obviously, do you not read what you post?

>>3296243
no. i made one post about it and have been attacked non-stop for the last two hours. the only thing you retards don't understand, I find this shit very amusing. much better than tv. and all my arguments have been nothing but factual

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>>3296259
I did.
>>3296263
>and have been attacked non-stop for the last two hours
That's because you're a flaming retard.

>>3296256
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_liberation_reprisals

>>3296246
>And opinions of Head of the Russian Archives, Russian ministry of interior, Conquest, Ellman and D'adkin

is that a scholarly work? what was their estimate? I know one guy earlier cited a work by snyder which purportedly analyzed the soviet archival data at around 20 million. I have not researched the specific numbers, because that was never my argument. although now I am likely going to. but just from a face value perception, 1.75 million to me sounds the same as the people who say only 100,000 jews were killed in the german camps. Its possible, but usually the most extreme ends of the spectrum are not correct

>>3296227
I don't think you understand how such a process would work.
Guarding a camp of thousands of future victims. Selecting hundreds after hundreds, all day long, to be lead to the gas chamber. Handle their fear, their cry. Hearing their howls for dozens of minutes, all day long. Monitoring half dead slaves as they remove grinning corpses, one after one, for hours. Monitoring the cremation of entire families. For months.
Totally quiet and safe, nothing disturbing, at all...

>>3296183
>it was not "pure rage at what they saw in the camps"
Oh, so Americans in Dachau just decided to end 50 Jerries fot the lulz?

Also the argument wasn't just "it was not "pure rage at what they saw in the camps" but what they saw in the camps and the lands they liberated.

>>3296267
>That's because you're a flaming retard.
yes obviously a low IQ retard, based on my vocabulary which I have more than sufficiently demonstrated. post some more of your little pictures you weak minded ADHD faggot. have you ever made an argument that wasn't just a pathetic attempt to pathologize your opponent?

>>3296282
>fact that there were 30-40 million murdered by Stalin during the purges
Just to be clear I was talking about the purge, not total number of casulties

>is that a scholarly work?
yup

>>3296285
and the germans as the losers were forced to accept full moral responsibility for the war and you wonder why germans are into degenerate porn

>>3295832
Is it just me or is the Germans decline in quality consistent with the aesthetics of their flags.

>>3296288
yes it was war. they were there to kill people. I would actually be less surprised to see americans acting like SJWs out of supposed moral outrage because they had not witnessed any where near the horrors that red army soldiers had. many came straight form the farm or the urban slum and had never known starvation or genocide

>>3296295
>Just to be clear I was talking about the purge, not total number of casulties

well that was the problem. i wasn't and i clearly stated several times, I was talking about the purges, mass starvations, and gulags total. (Although the 30-40 million number is traditionally inclusive of war casualties also so that is my bad)

so if you are saying 1.75 million for the purges alone, I would say that is on the low side, but fairly reasonable, you could make a reasonable argument for that number

>>3296302
You got it switched. Americans were incomparably softer against Germans, than the Russians or even Brits.

Soviets marched through lands where Germans were exterminating people and were joined by people who lived in those lands. As a result you had army full of quite vengeful soldiers.

>>3296310
>i clearly stated several times
>>fact that there were 30-40 million murdered by Stalin during the purges
nope

>I would say that is on the low side
It's the other side actually. Did you make a mistake or would you be so kind and explain to us why are the mentioned authors wrong?

>>3296326
no thats what i have been arguing. the red army was totally desensitize. Thats why I said I could see the Americans acting more emotionally out of a sense of moral outrage, but in reality the Americans were pretty battle hardened by then also, but not as hard as the red army would have been.

>>3296332
for the eighth gorillianth time. I am not defending the 30-40 million number. I was just using it for arguments sake. an yes I did damn well state three or four times that it was to be inclusive of the purges, gulags and mass starvations, and now that you mention it add the war casualties too. you made the mistake of assuming I only was talking about the purges. look for yourself.

>>3296335
>>3296335
>The red army was totally desensitized
If I murdered your family for being subhumans, how would you react? By getting mad and attacking me or would you be totally desensitized and ignore that? You seem to misunderstand bassic human emotions.

>>3296359
>You seem to misunderstand bassic human emotions.
Because he may suffer from a disorder called autism.

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>>3296366
I didn't asked for a cheerleader

>>3296374
Doesn't matter, tovarish.

>>3293779

There is no mention about physical elimination in the Generalplan Ost, let alone of 50-60% of Russians

>>3293779
Neither. It was C*mmunist propaganda.

>>3296453
>Germans just murdered every 4th person on Belarus by accident

>>3296462
Partisan warfare is a vicious cycle.

>>3295990
>Snyder
Fuck off with that hack

>>3296107
>oy vey I've been found out

>>3296462
>every 4th person
Those numbers are literally 60 gorillion tier, fabricated by the communists. Furthermore:
>most of the actual atrocities in Belarus like Khatyn were committed by the Ukrainische Hilfspolizei and were a part of anti-partisan operations
>even if 100% of Belarusians were somehow genocided it would be completely unrelated to GP Ost which was never formally approved and put into action

>>3296508
>Those numbers are literally 60 gorillion tier, fabricated by the communists.
>most of the actual atrocities in Belarus like Khatyn were committed by the Ukrainische Hilfspolizei and were a part of anti-partisan operations
Prove it.

>>3296498
>OP criticizes g*rmanic plans of exterminating slavs after exterminating jews
>anon replies justifying the extermination of slavs
>you sperg out and call this anon a jew instead of a g*rm
I'll ask again, do you have down syndrome?

>>3296511
You made that outrageous claim first, it's on you.

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>>3296511
The actual perpetrators of the massacre were sentenced for it by the Soviets and they were Ukrainian auxiliary units.

>>3296516
My "outrageous claim" is an accepted historical estimate, see: Vadim Erlikman. Poteri narodonaseleniia v XX veke : spravochnik.

>>3296359
but you think there was some qualititave difference between the Nazis and the Red Army. That the Red Army was acting out of some sense of moral justice to avenge the poor jewish victims. they weren't the red army had committed just as many attrocities as the Nazis if not more. The Red Army was trying to survive day to day not much unlike the camp inmates. Many of them would have been anti-semtic themselves. They may have hated the germans, but they wouldn't have had much sympathy for the jews. The only ones that could have afforded a sense of moral outrage were the americans, and even they were pretty battle hardened by this time

>>3296525
I'm not talking about Khatyn', it was just one of hundreds settlements razed by Nazis.

>>3296462
Atrocities in Belarus were almost always a response to partisans fucking shit up. German unit got blown up somewhere, so a civilian village in the area got burned down in order to demoralize the partisans. I mean we can argue that it wasn't "fair" (it was fucking war), but it wasn't a targeted ethnic genocide.

>>3296535
>That the Red Army was acting out of some sense of moral justice to avenge the poor jewish victims
>Many of them would have been anti-semtic themselves
Where was I talking about Jews?

>The red army had committed just as many attrocities as the Nazis if not more
>The Red Army was trying to survive day to day not much unlike the camp inmates.
Incorrect.

>>3296537
Partisan cleanup operations were almost always in handz in Einsatzgruppen and Auxiliary policemen who more often than not belonged to some local ethnicity, because they knew the area. That's what happened in Yugoslavia and Lithuania as well.

>>3296537
did they raze entire cities killing every last civilian, like the americans? did they starve entire populations by the millions like the soviets and chineese? you can hate the germans all you want, they killed plenty, but dont fool yourself that germans were bad guys, allies were good guys like some gay hollywood movie. it was a war, there was more than enough blood to go around. the germans and japanese just had to bear the entire moral burden because they were the losers. why do you think german porn is so degenerate?

>>3296359
>If I murdered your family for being subhumans
who were the subhumans you were referring to then? the germans obviously did kill others than jews, but it is the same principle. the red army were not morally pure social justice warriors, they were every bit as bad as the nazis

>>3296514
Because it's always almost a kike who pretends to be German and tries his best to create hostility between Germans and Slavs. Karl Marx and Theodor Herzl are the most obvious examples, but there have been many like them. I've noticed it's the "anti-racists" who peddle the slavshit untermensch meme far more than actual national socialist.

>>3296542
The casulties are waaay too high for it to be "just partisans", partisans were everywhere in Eastern Europe. There were clearly other forces at play that forced so many people to take up arms.

>>3296545
Sometimes, but 36th Waffen Grenadier division of SS was composed mainly of Germans.

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Vae Victis
Germans declared war on all the major power,get fucked and split in half
now they get cucked and become a dumping group for shitskins
next time don't lose a war,or two wars

>>3296560
the northern slavs (R1a y-dna haplogroup) and germans (R1b y-dna haplogroup) have been battling for thousands of years. there has always been animosity as well as miscegenation but the communists and jews certainly do take advantage of it

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Why do storms get so easily triggered?

>>3296566
they didn't declare war, the allies declared war on them, but correct, they were the losers and thats what the losers get, but as long as they still exist you know they are going to rise again, so either give up on the hate or be doomed to repeat the cycle

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>>3296575
>or be doomed to repeat the cycle
Another cycle of wiping the floor with Krauts? Bring it on

>>3296551
>did they raze entire cities
>did they starve entire populations by the millions like the soviets and chineese?
yup

> like the americans?
When did Burgers did that?

>but dont fool yourself that germans were bad guys
How exactely were Nazis not the baddies? If there were baddies in 20th century European history then it's clearly them.

>why do you think german porn is so degenerate?
What the fuck are you flying on?

>>3296556
>they were every bit as bad as the nazis
How many innocent Germans did Soviets killed? How many innocents Russians did Germans killed? Who killed more people in Poland? Who had literal death camps? Who had worse record of treating POWs?

>>3296575
***crickets***, not very good bait my friend, you dont even know what your fishing for

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Dead nazi a day keeps the stormie away

>>3296562
Not just sometimes, but practically always. Einsatzgruppen were composed of local people, typically nationalists or anti-communists, because they knew the terrain, knew the local population, could speak the language, knew the customs, etc. It would be pointless to give anti-partisan tasks to some Germans who knew nothing about the local villages. Your typical anti-partisan massacre had this pattern:
>German unit gets blown up
>Orpo tasks some local Einsatzgruppen to sniff out the partisans
>(Belarusian, Ukrainian) units go village to village and literally kill, loot and burn everything they see
It's not a coincidence that almost every one of those "nazi" grandpas extradited for war crimes over the past two decades had some Ukrainian or Polish sounding surname. It wasn't a targeted ethnic genocide. This can be easily documented by the fact that in allied Slavic nations where partisan activity wasn't causing chaos, this sort of shit simply never happened and they were treated as regular allies. Labeling it as ethnic cleansing is literal Soviet propaganda to prevent Soviet population from having nationalist and anti-communist sentiments, both during and after the war, and portray the Red Army as unquestionable saviors from genocide.

>>3296570
Slavs and Germans have been historical allies more often than enemies. And Poles like to meme a lot about the Teutonic Knights being "anti-Slavic" for example, not even aware that the northern crusades were funded by a Bohemian (Slavic) king. Koenigsberg was even named in his honor.

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>>3296580
as you wish

>>3296594
>Not just sometimes, but practically always
I know they often consisted of criminals and sometimes even Gypsies, but this is new to me. Got anything to back it up with?

>>3296583
>How many innocent Germans did Soviets killed? How many innocents Russians did Germans killed? Who killed more people in Poland? Who had literal death camps? Who had worse record of treating POWs?

stalin sent a second wave of criminals and mongols from the gulag, specifically to rape, tortue and terrorize the germans into submission. there are incidents of torture at the hands of the soviet intelligence service every bit as bad as those alleged in the death camps. but what the red army did to germany was nothing in comparison to what stalin did to his own people

>>3296583
>What the fuck are you flying on?
in other words, you can't attack my argument so you pathologize my behavior and characterize me as crazy. weak

>>3296583
>How exactely were Nazis not the baddies? If there were baddies in 20th century European history then it's clearly them.
the nazis were very bad. the soviets were very bad. the chineese were very bad. the japanese were very bad. the americans were decadent and weak and got sucked into being very bad also

>>3296583
>When did Burgers did that?
you never heard of dresden, nagasaki, hiroshima?

>>3296583
>>did they raze entire cities
>>did they starve entire populations by the millions like the soviets and chineese?
>yup
the germans did a pretty good number on stalingrad because they were fighting the actual battle in the middle of the city. other than that, they never really razed any cities to the ground. they had the opportunity to use unrestricted bombing on the english at the beginning of the war when they had air superiority, but hitler was too squeamish. it probably cost them the war. if he would have capture the retreating army at dunkirk, leveled london followed by a partroop invasion. war over. but he had a delusion that he could negotiate an alliance with england

>>3296601
>criminals and gypsies
Are you talking about the Dirlewanger brigade? They were pretty much a meme, they did some terrifying shit during the quenching of the Warsaw uprising, so they became an easy scapegoat for every atrocity that happened when they were in the area. Most of the anti-partisan operations were in the hands of Weißruthenische/Ukrainische Hilfspolizei (USSR), Arajs Kommando (the Baltics), POHG (Slovakia), all local units.
Also what's interesting is that the high command people ordering the cleanup of Warsaw were both ethnically Slavic (Odilo Globocnik and Erich von dem Bach Zelewski).

>>3296594
Einsatzgruppen were often assisted by the locals but they were Germans.

>Polish sounding surname
A lot of Germans living in the East had Polish sounding surname. Von dem Bach-Zelewski was responsible for crushing the Warsaw uprising.
You're just a lying piece of shit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen_trial
Where are those Ukrainian or Polish sounding surnames?

>>3296603
>stalin sent a second wave of criminals and mongols from the gulag, specifically to rape, tortue and terrorize the germans into submission.
Yet they did less damage than Hitler's goons, isn't that interesting?

>>3296606
Dude, you literally brought up German "gegenereta porno" while defending Nazi warcrimes. If that's not pathologic, then I don't know what is.

>>3296614
>Two nukes and one ordinary strategic bombing
>Razed city and killed every single civilian
More innocent people died during the siege of Leningrad than in these three combined.

>>3296623
> leveled london followed by a partroop invasion
bait or serious? Sounds like a bait.

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>>3296577
kek
nice empty threats Hans
deal with your shitskins infestation first than you can make boasts

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>Nearly all the wartime documentation on Generalplan Ost was deliberately destroyed shortly before Germany's defeat in May 1945.[6][7] Thus, no complete set of originals have ever been found after the war, among the documents stored in German archives. Apart from Ehlich's testimony, there are several documents which refer to this plan or are supplements to it. Although no copies of the actual full proposal have survived, most of the plan's essential elements have been reconstructed from related memos, abstracts and other documents.[8]

>>3296623
They started the war by razing Wieluń to the ground. They also planned to completely destroy Warsaw after the uprising.

>>3296594
I dont know if you could say allies. I suppose at times they would be on the same side facing invaders from the west, but their entire history since the bronze age has been pretty much internecine warfare amongst themselves as often as against each other, but there is real historical emnity, but as I said also, a fair amount of miscegenation, so very many people in elbe and oder river regions and eastward through bohemia, poland and hungary have both north slavic and german blood

>>3296643
The bombing of Wieluń refers to air raids on the Polish town of Wieluń by Nazi Germany's Luftwaffe (air force) on 1 September 1939. The Luftwaffe started bombing Wieluń at 04:40, five minutes before the shelling of Westerplatte, which has traditionally been considered the beginning of World War II. The air raid on the town was one of the first aerial bombings of the war.[1] It killed an estimated 1,300 civilians

hardly comparable to dresden

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>>3296583
>When did Burgers did that?
This is a picture of Caen, one of the numerous French cities wiped out by the Americans. For reasons... Casualties: "unknown".
Get an education please.

>>3296649
>hardly comparable to dresden
Literally only difference is capability of Allied air-force at the end of war and Axis airforce at the start of it.

>>3296645
i should say, they may have at times been on the same side facing invader from the east, such as the arabs, turks, mongols, etc. (i mistyped west, I meant east)

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>>3296653
>At least two civilian shelters were hit and the University of Caen was destroyed, 350 people being killed by the raid and the fighting in Caen on 8 July
>Before the invasion, Caen had a population of 60,000 people
>350=60 0000
>Get an education

>>3296649
In Warsaw they killed 150.000-200.000 civilians - 6-8 times more than the allies in Dresden.

>>3296656
1300 vs. 600000? if they had wanted to raze it, the poles were defenseless, they didnt even need air power, they could have leveled with artillery, but they easily had enough air power, the wern't even engaged on any other fronts yet

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They sowed the wind...

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...and reaped the whirlwind

>>3296668
>600 000
You mean Dresden or the whole allied air war?

>if they had wanted to raze it, they could have leveled with artillery
Arty was not in reach and they advanced so fast it wasn't needed.

>>3296635
>names of high commanders = names of the actual perpetrators
Surely you can't be this dumb. OUN in Ukraine practically got drafted into Einsatzgruppen as a whole.

>>3296645
>Anti-Napoleon coalitions
>Holy Alliance (Russia-Austria-Prussia)
>Austro-Turkish wars
>Czech crusaders and HRE troops
You could continue all day. "Eternal antagonism of the Germans and the Slavs" is a meme invented by butthurt Polish nationalists in the early 19th century, and adopted by the Russian tsardom in the 1880s.

>>3296667
I dont have any idea where you are getting that figure, are you claiming that is how many were shipped to the camps, but according to wikipedia:

Within the first two to four months following the bombings, the acute effects of the atomic bombings had killed 90,000–146,000 people in Hiroshima and 39,000–80,000 in Nagasaki; roughly half of the deaths in each city occurred on the first day. During the following months, large numbers died from the effect of burns, radiation sickness, and other injuries, compounded by illness and malnutrition. In both cities, most of the dead were civilians, although Hiroshima had a sizable military garrison.

so clearly comparable even if your claims are true, again, not claiming nazis to be innocent, just saying plenty of blood to go around

>>3296668
>600.000
Where did you get this number from? All allied air raids killed around 400.000 people in Germany. Germans killed 5.7 million Poles (including Polish Jews).

>>3296686
>counting Jews as Poles

>>3296683
>OUN in Ukraine practically got drafted into Einsatzgruppen as a whole.
Source? I'm not sure you know what Einsatzgruppen were. Because local collaborators were not considered part of Einsatzgruppen.

>>3296685
I was talking about Dresden (25.000 killed).

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>>3296663
>350
The lowest estimations are around 3500. By friendly historians of course.

This is a picture of Le havre, one of the numerous French cities wiped out by the Americans. For reasons... Casualties: "unknown".

You still deny that Americans did nothing? I can continue you know.
Get an education please.

>>3296683
>>Anti-Napoleon coalitions
>>Holy Alliance (Russia-Austria-Prussia)
>>Austro-Turkish wars
>>Czech crusaders and HRE troops

you could continue all day also, but I said i somewhat agree with you, it is just not as simple as you are making it sound. you sound like you are trying to push some pan-indo european statement, and all I am saying is that the truth is alot more nuanced. there were certainly historical antagonisms as well as historical cooperation, and the antoganisms were certainly exploited by the jews and communists

>>3296689
They were Polish citizens. Why shouldn't I count them as Polish citizens?

>>3296696
yes, dresden was also pretty bad, but the original post you responded to said dresden, hiroshima and nagasaki. the reason these three are significant is that they are instances where the allies intentionally inflicted civilian casualties in order to win by attrition. again, all i am saying is there was plenty of blood to go around and no innocents

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>>3296699
>alternating between ethnicity and citizenship status when it benefits you

>>3296712
wow those stormfags are sure getting "triggered" by your insightful little pictures, good job

>>3296709
Well, like someone said, more people died in Leningrad alone. More German civilians were killed by their own government than by the allies.

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Brave ubermench celebrating victory over subhuman old man...

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And later on, getting more familiar with the whole term "blood and soil"

>>3296715
They were Polish citizens. But okay, according to IPN 2.7 million ethnic Poles died as a result of German occupation.

>>3296698
I said they were more often allies than they were enemies, which is true.

>>3296692
>Because local collaborators were not considered part of Einsatzgruppen.
Is everyone on /his/ this uneducated? Ukrainische Hilfspolizei was directly under Einsatzgruppe C command.

>>3296697
>The lowest estimations are around 3500
Source? I have a feeling you are lying again.

>You still deny that Americans did nothing?
No you utter moron, I am addresing your claim that "Americans razed entire cities and murdered every single one of their citizens". By moving goalposts you are just continuing to prove yourself wrong.

>Le havre
>5000/160000
That's smaller fraction than the fucking Wielun.

>>3296699
Polish citizen =/= Pole.

>>3295849
Citation needed

>>3296720
>More German civilians were killed by their own government than by the allies
I doubt that is true, but you are correct that the germans suffered relatively light casualties compared to the soviets and eastern europeans, but while the germans certainly killed millions, the highest casualties from this era were from stalin killing his own people in the tens of millions. again, nazis were bad guys, soviets were bad guys, americans while taking the least amount of lives, were not innocent

>>3295569

Okay edgelord

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>>3296728
They were not considered part of the Einsatzgruppe C.

>>3296728
>I said they were more often allies than they were enemies, which is true
and they certainly can be allies today. western europeans and northern slavs have more in common than they have differences, they really should be allies against islam, china, etc

>>3296744
>the highest casualties from this era were from stalin killing his own people in the tens of millions
Again with these outdated numbers. Stalin and the Nazis killed roughly the same amount of people. Except the Nazis did it in 5 years while Stalin in 25 years.

>>3296638
>More innocent people died during the siege of Leningrad than in these three combined.

The allies were bombing civilians simply to kill civilians and reducde moral, but this is okay because good guys.

>>3296757
The nukes were and they did the job. One might even apply the bayonet paradox and say they actually saved lives by averting land invasion of Japan.

Dresden was done on Russian demand to prevent German counterattack against overextended spearheads of the RA.

>>3296756
nah, the numbers are all over the place. the traditional numbers were always that hitler killed 6 gorillion jews and 6 gorillion others and stalin killed 30-40 gorillion. (although you are correct that hitler did it in a much shorter time) and dont forget Mao killed 45 gorillion. There has been post soviet scholarship that says alot less maybe 20 million, but on the other hand no one has critically looked at the german numbers because of muh holocaust denial so those could very well be lower also. all i conclude is they both killed millions. stalin killed at least twice as many but as you pointed out hitler did his in a shorter time period.

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>>3296729
>your claim that "Americans razed entire cities and murdered every single one of their citizens"
I never said that. I just replied to >>3296583
Caen, as Le Havre and other cities, was entirely razed by the Americans, whatever the casualties. It's like that and saying otherwise is at best a mistake, if not a lie.

>>3296769
>Hitler only killed people duting the Holocaust
>Holocaust numbers were reduced
Both wrong, try again.

>>3296775
Well, then you should've read the entire chain, before trying to be a smartass.

>>3296764
The nukes were and they did the job. One might even apply the bayonet paradox and say they actually saved lives by averting land invasion of Japan.
undoubtedly they did, you just can't say that the americans were totally innocent and acting out of a concern for social justice. it was war, the americans let themselves get sucked into it and actually reaped the benefit of the victory. due to their position they were just able to have the least blood on their hands, but they were down in the mud with everyone else

>>3296779
I am a better smartass than you if you still deny the immense destructions commited by the Americans.
>5000 French civilians in one night is nothing
You're a hectic moron.

>>3296779
>Both wrong, try again.
no thank you, i dont need to try again. that is not even an argument, that is some kind of weak invitation or attempt at irony, which you have stated no factual basis i support of. you are apparently saying that the soviet numbers can be critically examined but the german numbers are sacred and not subject to critical examination

>>3296769
>no one has critically looked at the german numbers because of muh holocaust denial so those could very well be lower also
That's completely wrong. It's one of the most studied and researched subject. Especially when it comes to Jewish victims.

>Stalin killed 30-40 million
>There has been post soviet scholarship that says alot less maybe 20 million
Even 20 million seems to be an exaggeration. Most historians agree that Stalin killed less people than we thought. They base their estimates on Soviet documents.
15-20 million is today considered the higher estimate (it's based on models and demography studies).

>>3295772

>because the wehrmacht was generally well behaved and honourable

More so than fucking who?

Ill wait for a source.

>>3296799
>Especially when it comes to Jewish victims.
obviously no bias there, and certainly no hysterical denunciations of anyone who comes up with a different conclusion

>>3296786
>undoubtedly they did, you just can't say that the americans were totally innocent and acting out of a concern for social justice
No one said they did. But it wasn't pure hatred without purpose like when Nazis razed Warsaw.

>but they were down in the mud with everyone else
What do you mean by this? They commited way less warcrimes than Japanese, Soviets or Germans.

>>3296793
>if you still deny the immense destructions commited by the Americans
Work on your working comprehension, idiot. I am addressing the claim that Burgers "razed cities to ground ", you are just moving goalpost to area "Burgers bombed cities like everyone else did"

>>3296796
Your fail to realize that the "critical examination" of Soviet data comes from the fact historians have access to Soviet archive, data on Holocaust are not likely to change because we have access to German documents and full cooperation of German gov. since the end of war.

Claiming that the number of dead in Holocaust wasn't subjected to critical examination is just using your feelings as an argument.

>>3296811
Please tell me about "hysterical denunciations" of Timothy Snyder, when he claimed that Holocaust only killed 5.4M Jews

>>3296799
>Even 20 million seems to be an exaggeration
the only difference between you and me is this. we both have no problem doubting this statement and applying critical analysis of the empirical data to it. but only one of us refuses to apply critical analysis to the claims regarding the german numbers, for whatever reason. It seems to be a sacred cow for you, and if that is your religion, that is cool, i can at least understand that and wont fault you for your faith, but if you are trying to claim that you are critically analyzing the available data, you are fooling yourself. enjoy your religion, you don't have to prove anything to anyone. the world can be 7000 years old also, if that is what someone truly believes because the universe is inherently irrational, just stop pretending you are rationalizing it

>>3296814
>No one said they did. But it wasn't pure hatred without purpose like when Nazis razed Warsaw.
it wasnt pure hatred, it was mostly fear of what stalin was going to do to them if they didnt do it first. and quite justifiably so. there was also considerable hatred on both sides, but more so fear

>>3296829
You're not analyzing any data. You just posted some random number allegedly killed by Stalin (30-40 million) and that's it.

>>3296814
>>but they were down in the mud with everyone else
you didnt read my post. that is what i said. the americans had the least amount of blood on their hands due to their position, but they were by no means innocent, they were the ones who benefitted most from the carnage being the ultimate victors

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>>3296833
>it wasnt pure hatred, it was mostly fear of what stalin was going to do to them if they didnt do it first
>Quick Hans! We have to kill those Pollacks and raze their historical monuments, so that Stalin won't hurt them!

This is top tier comedy

>>3296833
>it wasnt pure hatred, it was mostly fear of what stalin was going to do to them if they didnt do it first
What are you talking about?

>>3296827
there is this invention called a web browse go nuts. i already know there were hysterical denunciations, i dont have to prove it, you do

>>3296844
It's your claim, you find evidence for it.

>>3296839
>This is top tier comedy
so you think the poles being murdered is comedy? good for you. but as far as an argument you are weak. you cannot attack the argument so you pathologize the behavior calling it comedy.

if you had any historical knowledge whatsoever you would know that Stalin was receiving materials from the americans and massing his forces to strike but was not prepared yet. if hitler hadnt attacked first stalin would have

>>3296842
the germans were deathly afraid of the horrors of soviet communism, that is the whole reason the nazis came to power

>>3296836
that was the traditional number that was quoted by western academia for years. it was opened up to critical examination after the end of the cold war. not claiming to be an expert, that is just what it is. I also don't have to be an expert to know that the 6 gorillian number has never been open to critical examination

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>>3296852
You are literally insane. First claiming that Nazis razed Warsaw in order to save Poles from advancing Russian armies and now bringing up shit (
>if you had any historical knowledge whatsoever you would know that Stalin was receiving materials from the americans and massing his forces to strike but was not prepared yet. if hitler hadnt attacked first stalin would have
) that has no relationg to the argument.

>>3296851
you are the one asking for evidence. i dont care because i already know. that is a pretty specific scholarly work, so it might take a little effort, but I am certain you can find criticism. it is a self evident fact. so, no thank you. if you care, look it up yourself

>>3296865
>You are literally insane
again, you cant attack the argument or even reason very well for yourself, so you have to patholgize the behavior by saying I am insane.