Thread replies: 219
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Thread images: 54
is this homestuck?
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>>3287975
>God tier:
Anarcho-Individualism
Anarcho-Pacifism
>Good Tier:
Anarcho-Mutualism
Anarcho-Syndicalism
>Meh Tier:
Green Anarchism
Anarcho-Primitivism
>Absolute Shit Tier
Anarcho-"Retards who don't realize that strong central economic planning can't exist without an authoritarian state"-Communism
Anarcho-"Retards who don't realize that strong central economic planning can't exist without an authoritarian state but also like wages"-Collectivism
Anarcha-"Retards who claim to want equality yet use "male" and "masculine" as derogatory insults for anything they don't like"-Feminism
Queer "Retards who die off in one generation because they didn't think this through"-Anarchism
Nothing compares to pic related though.
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Can someone explain to me why Anarcho-feminism and "Queer" Anarchism even fucking exist as terms? How the fuck are they any different from any other brand of anarchism?
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Where the fuck is ancap? Why are only hugbox leftyfaggot anarchism represented?
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>>3287975
>Anarcho anything
Gulag fodder
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>>3288094
green anarcho-mutalism is this best, it takes care of negative externalities. Revolutionary syndicalism and counter economics are both good tactics
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>>3288129
>ancap
this thread is about anarchism you idiot
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>>3288129
>ancap
Not real anarchism(TM)
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>>3288097
Anarcha-Feminism and Queer-Anarchism are the two dumbest schools of anarchy (even worse than Anarcho-Monarchism). You know how feminists have an annoying habot of calling anything they don't like "male-voiced" or "phallo-centric"? It's basically that, but with statism. They think:
>male=oppressive
>state=oppressive
>therefore, male=state
Queer anarchists are the same way, just replace male with straight. Honestly, its weird that most anarchists reject prominent schools of anarchism like ancapism, yet accept crap like this.
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>>3288094
burgermemes are terrible.
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Anarchotheism is the only good anarchism.
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>>3288148
Coz while you can argue anfem and an queer are perversion of anarchism's ideal and philosophical basis (but it really like pic related) ancaps are the complete inversion of it
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>>3288148
The scary thing is those beings exist
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>>3288147
>>3288143
>no rulers in society!
>you can't own businesses tho because I say so
Why are anarchotards so stupid?
Don't call me an ancap, ananything is high school tier nonsense, but at least ancapitalism would just be feudalism which we already know works. What the fuck is 'green anarchism', how the hell would it be enforced?
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>>3288182
>enforced
>works
Fuck off to reddit
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>>3288182
>you can't own businesses tho because I say so
what workers self management and trade are key part of most anarchism
>What the fuck is 'green anarchism'
ecologically sound anarchism.
>how the hell would it be enforced?
it doesn't need to be enforced t function mutual cooperation and localized optimization of resources and development under the guiding hand of the lie sciences to keep from fucking everything up.
im too tired to explain this to someone with no uunderstanding of tthe subject
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>>3288191
Feudalism survived for one thousand years, every attempt at an anarchist society has been an embarressing flop.
I'll give them credit that they haven't caused the deaths of millions of people the way communism did, they actually have had to have stood up for more than a few years on their own for that to happen.
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>>3288182
>no rulers in society!
Ownership of capital leads to the formation of an elite class. But then again you admit than ancapism will devolve into feudalism, which may "work" but isn't anarchist at all.
>you can't own businesses tho because I say so
You can own a business in proportion to your labor contribution, and likewise profit from your labor. What you can't do is claim an entitlement to the fruits of others labor simply on the basis of "owning" property without making an ongoing investment of labor.
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>>3288207
>it survived so its good
Fuck off back to r*ddit
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Mainstream "anarchism" is just a really voluntarist, decentralized, and demotist government. Not an absence of government
Main issue with all forms of anarchism is that anarchy has no way of enforcing itself, its just creating a vacuum for power to fill
"Unlimited liberty leads to unlimited despotism"
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>>3287975
>he doesn't follow anarcho-judaism
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>>3287975
>No anarcho-transhumanism
Shit tier chart
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>>3288233
You stratificationists are so gullible. No, you won’t accept egalitarianism outright, but we’ll keep feeding you small doses of liberal democracy until you will finally wake up & find that you already have egalitarianism.
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>>3288172
This is peak LARP. Moving away from class struggle has been the downfall of the left.
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>>3288301
I don't have one but you can read about the judaism one here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_anarchism
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>>3287975
For what it's worth, I thought the joke was funny, OP.
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>>3288214
>pizza is un-healthier for you than ambrosia
Too bad the latter doesn't and can't ever exist.
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>>3288337
>STEMsperg memes
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>>3288195
>ecologically sound anarchism.
So, your meme ideology mixed with your pet fad social problem?
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>>3288521
Do you not know what ecology is?
It's not 'muh oshuns muhfugguh'
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>>3288521
>So, your meme ideology mixed with your pet fad social problem?
see
>im too tired to explain this to someone with no uunderstanding of tthe subject
although i have just woke from a good sleep. I still don't want to talk to you. study ecology, study anarchist economics.
>>>3288575
true but
>muh oshuns muhfugguh
is a natural result of ecology and reason. Free life.
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>>3288233
>Mainstream "anarchism" is just a really voluntarist, decentralized, and demotist government. Not an absence of government
this is true, it is the state and hierarchical authority we seek to destroy.
> anarchy has no way of enforcing itself
it doesn't enforce itself as anarchism functions properly in modality. People self govern based around shared libertarian and equality values. As far for a "power vacuum" there is no reason for this to exist unless the social system is destabilized. How can this be prevented? Well first the boundaries that stability emerges from must be in place. To take a concept from the field of synergetics as a slogan, order follows from parameters. Some major boundaries that can made to prevent power from accumulating are the expelling of capital[including private property(land that can be bought and sold)] from economies. This prevents people from being able to profit from work they did not do/ exploit land through financial means and along with workers self management, syndicalism, and unmentioned intricacies this makes hierarchical business entities impossible.
Another problem with stability in socio-ecological systems is entropy(undirected economic unrest, inter-group strife, foreign interference, ecological catastrophe(now unavoidable, but manageable). My solution, applying what i know from systems/network theory and dynamics is to organize or selves in a decentralized way where more or less local economies are compartmentalized in their functioning but remain connected through trade, mutual action, scientific collaboration, media and agents freely traveling between them, all of this is easy in the age of information. the trick is not to become overly connected and homogenized like what happened to the world with the global consumer economy. No capitalism and actually free markets with compartmentalized government self governed by the people make this a non issue, as systems emerge like this nature//
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Anarcho-monarchism isn't even represented, shit chart. Memiest anarcho ideology, and yet the most sound out of all of them.
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>>3289740
>e, as systems emerge like this nature/
/ You dont see hierarchical command structures form from the interactions of living agents(unless they are synthesized sensu: the construction of human social systems) because it doesn't work like that, they are enslaved to each other.
there are 'hierarchies' in nature but that is a completely different sense concerning the scaling up of natural processes through increased complexity. Their is no authoritarian chain of command, their is emergent properties upwards and downwards causation multiple realizability. The actors are autonomous only constrained by their boundaries, which are real boundaries not arbitrarily drawn by authority.
see http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/419172 for example
id be happy to explain managing externalities with ecology if anyone is interested. it can be said i am somewhat of a libertarian Luddite technocrat.
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>>3288167
Actually, I'd argue that ancapism is closer to original anarchism than ancom is.
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>not being an anarcho-fascist
come on guys
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>>3289760
Just call it integralism.
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>>3288521
does this seem like a pet fad social problem?
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com.sci-hub.io/doi/10.1111/j.1461-0248.2010.01558.x/full
I hope you realize that you are an illiterate fuck and submit to your anarchist intellectual superiors
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>>3288207
feuadlisum is realy just the result of overdeveloped tribalism. And futher to the point its not about what has worked in the past, so far everything has been either terribly oppressive or completely abysmal, the industrialized world is in many ways seeing a new trend of consumptive-sedative practices which I think have some repercussions that we don't totally understand right now. the point of political theory and discussing things like anarchism and communism and fascism and blah blahb fucking idk Islamism or something is to argue for what needs to be done to improve the situation moving forward.
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>>3288195
calling yourself tired has no bearing on this discussion, if you can't explain then keep your mouth shut. The problem is that "ecological anarchism" DOES need enforcing... if someone dumps his toxic waste in the river, who's going to stop him?
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You forgot to put Anarcho-Gnosticism
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>>3288129
Ancaps are statists.
Private Property and Propertarianism are inherently vile and predatory.
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>>3290165
>calling yourself tired has no bearing on this discussion, if you can't explain then keep your mouth shut.
Being tired isn't why I decided to ignore you, that was a result of you being an idiot.
First of all nobody would do that because its wouldn't save them any money. Things like that are taken care of through mutual cooperation.
There being no state arbitrarily imposing rule of law doesn't mean that there will not be social repercussions for misbehavior. What do you think people would just get away with whatever they want? No, lmao. The rule is do whatever you want as long as you aren't hurting the world around you. I'm sure they would get brutalized and exiled. You can still have a judicial susystem without legislation , as long as it operates based on a logical system of equality and liberty, and has no authority to pass governing laws or infringe on natural rights.
All your problems with anarchism have to do with the fact that you are too stupidvUninformed to imagine how it would work.
>ecological anarchism doesn't work
You don't even know what it is, pull your head out of your ass. You can see>>3289740
>>3289797
Aswell it does not need enforcement, the science of ecology is used to as a paradigm for devolpment, the allocation of resources and production. It is used as a fiduciary to proactively keep things from being fucked up. It requires no authority or enforcement, only science and mutual cooperation. If someone isn't into mutual cooperation they will be promptly booted out for their selfish infringement on the liberty of the living world(including humans).
For example if someone was in a position to produce toxic waste it would be taken care to be ecologically sound before it was allowed. This is to take care of negative externalities in market anarchist economics.
It's a teleological process, it is not regulatory or retroactive.
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>>3288134
This.
Nothing but a bunch of useful idiots
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>>3290287
The "useful idiots" where the Bolshevik intellectuals that betrayed the anarchists to side with stalinists
Anarchism is more opposed and subversive to authoritarian communism than anything else. Stalin did not view anarchists as "useful" idiots he viewed them as dangerous enemies that where a major threat to his power and legitimacy. Capitalist corporate states view anarchism the same way, which is why everyone thinks anarchism means utter chaos and violence in the USA.
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>>3289870
>anarchist superiors
really makes you think...
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>>3290357
It's a joke
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>>3290362
mhm
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>>3290316
t. catalynua fanboy
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>>3287975
Pick your side
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>he isn't an anarcho-transhumanist
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>>3290384
That's a good chart (I'm picking right though). Here's another good chart.
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Is this accurate?
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>>3290387
What is that some kind of tranny, boy?
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>>3290442
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>>3287975
>choose your fetish
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Fuck you OP you spurred my curiosity and I spent a quarter a day researching Homestuck and I sorta liked it
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This shit is all nonsense. Anarchism is the lack of a state. You can't have different types of it or "left leaning" or "right leaning" or "centrist" anarchy. Because anarchy is the lack of something to project politics onto.
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>>3290384
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>>3290457
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>>3290446
No, everything before an cap is as far left as it gets. Everything past mutualism isn't anarchism at all. That's is if you are actually dumb enough to view left/right as a legitimate scale
t. Mutualist
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>>3290384
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>>3290553
>past mutualism
Past individualism I mean.
Also mereotopologically speaking these catagories of anarchism are all parts of the same thing anarchism whose elements overlap, their boundaries cross. While it may be considered that all these anarchist political philosophies are interior parts of the Anarchism universe, the boundaries that make them so are realized by lines arbitrarily drawn by reductions of dissimilarities. What I'm trying to get at is that the various schools of anarchism are not actual entities in Anarchism, but just abstractions from the whole. In essence they are not dogmas to follow but are qualifiers, unfortunately in practice they are often seen as dogmas.
This post was pretty much just intellectual masturbation I'm trying to apply some new things I'm attempting to learn. I usually have to get concepts in natural language before I can understand them formally.
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>>3290384
>flow chart that has two "No" branches when it could branch out after "Because..." instead
???
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>>3290736
Why the fuck would IdPol SJW be Libertarian Left?
They are obviously Authoritarian. Look what they do, and how they fight leftist ideas like universal healthcare.
I mean damn, know your enemy at least
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>>3290736
This is surprisingly accurate. Nobody likes the libertarian-left except the libertarian-left.
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>>3290768
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>>3290768
On the internet and mass media. IRL everyone likes me. When they say something I would call out for being retarded online they usually see they are wrong and look down at the ground in shame after a minute or so. Unless they are really indoctrinated and just start screaming, then I roast them for a couple minutes and they look down at the ground in shame.
I don't hate people with political beliefs outside of what I deem acceptable. I see them for the pathetic people that they are and try to understand where they come from.
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>>3290807
This, the ultimate redpill
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>>3290768
They hate us coz they ain't us
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>>3288094
the fact that you spent so long typing up an unsupported list of your judgments proves that all anarchists are basement dwellers that live online as opposed to going outside and seeing how society works
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>>3290870
>act that you spent so long typing up an unsupported list of your judgments proves that >all anarchists are basement dwellers that live online as opposed to going outside and seeing how society works
o really? what about me here>>3289740 >>3289797
>>3290623
As an ecologist i am very familiar with the way society works
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>>3290491
Welcome to Heck
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>>3289797
>id be happy to explain managing externalities with ecology if anyone is interested.
Do it, but also explain how and why human hierarchy is "unnatural" (or at least this is my impression with this idea of "panarchism")
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>>3288094
>Anarcho-Pacifism
Aka, Carteland, the land where you too can write laws if you come with a gun.
>Anarcho-Mutualism
AKA, capitalism with a (A) stamp on it.
>Anarcho-Syndicalism
>Anarcho-Individualism
How is it even supposed to work?
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>>3287975
>unironically being an anarcho-(insert leftist buzzword here)
At least socialism is practically implementable, anarchy is impossible to implement and maintain
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>>3290446
>anarcho-monarchy
>anarcho-fascism
kek
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>>3288094
Anarchic-Collectivism/Communism literally implies the opposite of a central state, it calls for separated individual communes.
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>>3291278
Anarchy is socialism you idiot
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>>3291297
Socialism is when the state owns the means of production you fucking retard, the state cant own the means of production if there is no state
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>>3291301
>Socialism is when the state owns the means of production you fucking retard
good god, the condition of /his/
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>>3291303
>entering a thread when you don't understand basic definitions
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>>3291301
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>>3291272
>>Anarcho-Mutualism
AKA, capitalism with a (A) stamp on it.
>no private property
>no capital
>capitalism
Either you don't understand mutualist economics or you don't know what capitalism is.
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>>3291318
mutualism has private property tough, it's just collectivized.
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>>3291329
Marxism is just non-anarchist Socialism, it is a sect.
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>>3291325
Wrong again. Mutualism has personal property, if you live there it is yours, property can be collectivized in mutualism say mutual ownership of the means of production like a worker owned factory or farm.
Not even close to private property
Read Proudhon's; "What is property?"
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>>3291340
any ownership of land by non-governmental legal entities is private property. just because there isn't one landowner who leaches off all the workers it doesn't make it not private property.
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>>3291338
>it is a sect.
Those fucking heretics I swear
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>>3291338
>Marxism is a sect
Pure ideology
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>>3291347
No, private property means it's is privatized, I.e. capable of being bought and sold, this leads to absentee ownership/ capitalization of land. It's inherently authoritarian and requires authority to implement. Personal property is property that is you personally occupy (literal possession, as opposed to legal possession). 'Property is theft! To all who are deprived.' Is a famous mutualist slogan. Read "what is property"
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>>3291378
Mad because they got BTFO every time they talked to an anarchist intellectual.
Marxists should have picked better friends, maybe socialism wouldn't be synonymous with totalitarian governments and breadlines in the hubs of global culture. then again, they are power hungry idiots in the first place.
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>>3291440
this
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>>3291480
and how would the proletariat "control" the state?
is that what you call the USSR? Maoist China? a state controlled by the workers? don't make me laugh.
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>>3291440
>anarchist intellectual
good meme
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>>3291485
They were, state capitalism is a necesary stage to socialism.
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>>3291498
>one supreme dictator who says how everything goes is the workers "controlling" the state.
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>>3287975
"LGBT anarchism"
Giggles.
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>>3291480
>anarkiddies want communism
Just socialism
>beated every time by statists (capitalists or not).
>to resolve this issue we should become the statists, beat anarchism, then watch our "vanguard state" go to shit while repressing it's constituency in a geopolitical nightmare.
States are always the problem.
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>>3291509
Yes man, and stalin himself control every factory and farm for his own profit.
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>>3291440
Yeah, I mean, it's perfectly possible to make a revolution, that won't success without military leaders who know how to suppress dissidents and to seize power and who think the end justify the means, that will work for the greater good and not for the good of the rulers.
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>>3291498
>state capitalism is a necessary step
When is the USA and China gonna get that socialism?
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>>3291545
>States are always the problem.
>dissolve state
>get conquered by the next state over
>fuck.jpg
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>>3291545
>>3291509
What a nice utopian socialism you want, works very well in the past.
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>>3291509
>>3291509
>I can't decouple authoritarianism from ideologies I have been told to be against by my own authorities
Seems more like hierarchy is fucking you over, not "leftism" even though you insist that's SJW IdPol Liberalism when it absolutely is not.
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>>3291573
I'm an anarchist though
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>>3291552
It sure is, that's the only real kind of revolution.
You have to get control of the means of production through economic tactics like revolutionary syndicalism, counter economics, spread your ideology through subversion(instead of authority), and more or less peacefully obtain autonomy and the voluntary consent of the people. Every time a populist movement tries to arbitrarily impose a "revolution" it's a complete shit show that destabilizes society and spurs feedback loops of strife.
Fucking populists, learn your lesson already.
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>>3291581
Or you know, just fucking do your thing and fuck society to the degree you can get by with.
We can only win by living our way and normies finally seeing that it is indeed the superior culture.
Lead by EXAMPLE.
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>>3291580
I'm sorry for you.
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>>3291580
and am a neko
am a cat
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>>3291580
then you have nothing to complain about buddy
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>>3291573
So human hierarchy is non natural, right? oh teach us the natural ways eco communalism fag
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>>3291580
Ok honestly, Ive never heard a good explanation for this question. How would an anarchist society defend itself from other states, with large military because lets be honest, there is never going to be some global revolution where all states dissolve at once. It seems like anarchist societies ALWAYS get btfo by non-anarchists militarily.
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>>3291627
Atomic bombs are "natural" that's not the point.
What he means is that it isn't natural in the sense of binding or inescapable.
We can do all kinds of things, I think we can also choose to live differently, to treat others and our habitat in intelligent ways according to our scientific understandings of nature as holistic system.
Bookchin is againt ecofascist shit like even the green party supports. That Green Capitalism or antihuman bullshit on the other side.
We aren't anprims, man.
But you know, if humans are naturally so vile, why do we have actual charity and socialism, and democracy, like how Christianity democratized and socialized the fascist Roman Empire, leading to it's destruction and the implementation of a Christian Europe with it's own sets of problems?
That's the thing, man, break free of FALSE NECESSITY.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYOOwNRFTcY
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>>3290807
>blame the rich jews in the american government
literally NazBol
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>>3291688
You say that like it's a bad thing
>insufficiently aryan
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>>3290633
You mean mutualism "voluntary exchange and limited property rights"?
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>>3291628
the people can still organize themselves to defend from other states.
anarchy just implies there's no ruling class controlling the people.
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>>3291795
>the people can still organize themselves to defend from other states
never successfully
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>>3291819
>>3291795
In which we pretend that people can't use hierarchical structure ad-hoc for temporary or even permanent purposes according to intelligent application.
Like, we could still have a traditional military.
If anything, a military is a socialist entity proper, even with the strict hierarchy and so on.
But you don't put Military into every part of life, that's bonkers, and destroys everything, because that's the job of a military-- to break shit and kill people. So we don't use that in our productive and social cooperative organizations.
Our family and our town should not be run like a military, that should be obvious. Unless you're crazy and want to have everyone everywhere breaking shit and killing people.
Which coincidentally is going on, but with none of the material benefits of being in a military gang proper.
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>>3291842
but then you get into the problem of how to fund the military, you need tax collectors (money or supplies if there is no money). What do you do about people or groups who refuse to contribute? Is there any sort of enforcement? Because thats basically a state.
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>>3291842
I know you're meming with that image, but it's not wrong. When people give charity, they do so out of their own pocket, so they are forced to be careful and wise when giving. Meanwhile, socialism gives away the taxpayer's money. Because the government can take as much of the tax money as they want, they don't have to be careful when giving out money. Case in point: if welfare was run as a charity, welfare-queens who have no chance of turning around for a profit wouldn't exist.
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>>3291645
>ecofascist
Let me guess, "fascism is capitalism with fangs" right.
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>>3291884
>>3291884
>socialism gives away the taxpayer's money.
>Because the government can take as much of the tax money as they want
> welfare
you seem to be confusing welfare capitalism with socialism. Welfare queens do not exist in socialism, they have access to means of production.
Also, considering how the poster you replied to seems to be an anarchist, do you have any idea how stupid that post was?
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>>3291606
>e can only win by living our way and normies finally seeing that it is indeed the superior culture.
thats pretty much what i was sayin iwth a few particular tactics omitted
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>>3291229
>but also explain how and why human hierarchy is "unnatural
because it is synthesized from boundaries abstracted from human social interaction. Id say it is synthetic not unnatural. This abstract way of organizing ourselves turns into a schizm between our behavior and the world we live in. A sort of ecological detachment. Human hierarchies are wholly represented in abstracta. This is really an ontological discussion.
As for managing market externalities with the science the goal is this, to teleologically eliminate negative externalities during the processes of development, resource allocation, production, distribution, .... Now the goal isn't to regulate these processes or plan what the people should do, its to guide the hand of the people to make the most ethical decisions based on fact. This might seem like authority but the reason it needs to be put in place is to insure the liberty of the living world. Our actions impact the world around us and we must take that into account to be libertarians. So its basically a luddite ecological vanguard that isnt a governing or regulatory body it only plays a cautionary role. Its the only way to have anarchist markets as far as i am concerned.
sorry for sounding retarded im pretty fucked right now
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>>3289870
>anarchist
>intellectual
Anarchism is the ideology of 14 year olds.
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>>3292019
So if human hierarchy is an abstraction, then literally every ideology or organizational model can be cataloged as an abstraction or "synthetic".
Also:
>luddite ecological vanguard
I don't like how this sounds, its like the vanguard will "guide" humanity to a some dystopian amprim cliche.
>>
the poor are animals they dont deserve rights hell i even think we should bring back slavery then society would be more ordered
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>>3291645
Personally I consider Bookchin's Social Ecology is hippie/lifestylism shit. For example he complains that the "ecofascism" say not to help the starving third world and let nature run its course. However we see that when we give free food to Africans it pushes local farmers out of business and into a life of crime. Also humans are not good or evil but opportunists,a person can exploit (or cheat) a system for they own benefit or group of interest, this cause possible interest conflicts between different groups and individuals. This is why I see the State like a must in very large populations.
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>>3287975
>Anarcha
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>>3292044
>luddite vanguard
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>>3292062
The rich are [arasites who exist only through predatory usury and the exploitation of those who truly produce.
They should be processed into food, those that are not riddled with degenerate rich people diseases.
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Who're the least likely to manipulate history to suit them?
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>>3292153
>They should be processed into food, those that are not riddled with degenerate rich people diseases.
Mfw chinese people were cripto anprims all this time
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>>3292044
No it doesn't take an executive role, it's basically applying science to our actions before we do them. As to keep from fucking up. The people hold all the exucutive power and science is just a check on this power. I'm not in a good position to articulate this, sorry
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>>3292198
So they are literally ecoactivists with "good intentions", also I don't sure about those checks, I expect most of people will literally not care about this matter, and they rather delegate all the responsabilities to this science "elite".
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>>3292044
Through interpretation abstracta can interact with concrete. Synthetic constructs like hierarchal social systems still have a measurable (often negative) impact on the actual world through their functioning.
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>>3292229
The good thing about science is it is based on facts and logic, and openly available to the public. Without the means the scientific community is incorruptible. Also here science is not put into a position of authority, it is making no decisions, it is an ethical tool to make decisions. It's a preventative measure.
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>>3292244
Sorry but I see too much optimistic your presumption of the supposed "Incorruptible" scientific community, dogmatism and scientificism is a risk to take in account,also if they will go to be something like overseers, how they can guarantee collaboration of the people without coercion?
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>>3292194
AnPrims are against technology. I'm not.
I'm more of a Social Ecology guy.
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>>3292230
>Synthetic constructs like hierarchal social systems still have a measurable (often negative) impact on the actual world through their functioning.
But you are omitted any possible positive impact of such "synthetic" construct, and I make a remark in "synthetic" because seem like very subjective term, many medications (by example) are synthetic and not for this are inherently harmful.
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>>3292280
>eco social guy
Hmm.. so you are "techno" anprim.
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>>3292282
>But you are omitted any possible positive impact of such "synthetic" construct
That's irrelevant to discussing negative externalities, what it be.
>make a remark in "synthetic" because seem like very subjective term,
Not at all this has to do with the analytic-synthetic distinction.
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>>3292288
No, I'm completely modern, I'm just smart enough to see that we need to apply science to this mess and stick with it instead of this feels based bullshit like climate change denial and "muh jerbs are more important than clean water. oh shit no jobs and now my water is fucked, damn liberals" thinking.
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>>3292332
Then tell me which kind of hierarchical social system are considered synthetic and which not? sorry but I am trying to understand your criteria in that matter.
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>>3292342
Ah you are more like an eco technocrat, and I'm not implying this is a bad thing.
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>>3292346
The ones that hurt people and habitat more than is necessary as continually measured and adjusted by scientific research.
I'm not concerned with what is "natural" or "unnatural", just what is sane and works.
A better term would maybe be "in our power to change" which is a lot.
We can change so very much.
We have CRISPR/cas9 now. We have robotic drone "bees" to pollinate our crops. We have technology to do what needs doing without ANYONE being exploited or unfairly predated upon.
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>>3292346
All social systems are synthetic. Real hierarchies are very different from social hierarchies. I'm talking about hierarchies in the context of the structure of complex systems. I've read some convincing literature arguing that those kinds of hierarchies do not exist either, but I think they exist in real information.
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>>3292357
>robotic drone bees
Just use real insects lmao.
Biodiversity conservation is way easier than ridiculous technology like that.
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>>3292357
I still see your vision pretty utopian and optimist, too much worry about "exploitation" and don't "hurt" everyone. Science and technology is a must in our society, is a fact, but you still need political unity and some kind of coercion (state?) to coordinate all this and work well.
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>>3292383
So what kind of organization will fit more with human behavior? How deal with the "anti social" elements in that society?
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>>3287975
Don't all of these coexist/overlap/compete in any of the flavors of anarchy?
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>>3287975
Why not just Anarchy? No government, that is all?
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>>3292397
Yes except ancaps. Fuck ancaps
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>>3292424
And no Owners, no Bosses.
Not to say no organization, but none of the dictatorship and loss of all rights accompanied by clocking in at work in the first world and everywhere else.
No more selling your time/body like a whore for scraps fro the master's table.
No more consumerist make-work.
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>>3292489
>if products were made to last
But there's a variation of almost every product that's made to last, it's just more expensive.
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>>3292489
And how you/we can coordinate all this without a state? and also how we can solve the demand of basic products and public services for large populations without a state?
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>>3288172
Honestly I would love to see an army march into Rojava in drag. Spectator event of the decade
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>>3292578
They serve well their purpose :^)
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>>3288172
>TQILA
this fags sure can party
>>
>>
>>3292193
Nobody
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People who arent in the blue quadrant deserve to be executed. Preferably by helicopter.
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>>3292025
>Dipshits forgetting the most quoted intellectual in modern times is an anarchist
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>>3289836
And you would be wrong
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>>3292452
How would they be excluded under any other anarchist system? They would band together and compete with all other groups, it's not like a state would be enforcing laws against the ownership of land, property, or capitalizing on other people's labor. If you ask me it seems like their devolution into feudalism would give them an exceptional advantage over any other group coexisting or competing in any system.
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>>3292777
this
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The mencheviks should've won.
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>>3292390
>need political unity and some kind of coercion (state?) to coordinate all this and work well.
then why isnt that happening?
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>>3292395
So what kind of organization will fit more with human behavior?
anarchy
>How deal with the "anti social" elements in that society?
the social repercussions of being an asshole. social punishment does not need an authority too do so, individual agents interacting can and do take care of that. not to mention it is still possible to have a libertarian judicial organization without laws. radically democratic and a formal ontology setting the rules
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>>3293803
>then why isn't that happening?
This is actually is happening, the technology is in developed and some in application, of course you can see that like a "ecofascism" because is promoted by a state (with public funding) like most of the other scientific researches.
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>>3292269
>how they can guarantee collaboration of the people without coercion?
The entire basis is to ensure we do not infringe on the liberty of others, social coercion is a very real thing. People will collaborate the same way they will collaborate not to murder eachother. Do whatever you want just dont be a dick, thats the rule. This will also take place in a compartmentalized network of the scientific community that collaborate through shared information.
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>>3292885
>Noam chomsky
>anarchist
How surbersive.
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>>3292885
Hey thanks bro
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What's the point of different streams of anarchism when by removing the state they can't enforce any of the shit they want to happen?
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>>3293846
what is happening isnt an option if civilization and the world it lives in is supposed to survive in any meaningful way.
btw every wild living thing has an equal right to live and humans need to take that into account
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>>3293856
actually i believe he said to voice your dissent
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>>3293854
So a mob rule, sorry but you still made a lot of assumptions of the good willing nature of the people, especially "the mass", who exactly will made to respect the rule "don't be a dick" the "non police", the "squad of pubic shame"
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>>3293861
when will retardslet this meme go? he has condemed the khmer rouge on many occasions and the book in which he was talking about it in was focused on US foreign policy, not the khmer rouge
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>>3293880
Sure thing, bro.
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>>3293877
>you still made a lot of assumptions
no, you are making assumptions when dont fully understand how this is supposed to work
as i said here
> individual agents interacting can and do take care of that. not to mention it is still possible to have a libertarian judicial organization without laws. radically democratic and a formal ontology setting the rules
the whole point is communities will be decentralized and small. if my neighbor decided to stat dumping raw sewage into the drinking water, he wouldn't get away with it.
>So a mob rule
not at all
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>>3293872
Also you seems to ignore the fact the science and technology is in service of multinationals and private hands, contamination and waste is caused by inefficiency, but they still do it because is still very profitable.What I say is the state is a must if you want to organize and make effective all this stuff. you must be pragmatic and not utopic.
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>>3293904
actually no, science is a product of the scientific community, technology comes from innovation
the only role private hands and multinationals play is in capitalizing science and technology. People throwing money around has nothing to do with the process itself apart from who controls the means of production.
In anarchy the people control the means of production
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>>3293904
>, contamination and waste is caused by inefficiency,
no its called a negative externality. its a product of efficient capitalization
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>>3293902
>if my neighbor decided to stat dumping raw sewage into the drinking water, he wouldn't get away with it.
How? shaming him? threatening him?, throwing stones to him?, burning his house? who is made the limit? no, you not have any idea of the violence is capable to happen in stateless scenario. opportunism will rise up if you made the conditions.
>the whole point is communities will be decentralized and small.
According who? this is a imposed policy or voluntary? what if people don't want to "relocation" to a small "thriving" community?
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>>3293904
>you must be pragmatic and not utopic.
niave pragmatism is just the same as Utopian
i am a pragmatist
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>>3293939
no, you are so utopian you immediately discard the state as an option because you despise coercion. you have too much faith in voluntary action, and I can't see very pragmatic solution to the ecological problems with that mentality
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>>3293932
>? what if people don't want to "relocation" to a small "thriving" community?
it has nothing to do with physical location
its the way we organize ourselves. sensu libertarian muncipalism
>How? shaming him? threatening him?, throwing stones to him?, burning his house? who is made the limit? no, you not have any idea of the violence is capable to happen in stateless scenario. opportunism will rise up if you made the conditions.
like i said judicial practice is more than possible without a state, as long as the judiciary does not make governing decisions, only criminal causes considered with an axiomatic system on a case by case basis
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>>3293946
>and I can't see
thats what im saying
>you have too much faith in voluntary action
*mutual cooperation
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>>3293917
>In anarchy the people control the means of production
So is socialism, anarchy control is to disperse to make a significant change, central organization (but still democratic) is a more pragmatic and effective solution to that problem.
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>>3293953
>mutual cooperation
mutual cooperation can be cooperation to overthrow your system, or corrupted their purpose. I sorry but I see our points of view very opposed and irreconcilable so is a waste of time continue trying to attack each other points.
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>>3293958
the state is not people
>central organization
> is a more pragmatic and effective solution to that problem.
HAHAHAHAHAHA get back to me when you know something start here
http://barabasi.com/f/619.pdf
the only good things states and central planning are good for is concentrating power and authority
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>>3293995
Yes man, I am literally Stalin if I'm advocate for the state organization, right? central planning is posible with the current technology, take a look of this, maybe will change your mind of just reforce your own bias.
http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/new_socialism.pdf
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>>3294023
>>3294023
ill try, but i find it very hard to pay attention to non-analytical literature. I prefer to read analytic philosophy and science, come up with my own ideas, then find labels to describe myself retroactively.
you sholud also learn about network science, actor network theory, and the dynamics of complex systems . Studying theoretical ecology science is a god way to do all of that and much more. I dont like central planning and i dont like state hierarchical entities because they are antithetical to synergy in complex-adaptive systems with emergent properties.
im sorry im not very good at transcribing some things to layspeak
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>>3294166
It's ok, even if we don't shared the same point of view, we have respectful conversation in the matter.
>>
Anarchists are as pathetic as they are irrelevant.
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>>3287975
The shades of autism
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>>3291573
I can cite about a hundred different species using hierarchies.
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>>3294227
bookchin didnt into hiearchy theory very well, wast a great ecologist.
those species you list are all using synthetic hierarchies just like us. natural hierarchies are just complexity scaled up and have nothing to do with authority.
you are both wrong.
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>>3294185
yeah its nice to have a civil discussion in this shithole
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>>3294253
>Hyena pack do what hyena boss tell them to do
>Big new hyena come
>Win a fight against hyena boss
>Hyena pack is now obeying new big hyena
It work that way for every social animal with a brain larger than a peanut.
>>
>Coercion is only ever from The State
It's like none of you have been mugged, or clocked in to a job before.
Coercion is everywhere, hardly limited to physical force either.
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>>3294738
you didnt understand me at all :(
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>>3294738
This is not how hive insects work.
"Queen" Doesn't mean anything like what it does in human society.
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>>3287975
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bos0lEXiHHc
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>>3291819
that tends to happen when you are outnumbered by your enemies 100:1, like most anarchist societies were.
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>>3296408
So this will happen every time they try, unless they are in post apocalyptic scenario.
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>>3296426
what makes you say this?
the state can be done away with at any time.
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