ITT we discuss confederate statutes

>>3273046
No statues should be torn down. Put them in museums sure, but having mobs of what are essentially thugs tearing them down is awful.

I'm no sympathizer to the traitorous confederate cause, and I think the muh southern pride are a bunch of faggots.

However, enacting a Damnatio Memoriae is just stupid. We have statues of Lenin in Seattle and donations of Romulus and Remus from Mussolini. It's not a far extrapolation to carry it to the founding fathers, except for Hamilton because he was once played by a black guy in a somewhat decent musical.

Stick them in museums and replace them with memorials for confederate soldiers (in general, rather than specific individuals) and civil rights related figures. I think that's a fair compromise.

>>3273046
Yeah remove them, put them in a museum or something.

>>3273046
Removed but not fucking destroyed like all those idiots are doing. Put them in a museum

>>3273046
They should be put into a museum if you don't want to see them in public. History is something you shouldn't destroy at all costs


>>3273055
>Hamilton:The Musical
>Makes Hamilton into a nice guy, not the cool asshole he actually was
>decent

Keep going down this route murrifats, at one point the american flag will be deemed a racist symbol.

>>3273046
No. You shouldn't just attempt to erase or sanitise your past like some kind of Stalinist drone. Put up informative signs explaining the context of the American Civil War and the historical personage being depicted; put up civil rights/abolitionist monuments adjacent to the statues so people have a more rounded view of their local history. If people feel like you're trying to repress their history or identity they'll react negatively and your efforts will backfire.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-20/what-confederate-monument-builders-were-thinking
Let's be real here, there are many statues dedicated to those who lost their lives fighting for both sides of the Civil War and no one is complaining about those. These statues put up in the 1890s/1900s are a different story.

>>3273046
I find it weird to attempt to remove history, but at the same time I dont thibk that every statue is sacrosanct and cities should have the right to remove them.
But the protest and counter protest have very little to do with these statues. They are just a catalyst.

>>3273046
No.

The people demanding they be taken down will not stop. For SJWs it's simply never enough and if you give them an inch they'll take a mile.

Additionally, uprooting your own history to appease some fucking snowflakes is an incredibly stupid thing to do.

>violently removing government funded (read: TAX PAYER funded) statues
>violently removing privately funded (read: committing criminal property damage) statues
>caring about inanimate objects and idealismsms more so than actual people
>actively spending your time to hurt rather than spending it to help
>larping as Beeldenstormers from Netherlands during reformation or some other retards destroying art because "muh special snowflake personal god don't like dat surely"
>larping as some commie idiots with "other values than you :P" attitude
>not just using the best of the statues and google some history behind them instead of focusing solely on the negative things and try to kill kill destroy muhaha and flatten the terrain to be as bland as your cognitive capacity

Disdain for plebs.jpg

Modern controversies don't qualify as /his/, I'm sure a mod will delete this thread.

That said I think the statues should stay up. The legitimate states' governments chose to secede and draft their men into war. Those men served their states well and ought to be honered by their states. I'm glad my state passed a law protecting them.

>>3273150
>I'm sure a mod will delete this thread.
haha good luck

No museum wants those statues. They have no artistic or historical value.

Ultimately I think each statue should be judged on its own merits. Statues are not just history, they're a representation of the values the community wants to endorse (That's why they were put up in the first place. Not to commemorate, but to make a political point). It should be up to the community ti decide what each individual statue says about them and if they like what it says. No history will be lost if they take them down, and racism won't suddenly make a comeback if they let them stay.

Regardless of whether they're taken down or not, making new statues commemorating people who fought against slavery is I think a good idea.

>>3273150
>don't qualify as /his/,

statutes of historical figures aren't /his/?

>>3273159
>they're a representation of the values the community wants to endorse
So that Lenin statue in Seattle means Seattle, or at least part of the city it's erected in, are communists?

Most of these statues were put up in the 30's to the 60's so it's not like they're even that old.

>>3273157
>>3273161

They deleted the last statue thread I saw in yesterday but who knows maybe a butthurt mod lost an argument in that thread and nuked it for that reason.

was there never any controversy about the building of these statues?

they were mostly built in the 1910s, surely there were still a fair few civil war vets still alive then, were the northerners not pissed about states of people who they fought against being put up?

They should be moved from public property to museums and private collections

File: southern-poverty-law-center_wide-8dd59c84cdf1835e87d11d69ad98e7c1dc119a02-s800-c85.png (143KB, 800x450px) Image search: [Google]

143KB, 800x450px

>>3273179
>Most of these statues were put up in the 30's to the 60's

Really tickles the pickle

>>3273171
That statue's privately owned and on private property.

>>3273212
Aren't some of these statues being demanded to be torn down private property as well?

>>3273189
I was wrong. Failed rebels still shouldn't be celebrated.

>>3273226
Not that I'm aware of. Most of the issue is that city councils are having them removed from public places and institutions. Like the Lee statue.

>>3273226
The government doesn't have the power to remove things on private property. Seattle city council would LIKE to take that Lenin statue down. But all they can do is pass a city resolution expressing their desire.

>>3273159
>They have no artistic or historical value.
They literally do though anon...

>>3273281
Not according to the museums. They don't give a shit about them.

>>3273281
Not every statue is that important. There are thousands of these statues and no one wants to see a 90 year old statue of a Confederate General at a museum.

>>3273046
Yes.

>>>/pol/

>>3273089
Something like 22 statues of lee have gone up since 2000 in different American states. This isn't like they are trying to remove some historical 1880s monument. Regardless, the south lost, they were racist, and they are in public. Put them in a museum. *indiana jones music playing*

>>3273055
What was the rationale for making him black?

>>3273046
I don't even care about the racism implication. They were traitors who rebelled against the US and killed American soldiers. They committed treason and should not have their statues on government owned land.

>>3273075
>>3273053

These are bargain basement mass produced sculptures put up by the Daughters of the Confederacy in the 1920's. They have about as much artistic value as a lawn decoration you can buy from the Home Depot.

Quantity, not Quality, was the name of the game when these statues were erected. There's not enough museums in the US to put them in, and even if the Museums wanted statues, they want high quality ones.

>>3273770
No sir, check this chart>>3273189

Im not saying that some weren't put up for political or racist reasons, but we can't generalize all of them in this manner.

I'm glad that the general consensus in this thread is keep the monuments but transfer them to museums. Good to know there's some level headed thinking on this website. Erasing history is akin to commies and ISIS, and America should never be either.

>>3273337
No
>>>/reddit/

>>3273046
Yes they should be torn down, fuck your pride. Would you have a statue of Hitler and Himmler in the south because "muh heritage"? No! We fought fascism and we don't have statues of defeated enemies. The Confederacy is Nazi Germany and having statues of a Nazi style regime in America is repugnant.

>>3273791

> Im not saying that some weren't put up for political or racist reasons, but we can't generalize all of them in this manner.

We can safely say most of them are put up in this manner. Look at when the vast majority of these statues were erected.

>>3273821
wehraboos, confedaboos, racists, misogynists, homo/transphobic and other types of bigots belong on >>>/pol/.

I don't care about the monuments of confederate generals, although some of them were great men who should be remembered, they were traitors and keeping them up stirs up so much shit apparently. But taking down monuments to confederate soldiers is completely unnecessary, many countries have monuments to their enemies out of respect and remembrance, but especially for the civil war where they weren't ordinary "enemies" they were regular citizens who went to fight and die for the CSA, they should be kept up at no matter what.

>>3273134
Most of the statues are mass produced garbage put up during the civil rights era.

The only snowflakes are the ones who put them up, and are wanting to keep them desu

Stick a few in some museum if you want, but the majority can be melted down with nothing of value being lost.

What should be done with the cemeteries? Should we (I'm not baiting and being sarcastic), dig up their graves denounce them posthumously like during the CR and crush their bones and destroy all of their graves?

>>3273046

I dont like dixiboos and I was originally all in favor of removing them, but now Im not. All thats going to happen is this is going to set the precedent of removing all "racist white men" statues and feed into the cultural marxist bullshit plaguing the western world. I guarantee everyone one of these statues is going to be replaced by some cringy, tacky, and meaningless black person statue.

>>3273046
They shouldn't be "torn" down, but they should be put in museums instead. Surely the south has more people worthy of being immortalized, said people can take their place as statues on the outside.

File: 1502186592077.jpg (25KB, 480x712px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 480x712px

>>3274572
>Cultural marxism

>>3274562
False equivalence. Statues are public monuments commemorating someone or some event. No one is public displaying someone's corpse.

>>3274590
I'm not talking about the statues. I'm being serious here, what should we do with the war graves and the cemeteries?

I think, and I am not straw manning here, I'm being really serious and I advocate this, I think we should be destroying the grave sites of the traitors and dig up their corpses and crush their bones.

File: e96.jpg (217KB, 607x608px) Image search: [Google]

217KB, 607x608px

>>3274580

>i-it doesnt exist! we just have bands of communist marauders rampaging across the nation while the mass media waxes poetic about them and our higher education is filled with communist professors!

>>3274607
They're not public displays dude.

>>3273046
They have to be removed public spaces, there is no reason to have them there standing in this day and age. It is like having statues of Adolf Hitler in front of the Reichstag.

>>3274624
>Antifa
>Communist

You ARE a moron, ain'tcha?

>>3274629
I don't care if they aren't public displays, its a war grave for traitors and racist filth that needs to be addressed in the 21st century. Racism hurts and my blood boils when I see these monuments still up but we're not going far enough.

>>3274624
Go back to /pol/, brainlet.

>>3274650
Ok now I know I'm being baited here. You can't compare the thought process behind destroying monuments with whatever bullshit you are spouting to advocate for destroying cemeteries and graves. If you aren't going to propose a different argument, I'm done here.

>>3274650
The burials aren't public, and they aren't glorifying those buried there. It's a hole. Destroying the bodies won't be necessary if we address the monuments that do actually glorify them.

While I personally don't agree with simply taking them down I think they should not get any different treatment than buildings, ideally you will preserve them but I understand that sometimes businesses or governments may decide to change or remove them.

The people who erect the statue should have the right to take it down.

File: 1495852467063.jpg (86KB, 1225x778px) Image search: [Google]

86KB, 1225x778px

>>3273903
fucking poe's law hitting me hard for this post

>>3274691
While I personally don't want to commemorate these traitors, so i can agree with the leftists on that front, I dont think we should be vigilantes and take them down extra judicially.

If someone has a strong enough moral, religious, or legal basis for taking these things down, you should petition it and debate against your officials. The atheists who took down a cross in public land a while back is a good example of this and one i can support.

File: 1422584335993.png (402KB, 807x547px) Image search: [Google]

402KB, 807x547px

>>3274650

Your founding fathers were racist traitors, too.

>>3274708
The brits dont have statues of our founding fathers, do they?

File: 1472855532444.png (695KB, 640x480px) Image search: [Google]

695KB, 640x480px

Liberals and blacks full of blind hatred for average men who fought and died en masse for hearth and home in an ambiguous war is something I find distasteful, especially when you consider a good portion of the white people spitting on the memory of these men are probably related to them or men like them if you go back a way. I'm also skeptical of the sudden apparent rabid patriotism expressed by people calling these men traitors, same with the libs talking about "we beat them once we'll beat um again ahyuck hyuck" in regard to the white nationalists and others who gathered at Charlottesville, I'm sure they're entirely genuine :^).

>>3274711
We have a statue of Washington in London I think.

>>3273046
Y, but put in a museum instead would be a win win

>>3274756
Welp, if you guys wanted to take it down, in a legal and civilized manner, I wouldn't blame you.
To you folks, hes a traitor, to us, hes a father of our nation.

>>3273150
Yes, what better way to remember the soldiers than with a statue of the men who marched them into death.

File: TeeHee_Wolf_Titties.jpg (47KB, 534x401px) Image search: [Google]

47KB, 534x401px

>>3273055
> donations of Romulus and Remus from Mussolini
Cincinnati resident just wanting to confirm this fact.

>>3273667
Muh diversity. That's literally it.

>>3273667
with very few exceptions, rap music sounds corny when done by non-blacks.

>>3274886
Rap sounds retarded regardless of the performer.

>>3273055
It's not Damnatio Memoriae. The statues are not being destroyed and erased except in the cases of retarded protesters.

The Confederate statues are being moved off of public property.

The people charging to take these statues down just want to feel like they control their government, kinda like when they took down that confed flag after Dylan Roof. Notice how whenever a right-leaning crime occurs, the populous decides they want to do something?

>>3274892
You're right, I personally think the whole Hamilton thing is overblown.

>>3273055
I'm really sad I didn't look into the founding fathers before Hamilton came out. Now if I try to look up the founding fathers it's all Hamilton stuff. I'd like to know more about him, and I'd rather not read books to do it because I'm a lazy cunt. If anyone is willing to give me a quick description of him, I'd appreciate it, whatever that means to you.

This new spree of taking down statues is overblown. The vast majority will stay up or are in states where they're protected by law. It's not even certain if the charlottesville statue of Lee is coming down.

Honestly I wish lefties would shut up about them. They always do shit like this and then wonder why they're losing state houses to the republicans. Both the Democratic governors of LA and NC will be shit on next election because of this.

>>3274865
Thing is that is actually based off of a famous work of art and has historical context (a gift by mussolini) and not generic crap like lenin/stalin/lee etc. statues. If it really has historical or artistic merit by itself it shouldn't be erased. Best case would be for the aboos (disregarding politics) to just buy them and set them up on their own property. This whole thiing is a storm iin a teacup, anyway.

>>3273046
Destroying/removing statues for political reasons is pure fascism.
>but they were the racist guys
As far as I know the US society (the society of those who won this war) is racist as fuck. Black people were barely allowed to fight for the North, and they're still considered as an embarassing population.

This pathetic trend is a complete bullshit. It stinks.

>>3273622
The funny part is most people don't realize Lee advocated for civil rights following the civil war. Just no one wanted to listen to him.

>>3274886
>american """""""""""""""""""""musicals""""""""""""""""""""

lmao

>>3274947
Imagine your local Gamestop erected a monument to Anita Sarkeesian and maybe you'll understand.

>ISIS bulldozes ancient statue because it hurts their feelings
>Antifa pulls down Confederate statue because it hurts their feelings
Really activated my almonds.

No

Doing so accomplishes absolutely nothing. It's pointless. It is however mildly destructive towards art, culture, history and the last vestiges of enlightenment values of viewing culture through a universalist lens of detached rationality.

The only reason we're having this stupid "conversation" at all is because of a bunch of bored virtue signalers that literally have nothing better to do. That combined with a toxic if not outright evil media culture that pathologically foments faux outrage out of nothing for clicks and relevance, as well a cynical 1% elite that pushes this fake outrage identity politics stuff to distract the masses from much more serious real economic, and other generally psychical, problems..

>>3275223
>monuments to traitors who fought to keep fellow men and women in chains
>enlightenment values
hmm

>>3275243
Yeah that was a long and kind of out there line that I figured wouldn't communicate what I was trying to say well.

What I meant was a shift in mindset into a post-modernist mode of thought where "The personal is the political." As opposed to detachment, rationality, and grudging respect.

This article explains it well.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-liberal-crackup-1502456857

>This phrase was coined by feminists in the 1960s and captured perfectly the mind-set of the New Left at the time. Originally, it was interpreted to mean that everything that seems strictly private—sexuality, the family, the workplace—is in fact political and that there are no spheres of life exempt from the struggle for power. That is what made it so radical, electrifying sympathizers and disturbing everyone else.

>But the phrase could also be taken in a more romantic sense: that what we think of as political action is in fact nothing but personal activity, an expression of me and how I define myself. As we would put it today, my political life is a reflection of my identity.

>Over time, the romantic view won out over the radical one, and the idea got rooted on the left that, to reverse the formula, the political is the personal. Liberals and progressives continued to fight for social justice out in the world. But now they also wanted there to be no space between what they felt inside and what they did in that world. They wanted their political engagements to mirror how they understood and defined themselves as individuals.

In the past (prior 1960s), even a super butthurt liberal might look at a statue of Thomas Jefferson and say "well let me tell you about the dark side of this man that's not part of the celebrated narrative." They would say that but there would be a understood respect for the importance in his role of history and the great achievements he is part of that we should all celebrate.

There is no nuance now, it's only righteous or unrighteous.

I started as a leftist, but after going to some protests and getting beaten (not too bad, lol) by antifa, and seeing them beat elderly veterans for being on the sidelines and talking with both sides, I started to associate more with the pro-CSA guys. Pretty cool people, mostly veterans and history buffs (even if Confederate history is their main subject). In the 1920s Confederates were declared honorary US soldiers, and their graves and monuments are supposed to be protected in the same way.

This was with the flag issue, though - protests around Stone Mountain. About a year ago I enlisted, and I've been watching everything since Trump was elected. The statue removal reminds me too much of the lead-up to some dictatorship, I always get a shaky feeling about the rise of radical leftists and revisionism. They destroyed a very old monument to Christopher Columbus, since I've been in they removed plaques explaining alternative theories (with a lot of evidence) to the mysterious stone structures at a campground I used to frequent because they were "racist," and near my hometown a statue is about to come down. Nobody locally supports it, but a college is close by.

I've also noticed that these protesters are almost always bussed in. I've been writing a book on it, just my experiences on the sidelines of activism, and the people you see rioting, screaming and beating are always brought in last-second and bailed out.

The same arguments could be used against Vietnam memorials. "They lost, get over it." "Their cause was un-just." "That was forever ago." "They were racists." And on, and on

(Sorry if I'm rambling, long night out, /his/ /pol/

>by the way

Any monuments or memorials like this in the UK? I've been meaning to visit the Rhodesian merc statue in Hatfield and the Rhodes statue at Oxford

Also I've been trying to compile a list of a lot of Confederate stuff to do that's in danger of disappearing. Anyone else doing the same? Please contribute! I'm mapping stuff on Google earth; Out of country for work for a few years, feels bad a lot of this list is disappearing

>Stone Mountain on Confederate Memorial Day, and the memorial park at the base, and another on the way up with all the flags
>Kennessaw Mountain Battlefield not far from Stone Mtn. Hike to the top, read 1800s graffiti on the way up, view Stone Mountain and Atlanta from the top
>Sweetwater Crook State Park, which iirc Sherman burned down, beautiful ruins, and cool little museum; They have a case of guns someone dredged up from the river and old Indian petroglyphs
>Wildman's Civil War Surplus, the dude was a KKK spiritualist but reformed, believes he's reincarnated from a CSA general, sells all his crazy eccentric old stuff and has basically a museum of white power stuff, Confederate history and 1990s right wing movement history, right across the street from the CSA railroad museum and a monument to the train hoppers if I remember

These are all close together and can be done in a day. Also try Andersonville, this has monuments from most northern states at the time, it was a CSA prison for Union soldiers, and a cemetery for them as well. The Confederates ran out of supplies and it became like Auschwitz, the museum used to be more sad though. There was a section that simulated being caught; Lights out, people screaming get on the ground, bayonets. Amazing memorials, but my favorite is the marble well on the hill; Soldiers were dying from diseased water, so they were praying and lighting hit the ground, and water came up, and it's still running. It saved a lot of people.

In the town next to it is a monument to Wirz, the CSA camp director who was hanged. The Daughters of Confederate veterans said he was misunderstood. Either way, I don't think it should be torn down.

File: 20120328-fascism-gop.jpg (28KB, 312x433px) Image search: [Google]

28KB, 312x433px

>>3273084

>>3273046
Yes because they're no longer monuments to historical figures but rallying points for white supremacists.

>>3275491
Where are you from, Anon? I'm from the south, they were never rallying points for anyone but neo-Confederates and groups like Sons of Confederate Veterans. They became supremacist rally points after the media told supremacists they were rally points.

It's just frustrating when you see people saying things like this that never grew up around these war memorials. They've been in our town squares and cemeteries and parks for over a hundred years and never had that meaning until the political violence. It's unfortunate that white supremacists are the only ones that have the guts to protest it, but when you deal with people who crack you over the head with bike locks for voicing your opinion, you don't get an outpouring of the brightest people out there.

Anon, those were meeting places for Bible study groups, Boy Scout troops, book clubs, historians, families of the confederate soldiers. Now people are tearing them down because of hurt feelings.

>but OMG NAZIS!

Statues that popped up in the 20th century because of REEEEing over civil rights, as well as ones for cunts like Forrest should definitely be moved. The others I'd be more inclined to keep, or move somewhere more appropriate if necessary
>>3275321
>The same arguments could be used against Vietnam memorials
Vietnam vets weren't seccessionists actively fighting against their own government because they got too apocalyptic about Lincoln abolishing Slavery (He wouldn't have done anything nearly as radical as the Emancipation Proclamation in the name of unity)

>>3275531
I kind of agree with your first part. There should be a (well protected) memorial park with those statues, like in Hungary or Moscow with the statues of Lenin and Stalin. The problem is, that's a target for leftists who think they're revolutionary for banging a rock against metal. But there's a difference, most statues were put up around the 10s and 20s

>got butthurt about Lincoln abolishing slavery
That wasn't the reason the civil war was fought, Anon, at all. I won't be all southern redneck and say it was states rights.

From what I understand, states where there was slave ownership had a certain representation, and states that didn't have slaves had some too, setting equal voting power. Lincoln overturned the vote of one state to continue slavery (yeah, it was wrong,) which was the straw that broke the camel's back.

The issue of abolishing slavery supposedly came up, and the south agreed to it, if they could remain independent, but Lincoln wanted none of it and passed the Proclamation, which only applied to the south at the time, as a big "fuck you."

The majority of the people fighting were doing it for a culture and because they thought government was using too much authority, which is why I think we need a memorial for the killed North Vietnamese in Washington. I get that most of them were probably just scared, seeing what Uncle Sam was making his boys do.

The big mistake is mixing politics with memorials. It memorializes death and sacrifice defending your home.

>>3275531
>Vietnam vets weren't seccessionists actively fighting against their own government
"Their own governments" were their states. The Virginia House of Delegates had existed for roughly 250 years, of which only 70 were as a part of the US. Don't attribute modern notions of American nationalism to the 1860's. It makes perfect sense for those states to honor the men who fought for them.

>because they got too apocalyptic about Lincoln abolishing Slavery (He wouldn't have done anything nearly as radical as the Emancipation Proclamation in the name of unity)
maybe because the secession wasn't 100% about fear Lincoln would free the slaves. The Virginians debated for days on whether to secede or not and most agreed that slavery wasn't going to be abolished if they stayed.

>>3274886
Black gospel >>>>>>>>>>> (((rap)))

>>3274711
Not only >>3274756
but there are statues of Oliver Cromwell in England and statues of Louis Riel in Canada.

I'm all for addressing the issue of slavery, but Americunts seriously need to get over this idea that anyone who dares to oppose them are demons simply for doing so.

>>3275689
>anyone who dares to oppose them are demons simply for doing so.

It's a modern paradox. War is now seen as so terrible that your opponents must be dehumanized to levels of monstrosities in order to justify it. In the 19th century you had opposing civil war generals hold reunions and parades together after the war. William Tecumseh Sherman was named after an Indian war chief who was a mortal enemy of the US. Seeing your enemy as a noble opponent was perfectly acceptable.

>>3273046
Arguing that Confederate monuments shouldn't come down is like arguing the Berlin Wall should have stayed up, both are monuments to failed shitty ideologies, and plenty of their history is preserved in fucking books.

File: tumblr_ni5erkHKQS1tsf68ao1_400.gif (2MB, 379x292px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 379x292px

Just scrap them or put them in a museum if they're even worth keeping at all. I don't know why America has so many retarded heritagefags, it's not like people complained when Nazi imagery was taken down.

>>3275912
>The berlin wall was a monument

no it was a fucking wall you moron.

>>3273903
You sound like you use the word 'problematic' a lot.

>th-they were traitors
Yeah, as though you anti-free speech anti-second amendment scum who regularly use the Constitution as toilet paper give a even half a shit about 'treachery'.
I'm not really that fussed either way, but that argument really pisses me off.

>>3275989
>muh free speech
>muh second amendment
>muh Constitution

I can't tell if this post is a parody or not.

>>3275963
>a building, structure, or site that is of historical importance or interest.
It fits the fucking definition you moron.

Can a tard non-history person get some clarification?

Wasn't the civil war, in general, mostly about states rights?
Did Lincoln make slavery illegal, or did he just try to make the south stop slavery without legal precedent which caused the chimpout?
Didn't, about, 5% or less of all people in America have slaves? Weren't some even black?
Does the US even compare to other countries like Portugal, the middle East, or Spain in terms of getting blacks from Africa?
Isn't there evidence that slaves were sold, not captured in Africa like some bugs bunny shit?

These may be retarded to you all, but might be surprised how few people actually know the answers to these questions.

>>3275927
It's funny, since the statues were built in the 20th century. They really aren't that historical.

>>3273903
nigger

>>3276027
>Wasn't the civil war, in general, mostly about states rights?

It was about the States rights to maintain slavery and expand the slave trade into new States. It openly says as much in the individual declarations of secession.

>Did Lincoln make slavery illegal, or did he just try to make the south stop slavery without legal precedent which caused the chimpout?

The country and the world at large was moving away from slavery and towards industrialisation anyway. The south had a chimpout because Lincoln won the election.

>Didn't, about, 5% or less of all people in America have slaves? Weren't some even black?

That sounds about accurate. But the amount percentage of total owners really doesn't matter when compared to the amount of industry that was reliant on it in the south.

>Does the US even compare to other countries like Portugal, the middle East, or Spain in terms of getting blacks from Africa?

Probably not.

>Isn't there evidence that slaves were sold, not captured in Africa like some bugs bunny shit?

That's correct. African tribes would enslave eachother and then sell them to Europeans and Americans. The majority of African slaves overall were actually kept in Africa.

>>3275999
Not an argument.
Why are the same people who wipe their ass with the constitution suddenly care about 'treachery' especially now that they're moving on people like Washington and Jefferson.
This is America's cultural revolution, an orgy of iconoclasm, and the people partaking in it are far more treacherous to American ideals than the Confederates were.

>>3273046
It's always been been about hating whites. The fact that these statues are csa are just the justification they use. This is about their race envy of whites

>>3276149
It's not an argument because he wasn't arguing.

I'm not anti-free speech nor am I anti-second amendment, yet I still think Confederate monuments should be moved.

So now that your generalization is btfo, do you have an actual argument?

>>3273903
If you're not any of those things you are wilfully ignorant.

>>3274483
Really? Because I see alot of nigger with wild hair losing their shit over something that has been up for half a century.

>>3274652
The battlecry of the trigger leftist.

>>3274580
What's the problem? It's exists.

>>3273046
If they were put up after the civil war (1860s-1880s) they're fine and should stay as all Confederate veterans were pardoned and became Americans again.
If they were put up after WWI and WWII by KKK affiliates to increase sympathy to the cause they should be moved off public property and into museums. By legal means.
t. knower

>>3276193
>filling your life with brainlet tier hero worship romanticism and hatred of others because Plato told you to

lel

>>3275159
I'd just laugh my arse off.

>>3276192
Yes, the second half of my comment, you dunce.

>>3275159

imagine if gamestop erected a monument dedicated to the employee that got maced by chris chan because he got triggered over a display of sonic with blue arms

>>3273063
this right here. It's the best compromise possible right now. Both sides walk away with something. A completely reasonable trade off.

File: 1502301730183.png (136KB, 312x288px) Image search: [Google]

136KB, 312x288px

>>3273046
>be Joan of Arc
>have nothing to do with racism or slavery
>still get your statues vandalized
What did they mean by this?

>>3274629

If there's headstones and grave markers, then they ARE public displays.

>>3274639

>please ignore all those red banners and hammers and sickles. We just don't like Nazis and have no other agenda.

>>3274456
This basically, depending on what the locals want.
Though Lee was a symbol of reconciliation, he should absolutely be left alone.

Removing historical objects because you don't agree with it is retarded.
But again this is americans we're talking about

>>3273136
>disadain for plebs
too intelligent for me

It would have made sense to tear them down 150 years ago. Doing it now is retarded and wrong, and creates a dangerous precedent.

>>3274624
dumb post senpai, not everyone left of you is a gommie

>>3273046
Destroying any statue is fucking gay

Having statues of people who started a civil war in your country, in front of government buildings, is pretty gay aswell


The answer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-abUtRbUS_U

Reminder that "it's just a statue, why get so mad about it" is a childish, hypocritical, and retarded argument that brings nothing useful into the conversation.

>>3276679
Ironically Lee was staunchly against any monuments to the Confederacy precisely because he predicted this shit would happen.

>>3276741
There weren't any 150 years ago. They were placed in the 2oth century to protest blacks getting rights.

>>3276789
Stop talking out of your ass. The removed New Orleans statue was built in 1884. Also, building statues to protest blacks? Is this what they teach you in school? Because it's stupid and wrong

I'm in favor of anything that makes Dixiecuckolds chimp out. Baptist churches should be outlawed, too. Ban grits while you're at it.

>>3276755
>waving communist flags
>not communists

File: 5751ab9a185cc.image.jpg (110KB, 990x895px) Image search: [Google]

110KB, 990x895px

>>3276679
>depending on what the locals want
Exactly this.
A dozen or so Californians coming down to Alabama and kicking up a stink over something they clearly don't understand is not proof of popular movement.

>>3276549
Anglos disguised as African-Americans, the brits are at it again

>>3273770
If the problem is the material, spend a lot of money with marble and we now have a solution to the problem.
Also, no need to rebuild the Lenin statue with Marble. Totalitarians have no place in this continent other than the delusioned hearts of the weak common man seeking help and hope for a better future.

>>3276202
Cultural Marxism is a meme. What exists is the use of the Cultural Hegemony strategy to build a strong base for the acts of subversion which will happen during, to the intelectual and entertainment elites, and after to the general population backed up with a authority argument since now the intellectual elites, specially in humanities, will push for your claims

File: 965f4c806dcdbae3e662fdf28a697aeb.jpg (116KB, 500x750px) Image search: [Google]

116KB, 500x750px

>>3273046
Strange my thread got 404'd a few days ago

>>3274886
Sounds like crap most of the time regardless of what race the artist is.

>>3275519
>Neo-Confederates
Worshiping traitors to your nation and crying "de South will rise again" is equally as bad as racial supremacists.

>>3275569
The Emancipation Proclamation came about when the war had already begun and only effected rebel States. Slave states that remained with the Union kept slavery until it abolition with the 13th amendment.

>>3276969
>Worshiping traitors

Reminder that the union couldn't even make a case to convict Jefferson Davis of treason.

>>3275531

Vietnam vets were fighting so a bunch of wealthy elites who collaborated with the French and their puppet dictators could keep monopolizing the country's wealth after independence. They might not be traitors to America's government but they sure as hell were traitors to its founding principles.

It was North Vietnam which offered elections to unify the country, and South Vietnam's government which declined.

>>3273046
I wasn't aware that 20 years had passed since the confederate statues were torn down.

>>3273159
>It should be up to the community ti decide what each individual statue says about them and if they like what it says. No history will be lost if they take them down, and racism won't suddenly make a comeback if they let them stay.
So you're proposing something reminiscent of
a survey. That won't work because people opposing will always veto the final result whatsoever

>>3277002
There will be no US to speak of in 20 years might as well talk now

>>3274915
Watch the HBO series then, it's pretty entertaining.

>>3277007
I wasn't really proposing anything. My point was that people outside of those communities shouldn't get much of a say in it.

Reminds me of the Taliban smashing ancient Buddha statues.

Reminds me of the Chinese Cultural Revolution with the Red Guard running around Beijing tearing history down.

It's sick, disgusting and terrifying.

Any decent /his/torian should recognize the historical precedents listed above and be shocked and appalled.

>>3273055
I 100% agree
Destroying representations of an idea because you oppose it is not something that represents freedom of expression

If it is federal land do as you please and rip it down if you want

Replace them all with Sherman statues.

>>3273046
I would say, remove them. Then place the statues with historic significance into museums, while the statues that were only made as a figurative middle finger to blacks be melted down and remade into new works of art.

No, we shouldn't.

Whether we like it or not, the Civil War happened, and it helps humans to have a physical representation of things to remember things. Especially history or spiritual things, things that are hard to grasp with our very physically inclined minds. That's why Catholics pray the rosary, it gives us something to hold on to.

Also, these are mostly monuments to the lost soldiers, you know, the ones that died horrible deaths (mostly, around 50% of deaths were directly from musketry around 5% were from cannons, and the rest were "unknown", meaning disease or they got lost or eaten and then died, or disease. Not great deaths). It's not like the Union was going "Please, don't make me kill you, we just want blacks freed!" and the southerners were all going "What, you mean niggers? Fuck niggers, I don't want them free, hahahahaha", and then they got shot and said "OH NO NOW NIGGERS WILL BE FREE NOOOO".

They were people. Human beings. Whether we want to admit that to ourselves or not.

And I question whether the people who jerk off to these statues getting torn down are considering that in 100 years they will be considered just as backwards as these people in some shape or form.

Of course they don't, they're arrogant. They believe that they have the final answer when the truth is, there is no final answer. Their statues will get torn down just as quickly as these peoples.

And the problem is, it makes me have to sympathise with modern-day nazis and racists. I don't want to do that. I'm sympathising with people from 150 years ago that didn't know better because they grew up where it was okay to have slaves, and they fought a war against, what they considered (and somewhat rightfully so) to be a tyrannical government.

And as Donald Trump said, it's a slippery slope. There are already people calling for Washington statues to be torn down. After all, he owned slaves.

It's almost as if all these people want to do is feel important and revolutionary.

Sure, let's take down statues. We could also destroy museums, who needs all that old crap? Let's build Starbucks there instead, it would have free wifi! And why not burn all books? Who reads books anyway, they're lame! Let's just fill libraries with comics, everyone deserves to know the latest feats of Superman.
Culture is so boring. I wish I was home playing Overwatch instead of listening to a lecture at college!

>>3277229
>while the statues that were only made as a figurative middle finger to blacks

Why do liberals repeat this meme ad nauseam. Honoring veterans is perfectly normal and southerners put up these statues at the same time northerners were putting up statues of union vets.

>>3276919

Well who's going to pay for it?

Certainly not the government, they have better things to do.

If the Daughters of the Confederacy want to replace the statues with museum worthy marble pieces, all the more power to them.

>>3273046
No, they are pretty

>>3277493
Liberals are unable to comprehend honouring the dead. Everything must be reduced to a political motive.

>>3277595

Liberals just have black dicks on the brain 24/7

File: stonemountain-splc2[1].jpg (286KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

286KB, 1280x720px

>sips ice tea

File: Afua-Hirsch-.jpg (86KB, 1200x630px) Image search: [Google]

86KB, 1200x630px

>>3273046

If I was British, pic related would turn me into a white supremacist. That disgusting mongrel wants Nelson's column pulled down, she even insinuates that a statue of an oppressed black person should be on display.

Sickening that a filthy foreigner like her can openly destroy British history without anyone calling her out.

File: RHODES-master768[1].jpg (136KB, 768x512px) Image search: [Google]

136KB, 768x512px

>>3277610
they want to take down Cecil Rhodes too.

The man responsible for the Rhode Scholarship. Which allows ungrateful little shits to attend oxford.

They already removed his statue in south africa.

>>3277610
>foreigner
She has British citizenship, was raised in London and her father is British.

She is British.

>>3277616
>We must find new lands from which we can easily obtain raw materials and at the same time exploit the cheap slave labor that is available from the natives of the colonies. The colonies would also provide a dumping ground for the surplus goods produced in our factories.

>Africa is still lying ready for us, it is our duty to take it. It is our duty to seize every opportunity of acquiring more territory and we should keep this one idea steadily before our eyes: that more territory simply means more of the Anglo-Saxon race, more of the best, the most human, most honorable race the world possesses

Gee I wonder why people wouldn't approve of his statue.

>>3273053
Even the statues of Stalin?

>>3277629
Slavery was abolished in the colonies two decades before Rhodes was born.

>>3277642
And?

>>3275123
People always defend Lee by saying he was against slavery but that makes him worse in my eyes. Low life scumbag who knew what he fought for was wrong and lacked the conviction to "betray" his homestate.

>>3277653
so Rhodes couldn't have been literal in his use of the word.

>>3277657
there were slave owners and white supremacists on both sides.

I doubt there was a more than a hanful of Confederate generals that fought purely for the reason of keeping their personal slaves. Most just fought to protect their homeland.

The real villans are the state level political elites that caused secession to happen.

File: 1479017273016.png (660KB, 1106x1012px) Image search: [Google]

660KB, 1106x1012px

>>3276878
So far, nobody in the thread has said they're a communist. Having views ever so slightly left of centre is not communism. Nobody is espousing its values.

Thinking that everyone is waving communist flags when they are provably not - and unless you can point to the bad man who's a gommie then this is true -
probably means you are here to shitpost about DIRTY COMMIES1!! and won't be convinced because you huffed too much /pol/ jenkem lately.

Cultural marxism is a catchy buzzword used by r_td folk and rightaboos in order to draw comparisons between people putting up with other people's shit; and political ideologies they don't like. This is retarded, as the two are entirely unrelated and tolerance and political ideology have zero (0) connection. Only dipshit mental gymnastics allow you to connect 'tolerance' with 'openness' as opposed to it just being what it is; the ability to deal with shit you don't like.

Here is your (you). Shoo shoo, stormnigger.

>>3277621
She is not British, I have British DNA, she is of African heritage, and with the name Hirsch, she has German African heritage. She is a nationalized foreigner, she is not an ETHNIC BRITON, she will never be a real Brit, she should be sacked.

>>3277678
>she has German African heritage
It gets worse, her father doesn't have German heritage, he's a German JEW. Also, that stupid whore wasn't even born in Britain, she was born in Norway. How can such a foreigner be allowed to undermine British history and society? If I was in govermnet, I would put pressure on her with MI*, as she is a threat to national security.

>>3277604
>sips sweet tea*

>>3277669
Why do yoy anti white shills think /his/ is your safespace?

File: 1461040718263.jpg (8KB, 200x193px) Image search: [Google]

8KB, 200x193px

>>3277669
So far, nobody in the thread has said they're a nazi. Having views ever so slightly right of centre is not national socialism. Nobody is espousing its values.

Thinking that everyone is waving nazi flags when they are provably not - and unless you can point to the bad man who's a nazi then this is true -
probably means you are here to shitpost about DIRTY NAZIS1!! and won't be convinced because you huffed too much /leftypol/ jenkem lately.

Nazi is a catchy buzzword used by /leftypol/ folk and leftaboos in order to draw comparisons between people putting up with other people's shit; and political ideologies they don't like. This is retarded, as the two are entirely unrelated and tolerance and political ideology have zero (0) connection. Only dipshit mental gymnastics allow you to connect 'tolerance' with 'openness' as opposed to it just being what it is; the ability to deal with shit you don't like.

Here is your (you). Shoo shoo, commienigger.

>>3277678
>She is not British, I have British DNA,
Alright, I guess? Nobody cares about your insecurities.

What makes DNA "British"?

>she is of African heritage,
>and with the name Hirsch, she has German African heritage
Which definition of "heritage" are you using? Is it a purely cultural variable to you?

>She is a nationalized foreigner, she is not an ETHNIC BRITON,
Under which circumstances do you consider someone to be ethnicall British? Earlier, you mentioned your insecurities. Is having "British DNA" always a sufficient criterium?

>>3277725
>It gets worse, her father doesn't have German heritage, he's a German JEW.
Why does he not have German heritage just because he's Jewish? You can be both Jewish and have a German heritage.

>Also, that stupid whore
Why is she a "whore"?

>wasn't even born in Britain, she was born in Norway.
So, it all depends on where one was born? Why? How does that impact on being British, especially in relation to where one grew up?

>>3273046
>>3273053
Daily reminder that the confederate monuments where built during the Civil rights era to scare black people.

>>3273046
Of the generals?
Depends on the generals and what they did. There's no reason to keep up statues of Forrest

On the soldiers?
Absolutely. it's literally what Lincoln wanted.

>>3273770
>there's not enough museums in the US to put them in.
There are about 5,000 museums in the United States.

File: IMG_0251.jpg (44KB, 490x497px) Image search: [Google]

44KB, 490x497px

>>3273046
Put them in a southern history museum in Atlanta, Georgia. Normies who don't understand the signifgance will stop caring because the statues are saved. People who do understand the significance are probably going to be ass blasted KKK and Dixie fags so who cares what they think.

>>3273089
I work in a museum and we have an old 1914 'friendship' quilt with swastikas on it before the Nazi's took that and used it for their symbol. The text panel explains what it is but no one decided to read it and instead complain about it until we had to take it down.

tldr people don't read signs

>>3273667
Lin-Manuel Miranda, the guy who played Hamilton, isn't even black. He's Puerto Rican.

>>3278314
>2000 year old historic structures of ancient civilizations is in anyway comparable to Confederate statues put up in the 20th century

Lmaoing at your life

>>3278314
nice false equivalence

>>>/pol/

Keep them up, but in front of each one add a statue of a large, muscular black man fucking that Confederate figure's wife.

>>3278437
>>3278452
>>3278490
>this is your brain on leftism

>>3278959
>opinion on participation trophies related to hat
>false dichotomy accidentally implies the opposition point
>singularly derivative

saw this on facebook, sassy.

>>3277901
>There's no reason to keep up statues of Forrest

Why? Forrest was a cool guy. Fav Confederate after Jackson and Longstreet.

File: 357D8D06-233D-488A-8824-A6BE55F1663E-3258-000001BE5DB36903.jpg (81KB, 387x766px) Image search: [Google]

81KB, 387x766px

>>3278563
t. You

>>3278563
>This is your brain when you are so entrenched in your ideology that you cannot process humor.

>>3273063
Yea I'm fine with this

>>3273063
>>3279042
No, only replace them with Catholic Saints. Fuck your political bullshit

File: 1478598074265.jpg (29KB, 400x361px) Image search: [Google]

29KB, 400x361px

>le put them in a museum
for what purpose? what fucking historical significance do they have? who would pay to see some 60 year old civil rights-era statue made by a bunch of racists?

melt them down for the bronze so they can actually be useful instead of eyesores

eh I personally wouldn't tear them down but I'm not gonna get that worked up to keep them there. DESU I probably wouldn't want them there if I were black.

They should definitely not be destroyed though, they should either stay put or moved to a museum.

>>3279058
because one day they'll be 2000 year old statues from ancient America you dumb fuck

>just destroy all historical artifacts made by cultures that ever did evil things senpai

oh wait the museums would be empty

>>3279083
oh yeah aint don't touch the big ass confederate mount rushmore relief on Stone Mountain in Georgia, it's too big to move and erasing it would be a shame

Being familiar with the slippery slope, I know once the statues are gone they'll start to go after the slave-owning founding fathers who happen to be on Mount Rushmore.

Funny thing is they won't be able to figure out a good way to obliterate them cheaply. No stonemason would work on it these days to turn George Washington into George Washington Carver.

It would get a lot of traction though. Someone just needs to pour a few hundred gallons worth of red paint over the monument and that will be a battle cry for years.

Kinda like

>black_lives_mater[SIC].jpg

>>3273189
>50th and 100th anniversary of the civil war not even mentioned
American lefties are so fucking retarded it's not even funny.

Also no, confederate statues shouldn't be brought down. Next they will bring down Washington and Jefferson statues because the were slave owners. The Union was as racist as the confederacy anyway so it's not a matter of racism.

>>3273046
It's probably troublesome to have people's thoughts and culture diverge from the mainstream control.
If you have statues that make people ask "why" or "who", and the answer ends up undoing the conditioning (for the logical thinker), then you can't get that wonderful post-truth society that is so desired by the powerful.

>>3273084
They already call the white head eagle bald head eagle.

>>3273055
>I'm no sympathizer to the traitorous confederate cause, and I think the muh southern pride are a bunch of faggots.


You do know that the war of independence would also be considered treason?

>>3279101
by that logic we could put anything in a museum because one day it'll be old. no one cares about preserving these statues except for rednecks and /pol/tards. it would be a waste of a museum's money to keep them because they're not interesting.

>>3277754
but nobody is saying you're a nazi, and you are saying everybody else is a communist, so that 'no-u' level answer doesn't even make any sense.

you're a dipshit /pol/ user who needs to stop shitting up the thread or leave, preferably both

>B-BUT STORMNIGGER
Stormnigger is in reference to Stormfront, that other cultural hub of "MUH WHITE NAYSHUN".

File: IMG_1345.jpg (141KB, 900x674px) Image search: [Google]

141KB, 900x674px

Pity him, this dupe of dream,
Leader of the herd again
Only in his daft old brain,
Once again the bull supreme
And bull enough to bear the part
Only in his tameless heart.
Pity him that he must wake;
Even now the swarm of flies
Blackening his bloodshot eyes
Bursts and blusters round the lake,
Scattered from the feast half-fed,
By great shadows overhead;
And the dreamer turns away
From his visionary herds
And his splendid yesterday,
Turns to meet the loathly birds
Flocking round him from the skies,
Waiting for the flesh that dies.

>>3273134
Agree. This country is getting shittier and shittier. Soon the hard working white male who created this place will be the most disrespected person. Fml and I'm not even racist. I'm right though.

>>3273159
Yo. Are you retarded? Did you go to school and listen at all?
>has no historical value
>is incredibly retarded

>>3273835
Lol no. You lefts are wacko as shit. Completely 2 different things. Nazis literally compare to nothing. They were pure evil. Idk why you fags compare everything you whine about to nazis lol. Jump off a bridge

Those that destroy any part of their world have not found the Oikos and may never will. Iconoclasm is only suited for false gods. When one finds the Oikos, they may then realize that by standards of those without the Oikos that the entire Earth would need to be razed, scraped, left to sit and renew, for it to be cleaned of these 'triggering images'. These misguided 'revolutionaries' are no better than the Cult of Reason (yes, even considering their mass murder.)

File: 1501298843176.png (386KB, 715x401px) Image search: [Google]

386KB, 715x401px

>>3273046
No, it's a part of history

>>3279057
Honoring dead soldiers isn't political bullshit, and calming tensions is the good kind of political bullshit. Not sure why I'm even responding since this is just Cathlolic LARPing bait anyway.

File: 294CD89D-3EA3-4853-821F-C60D80CA2230.jpg (119KB, 1024x849px) Image search: [Google]

119KB, 1024x849px

We have a statue of Trajan that needs to fall, it's offensive to our Romanian (sorry Dacian) population.

Also Oliver Cromwell outside Parliament and the grave of Karl Marx at Highgate cemetery.

File: images (7).jpg (4KB, 212x218px) Image search: [Google]

4KB, 212x218px

>>3273046
No.
It's your history whether it was "morally correct" or not. You'd have to be a royal fucking idiot to give in to, even the slightest of, demands to some new age guilt infused liberalism.

>>3273046
No statues should be torn down

File: 1500346297475m.jpg (90KB, 1024x1022px) Image search: [Google]

90KB, 1024x1022px

>>3273903
It still amazes me how one board can assblast so many people. I've seen even the slightest of conservative opinions be expressed on other boards (something as small as individual empowerment) and the angriest responses of "le go back to pol" are frequented.
It can't fathom how precious you have to be in order to say that. Pathetic really.

>>3280732
Tbh I have no idea why Oliver Cromwell is still there. Always baffled me they kept him around

They only people who care about their presence at all are radical leftists, most people want them left alone.

>>3277896
>be a nigger in 1930s south
>walk around
>klan members hanging around - no problem
>police looking for excuse to shoot you - 0 fucks given
>klanners and cops teaming up - lol, ain't got time to care about that
>the dominant ethnic group thinks you're a subhuman animal - suck my cock whitey
>see a tacky robert e lee statue
>shit yourself in fear
>fall on your knees
>curl into fetal position
>lay in a pool of your own urine and tears while shivering in fear
>other black people try to help you
>they can't get close enough because the statue is too spooky
>soon the town's entire black population is lying on that street while being paralyzed by fear
>street is filled piss and shit covered blacks
>the last thing you hear before drowning in urine and tears is local whites mocking you and praising their new nigger killer statue

Put em in museums and replace with medal of honor recipient. There's plenty. If we run out of those inventors. Then authors. There's options

>>3273791
Memory is a central part of what makes a person who they are. The same with history and a place.

>>3274580
About 1/4 American sociologists self-identify as Marxist, and critical race theory (SJWism) is a fairly direct descendent of Marxism.

>>3280863
You need to provide sources.

File: 1503196278251.jpg (237KB, 1250x1570px) Image search: [Google]

237KB, 1250x1570px

>>3280791
>>3280863
>muh leftists
>muh ess jay doubleyoos

kys retards

File: 1503329420443.jpg (34KB, 402x402px) Image search: [Google]

34KB, 402x402px

millennials are triggered by everything.

>>3273903
Spooky

>>3280774

It's not even that old. 1899, and it was hugely controversial at that time.

>>3280903
>but majority of people want them gone
>only southern racists want them kept
>this happens

Yanks BTFO once again.

>>3273053
The worst part is they've moved into demanding statues of Washington and even fucking Joan of Arc be torn down. It's about erasing the sin of whiteness from history overall for them.

>>3281302
Who's demanding statues of Washington and Joan of Arc be torn down?

>>3273063
the one in charlotsville was a generic confederate soldier memorial.

they're desecrating memorials to poor drafted soldiers now.

>>3281639
It was a statue of Robert E. Lee...

The statues should either stay, or be put in a museum. The civil war wasn't strictly about slavery, it was because the south was fucked over in the government. We shouldn't see these men as racist slaveowners, but as fellow Americans. Only by accepting the past can we grow as a nation. The South wanted to free themselves of a government they saw as tyrannical, and keep their slaves. The North wanted to preserve the union. Both sides were American, American men fought and died in that war, and they should not be forgotten.

>>3273046

I would keep the ones in the former Confederate states, and let local governments decide in other places.

>>3281627
There was some shit a few days ago in New Orleans for the Joan of Arc statue. In Chicago some black activists were demanding Washington's statue be removed from Washington Park and the park renamed. Not to mention demands to tear down Jefferson statues, vandalizing the Lincoln Memorial and some retard from the Guardian saying we need to remove the "racist" monument to Nelson in London which I can only imagine is racist because Nelson is white.

>>3282476
They better not fucking take down the Nelson monument with the ships inside the streetlights.

>>3273093
A lot of them were put up in the 1950s and 60s as civil rights was getting going. Not really about muh history, more just putting Lee in front of the courthouse to remind the local blacks not to get uppity.

>>3275927
>it's not like people complained when Nazi imagery was taken down.

Except they did. But when your country is occupied by 5 major foreign powers who deem it fit to remove all imagery of a government that they utterly destroyed, you don't really get to choose what stays.

Not that I sympathize with the Nazis, and not saying that all Germans wanted/even liked the Nazis and their stuff to stay. But still, they have museums dedicated to remembering the Nazis, because your history doesn't go away when you remove al the physical evidence.

File: 1501709737845.jpg (41KB, 541x633px) Image search: [Google]

41KB, 541x633px

>>3281136
>Blacks were polled and were split down the middle with about 10% undecided

File: 1491169676071.gif (2MB, 500x459px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 500x459px

>>3278314
Destroying the physical evidence of your history with blind disregard because you don't like it.

Same argument, two wildly different ends of the spectrum.

>>3280135
no one cares about preserving these statues except for rednecks and /pol/tards. it would be a waste of a museum's money to keep them because they're not interesting.

What most people consider to be modern art is not interesting or thought-provoking. It's a sorry collection of eyesores by people whose talent is not on par with those artists whom they idolize.

Yet, modern art museums are a thing. Your argument is just plain false and baseless.

I saw someone destroyed a 200 year old Christopher Columbus monument in Chicago (i think that was the city). It made me incredibly sad

>>3277638
Do you want people to remember or forget Stalin?

>>3282514
America has a shit ton of museums devoted to the Civil War too, though. I mean they're having trouble finding museums which would take on these statues because they've all already got too much of that shit.

That's why the whole idea about erasing history is silly. America does know and nurtures its history pretty well. These statues aren't really a part of that.

>>3282476
Most of these were just random acts of vandalism or lone voices with zero traction either among the activist groups or the general populace. I'm pretty sure Washington and Jefferson are safe.

How come the police allows this things? If this would have happen in my country they would have gone straight to jail.

>>3282765
Dear god, were they trying to look tough by acting like the robbed a local luau? Unless they were too stupid to figure out how to make torches on their own.

>>3273063
Doesn't matter, they desecrate those things too. Tore down the one in Cville and defaced one here in Arizona.

>>3282490
>get proven wrong multiple times in the same thread
>ignore and repeat same narrative

show me a confederate statue placed in a prominent park in a city after the 1940s.

>>3273046
Fuck em. Of course we should remember the Civil War. That's why we preserve the battlefields as historical sites. That's why we have museums. Tearing down statues put up to make a statement against desegregation is not "forgetting our history."

Europe doesn't remember WWII and the Holocaust with fucking statues of Hitler and Göring

http://www.npr.org/2017/08/23/545435024/civil-rights-activist-argues-to-keep-confederate-monuments

>>3273055
>traitorous
I'm guessing the founding fathers were traitorous also to you no?

File: 1503179975333.jpg (79KB, 800x400px) Image search: [Google]

79KB, 800x400px

No, why would we remove them? Pretty soon BLM and far left morons will call to tear down Jefferson, Lincoln, and Washington.

BLM is already calling Lincoln racist

>>3273903
fuck your shitty bait anon

>>3274650
BUT DEY WAS WYTE RAYCIS NASHLISTS SENPAI

File: 5108142+_081ce28749f0b0591cace1affec690e6.jpg (110KB, 350x350px) Image search: [Google]

110KB, 350x350px

>>3274894
>Moving statues out of the public eye is not damnatio memoriae

>>3283337
>Comparing the Confederacy to the Nazis
I'm sorry, when did Confederates try to exterminate millions of people?

>>3280918
it was mostly to alienate the irish, which is a british tradition.

File: 1280px-Charlottesville__Unite_the_Right__Rally_(35780274914)[1].jpg (416KB, 1280x960px) Image search: [Google]

416KB, 1280x960px

>>3283414
>Not comparing the Confederacy with Nazis
bruh

>>3273055
>because he was once played by a black guy
He's Puerto Rican, he's not black.

That being said i agree with a lot of people say. If people don't want it on public property then put it in a musem or on private property. I don't believe in tearing down statues.'

>>3280117
Yeah but the difference is we won that one. Vae Victis motherfucker.

>>3277638
Especially statues of Stalin.

Shit, having a statue of Hitler really wouldn't be that much of an issue.

As much as I despise confederate larpers,
It breaks my heart to see Robert E Lee torn down

>>3284119
Me on the far left in the second image. It's not rape though, she just likes it rough

>>3283389
Yes

It was a blatant act of rebellion against the English crown for the colonies to declare independence. This isn't even an argument. This is a pathetic attempt to re-spin the Confederates into revolutionary heroes instead of the reactionary retards that they were.

Next question.

>>3273046
No, the people wanting to tear down the statues would have more of an impact by erecting an opposing statue in the vicinity of the one which they wish to tear down

>>3273240
then let's take down native american statues too

File: what an injustice.png (361KB, 600x690px) Image search: [Google]

361KB, 600x690px

>>3284159
>not ironing your flag

>>3273046
if they go they should go legally, and they can be placed in museums and whatnot. It is justifiable as these things were mostly built in 1890-1910 at the advent of the Jim Crow era as a fuck you to black people primarily, pretty strange to still have such thingss before law courts, it does not imply a justice system fair for all.

>>3282765
Tbh the shit that they try to pass for coffee at Starbucks is an offense towards coffee and people that willingly drink it should be send to death camps.

>>3273046
Every single statue should be torn down. Statues are sinful.

>>3276340
Highly underrated post.

Like others have said, I think it should be left up to the communities that pay taxes for the upkeep of these statues.

If the community votes that they want it taken down and a museum doesn't want it, try to sell it or put it in one of those rental storage yards.

Overall I think statues are a bad means of communicating history in modern times anyway. Most of the people who see these statues either don't recognize the person or already feel they know enough about him to justify their worldview.

>>3284626
No, they aren't.

>>3273046
There's two types of confederate statues.

Ones that honor the fallen enemy (by the union members) as honorable and ones that honor the slavers, racists, anti-civil rights, etc.

The former is of historical importance as it marks the historicity of the civil war. Its a historical piece in restoring peace with the southern states who lost. This was done right after civil war. So its of historical importance to keep these.

The later is grandeur of delusion created by hundred years of pride in slavery, anti-civil rights movement, racism, etc. These statues have no historical value. Coincidentally, these statues are the ones that have been propping up over the hundred years or so, not so as to honor the dead but to honor the current racist narrative their state is happy to indulge in.

>>3284159
>Libertarians are Nazis now because some autist flew a Nazi flag next to a Gadsden flag

Oy vey

>>3284200
>we

>>3273055
absolutely this

coming into this pretty late but, ive always held if you get rid of a statue dont destroy it. Make a museum for old statues that arnt suitable anymore with plaques explaining why.

You get to make the changes you want and people who like the statue can still see it with the information on it readily available.

>>3285643
woah..................................................................................................... really makes me.......................................................................................think.......................red and........... black............. whoa....................

File: commies.png (134KB, 209x490px) Image search: [Google]

134KB, 209x490px

KEEP YOUR FILTHY CULTURAL REVOLUTIONARY HANDS OF SOLDIER'S MEMORIALS YOU FUCKS
I can understand making a concession in good faith, i would be willing to remove statues to architects of secession (not fighting men, but the actual politicians who seceded over slavery, as well as confederate symbolism like flags on state capitol grounds) but attacking memorials to soldiers is just plain wrong.
Do NOT appease these people who want them removed, they don't care about what's right and wrong, they want to play out their black identitarian, marxist bullshit all across the US. These savages are cut from the same cloth as the Red Guard of China who exhumed the bodies of dead emperors, and vandalized Confucius' grave. A history board should be WELL aware of what going on.

>>3282765
>that's offensive!
and it'a also perfectly legal, just in bad taste

i know, it might be hard to disagree with something and NOT want it stopped with the muzzle of a gun.

>>3285746

Yes yes if trump is impeached the alt right will march on washington and kill the communists who are controlling the government there.

Do you realise how insane you sound?

>>3285764
>Yes yes if trump is impeached the alt right will march on washington and kill the communists who are controlling the government there.
That's not what I said, that's a strawman, and you're a faggot.

>Do you realise how insane you sound?
Buddy, have you been missing out on all the red fists and flags in their ranks? Are you unaware of the RevLefts tendency for iconoclasm, from the Paris Commune to Red China? Why would you pretend this magically couldn't happen? What do you need as proof? They're ALREADY tearing down shit.

>>3285785

Its some selfimportant posing faggots with trendy flags, not Red Dawn you hyperbolic tard. Just like Paris '68 the vast majority of them will go on take a position in daddies company and exploit the poor working class.

>>3285746
This. The other side isn't arguing in good faith. They are Year 0 cultural revolutionaries and as such should never be appeased.

If there was any good faith compromise could be agreed on, but as you say, they will never stop.

>>3285874
That is even worse. Destroying your own cultural heritage to appease the worthless children of the super rich? Shows how the West has managed to create a governing ideology that is the worst of all worlds.

>>3285901

This whole shit is blown out of proportion like NK's saber rattling, its been going on for 50 years and summer is a slow news cycle

>>3285874
>not Red Dawn you hyperbolic tard
i didn't say red dawn, you fucking downie, just what sort of people they are. I don't know why you would say they AREN'T this way, they themselves will happily tell you they are.

please neck yourself, i don't even know what you mean to accomplish here

File: IMG_0137.jpg (250KB, 960x720px) Image search: [Google]

250KB, 960x720px

>>3273046
I don't care, most of them were made as propaganda long after reconstruction and offer little historical value.
However, the fascists using "muh heritage" as an excuse to be fascists and their supporters should be torn down. As they are insidious, have a political philosophy based inequality and authoritarianism, and cannot be allowed to have a foothold or else the cancer will spread. If you're an asshole, you deserve to be treated like an asshole. They aren't harmless practicers of free speech, they are needlessly propagating unnecessary ethnic strife because of their autistic, and anti-libertarian beliefs.

>>3285965
that's not how political freedom works, you gay fuck

i get to do things you don't agree with as long as they are legal, and there shouldn't be a thing you can do about it

>>3285965
>MUH FASCISM
how long will you fucks scream this word while you march with communist banners? Have y'all no self-awareness?

>>3285975
>I should get to do immoral things without social repercussions because the nanny state lets me do it.
Sure kid
Legality is not equatable morality. Free speech is a pointless concept when you don't recognize an authority capable of legitimately taking it away"""granting it""". Wright an wrong are what's important. Talk shit get hit, you can do whatever you want as long as you aren't being a dick.

>>3285965
>they are needlessly propagating unnecessary ethnic strife
no, that would be the poeple that couldn't leave another's monuments to their dead alone.
This isn't KKK WHITE SUPREMACIST NAZIS TEAR DOWN MLK MEMORIAL, this is literally "mob of negros and communists go tear down a soldier's memorial".
We aren't the ones doing shit.

>>3285994
>talking about nanny-states and libertarianism while demanding an end to free speech
>Talk shit get hit, you can do whatever you want as long as you aren't being a dick.
so i guess i can plow my dodge into a crowd of non-conformists to my ideology now?
and when i we all decide that YOU'RE the dick, regardless of how YOU feel?

File: IMG_0088.png (242KB, 750x1334px) Image search: [Google]

242KB, 750x1334px

>>3285981
>you fucks
>communist banners
First of all there is no group here, and the dominant political philosophy is anarchism or libertarian communism. Which hate authoritarian communism for much better reasons than you uninformed plebs do.
If you want to understand take this passage from a manual on antifacist action.

>>3286013
My ideaology has nothing to do with the subjugation of other people, and forming an authoritarian society based on ridged ethnic hierarchy. If fascists would mind their own business and into liberty it wouldn't be a problem.

>>3286002
It will be a great day for humanity when the monuments of the left are torn down and their ideology tossed in the dustbin of history, however.

>>3286002
>we aren't the ones doing shit
>we only want to strip the liberty from other people to statisfy our racialist autism.

>>3286019
>>3286028
neck yourself you cunt, only a fucking idiot would believe your lies of a utopia of the horror-show of a track record you murderous faggots have.

>pleb
oy vey how classist

>>3286040
Solid argument bubber
You people are literally retarded

>>3286039
>>we only want to strip the liberty from other people
fucking proofs? you aren't arguing with some Klansmen here, just a constitutionalist.
Consider for a moment that you don't have to be a fascist to disagree with your shitty positions.
but of course your marxist movement hinges on the belief that only the most extreme right winger could ever be opposed to your bullshit.

>>3286039
>Says this with a straight face while the globalist left is literally restricting free speech in the manner of a desperate tyrant destroying printing presses and burning books.

>>3286040
>the horror-show of a track record you murderous faggots have
That anarchists and libertarian communists have?
Ffs you must know absolutley nothing about political philosophy and it's history.

>>3286051
>the globalist left?
You mean the corporate elite? That's neoliberalism buddy and it has nothing to do with some arbitrary left/right boundary. Ffs what do you think antifa was doing at occupy Wall Street? Lmao.

>>3286053
>>3286044
>THIS TIME IT WILL BE DIFFERENT
lol nobody with a brain actually accepts this shit as sane
>muh, muh good communists

>>3286053
every case of libertarian communism also ends in a shitshow, they always start with these liberationist notions, from the Paris Commune to Lenin, it always ends in a shit-ton of murder.

File: IMG_0125.jpg (76KB, 473x750px) Image search: [Google]

76KB, 473x750px

>>3286046
>your marxist movement hinges on the belief that only the most extreme right winger could ever be opposed to your bullshit.
First of all I'm very far off from a Marxist. I am a mutualist and ecological anarchist. Antifa has no central dogma apart from anti fascism, nor is it a populist movement.
>the belief that only the most extreme right wingers.
Far from the truth, liberals and "constitutionalists" are just as bad as the fascists they indirectly support.

>>3286061
>>3286053
>>3286044
>>3286039
>>3286019
>>3285994
>>3285965
thread, take notice that the iconoclastic fucks who want to tear down a soldier's memorial are literal fucking communists

File: ANTIFA.jpg (165KB, 1294x852px) Image search: [Google]

165KB, 1294x852px

>>3286081
>Far from the truth, liberals and "constitutionalists" are just as bad as the fascists they indirectly support.
i pray you get shot trying to pull some dumb shit on a veteran
i can't ask for much more than you are doing, the whole thread can see that you are against the US Constitution.

>>3286073
>Lenin
>Paris commune
LOL. Those are both very, very far from libertarian communism. And are mutually hated by all lib soc's and lib com's If you want to see a historical precedent see revolutionary Catalonia, which did end in violence, not because of internal strife but because Spanish ultra right wing reactionaries and Bolshevik traitors teamed up to destroy them in the Spanish civil war.
You have no idea what you are talking about
>>3286064
You too.

>>3286106
>historical precedent see revolutionary Catalonia
go murder some more nuns back in Europe, we have an ocean between us and y'all, fuck

>>3286096
>i can't ask for much more than you are doing, the whole thread can see that you are against the US Constitution.
No shit, being an indoctrinated retard is the only reason to be in favor of such an authoritarian document designed not to grant liberty, but to outline a few liberties not to be taken away.
>get shot pulling shit on a veteran
I don't concern myself with antifacist action, I mostly manage the mega externalities of corporations.

>>3286130
>mega externalities
*negative*

>>3286114
>go murder some nuns
Much of that was propaganda spread by the franconist press, to make people okay with killing innocent people. Even if people are violent and everyone does rotten things. You've already displayed a clear lack of understanding, why bother trying?

>>3286086
Have any reason to go along with this post?
>anarchists are communists

File: laughing european women.jpg (48KB, 272x272px) Image search: [Google]

48KB, 272x272px

>>3286130
>No shit, being an indoctrinated retard is the only reason to be in favor of such an authoritarian document designed not to grant liberty, but to outline a few liberties not to be taken away.
ahhaha I'm done here

>>3286151
>Much of that was propaganda spread by the franconist press
>it's n-not true

>>3286166
>ahhaha I'm done here
Because you have no argument besides appealing to the divine authority of the constitution?
>>it's n-not true
Like I said that doesn't matter and has nothing to do with the way libertarian communism functions. Why am I even defending it? I'm not, I was telling anon why he didn't know what he was talking about. I'm not even a communist lol, nor am I a peasant revolutionary in early 20th century Catalonia.

>>3286081
>phoneposting (probably from trendy local café)
>toxic masculinity
tippiest toppiest of keks

>>3286438
i was about 3 feet away from my computer which i am now on
periodically checking back in to see if there are any more retards to call out for being retarded.
there is no method i will not employ to crush my internet opponents. Just be glad its my keyboard and not the warp speed fury of my fists and roundhouse kicks.... PUSSY

File: 1485379487328.jpg (13KB, 584x426px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 584x426px

>>3286493
I would crush your puny bourgeois bones and make lumpen soup of them soy boy dress wearing P O O F

>>3282622
That's a good fucking question.

>>3286503
sure thing kid. youre just a pasty internet larper and im out there there doing serious crimes every other day. I even shadow box once in a while not to mention i am physically imposing and my bones are made out of steel from the repeated accidents and beatings i sustained as a teenager.
i would reck you into a million pizzas

>>3286533
*knocks over bin*
who's the big man now
you're a literal infant compared to me in regard to physicality

>>3286540
>you're a literal infant compared to me in regard to physicality
say that to my face if you can reach it. i can tell you are a pot bellied manlet by the way you type

>>3286545
I'm a Greek god and you're a skirt wearing sissy who probably frequents /v/ steam friend threads

wear salmon pink when I fuck you gay boy

>>3286557
i only play super smash bros melee, like a real man. ill beat your ass there too.
Have fun fucking me when my sphincter, the super human result of 12 years of weighted kegel exercises and cycles of rectally administered anabolic steroids crushes every blood vessel in your cock