Facism

>>3269481
>What is facism?
read its description
>Are the people being called fascist in today's day and age actually fascist?
some of them definitely are
others not so much
you would have to bring up specific names to say whether they are or not

>>3269506
Are republicans fascist ?
My teacher told me the GOP is the grand ol fascist party. When I asked her what facism was she said bigotry.

Literally everything is fascism.

>>3269513
On the off chance you aren't baiting, no, your teacher is retarded

>>3269481
Read the five stages of fascism by Robert Paxton. I don't agree with his conclusion about what the "American Fascist" would look like, but he does nail down some common characteristics of what makes a fascist regime. In the short, no, hardly anyone is actually a fascist. No one is creating a secret police, no one is creating parallel institutions to replace the ones we have, no one is combining the powers of the executive and legislative branches.

>>3269521
I wish I was baiting. I don't even browse 4chan anymore like that but this week at school made me return. I asked you guys because /pol/ is useless. I genuinely do not know anything about history or politics; I'm in school for business and compete in amateur boxing during my free time. So this isn't really like subject . On that same note, I could tell my professor was speaking like an emotional woman, so I gotta ask someone wtf all this facism stuff is about today.

>>3269481
Who's that?

>>3269521
My man don't even give him the time of day, in case you forgot it's summer for high school and middle school students

File: WW2 ideology for dummies.png (98KB, 1420x985px) Image search: [Google]

98KB, 1420x985px

Basically its an ideology based off the collective betterment of the state at the expense of the individuals freedoms.
Every activity done by an individual must be for the state (or in Nazism the Aryan Race).
The state is hierarchical usually with a dictator at the top who embodies the very essence of the state, next you have warriors who fight for the state as the states very existence is a struggle against other states (or in Nazism other races namely Jews who destroy culture which only Aryans can make but also gypsies, blacks, ect).
Gender also plays a big role as women must have babes to create more warriors and mothers for the state (in Nazism this is emphasized tenfold)
In contrast to Communism, Fascism can have private business but unlike Liberalism businesses must be guided by the state that ensures it acts in the best interests of the state. In short it is between Capitalism and Communism in regards to the means of production.
Tbqh Fascism is shit.

>>3269537
Sounds like the ideal form of governance honestly

>>3269527
What you're teacher said is not really defendable but what I can say is that the republican party is more hard right now than it used to be, if you can even call it a real party anymore.

>>3269552
Well unless you saw it in action

>>3269573
And the Democrats are more hard left than they used to be.
A Republican clone of Bill Clinton with the exact same political positions would probably be called a fascist by the media.

>>3269552
>no freedoms of speech, expression, information, ect
>get killed if you aren't part of aryan race, western European, Mediterranean, or far east Asian
>get serialised if you have a disability or your child has a disability meaning that you carry a shitty gene (including autism far)
>can't breed with other races even if you find your waifu 4 laifu
>if you're a dude then you will go get killed fighting some sub human somewhere
>if you are a chick then you shit out babies till you die
>have to love the state even if the state is shit
>have to love the leader even though he is a right cunt
>can't be a neet
>probably get rid of luxury foods in favour of protein smoothies and lentils to ensure each subject is the the pinnacle of fitness not that it matters if you are jacked because you can't have sex with whoever you want

>>3269481
It's Hegelian collectivist capitalism that formed as a response to Marxism.

>>3269578
>>3269578
The democratic party is also not a real party anymore, it is in a factional struggle right now and the hard left does seem to hold the momentum there. But their politics really have amounted to defensive acts, it doesn't have to be hard left to do that
Not sure what you're getting at with Bill Clinton, you talking about his Third Way politics? Or just a random stab at the state of the media

>>3269589
Again. It sounds like an ideal form of governance honestly.

>>3269602
Look at this

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/01/24/dnc_chair_candidate_my_job_is_to_tell_white_people_when_to_shut_their_mouths.html

File: T5Hf29X.jpg (413KB, 850x1100px) Image search: [Google]

413KB, 850x1100px

>>3269515
>>3269481
>>3269552
>>3269600
>>3269623

>>3269623
Each to their own I suppose.

>>3269630
Nah. Fascism is the Hegelian synthesis of nationalism and Socialism

>>3269629
>candidate
again, factions

>>3269642
What would the woke media say about Bill Clinton?

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/06/17/us/the-1992-campaign-racial-issues-rapper-chided-by-clinton-calls-him-a-hypocrite.html

Hint:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/10/hillary_clinton_s_reverse_sister_souljah_moment.html

>>3269589
>being jacked to have sex with women
You're not gana make it brah

>>3269578
>And the Democrats are more hard left than they used to be.
Ahahahahaha. What is the Third Way or Clinton Democrats? Hell Obama had a perfect opportunity to be FDR 2.0 but noooooo

>>3269670
>My point being imagine getting to the literal peak of your physical and genetic self but living in a society where there are no sloots

J U S T
U
S
T

>>3269685
>wasting your hard fought gains on some undesirable, slooty gains goblins with no self respect
Again, not gana make it.

>>3269683
Do me a favor.
Go to a Democratic rally and say that "I support strong unions, a high minimum wage, but I disagree with gay marriage. Intact, strong families are important for the working class".
Or, be as hard-left as Bernie on Economics and then make a speech about the importance of being color blind and treating everyone like individuals, instead of looking at their race.

See how they react.

>>3269685
>muh dick
is not a good way of life.

>>3269578
>A Republican clone of Bill Clinton with the exact same political positions would probably be called a fascist by the media.

We already see something similar today with Trump.

>>3269481
I always thought that Zizek explained it quite well.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=FQHoGwnXpYM&ebc=ANyPxKot749owqHyY2bvHI1F2o2dXwCp8zexomlgCIon7haXe1SUOJOkbelD4QBQu1X9INLF0m7sku_xn_aBxqLUkS6Qjzl4xA

>>3269638
Nah fashitsm is banks backing authoritarianist pseudo-monarchists against Russia.

>>3269702
Identity politics =/= Class struggle

>>3269638
This. Good summary anon

>>3269481
Hard to say, since the term "fascism" kept changing throughout history.

In Ancient Rome, it basically meant "strength through unity" (or so some historians will tell you). But it's used to describe virtually any type of authoritarianism or dictatorship. The reason why you see it "thrown around" a lot is because the exact nature and definition of the word is hard to pinpoint.

>>3269809
Fascism has been a buzzword since Mussolini's time. Even fascists didn't define it.

>>3269515
>>3269552
>>3269623
>>3269702
>>3269785
subtle /pol/ is subtle

>>3269815
Uhh, okay?

>>3269654
Seems like you meant to reply to the previous post because this doesn't seem to relate to the factions in the democratic party

>>3269785
The modern left is not about class anymore.

>>3269846
Except all the commies

>>3269850
Yes, all 5 if them.

Fascism is what happened when the right appropriated nationalism and socialism in the 1920s.

>Are the people being called fascist in today's day and age actually fascist?

Mostly aren't. Libertarians, classical liberals and conservatives in the U.S., or liberal conservatives and right-wing populists in Europe, are very obviously not fascist but they are called so nonetheless.

>>3269846
I blame postmodernism

>>3269552
As do all forms of governance when on paper.

>>3269846
This is true. We can see this in the UK as well. The traditional working class areas swung right wing in our recent election (poor ex-mining areas like mansfield) whilst the richest areas of the country (Chelsea in London for example) swung to the left hard.

The middle class are now more left wing than the working class becuase left wing parties have gone full retard on identity politics and mass immigration.

>>3269481
https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1944/1944-fas.htm

>>3269846
What part of the modern left? The Clintonian moderates? The antifa anarchists? The social democrats? The working-class unionists?

What most people forget to remember is that, thanks to the miserable abortion of a system we have, each party has dozens of demographics huddling under the same umbrella. Identity politics are extremely important for progressive younger democrat college retards, but only given lipservice by crotchety boomer pseudoliberals for easy votes.

>>3269851
If by 5 you mean 88,76 millions and by all you mean registered members of Zhōngguó Gòngchǎndǎng, then you are correct.

>>3269859
The left here unironically call the UK conservatives fascist.
This is the party that legalised gay marriage and keeps mass immigration.
The modern left is fucking retarded.

File: laughing girls.jpg (2MB, 2560x1440px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2560x1440px

>>3269880
>today's China
>Communist

>>3269537
That's a really nice graph OP.

Fascism is literally just nationalistic authoritarianism.

It's not hard to understand.

>>3269895
>http://en.people.cn/206215/206216/7997750.html
Marxism-Leninism reveals the universal laws governing the development of history of human society. It analyzes the contradictions inherent in the capitalist system that it is incapable of resolving internally and shows that socialist society will inevitably replace capitalist society and ultimately develop into communist society. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels cofounded the theory of the proletarian political party, in which they expounded the basic tenets of the Marxist theory of party building and laid the theoretical basis for building the proletarian party. This constitutes the first monument of the Marxist theory of party building. In his practical work of leading the socialist revolution and construction in Russia, Lenin both adhered to the basic tenets of the Marxist theory of party building and creatively solved a series of new problems arising in the building of the proletarian party. His foremost achievement was the creation of a preliminary theory for the building of the proletarian party in office, which constitutes the second monument of the Marxist theory of party building.

Also work on your reading comprehension, mr. Animegirl. State being communist and the ruling party subscribing to communist ideology are two different things.

>>3269895
last time I checked the communists were still in power
last time I checked the free trade zones were still limited to parts of the country

File: 5145d9007fb03a1d6f9c5969b9c418414539a2378dd5316a9a193b2a9f188265.gif (206KB, 215x395px) Image search: [Google]

206KB, 215x395px

>>3269846
No fucking shit senpai

>>3269874
>implying Brexit didn't divide the working class coz of nationalism
>implying pic related didn't surge in the polls and the South due to his pro working class manifesto
>implying Kingston doesn't have a sizeable poor population
I mean pic related is more into identity politics but he doesn't forget about the class struggle. He also did some politically smart move with regards to Brexit desu

>>3269879
The one who controls big media and large companies. The modern left is capitalistic and based on identity politics. They even feel contempt for the working class.

>>3269552
The problem with fascism (and authoritarianism in general) is that it only works if the leader is literally perfect. If there was a way to insure that every fascist leader was infallible in every way, then yes, it would be perfect. However, this rarely pans out, and most fascist dictators are only good in a couple of areas (they are only human after all). This leads to two options: either he will run areas out of his expertise (and screw them up) or he will enlist others to assist him in those areas. If he chooses the latter, then it will inevitably lead to a corrupt oligarchy of individuals trying to sieze power for themselves. This is why fascist governments are so cannibalistic. While I know it doesn't always work out, history has proven that letting people mange their own affairs (with a few exceptions) will put people who actually know what they're doing in charge of industry. If you're still not convinced, read Plato's "Ion".

tldr; the people in businesses know how to run their own affairs better than dictators do

>>3269942
The left has always been antagonistic towards the working class and lower classes in general.

I'm pretty sure even Marx wrote that the Lumpenproletariat should just be annihilated by force.

>>3269945
I fail to view fascism as even a thing desu, or at least something that needs to be specifically defined as a thing, it just seems to be most governments already work more or less, and I don't say that as an edgy anarchist teenager either desu

Look at even a person like Trump theoretically he's controlled by checks and balances by the us government by on the other hand he has unilateral control over the nukes and the Marines and can do whatever he likes in theory with them. And that's not even a knock against Trump all of his predecessors had the same exact powers.

Fascism is here, it's never going away, it is simply the default organizing principle of governance.

File: ZIZEK_sexual_thoughs.jpg (29KB, 459x320px) Image search: [Google]

29KB, 459x320px

>>3269749
>snifman
>relevant

File: Alexa_Bliss_flick.gif (921KB, 498x250px) Image search: [Google]

921KB, 498x250px

>>3269903
thnx bae.

>>3269513
Wouldn't suprise me if this is true since americunts don't seem to have any standard on teachers

>>3269964
Lumpenproletariat is by definition not part of the working class.

It's the kind of people everyone is antagonistic against, except maybe for women who read about them in pink coloured books.

File: Musso7.jpg (67KB, 850x400px) Image search: [Google]

67KB, 850x400px

>>3269630
>Nazism=racism
>Nazism=fascism
>Fascism=racism

Why krauts riun everything

>>3269973
>Lumpenproletariat is by definition not part of the working class.

Yes it is.

>Lumpenproletariat is a term that was originally coined by Karl Marx to describe *the layer of the working class* that is unlikely ever to achieve class consciousness and is therefore lost to socially useful production, of no use to the revolutionary struggle, and perhaps even an impediment to the realization of a classless society.[1]

>>3269907
>Fascism is just nationalistic authoritarianism
Nice try. According to you, the Soviet Union, the British Empire, Cuba, Iran, and every other authoritarian state with strong national sovereignty is fascist.

>>3269984
Nationalism doesn't simply mean "having a state with boundaries" you fucking moron.

File: absolutely.jpg (10KB, 157x255px) Image search: [Google]

10KB, 157x255px

>>3269537
>In short it is between Capitalism and Communism in regards to the means of production.
1) State ownership of the means of production is suppose to be a transitory phase. Marx wanted to abolish political economy in general.
2)Fascism is literally just Keynesianism. Nothing about it is new.

File: 1317532650015.png (42KB, 230x280px) Image search: [Google]

42KB, 230x280px

I think I am pretty fucking autistic
Let me explain, I find the obsession with using the word facist and nazi really triggering nowadays, mostly because it just makes no sense to be used nowadays
How can there be nazis without a fucking nazi party? how can someone be a nazi if there is no germany nazi anymore?
Same with facism, is there even a facist goverment nowadays?
It's like entertainment and media demonized these terms so much that people just use it to excuse whatever shit they are throwing at someone
People say "oh words can change with time you know!" but I find it pretty fucking retarded that someone suddenly feels like changing "rape" to someone throwing garbage on the floor

There's clearly some confusion about fascism on an economic level. As someone who's studied economics, here's my take. Fascism is a mixed economic system that utilizes both socialism and capitalism depending on the state's will. The state will utilize capitalism if they approve of the output of the business in question. However, if they disapprove of the business, they will utilize socialism to control the market to their will. They will use their power to give favored businesses advantages while shutting down/regulating businesses they disapprove of. They borrow elememts from both while choosing neither, which is why fascists despise both systems. There's a reason they call themselves "third-position". It was not the fault of either system and I'm sick of socialists blaming capitalism and capitalists blaming socialism.

File: Lenin.png (235KB, 855x443px) Image search: [Google]

235KB, 855x443px

>>3270014
>2)Fascism is literally just Keynesianism. Nothing about it is new.

Then you can say Ussr "socialism" was just a socdem with guns too

>today's day and age
25 year rule

>>3269995
Nationalism generally means weighing the needs of your own people above the needs of the rest of the world. So, yes, strong national sovereignty, both geographically and legislatively, is nationalism.

>>3270014
>is just a transitory phase comrade trust me, I'm expert in dialietics.

>>3270023
I'd agree 100%. Lenin said it was the nature of the transition from state capitalism to socialism that gave the USSR the right to call itself socialist. He never claimed it was socialist. Neither did Trotsky.
As to cooperation with other socialist the Left SRs deserved being squashed.

File: icke110_01a.jpg (185KB, 1000x692px) Image search: [Google]

185KB, 1000x692px

>>3269965
This post is unironically woke.

File: head.png (17KB, 645x773px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 645x773px

wait so is fascism economically more capitalist or socialist?

>>3269749
This guy has an incredibly biased view of fascism. He casually dismisses the concerns of conservatives as either non-existent, or completely misguided, then immediately points the finger at capitalism like it's the generator of these problems, as if those problems can't exist outside of it. Then, he says that fascism is a right wing movement, yet admits at the end that fascism has left leaning ideals, but instead of actually saying that fascism leans left in certain areas, he says that fascism "took" those ideas from the left, as if the left can claim ownership of those ideas, and that the right has to take full responsibility for the creation of fascists.

>>3270030
>Nationalism generally means weighing the needs of your own people above the needs of the rest of the world

No it doesn't. Nationalism means that the state uses violence and coercion to destroy anything that doesn't conform to the current ideological manifestation of what the nation means.

E.g, if you're Saddam Hussein, you gas the Kurds, because they aren't Arabs.

>>3270042
Zizek never really says anything, literally every time I hear him say something he says two extremely polarizing things then contradicts them and ends up on some milquetoast middle ground.

>>3270044
The kurds were constantly at war with the Iraqi nation state though. They were a fifth column.

File: saddam-why-are-you-fighting-kurds.png (396KB, 486x478px) Image search: [Google]

396KB, 486x478px

>>3270044
>implying Saddam didn't grant the Kurds autonomy and that they didn't have a history of chimping out in the region.

>>3270041
Fascists had capital enterprises, but they had to have the approval of, and be submissive of, the state. Fascists believed that unregulated industries could lead to the moral decay of the nation, and the exploitation of the consumers and workers. Not quite capitalism, and not quite socialism.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the state had no direct control over any particular industry

File: 1502134130441.jpg (44KB, 540x413px) Image search: [Google]

44KB, 540x413px

>>3270063
>fascists believed unregulated industries could lead to the moral decay of the nation, and the exploitation of the consumers and workers

What? For real? That's not even a "policy", that's just common sense.

File: Musso8.jpg (89KB, 850x400px) Image search: [Google]

89KB, 850x400px

>>3270041
Fascism have a state directed economy, not a state planned economy.

>>3270055
>>3270062
>Tankies for Saddam and the Ba'ath Party on /his/

Shocking. Back to your hugbox lefty/pol/.

File: Zizek.png (233KB, 724x723px) Image search: [Google]

233KB, 724x723px

>>3270052
Zizek is just "thought provoking" not a serious analyst

>>3269809
It's because the fourth Comintern decided that fascism meant "Anything that isn't us", and their fellow travelers picked up the term. Said fellow travelers have a lot of influence on media and academia, so the term ultimately lost meaning

File: gunblast.jpg (10KB, 420x444px) Image search: [Google]

10KB, 420x444px

>>3270088
>me
>tankie or /leftycuck/
Lol no Saddam dindu nuffin wronk

>>3270014
>>3270032
Doesn't that mean a violent revolution is necessary for a communist society? I mean, if the state has control, it's not going to just let go of that, and is in all likelihood become tyrannical and oppressive by nature

>>3270107
Well you're right. Even Engels admitted that the state is always a capitalist machine. There's no reason to think the dialectic of class struggle ceases with proletariat versus bourgeoise. That being said a state that embodies the positive characteristics of the spontaneous Soviet (instant recall of delegates, industrial democracy, etc) is a step forward in the right direction.

>>3270079
Exactly.

File: Soviets.jpg (59KB, 500x1103px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 500x1103px

>>3270140
But soviet government not was very democratic (and I'm not talking about stalinist period). The thing is socialism require centralism (economic/political), and centralism necessarily require coercion of any level to ensure collaboration af all. So I can't see how communism (a stateless society) can emerge in that environment.

>>3269702
identity politics isn't exclusive to left or right. It's used by both parties for different reasons, meaning that it's a historical trait. If anything it can be conservative because identity groups are just another type of interest group who are using the political system to pressure parties into defending their interests or expanding their rights at the cost of others.

>>3269846
its not "left" then. They can call themselves "leftists" but its just a misnomer to fool traditional economic leftists into thinking they share interests with a racial interest group.

>>3270368
>But soviet government not was very democratic
True but that was largely a result of the Civil War and the foreign invasion.
>The thing is socialism require centralism
If you're a Marxist-Leninist (Stalinist) sure since they need a strong state to squeeze surplus value out of the workers and think socialism is state ownership+nominally proletarian party. But countries across the globe have experience the rise of spontaneous and democratic soviets.

File: Idpol_theatre.png (2MB, 1080x1400px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1080x1400px

>>3270412
>implying identity politics aren't just a way to distract the attention to the class struggle.

File: Socialism.png (147KB, 793x4926px) Image search: [Google]

147KB, 793x4926px

>>3270452
> But countries across the globe have experience the rise of spontaneous and democratic soviets.

Like this countries?

>>3269481
>>3269513
>>3269537

Has to include "Palingenesis", which is the idea of national rebirth. It is separate from just simple Authoritarian Nationalism

You're teacher is a tit, correct them

So for example - Franco in Spain, right wing dictator, not fascist, de Rivera, Falangist, fascist

Ion Anescu, dictator Romania, not fascist. Codreneau, leader of the Iron Guard, fascist

The difference is that Fascism is inherently radical and almost progressive. Its about radical change to protect and transform the nation. Its not just a dictatorship, it goes beyond.

Only in Germany and Italy (in peacetime, others eg Hungary came to power in the war), did "proper" fascists manage to take power, all the others like Salazar were just conventional right wing dictators.

Another example is Vargas was a conservative dictator, but the Integralists who supported him were fully fascist.

Sorry if thats not clear

>>3270459
Why do you hate white people?

>>3269945
In theory a fascist coporatist state shouldn't have one man in absolute power, different classes and groups should self organise, with the leader as a final control above these

>>3269978
Is this legit? If so I love it

But somehow I doubt

File: Screen Shot 2017-08-20 at 3.55.01 PM.png (94KB, 1100x199px) Image search: [Google]

94KB, 1100x199px

>>3270486

>>3270041
Neither, it was a third position. It retained private property, and allowed industries to run their own affairs, but workers also organised into guild structures which had a say in industrial policy. In practice it was probably closer to market liberalism, in rhetoric closer to socialism Mussolini moved more towards capitalism in the late 30s

File: Albert_Camus2.jpg (160KB, 1321x900px) Image search: [Google]

160KB, 1321x900px

>>3270470
1) This leftypol meme is shit for a number of reasons that aren't all that relevant but I'd go into if you want
2) It's true the only historical destiny of the proletariat up to this point Is to be betrayed. That does not mean that the causes of rebellions are unjustified.

>>3270527
>1) This leftypol meme is shit for a number of reasons that aren't all that relevant but I'd go into if you want.

Go on

File: 1503101674848.jpg (32KB, 640x360px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 640x360px

>>3269481
>Are there actual fascists in today's age
No, white nationalist are not all fascists, and the only fascists that exist today are small fringe groups like antifa. Of course, according to antifa, EVERYTHING to the right of chomsky is fascism.

Antifa being a group which , btw, is just a leftist version of neo-nazis who deny that communism ever committed war crimes and accuses the Holodomor of being a fascist lie/conspiracy. Denying mass genocide hmm... Wonder where I've heard that before?
/2017/03/03/the-holodomor-and-the-film-bitter-harvest-are-fascist-lies/
^^^^^^ their website

File: 1477138281515.jpg (216KB, 782x751px) Image search: [Google]

216KB, 782x751px

>and the only fascists that exist today are small fringe groups like antifa

>>3270550
>these theoreticians are merely utopians who, to meet the wants of the oppressed classes, improvise systems and go in search of a regenerating science. But in the measure that history moves forward, and with it the struggle of the proletariat assumes clearer outlines, they no longer need to seek science in their minds; they have only to take note of what is happening before their eyes and to become its mouthpiece. So long as they look for science and merely make systems, so long as they are at the beginning of the struggle, they see in poverty nothing but poverty, without seeing in it the revolutionary, subversive side, which will overthrow the old society. From this moment, science, which is a product of the historical movement, has associated itself consciously with it, has ceased to be doctrinaire and has become revolutionary.

Essentially everyone in this meme is super spooked and think that revolutionary is simply a means of mixing and matching ideologies rather than being the "real movement that abolishes the present state of things" that and the fact that "market socialism,""socialism with Chinese characteristics" and "socialism with a human" face miss the point of Marx. He sought to abolish political economy in general, not devise "Marxian economic systems"

File: C3otTkPVMAEBiEb.jpg (152KB, 900x1200px) Image search: [Google]

152KB, 900x1200px

>>3270581
Probably should rephrase that, antifa is not a fascist group but Antifa is a small fringe group like most modern day fascists like the NSM, TWP, and American Vanguard.

The most power fascists have is via the Golden Dawn in Greece and the most power communists have is North Korea and the PKK.
>Inb4 China is still communist
Ha

File: 19598653_738165983053212_3725495022752991886_n.jpg (25KB, 720x549px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 720x549px

>>3270607
>north korea
>communist

>>3270620
Call it """""""socialist""""""" if you want fag
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche

>>3270602
So in your opinion, what country was/is close to achieve socialism in a marxist point of view?

>>3270633
Well based on the criteria of "worker ownership of the means of production and the abolition of the wage system" I'd say Revolutionary Catalonia and parts of Soviet Russia (at least initially).

>>3270607

No joke, North Korea can't be called communist anymore IMO, especially since they stopped calling themselves it and removed references of communism from itself. Juche is pretty much korean-nazism combined with hereditary monarchy.

>>3270653
So anarcho communism/anarcho syndicalism are very close of what marx wanted, right?

>>3270656
>Juchism is Korean Nazism
Just because a socialism is ethno centric , doesn't mean it's fascism you moron. It's communion in ideology under a wacked out form of cultism , but frankly it's the closest thing to actual communism in today's world. The PKK is just a revolutionary party , it doesn't have a kurdistan to rule over yet. Be

>>3270678
Heck no. I should clarify that anarchist form de facto dictatorships of the proletariat despite being against it theoretically. Revolutions are inherently authoritarian so there's not such thing as a "libertarian revolution."

>>3270678
>but frankly it's the closest thing to actual communism in today's world.
wat...?

>>3270711
>>3270691

>>3269978
Nah, just the anglosphere.

>>3270710
I don't fully understand, marxism want a "dictatorship of proletariat" and democratic control of the means of production but, is this not contradictory? I can't see how this conditions can happend together in the same system.

>>3270713
They privatized some stuff in the 90's, but they're still a centralized command economy regardless.
>Inb4 anarkiddie reeeee's over not true gommunism

>>3269919
Nigga, the real hardline 'communists' are either dead or doddering old men on the sidelines. Modern China is practically State Capitalist now, with government officials and industry moguls propping each other up.

>>3269481

>>3270735
https://www.marxists.org/archive/bordiga/works/1922/democratic-principle.htm
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/tactics/ep-s3.htm

This should explain it better than I can. Lenin I think correctly argued against the type of purism that says that Proletarian dictatorship must immediately result in total self-management of the means of production since class consciousness (not to mention technical skills etc) develop unevenly.

>>3270782

While I can understand the theory behind this, I can't understand how this can work in a real scenario. don't get me wrong, I'm don't have disregard of marxism in general but I see with much excepticism their organizational schemes in both economy and politics (too optimistic i guess), especially I see a huge vulnerability of this system to be hijacked by "fanatics" and "good willing leaders" making the things more easy for them to corrupt the revolution. It seem like marxism require a new kind of man with new perspective (depending heavily in maintain the class consciousness in some kind of social engineering) but this is only my opinion.

>>3270868
You're quite right. Opportunism is a big danger and it's one of the reasons why revolutionary marxism a non-entity politically at the moment.

>>3270739
there's nothing wrong with saying not real communism, because it comes down to what definition of communism is being used: is it from the perspectives of communist ideology and theoretical writings, or historically self-proclaimed "communists" running "communist regimes", despite their regimes being totally different from what communism is theoretically supposed to be?

>>3270909
Hmm... you seems like a leftcom, right? you don't sounds like the typical "marxist" who want to eat bourgeois heart and praise their favorite sociopath like "stalin did nothing wrong" guys. I genuinely enjoyed the conversation, man.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/
Thoughts on this?

>>3270483
>The difference is that Fascism is inherently radical and almost progressive.
you have drank the kool aid of fascist literature and taken what they say as what they really want.
It is only revelutionary in its very first stages, and it is the supporters of the radical agenda that get it off the ground. These people nearly always leave the movement when it enters its next stage, which is where it drops all of these beliefs in order to align with powerful conservatives to seize the reigns of government.

Fascism is not as much an ideology as a means of mass mobilisation and a system of power. It has no dogmatic ideological tennants like liberalism or socialism, beyond always being nationalist and right.

>>3270951
Thanks! Yeah I'd qualify as a leftcom of sorts. Super-edgy tankies and larpers turn a lot of people off from these types of discussions. It's pretty sad desu.

File: Musso10.jpg (79KB, 850x400px) Image search: [Google]

79KB, 850x400px

>>3270986
>It has no dogmatic ideological tennants like liberalism or socialism, beyond always being nationalist and right.

Well I disagree with that, fascism not only involve national fervour but also require a directed economy, a sense of anti globalism, and corporate groups (national syndicates).

>>3270959
Reading it after I finish Paxton's five stages of fascism. I'll give thoughts tonight

>>3270629
North Korea is much more closely aligned to japanese imperial fascism than communism.
They're only "communists" of convenience

>>3271015
>a sense of anti globalism
that fits perfectly with the need to be right nationalist, which I mentioned
There is no *need* for a directed economy, that is just an upshot of fascism's tendency towards agressive expansionism bringing war economies into being

The easiest thing to spot about fascism is its intellectual dishonesty. Whilst Socialist leaders like Stalin completely trampelled their ideological tennants, they went to great lengths to excuse their actions and make them fit the ideology.
Fascists have no such concerns and simply pick up and drop dogma as is convenient to do so. If they are inconsistent with their values which they declared early on, they simply ignore that.
Hence why it loses the revolutionary aspect so fast

>>3271073
>Fascism is intellectually dishonest
>Fascism picks up and drops dogmas whenever it feels like
You realize that fascism doesn't actually have a set economic goal except for autarky right? The state can nationalize and privatize whatever it wants based on the needs of the nation , that doesn't make fascism intellectually dishonest either because fascism doesn't have a strict over-arching philisophy besides the promotion of "unity". Italian fascism is not German or Romanian fascism for instance.

>>3271109
>You realize that fascism doesn't actually have a set economic goal except for autarky right?
That's not true. It's suppose to eliminate the class state. Something which it never did in any form or iteration.

>>3271119
>It's suppose to eliminate the class state
What? But fascism is all about the state.

>>3271109
>You realize that fascism doesn't actually have a set economic goal except for autarky right?
I'm not interested in how the state structures its economy, I don't think it has much bearing on whether it's fascist or not.
The economy is just a means to sustain the state, I don't think it has much to do with the question

>>3271128
>8. How are you going to break down the barriers of class ? By establishment of the principle of no reward without service, and the consequent elimination of the parasite who creates the barrier of social class. Functional differences will exist according to difference of function, but differences of social classes will be eliminated. They arise from the fact that in present society the few can live in idleness as a master class upon the production of
the many.
https://archive.org/stream/100QuestionsAboutFascism/100-questions-about-fascism-oswald-mosley-2006-politics_djvu.txt

>>3271131
>'m not interested in how the state structures its economy, I don't think it has much bearing on whether it's fascist or not.

So you can think (by example) Pinochet is a fascist according your argument.

>>3271152
I would view pinochet more as a simple military dictator. Granted I don't know so much about his regime, but it appears to me that he was never interested in the vitality of the Chilean people or its ability to be a self sustaining nation (neglecting the right wing nationalist element), hence why he let the people and the factories all languish at the hands of neoliberalism
I don't think a fascist would let national industry be destroyed for the profit of foreign capitalists
I think the economy side is much more about intentions and outcomes than ideological attachments to specific forms of managing an economy

>>3271119
It's suppose to eliminate the class state.
It's actually supposed to maintain class but limit the power one individual can hold by setting wage caps etc... Fascism still promotes social darwinism on a lesser scale you're thinking of Strasserism.

File: Musso9.jpg (86KB, 850x400px) Image search: [Google]

86KB, 850x400px

>>3271144
Well I don't know very much about mosley I admit, but breaking the class barrier was not a clear end in fascists countries (unlike marxism), Mussolini look for a class colaboration and social hierarchy in the benefit of all the nation and the state, there is no final stage in fascism but a constant struggle for order, autocracy and national rebirth.

>>3271144
Again, that's simply Mosley and not fascism as a whole. Fascism doesn't have a set economic doctrine besides the maintenance of a nation

>>3271228
Indeed, strasserism is more a "non marxist" socialism, only related with fascism in their nationalism and antiglobalism.

>>3271237
Mussolini also explicitly repudiated class conflict. So did Jose Antonio Primo De Rivera.

>>3271336
Promoting class unity doesn't mean the abolition of class or the abolition of private property thereof, that's what is meant by ending class conflict through nationalism. Instead of the classes working against each other's interests they work for each other's interests for the benefit of their nation.

>>3271419
Never implied they wanted to abolish private property or class in the marxist sense but okay.

Are they getting punched by ANTIFA?

Then they're a fash getting bashed, it's that simple.

>>3270079
Unless your a good chunk of the republican party right now, then corporations can literally do nothing wrong and regulation and taxes are evil.

>>3270959
Some of the claims are hard to buy into. I'm not denying that a fascist embodies those traits, but a lot of those can be found in more benign people with a stern perspective. You can look at a lot of people's behaviors and claim that their beliefs are either explicitly, or implicitly fascistic. Also, I disagree with the idea that speech is dumbed down. He said that he was 10 years old. I doubt that he had a rich vocabulary at that age. I don't know how he could tell how much better or worse language was

Hitler will be gradually forgotten and trivialized like all other dictators/genocists. Arguably, /pol/ has already made Hitler a joke. "Fascist", "Hitler", etc. are all Communist slurs, used indiscriminately for everyone from Francisco Franco to Donald Trump. A "progressive" (or, as neoconservatives like to call him, a "liberal") is really a psuedo- or crypto-Communist. That's why Nazism is reviled far more than Communism: to progressives, always more devoted to ideology than facts, Hitler was "worse" than Stalin even though he killed far fewer people, because he did it for racial reasons; while Stalin, an adherent of an ideology which was not only evil but completely nonsensical and impossible to implement (in contrast to Hitler, who could very plausibly have achieved his goals), is seen as a "freedom fighter", i.e. his belief, Communism "is a good idea in theory", and therefore he is absolved. It's really only a jump, skip, and a hop from democracy to communism, God knows that America has been lucky to have never been truly hit by the commie disease like China and Russia were.

The slur "Nazi" will stop having political power once leftists finally realize that Nazism is dead and is never coming back. I doubt it though, because leftists seem to be incapable of admitting that they are not, in fact, the underdogs, and that the world has been steadily becoming more and more left-wing since the 17th century, and that they are themselves dogmatic and oppressive at a scale and intensity that the most autistic right-winger can only dream of. Leftists like to be the victims. It's possible that any regime that actually took the responsibility that comes with self-recognized power, would become conservative by definition, and that true leftism is really only possible in revolutions and resistances, or, in other words, in anarchy. That's why leftists are so eager to imagine themselves as rebels.

>>3270959
>nybooks
More like Jew York amirite

But seriously, New York Books Review is propaganda. You might as well start reading North Korea's website too if this is your standard of ideological objectivity.

>>3269638
This. To understand fascism just look to the symbol of facism, the fasces. Rods bound together forming a stronger rod, unbreakable. Fascism is good at achieving unified goals within a state, it has no room though for individualistic thought that runs contrary to the state's well being.

>>3271939
It's not like liberal democracy, at least as it is currently practices, has a track record of being tolorant of independent thought. I'd rather take a strong central government/leader who can actually get things done over a clusterfuck of limp-wristed "politicians".

File: IMG_1260.jpg (209KB, 1008x862px) Image search: [Google]

209KB, 1008x862px

>>3270459
>I'm sorry comrade, but we must take your farm for the state collectivization program. This Lada I drive? Thats only for state officials. So is my fur cap and vacations at the Black Sea.

Its funny, the communist says they'll free the worker from his chains, but the factory worker finds himself working in the sale factory under the new government, only under new "management".

>>3271913
>leftists seem to be incapable of admitting that they are not, in fact, the underdogs
Thank you. It's something I've felt, but never thought to put into words. Also, the reason Nazi has so much potency is because you can't claim "that wasn't real Nazism" like you can with communism. Nazism is upfront with its anti-liberal values, whereas there are hundreds of imaginings of communism that don't include those pesky mass murders and authoritarian regimes

>>3271979
*same

>>3269527
How is /pol/ useless? It's literally compromised of Nationalists, Natsoc, and Fascists. That is the best place to learn, if you are to learn from online sources.

>>3271993
> It's literally compromised of Nationalists, Natsoc, and Fascists.

and trumptards from r/donald

File: Untitled1.png (341KB, 866x692px) Image search: [Google]

341KB, 866x692px

>>3271993
/pol/ is full op hitlerites, pseudo traditionalists and retarded memers too dumb to adhere to an ideology

>>3271985
What I don't like about nazism (and fascism) is the unrestrained hubris of the leader, hitler and mussolini ,by example, could have a more meaningful and acepted legacy if they didn't go full retard with useless expansionism, bad diplomacy, and (in nazism case) racial persecution.

>>3271993
>that is the best place to learn, if you are to learn from online sources.
it really isn't. as the fascists themselves acknowledged, there was an elite containing the ideologues and theoreticians, and the idiotic masses whose will it was the fascist party and leader to interpret. /pol/ consists of the latter sheeple.

>>3272016
This. It was split pretty 50/50 between libertarians/nationalists of all flavors several years ago, and steadily devolved from there over time but seriously turned shit after moot nuked pol and then the POTUS election where there was no hope of ever having a meaningful discussion there again

>>3271929
first we'd have to see what you read. instead of making destructive criticism based most probably on hearsay and inherent political biases, tell us a better outlet from which to get news and information instead of the twisted and just retarded comparison with NK

>>3272018
There were a host of internal issues in fascist states. From doing some reading, what I'm gathering is that fascist states tried to unify conflicting institutions and the only way to keep them somewhat together, there had to be a large overarching goal that the state had to work towards, such as expansionism, the war machine, etc.

>>3272016
>Mussolini gets captured by communists at the end of the war, is executed along with his posse, and has his body hung at a gas station where it's symbolically abused and degraded by hysterical citizens
>Hitler fakes his death and escapes from Berlin to Argentina where he lives a peaceful, quiet life in a remote lakeside mansion banging his wife until his death some 20 years after the war
Nice guys DON'T finish last

>>3271913
>A "progressive" (or, as neoconservatives like to call him, a "liberal") is really a psuedo- or crypto-Communist.
How can you not see the irony in that statement when in the previous sentence you discussed the blatant abuse of the word "fascist"? You realize this statement is the same exact thing except regarding the left? If youre unironically calling liberals or progressive crypto-commies, you need to read some more on the matter.

> Hitler was "worse" than Stalin even though he killed far fewer people,
[citation needed]
Stalin, at most, killed 20 million in the most recent assessment of his regime. 25 million Soviet citizens died from the Soviet Union getting invaded alone, and that's excluding all the other fronts and the Holocaust and other shit. Moreover, we can only imagine what would have happened had Hitler succeeded. General Plan East called for the elimination of something like 80% of the Soviet and Polish populations within 20 years of a Nazi conquest. Tens of millions of heads were slated to have rolled.

>>3272044
Nice meme

>>3272046
>(in contrast to Hitler, who could very plausibly have achieved his goals)
You have no clue what you're talking about. Hitler even moreso than Stalin wanted racial annhiliation on a continental-wide scale. And the madman did it in even less time than Stalin killed his millions.

File: c5f[1].gif (1MB, 250x250px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 250x250px

>>3271993
>That is the best place to learn, if you are to learn from online sources.
I always assume people like this are too lazy to properly study a subject. The rally a week ago should be an indication no one there know what they're talking about.

>>3270470
I like how this version expugned Chavez, while in the previous ones he was featured

>>3272039
Even if militarism seems like imperative in fascist, military expansionism is not. unfortunately italian fascism and nazism become in awful references of this issue.

>>3271929
(((Eco)))
only italians will understand this
[spoiler]memes aside it takes some good mental retardation to call Eco a propangandist[/spoiler]

>>3272496
moar

>>3272496
What book is this?

>>3272807
possibly The Seduction of Unreason: The Intellectual Romance with Fascism from Nietzsche to Postmodernism

File: vietcong.jpg (32KB, 465x340px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 465x340px

>>3271913
Viet Kong soldiers imagining themselves as rebels on the Mekong delta, 1971

>>3269481
No.

The facism, and Hitler comparisons more so, are dishonest and show an ignorance of history.

Anyone who genuinely believes Trump or the GOP are equivalent to the Nazis is ignorant, and should read a history book detailing what the Nazis did.

File: 1502492265175.jpg (63KB, 850x400px) Image search: [Google]

63KB, 850x400px

>>3269589
>no freedoms of speech, expression, information, ect
We're approaching that already, the only difference is that its enforced by media and mobs, which has no functional difference to the average person.

>get killed if you aren't part of aryan race, western European, Mediterranean, or far east Asian

Only the Nazis engaged in genocide and they weren't the only fascist regime by a long shot. If you qualify Imperial Japan as fascist, their seething hatred of the Chinese and Koreans and intense xenophobia and sense of superiority predates fascism by centuries.


>get serialised if you have a disability or your child has a disability meaning that you carry a shitty gene (including autism far)

Again, Nazi Germany is not the only fascist regime in history.

>can't breed with other races even if you find your waifu 4 laifu

See above. You're demonstrating an imminently paper thin grasp of history.

>if you're a dude then you will go get killed fighting some sub human somewhere

Unless you live in Portugal or Spain (if you qualify them as fascist), Iron Guard Romania, Metaxas' Greece, etc.

>if you are a chick then you shit out babies till you die

So like the overwhelming majority of human history prior to the birth of fascism?

>have to love the state even if the state is shit

Same thing can happen in democracy, once again through media/social pressure. Remember the general attitude towards Iraq War protesters 14 years ago?

>have to love the leader even though he is a right cunt

Happens in America today. Both Obama and Trump have or had cults of personality with their supporters.

>can't be a neet

Based fascism desu

>probably get rid of luxury foods in favour of protein smoothies and lentils to ensure each subject is the the pinnacle of fitness not that it matters if you are jacked because you can't have sex with whoever you want

Uh, sure. Whatever you say senpai.

File: 1486993030710.png (98KB, 1125x1378px) Image search: [Google]

98KB, 1125x1378px

>>3271913
Basing your opinion of who was more evil based on kill counts alone is utterly stupid.
Instead, look at WHO Hitler targeted, WHY, and HOW he killed them.
You still have tens of millions of deaths that came about as a result of Hitler's actions that are NOT considered as part of the Holocaust death toll. Let's also consider the millions of Europeans who were enslaved and put to work in the German industry. Had Hitler not been defeated, it is inevitable that millions more would have perished or been enslaved by his regime.

>>3269865
>t. jordan petershit

>>3269481
Non-marxist socialism. They just deny the utopia of communism as an end and see that the socialist state is the final stage to be achieved and the one which will trully lead us to progress.
But because they wete excommunicated from the left you can call them 3rd way or "extreme" right but I see no reason nor proof to call then that other than to collude with the feelings of someone who seeks purity in the major umbrella of their political ideology

>>3273916
The autistic racial policies of nazism was not a common trait in all fascists regimes

>>3269880
CCP today is kinda different to "The Left Wing" portray in the West. In fact, the meaning of "left" and "right" politically spectrum in China is reversed compare to Western countries.

Many things which are classified as "left" in China will be labeled as "right" in America actually. For example, Nationalism and Statism are well accepted and promoted by CCP as part of their ideology, but which are usually classified as "right" in the west.

>>3274389
Also traditional culture and strong family values are also promoted by CCP nowadays(fag marriage and lgbt propaganda are opposed instead), not to mention the usual accusations such as suppress free speech and media freedom...etc. These deeds are almost all labeled as right wing policies in the west.

>>3274136
A lot more than Jordan hate postmodernism. In fact, almost every philosopher does

File: IMG_0236.jpg (53KB, 510x178px) Image search: [Google]

53KB, 510x178px

>>3273916
Anyone who lives in the current times who believe that the Jewish people didn't arouse the anger aimed towards them are not paying enough attention.

relevant: http://www.orwell.ru/library/articles/As_I_Please/english/efasc

>>3270570
Back to the_donald you go.

>>3271993
Ask a cultist about their cult
Or ask a former cult member about the cult they escaped from
which one do you think would give you the information you wanted in the shortest time?

>>3269481
>What is facism?

Right-wing nationalist revolution with an emphasis on national rebirth.

>Are the people being called fascist in today's day and age actually fascist?

Not really, it's just a buzzword for the most part.

>>3270015
Are you literally retarded?

Nobody outside of fascism (actual fascism) is able to define fascism.
>>3269537
No, that isn't fascism.

>>3269589
All wrong.

>>3270041
Economics is irrelevant to fascism, besides the undergraduate definition of fascism. I am a fascist because I am an anarchotheist. I care little for economics and would rather just grow my own produce and such.

>>3271456
Antifa are the ones being punched, well enough. Stupid brats.

>>3269589
wtf I love Fascism now !

>>3269481
>What is facism?
The marriage between corporation and state.
t. Mussolini

>Are the people being called fascist in today's day and age actually fascist?
No, but it's too late to try to convince society any different.

File: Reactionaries_get_out_REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.jpg (201KB, 1200x1254px) Image search: [Google]

201KB, 1200x1254px

>>3271456
But ANTIFA hate everything

>>3276150

Boston antifa is a meme troll page

>>3275994
>I am a fascist because I am an anarchotheist. I care little for economics and would rather just grow my own produce and such.
funniest post i've read all day

>>3275831
>makes cryptic post with no evidence
>posts pictures of alleged jews, choosing the worst ones to make them looked idiotic and sinister looking as "evidence"

File: Angry_faggots.png (455KB, 593x846px) Image search: [Google]

455KB, 593x846px

>>3276169
Please, tell me this is trolling.

>>3269776
>>3269630
I like how we have to dance around the fifty redundant versions of socialism but fascism is no deeper than hurr durr capitalism with fangs.
Why are socialists so retarded, dishonest and bad with women?

>>3271456
Getting punched by beastiality-loving psychopath doesn't mean they're fascists.