Were we wrong not to hang Lee?

Why would you?
>greatest general of the war
>only fought for the confederacy because his home state left the union
>opposed slavery
>taught at West Point after the war
>urged the south to cooperate with the union after defeat

>inb4 Sherman was best general
Second best general, but not the gentlemen Lee was

when someone has bent their knee to you. it is your responsibility to pick them up.

It was remarkable there was a stable peace instead of generational conflict. Hanging Lee, who is the single strongest voice for reconciliation in the South, is how you get separatism as a political/terror movement indefinitely unless you are going full meme and want to genocide white southerners, which other considerations aside weakens the US and would be condemned both internally and abroad

>>3240795

No, surrender is a surrender. The alternative was a protracted low intensity civil conflict that would have hampered the Union's ability to expand. And ultimately, the South chose to recognize Federal authority anyway. Later on, this is what prevented another civil war from breaking out after Brown vs. Board of Education. The real question is should we have reintegrated them sooner. But such a thing was made impossible after Booth shot Lincoln.

Also this >>3240888 hanging people wanting to reconcile only causes everyone around them to immediately fight to the death rather than risk execution.

>>3240795
We were wrong to fight him

>>3240804
"We have yet too many bold men to think of laying down our arms...The enemy do not fight with our spirit, while our boys still do," General Lee on the notion of surrender, 1865

Mr. Lee was an old shag who was ready to surrender the lives of hundreds of thousands of good young men if it meant if it meant the survival of his honor. To hell with him. The Confederacy knew better men.

>>3240795
>killed millions of people by leading his terrorist group fighting against the legitimate government
>b-but he was a nice guy!
yes, they were wrong in not doing it

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>>3240795

Every last fucking Nigger, Northerner, and Marxist deserves death.

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>>3240795
the civil war discussions will always be saturated by modern day politics

>>3240936
>"Legitimate government"
>Violated the Constitution
What did you mean by this

>>3240934
>ready to surrender the lives of hundreds of thousands of good young men if it meant if it meant the survival of his honor
What the fuck are you even talking about.
Lee is basically saying what >>3240888 was.

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>>3240939
DO IT AGAIN SHERMAN

>>3240795
Nah, he should be commended for trying to kill the great satan in its infancy

>>3240946
This was in 1865, to reiterate. We knew the fight was lost but was willing to let his men die anyway.

>>3240804
He didn't teach at West Point after the war, he was the president at Washington College
t. Washington and Leefag

>>3240936
>killed millions of people
Holy shit you have less mental capacity then a cumstain on a motel wall

>>3240946
>violated the Constitution

You've got no one but yourselves to blame, fuckhead. YOU seceded without the consent of the rest of the Union. YOU fired the first shot.

>>3240968
His men wouldn't have put down arms at that point is my bet, and plenty of Confederates had been quoted saying they would rather die than see the Confederacy fail.
A noteworthy case being Patrick Cleburne, the "Stonewall of the West", who is also one of the most underrated Civil War Generals imo.

>>3240936
>yankee education

>>3240795
Considering he fought for the confederacy solely because his home state joined it and not because he believed any of the slavery bullshit no, his stature and moderate views were useful in furthering reconciliation, and frankly his house getting turned into a National Cemetery was a pretty big fuck you. A better person for this question would be Forrest

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>>3240942
it's Ironic how little has changed in 150 years.

>>3240975
>>3240990
should have said billions instead

>>3240795

no, but we should have hanged Jefferson Davis and every person who signed the individual articles of secession.

Hang Andrew Johnson while you're at it.

>>3241017
>Nevah forget da 8 Billion slaves Robert E Lee killed durin' da war!

>>3241014
this

>>3240795
>>3240936
>>3241025
This isn't how you secure peace after a civil war. The American Civil War was the bloodiest conflict in this country's history, and it wasn't a completely one sided affair. They made the right decision by letting them all live and not rile up anymore unneeded tension. Everyone, even the writers of the Constitution, knew this was going to be a problem that needed solved at some point.

Robert E Lee was probably the one person most responsible for reconciling the south with the north and prevented countless bloodshed from continued southern insurgency. So no, it's a good thing psychotic radical Yankees didn't hang him just to give themselves a self-righteous murder boner.

>>3240983
btw secession was not illegal and therefore not treasonous
>constitution says nothing about secession
>10th amendment to the constitution says any powers not awarded to the federal government by the constitution are reserved to the states and the people
>"Hey we're a country that was formed though secession from a larger mother government, BUT IF YOU EVER LEAVE US WE WILL FUCKING KILL YOU"
>"a bloo bloo bloo, you shelled a fort we were keeping our (foreign) troops in so they would leave and no one even died. THIS IS A TRAVESTY! YOU SHOT FIRST!"

If the leaders had been hanged, the Confederacy would have never reintegrated in spirit and either would have won its independence down the line, or we'd be fighting a low level insurgency to this day.

Reconciliation isn't a meme.

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>>3241206
>not America
>American constitution still ad rem

>>3240795
He believed too much in the humanity of his own state and country. He took up the broken sword because he felt like, if not him no one would fight for his people. Things got out of control. and the war dragged way past where he thought peace could be bought somehow. The southern government let him down.

His thinking was simple. If he doesn't do this his country men will simply be slaughtered. History is not kind to people.

>>3242122
Adding a bit here. Lee would have wanted the country to stop fighting itself now, and if taking down his statue would help that. He'd shallow his pride and do it himself, just like he took up the broken sword.

>>3241195

We faced a 12-year long insurgency from the surviving remnants of the Confederate aristocracy that only ended when we surrendered and gave up on majority rule in the South. I think a few hangings would've gone a long way in showing the hardliners we meant business.

>>3242317
>12-year long
Try 150+

>>3240934
That his men were willing to die for him tells me they did not disagree with that sentiment.

>>3240795
because you can't declare something a crime retroactively, after it happened, and then hang people for it.

before Texas v White secession was a legal act, and if you're a Constitutional purist it still is today.

>>3242455
This. Its unconstitutional to have post ex-facto laws

>>3240795
Americans are cowards, they didn't even have the guts to kill the Japanese Emperor in WW2

>>3241206
>Shoot first
>Start an unwinnable war
>Cry about it for 180 years

Are Dixiecucks the most pathetic people in human history?

>>3242612
>Start an unwinnable war
the CSA didn't have to conquer the Union to win, all they would of had to do to win was hold out long enough and cause them enough trouble for someone like McClellan to just let them leave.

>>3242612
>unwinnable
you've never read a book about this in your life

>>3240795
>hang a man who was respected in both the North and South before, during, and even after the Civil War
Yes. Besides the fact Lee committed no war crimes, followed the conventions of warfare, did not terrorize enemy combatants or civilians, acted with proprietary and took care of Union POWs (same with Stonewall and several other more notable Confederate generals), and ignoring he did nothing to lead to a capital execution, this would've seen the fucking pacified South into a rage and restarted the conflict all over again.

>>3240804
Sherman wasn't even the best Union general, let alone second best of the CW.

>>3240804
>gentleman
>opposed slavery
Lost Cause traitor southener detected

>>3241238
>Confederate States of AMERICA
They still recognized the Constitution and believed themselves to be American, they just thought the Union were traitors who were subverting the Constitution's ideas

>>3240795

Only if you think that starting a decades-long guerilla war that would inevitably prevent the integration of the Confederate States back into the Union would be a good thing.

>>3242639
/thread

>>3240795
Is there any other case where the modern nationalists of a country romanticize the ones who fought against their own country?
I honestly can't think of any.

It's as if modern Polish or Russians nationalists were praising Bandera and defending his statues inside their countries. Sure Lee may not have been that bad as >>3242639 said, but still.

Lee was the best man the south could ask for after the war. Lee didn't really want to fight in the first place. Hanging him could have possibly led to smaller rebellions popping up all over the south.

>>3242425
Fat rednecks shitposting on the internet about how their great great great grandpas lost the war isn't an insurgency

>>3242905
Southerners that are Neo-Confedreates don't see Yankees as their countrymen

Lee being anti-secssionist is revisionism. He was fully committed once Lincoln decided to invade his own country.

>>3242949
>What is Segregation?
>What is KKK?
>What is Jim Crow?
>What is Charleston last Saturday?
As a country it's a fucking historically stigmatic problem.

>>3243012
>Charleston
>insurgency
I know that one nig got run over by some commie, but i wouldn't call that an insurgency

>>3242617
Ah the Vietcong solution. Erode your enemies' populous' morale to fight

>>3242455
but thats exactly what they did in nuernberg process

>>3242905
There are plenty of English who romanticize Charles I, even if they think it was good that he lost. So yes.

>>3243027
>I know that one woman named Heather Heyer and 19 others got run over by some nazi
FTFY

>>3242905
Erwin Rommel

>>3243036
>nuernberg process
UN Trails not American Constitution

>>3243033
They didn't even have to do that, all Lee would have had to do is withdraw before the 3rd day at Gettysburg and have the Mead shadow him some more, and that would have drawn the conflict much longer

>>3243052
Nah Lee was a firm believer in finding a quick end to the war. He wanted that push to the Union Capital to sue for peace. He didn't get it

normally I'd debate that northerners also are way too quick to shove sherman and abraham lincoln's dick in their mouths but honestly the confederacy was a mistake. Because we essentially gave the union cause to have power over us after winning we now have to deal with minorities and poverty. Fucking sucks.

>>3243061
To be fair, we exported our negroes to destroy cities such as Detroit. So the balance is even.

>>3243061
The Sherman meme is only there to piss off blood and thunder confedaboos. Just like Bomber Harris the slayer of Germans is propagated to piss of wehraboos and naziboos. Most people in the north don't give a fuck about the war, they just don't want to see the confederate flag flying up in our states.

>>3243061
The CSA was a mess, its just that being pro-Union is an inherently a kwa mindset.
The main reason why a confederate victory would have been good is because it likely would have crippled the great satan in its infancy

>>3242617
>>3243033
>>3243052
The only problem was Confederate citizens hated conscription even more than the northerners did and had a way more crippling deserter problem. On the one hand, your commoner Dixiefag probably didn't like the idea of Yankees invading their home and imposing their morality on them through force, but on the other hand it's not like they were the ones who owned slaves and ultimately benefited from all the fighting anyway.

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>>3243068
Yeah I guess you're right. I'm hoping that someday a government official actually brings change because we have a problem here and it's only worse when the left keeps exploiting the african vote just to fuck them over. Makes sense that the democrat's symbol is a fucking ass
>>3243086
Yeah. I think people should be able to have confederate flags because even though it was the wrong cause people still died for that shit, I wouldn't wanna die just to let take away my statues and shit. Most of them are retarded anyway.
>>3243087
I honestly think the union winning was for the best. The reconstruction could've gone so much god damn better and it really did fuck up but I think the unified country has done a lot more in terms of global powers and advancement.

>>3243122
> in terms of global powers and advancement
>wanting america to be an even bigger global power

>>3240936
damn Yanks go back to your factories

>>3240936
>leading his terrorist group fighting against the legitimate government
Yeah fuck George Washington.

>>3243248
The revolutionary war was just as autistic in terms of reasons if not more than the civil war.

>>3240936
>leading his terrorist group fighting against the legitimate government

I wonder where this American got the crazy idea of fighting against his own government. Oh wait that's the whole reason your entire fucking country exists faggot.

>>3240942
Just give it a century or two.

You don't see people getting mad about the revolutionary war, do you?

>>3243039
Boo hoo.

When that nig killed 5 cops and injured 9 others in Dallas nobody in their right mind thought it was an insurgency, just a retarded lone wolf

>>3243039
>wahh wahh when we swarm some car and bash it we might get run over. we're victims!

>>3242905
Retard.

The South might as well be a different country

>>3242841
Despite years earlier trying to say that states can overturn federal laws with a convention were only a minority of congressmen were while suppressing dissenting opinion,

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>>3240795
I honestly believe you northerners are not true americans at all, but some fucking international faggots that are just on in sucking this country dry.

I am all for, for seperation of the southern states from the union. Self-determination is a democratical right in a free country.

>>3243405
>leeches
>accusing others of sucking the country dry

>>3243405
Probably a troll, but once you join the team, you cannot leave. That's why we are winning the game, try not to fuck it up dude.

>>3243426
why a troll, I am all for it. It would be better if we had our country and our laws, and they have theirs. We are intrinsically different people as the protests have shown.

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>>3243012
>all of these things could have been avoided if the south had been allowed to dissolve slavery on its own terms once it had begun to be more expensive to own slave than it was profitable.
>instead force them to dissolve it asap, burned down their homes and forever shamed them for fighting for what they thought where their rights
>the south develops a culture of resisting change and paranoia about a collusion between northerners and black people to subvert the South and Southern culture

Kind of brought this in yourselves, desu desu

>>3240888
I am amazed that reconstruction went as smoothly as it did

>>3243572
>dissolve slavery
>getting rid of free labor
>history has prove otherwise
whatever fantasy helps you sleep at night

>>3243339
>>3243333
>Killing people is ok
/pol is that way. This is history, not fiction

>>3243426
This is nigger-tier gang shit.

"You a blood now, you can't quit. You quit we kill you".

>>3243965
to be fair those people that got run over are *were* fucking retarded. Did they deserve death? no. But did they literally jump in front and behind a moving car that just rammed into the crowd? yeah.

>>3243965
>antifa
>people

>>3240795
No but the US was wrong to not nip the "South Will Rise Again" bullshit in the bud.

The statues are only one part of Confederate worship that was allowed to permeate through the south after reconstruction.

>>3240795
>hang Lee
>immediately the Union is bogged down in renewed conflict while facing guerrilla and ambush tactics from Confederate forces all over the South, Mid-Atlantic, and Midwest
>this drags on for another decade before the Union is forced to pull out and the Confederates win
Good job.

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>>3240795
You were wrong to even start the war. All you had to do was evacuate your forts leave us alone but noooooo
>It would make us look bad
Also
>Inb4 muh war was over slavery and not independence meme
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corwin_Amendment

>>3244156
>The north should've become more tyrannical than it already was
You probably would've if you had more starving Irishmen to conscript

>>3244257
>The North
>Tyrannical

Kek talk shit get hit, cletus. Reconstruction was a mistake.

>>3244401
He's right though, you retard.

>>3240936
>legitimate government
the north betrayed the constitution and went against the founding fathers, not legitimate at all. the south had the right (and the duty) to resist them.

>inb4 redneck
I'm a European

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>>3244401
>South: fuck this, I'm sending my cotton directly to Britain now, I'm tired of you cunts telling me what to do
>North:REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>600,000 people die
Did I miss anything?

>>3240804
>opposed slavery
he fucken owned slaves

>>3243426
>god the south are so stupid, fucking fat racist rednecks with no education and fucking their sisters are making our country look bad
>what? what do you mean you want to leave? we have to be united guys!

>>3242905
>Is there any other case where the modern nationalists of a country romanticize the ones who fought against their own country?
I think the contentions of southerners is that they see Lee as someone who fought against the nation they were forcibly brought to heel by.
unless you mean like dixieboos in the north which doesn't to make much sense but you have to understand there are confederate worshippers in europe even.

>>3244245
I still don't understand why anderson didn't surrender to Beauregard, he was surrounded by confederate armies and asked to surrender by a man who personally knew him from west point, and the fucker fights anyway.

>>3244529
>Country elects Lincoln
>South: REEEEEEEEEE
>Lose
>The north was tyrannical guise we gud boys we dindu nuffin

You missed quite a bit. The South shot first. The South seceded without just cause. The South lost and instead eliminating all spirit of rebellion, was spared it's heroes. It has since squandered the good will of the union and regularly fantasizes about rebelling again. Fuck the South, southern culture is a malignency on the union and its state's are actively a drain on the nation.

>>3243258
Do you really think they're the same? Not wanting to be ruled by a king as opposed to wanted to treat people as property.

>>3244576
>Fuck the South, southern culture is a malignency on the union and its state's are actively a drain on the nation.
so then they should secede I guess, huh?

How would the US do without the south? Isn't the US army mostly southerners and the majority of industry comes from states such as Texas right?

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>we

The Union couldn't even prove Jeff Davis committed treason kek. Get fucked yankees, the statues of Jeff and Lee will stay in the US Capital's rotunda.

>>3244600
They should be depopulated and colonized by Nothern ubermensch
The lebensraum is still necessary,but the subhuman southerners must be eradicated

>>3244576
>The South shot first
Because you morons not only refused to evacuate the forts you reinforced them. It's always going to be the war of Northern Agression where you wanted to keep your industries intact by forcing the South to stay.

>>3244761
Almost like how the South wanted to keep its economy intact by forcing black people to stay.

>>3244849
Almost like had the North not invaded industrialization would've made slave labor incrementally obsolete and slavery couldve ended without bloodshed as people were predicting...

>>3244849
The cost of owning slaves was going up while the profitability was going down. It was a trend that was expected to reach a point where the costs exceded the gains by 1960 AT THE VERY LATEST, which was about the time of the civil rights movement anyway, so a social acceptance of the declination of slavery and segregation would have coincided with an economic one. You literally didnt need to destroy the southern infrastructure and economy to have equal rights within a reasonable time frame. Forced abolishion and the establishment of a northen hegemony wasn't the "right" thing to do when faced with a secessionist movement, they where just outcomes of a convenient chance for the North to grasp at more power while looking like a hero of the little guy.

>>3244882
>>3244908
>bro slaves aren't even that great anymore just give us 40 more years of torturing people and depriving them of their rights

>>3244920
>abolishion actually did anything for slaves but give them a new title and a system of laws that made them heavily resented and easily targeted second class citizens.
>slaves couldn't fight for freedom without Northern Leadership to step in to piss off the local white population and take power for themselves.
>Carpetbaggers actually did anything for African-Americans after the war but shame their former masters for being horrible people while taking the local means of production for themselves.

>>3244920
the North did not attack the South to free the slaves, but you already know that and are just shitposting.

>>3240939
Um, technically every human deserves death because none of us are immortal gods, dumbshit.

>>3244987
You're right, because the North didn't attack the South.

>>3244998
xD

>>3242646
I dunno, I'd stick him third behind Lee and Jackson. CSA didn't lose for lack of military skill, that's for sure.

>>3242905
I romantacise the CSA even though I'm glad they lost. It's part of our heritage.

>>3242612
You have literally no idea what you're talking about. CSA shot first, but calling the war 'unwinnable' is an almost retard tier lack of understanding.

>>3244982
I don't know if I can seriously entertain the opinion of someone who writes "abolishion".

>>3245027
Don't blame him, the schools aren't very good in Hickville, Alabama.

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>>3245027
>>3245073
My phone is cheap and has a feature where it saves new (read misspelled) words I type and auto-fills it in as I write. I hate this thing morre than you know.

Also, pic related, how about you engage what I have to say rather than criticising my spelling.

>>3244584
>Not wanting to be ruled by a king as opposed to wanted to treat people as property.

The Revolutionary War was a war fought by elites angered over the fact that parliament began dicking the colonies with taxes and regulations that didn't agree to, and then proceeded to dress the entire situation up with flowery terms like liberty and freedom. The Confederates did the EXACT same thing, they just lost the war, so instead of it being called a heroic struggle for states rights it was called a rebellion to maintain slavery.

>>3244538
Yes? And he also had a reputation of taking good care of them and had no issue with abolition in and of itself. History isn't black and white when it comes to morality and ethics, you dong.

>>3240795

No, but not because he didn't deserve it. Hanging him would have made him a symbol and a rallying point.

The officers below him like Nathan Bedford Forrest should have been hanged.

>>3245208
ow the edge

>>3245233

Article III, section 3 of the US Constitution: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court."

Every single soldier who took up arms in the confederate army deserved to hang. Now, hanging them all would have been inhumane, bloodthirsty, cruel, and just awful postwar strategy in general. But they all deserved it.

>>3245325
I don't see anything about secession there sunshine.

>>3245325
>Every single soldier who took up arms in the confederate army deserved to hang.
>hanging them all would have been inhumane, bloodthirsty, cruel
>being this passive aggressive
hi leddit

>>3244538
Actually, tons of leaders opposed slavery while owning slaves.
There are people today who "oppose coal mining" that use coal products every fucking day.
It was a status quo they had to work with.

>>3245325
You realize that this was used against Jeff Davis during his court hearings but was thrown out. Davis would just argue that he was a citizen of Mississippi (US citizenship didn't exist yet) and Mississippi voted to secede from the Union therefore it wasn't treason. The Union court didn't what to debate to touch the legality of secession with a ten foot pole. Instead they tried to rack up other charges against by connecting him to war crimes etc.

They had four fucking years to convict him before Johnson went rogue and pardoned Jeff but they never could. Screaming "treason" is a pathetic attempt at an argument.

>>3240939
>Every last fucking Nigger

Literally the only argument the left has against you, and you give it to them willingly.

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>>3244998
>Refuse to evacuate forts
>Reinforce them with more arms in men
>Dude wtf why did you shoot at us we weren't like preparing for a massive invasion or anything with all the extra men we were sending

>>3244920
>Torturing people
1) Slaves were not tortured en masse they were just used as farm hands
2) most of them were owned by 1% of the South, the middle class that could afford slaves used them as servants and were seen as part of the family unit (as many of the slaves that were freed kept the last name of their former masters)
3) still doesn't justify 600,000 people being brutally killed via Canon balls and musket fire.

>>3245332
He's talking about levying war, which I don't think is valid because they succeeded through a majority vote and didn't create an army until afterwards, when they were already their own government, I could be wrong about the timeframe though I don't remember whether or not the confederate army was raised before or after they seceded.

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>>3245489
>Doesn't evacuate Fort Sumter
>Why? It's owned by the Federal Govt.
>REEE when owners of said property attempt to resupply it

>>3245546
>be the people of south carolina
>decide that south carolina is confederate now
>somehow this doesn't apply to the forts

>>3245597
>Federa property is now state property because we say so
>Reeeee when the federal government says no

No wonder the south wanted to keep blacks so much, they share the same mentality. Or maybe the gibz attitude originally comes from the south. This is worth looking into.

>>3245597
>Be S.C.
>Decide to "lawfully" secede from Union
>Buttblasted that Fort Sumter is lawful property of Union
>Ignore property rights

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>>3245546
>Secede from federal government under threat of war
>Federal government reinforces forts with men and ammo
>South declares war
>It's the South's fault for not letting the North roll over them

>>3245665
>thinking SC fired on the fort just because it existed

they attacked the fort because Lincoln sent a ship into the harbor

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>>3245500
>Slaves were not tortured en masse they were just used as farm hands

I love this revisionist history the Right likes to perpetuate about slavery.

>Rednecks still bitching about the Civil War

The federal government should have taken over that part of history in the public school system. I went to middle school in South Carolina and it's amazing what bold faced lies the teacher fed to us about the Civil War. I felt bad for black students having to hear that "muh States Rights" meme.

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>>3245734
>>3245736
>Resupplying is not an act of war
>Fed Govt. also has a right to the cross harbor to access their property
>S.C. violates the property rights of the Fed Govt.

>literally every country has monuments to defeated uprisings
>american communists destroy american history and the media claps to it
the state of the USA

>>3245819
and meanwhile a statue of fucking lenin stands pround some blocks away
bravo USA bravo

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>>3245008
>CSA didn't lose for lack of military skill

It can be argued that while they had some pretty capable commanders they also had considerable good fortune in the incompetence of Union commanders for the first couple years of the war. Jackson is a little overrated, while his Shenandoah campaign was excellent he performed poorly during the Seven Days (as did Lee tbqh) and it was only thanks to McClellan's massive incompetence that the Peninsular campaign ended the way it did. Antietam was a battle that could've wiped out Lee's army if someone like Grant had been in command, Chancellorsville suffered from Hooker's failings and by that point Lee and Jackson were making their moves on the basis that they faced inferior leadership. This would go on to cost Lee dearly at Gettysburg but to his credit he was a pretty good match for Grant right up to the trench war around Petersburg.

And we have to touch on the fact that the South had one of the worst commanders of all time, let alone the war.

So who was the best Civil War general since historical contrarians like to poo-poo Lee and Sherman?

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>>3245789
>Sending increased amounts of troops to the forts is not agression
>It's unreasonable to assume that increased presence of troops and munitions in forts is suspicious

yes.

Robert E. Lee is a spineless oppurtunistic coward.
He was supposedly anti slavery and anti seccession, yet fought for the side that supported both anyway so both sides could view him as a martyr.
He was offered command of the Union army and rejected it, knowing full well the war was unwinnable for the South because he knew he could make a name for himself.
Robert E. Lee is a spineless traitor akin to Benedict Arnold who lacked the fortitude to stand by his own convictions, if those ever were his true convictions at all.
He is a traitor, no ifs ands or buts about it. A traitor who sought nothing but glory and tried to claim it was for pride in his home state, and that he would not stand against his states wishes. That is until counties in west Virginia decided to not secede, because in that case Lee didnt give a shit what the people of his state thought and he tried to force them to leave.
We should have executed this weak pathetic excuse of an "american" at Appamatox in front of his whole army.

>>3246014
Grant
he was not a great general by any means but in terms of what the North needed to win the war he was literally perfect.
The North needed a general that would just fucking fight becaus no matter how much Lee resisted he just could not keep up with Grants pace thanks to Union logistical superiority. Grant was the only general who truly used that advantage in a meaningful way and thats why he deserves all the credit he is given.
Now, if based McClellan had Grants fighting spirit paired with his own god tier organizing ability and extremely positive effect on troop morale, he would be the greatest general in history.

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>>3246139
>Robert E. Lee is a spineless traitor akin to Benedict Arnold who lacked the fortitude to stand by his own convictions, if those ever were his true convictions at all.
That sounds more like Thomas Jefferson to me.

>>3246139
>He's Benedict Arnold
>He's a coward for not wanting to command the army
The true power of Yankee autism has been revealed

>>3245597
>somehow this doesn't apply to the forts
Because they'd sold the land to the federal government.

Do you need an explanation of how selling property works, anon?

>>3243248
>accidentally discovering the truth while trying to make a shitty comparison

>>3242646
>The guy who had the greatest impact on ending the war wasn't the greatest general
I bet you think Patton was a better General than Eisenhower too

>>3240795
Yes, he was a traitorous whore just like the rest of them. His ideals where simpleton level bullshit. "I just stuck by my home state as they betrayed my nation for no fucking reason." What a cunt. Confederates all claiming this asshole was noble meanwhile in fucking China, Shi Dakai is giving himself up to be tortured to death as a bargain for the lives of his soldiers. The Four Eyed Dog is trying to do the same after being sold down the river by a traitor. Li Xiucheng is giving his own horse up to save the only son of the Heavenly King, effectively ensuring his capture and death by torture.Learn real nobility you goddamn inbreds.

>>3245166
American slavery was literally and figuratively black and white.

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>>3246139
Bait and gay

>>3246181
>Because they'd sold the land to the federal government
>After declaring secession from the fed somehow this bargain is still there
Are Yankees all this autistic or is it just you?

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>>3246094
>Whole point of seceding was for "muh rights"
>Buttblasted when said property owner attempts to resupply fort to thwart any aggression
>Fires at the unarmed merchant vessel attempting to resupply property
>Literally the South's fault for disregarding the rights they apparently seceded to upkeep.

Sherman should have burned more than just Atlanta down at this rate.

>>3246284
>>Whole point of seceding was for "muh rights"
>Yankees are STILL too autistic to understand that we just wanted them to fuck off
It was about independence not just states rights, property rights, and other jeffersonians ideals. We just wanted you to go fuck off.

Instead you shipped I extra troops and munitions to your forts making it seem like you were just going to invade anyways so we shoot at you.
>Sherman should've done x
If only he had more starving Irishmen to exploit then I'm sure he could have.

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>>3244702
>Nothern ubermensch

>>3243248
He should've hanged too.

>>3246304
>It was about independence not just states rights, property rights, and other jeffersonians ideals. We just wanted you to go fuck off.
Good start to independence is actually abiding by the rights that you originally seceded to upkeep in the first place. Unless you just like being a reactionary cunt because Lincoln won the election.

>If only he had more starving Irishmen to exploit then I'm sure he could have.
Good. Less Irish niggers around.

>>3246279
>>Because they'd sold the land to the federal government
Yes. That is literally where the discussion begins and ends.

>>3240804
>opposed slavery
>kept slaves

>>3246304
>WE

There is no "we". You're American and you're part of the Union. Dont like it? Get the fuck out because there are plenty of Mexicans who will gladly swear loyalty to our empire.

Fucking hicks. You faggots weren't even born during the Civil War.

>>3246917
>Get the fuck out because there are plenty of Mexicans who will gladly swear loyalty to our empire.
>durr but if you try to we made it illegal

Are all northerners this stupid?

>>3246945
It's not illegal for you as an individual to leave. You however can't take our property. We own it.

>>3247313
>sorry slave you can't build a house on this here field it's my property
>sorry redneck you can't secede from this here country it's my property
>lefties will lick government boots like it's running out of style

>>3247327
>tmw even mexicans are better than dixies

Oh, and you can secede from the country, you just can't take Union property with you :)

Why do you Americans get so buttblasted about the civil war when the USA is only ~53% white now anyway?

>>3247313
>federal government
>owning "states"
You are kind of dumb, man.

>>3247904
*72% white you mean.

>>3246362
>All this edge
Jesus, careful with that edge boy, you might accidently cut your wrists and spare us your company

>>3246476
>Yes. That is literally where the discussion begins and ends.
No the discussion begins at
>We no longer recognize the federal government to be legitimate
>Leave now or face war
+1 to your Yankee autism points though

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>>3246917
>There is we
There is no you. Yankees are just cucks for industrialists as your little rant about how you love exploit 3rd world labor while wagging your finger like the smarmy faggot you are to southerners who took better care of their slaves than y'all did your payed labor force

This brainwashed cuck actually believes that the North has any culture beyond bland cosmopolitan consumerism lmao

>>3247858
Oh I get, so now that you don't have starving Irishmen to exploit and conscript you're going to get the Mexicans to fight actual Americans this time hahahahahaha

>>3247858
>you just can't take Union property with you :)
Where does this idea that Confederacy was some sort of anarcho capitalist society even come from? Our states = our property, Yankees arent welcome including the fed

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Nothing to do with slavery, nope, nothing.

>>3242612
>unwinnable
>implying the union was not shitting themselves at bull run

>>3248057
No, the states can go, but the forts they sold the Union were by all means legal property owned by the Union, unless, of course you argue against the very same Jeffersonian ideals that you stood up for and seceded to upkeep.

>>3248040
>southerners who took better care of their slaves than y'all did your payed labor force
Just like the slave owner who fucked his own slave daughter and made her his concubine by the age of 12?

>>3248049
I wish there were more to exploit so we had less Irish niggers.

Friendly reminder that the South chimped out because their Presidential pick didn't win. Dixies were the original #NotMyPresident folk.

>>3248024
>hello federal government, here, buy this club
>okay south carolina
>federal government, i don't recognize your authority anymore
>okay south carolina
>i'm going to murder you if you don't give me back my club
>what the fuck south carolina
>THIS IS MORE YANKEE OPREESSSSSION PREPARE 4 WAR U FUCKING TYRANT
the absolute STATE of americans.

>>3249168
>but the forts they sold the Union
were by all means legal property owned by the Union, unless, of course you argue against the very same Jeffersonian ideals that you stood up for and seceded to upkeep.
M8 we declared that the federal government's authority and property were a direct threat to jeffersonian ideals lmao

In other words, the fed needed to leave. They didn't sell the forts after secession lmao

>>3249168
>Just like the slave owner who fucked his own slave daughter and made her his concubine by the age of 12?
You mean like all the little kids who lost fingers and hands working for pennies and hour who breathed in coal dust? Or maybe all the women burning to death in textile industries because their lives weren't worth safety standards? I mean you have cherry pick one pedophile among everyone else who rated their slaves as either extended family of prized cattle (well fed, lots of medical attention, emotional connections etc)

>>3249180
>Secede from Union
>Declare federal government is tyrannical and needs to fuck off
>Allows federal government to reinforce forts with extra men and munitions
The absolute STATE of Nigerians...

>>3249240
They weren't obliged to sell the forts since it was legally their property, and they clearly had rights to access their said property through the harbor due to easement. In other words, the South didn't really care about the same rights that they so fervently believed in after all. You're only argument against the fort is "fuck off lmao", which is sloppy and an example of the dixie mindset. "It's okay for us to disregard rights but not you lololol".

>>3249260
They are legally allowed to maintain their property are they not? Secondly, Anderson knew the S.C. militia at any chance would attempt to remove them from the fort, again, property that S.C. sold to the Union, going against the very same rights you dixies chimp on about to this day. Anderson was proven right when the Star of the West was shot at by cadets.

>>3246234
Chinese aren't human

>>3244538
>he fucken owned slaves
They weren't his they belonged to his wife's family.

>>3249675
>My wife's slave

>>3247313
>states are federal government property
Absolute retard.

>>3246234
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

>>3249252
I love this redneck deflection, this whataboutism that tries to pretend the condition of slavery wasn't all that bad because Gilded Age workers had it bad (at the moment).

You might not realize this, but there were ways the downtrodden factory workers could improve their condition, democratic means to safeguard workers' rights. The progressive age shows this quite clearly. The slaves never had a democratic option to fix their lot.

Now shut the fuck up, you inbred retard.

>>3249851
Slaves unironically had it better than gilded age workers.
Slaves were property, slave owners generally didn't want to damage their own property, otherwise they lose money. Factory workers had zero protections and could be readily replaced should someone die in the process, meaning the manager gave no shits if a worker was mangled in the machinery.
Not an American, btw.

>>3240795
Sending even more young soldiers to their untimely deaths over Part 2 of an easily avoidable war because of some self-righteous moralizing would have been the greater evil by several magnitudes.

>>3240795
Like OMG, right?! Why didn't Lincoln hang this alt-right scum? I'm soooooo triggered at Lee and his monuments, they offend me! Fuck Donald Drumpf and his fascist supporters! Fuck Lee! Fuck the Confederacy! I need a safe space now!! Why does he get two scoops?!

What's Sherman's March to the Sea?

>>3240795

Reminder that the union intentionally starved 600 prisoners of war to death

>>3249851
>Had the means to improve their lives
>Democratic means to protect themselves in the gilded age
Lol look at the yankee intellectualize wage slavery as if it was any different than actual slavery in name only. The working conditions and living conditions of the slums in major Yankee industrial centers were FAR worse in comparison to cotton picking and farming work. Yankee prisons were worse than taking lashes from the whip. Yankee life was being exploited by fat cats that took your livelihoods just so they could have their egos eased by being able to compete with Europe. We fought against all of that and yet you Yankee fucks still get assblasted that we kept slaves in better conditions than the so called "working class" men, women, and children up North. Hell all you had to do was allow industrialization to create modern farm equipment and then slaves would no longer work hard labor, and eventually the institution itself would be no longer needed.

>>3247990
>>3249829

Yes the territory of the United States is property of the United States. Try taking it and see what happens. The South found out in the Civil War.

>>3248057
>Yankees arent welcome including the fed

Try telling DC that, sweetheart. We own you.

>>3249252
>Republican tactic of downplaying literal slavery
>Implying slave masters didn't rape and molest the shit out of their slaves

The absolute state of the Right is amazing. I thought these people were supposed to be moral Christians.?

>>3243965
>/pol

Hello, reddit

>>3250022
>WE WUZ CONFEDERATES

Just stop kiddo.

>>3249955

Sherman decided that rather than wasting American lives in a war that the South was very likely to lose, he would have his army destroy the southern economy instead by burning some fields, houses, factories, and barns, and destroying infrastructure as they marched from Atlanta to Savannah. The march was wildly successful, shortening the war and greatly harming the south's ability to conduct it while sparing the lives of both his and the enemy soldiers.

Southerners are still buttblasted about it to this day.

>>3244882
So just leave the black people to be raped, tortured, murdered, and sold, while we waited another few generations? That is absurd, and and would have required that there be no moral equation to abolition. I don't think its crazy how pro life activists act because they believe babies are being murdered. So once the North felt those of African descent were human it became a moral imperative to end slavery by any means.

>>3250169
>>3250180
>When Yanks have nothing to argue
>They b8
Weird how people more willing to treat their citizens like shit, brainwash them, and force them into service via economic incentive seem to win wars instead of decent people winning...

Almost like Machiavelli was right

>>3250194
>raped, tortured, murdered, and sold,
>This is what Yanks actually believe
Wew lad, most slaves were treated like glorified cattle, in other words high amounts of medical attention and being well fed, not mistreated because mistreated slaves, like animals, cause problems. Etc.

Yeah you should've waited for technology to catch up so that you didn't have to kill 600,000 men just so minor amounts of abuse among slave owners didn't occur lmao.

The horrors of war >>>>>>>>>> the horrors of slavery

>>3245500
yes it does, the debt still isn't paid

>>3245748
>Revisionist history
It's revisionist to say otherwise lmao that has always been what historians have said

>>3249885
Well that is obvious because you have no knowledge of how slavery in america worked. Making someone slave for you day in and out requires a certain measure of compulsion that measure in the united states usually came in the form of torture.

>>3250206
It is truly impressive how someone can be so wrong. The civil war lasted under 5 years. If you think that would compare to the suffering of slaves until the south theoretically gave up slavery you are delusional. And no, slaves were treated considerably worse than cattle. Unless you southerners go around raping your cattle. Or what about the families broken up? Or the execution of runaway slaves. This was a system of murder and rape. And allowing it to continue would have destroyed the soul of this country.

>>3250212
Please supply a peer reviewed source?

>>3250248
>Under 5 years
>600,000 military deaths plus whatever civilians died from starvation and disease
>Compared to how slaves were treated even though they were treated far better than the "working class" in the north
It is truly impressive how someone can be so triggered. And no, the Yankee working class/wage slaves were treated considerably worse than cattle. Unless you northerners go around cramming your cattle into dense and polluted ghetto and have them burn to death/get mailed by machinery with not reimbursement to the individual/family. . Or what about the families broken up? Or the execution of criminals just trying to feed their families? This was a system of murder and rape. Allowing it to continue would have destroyed the soul of this country.


Kid, you need to read more non-propoganda sometimes.

https://www.quora.com/Did-any-Southern-slave-owners-have-good-employee-relations-with-their-slaves

>>3250284
Lol no slaves were treated considerably worse than Northern factory workers. What you don't seem to respect is this thing called freedom of determination. No matter how bad it was in the North at the end of the day they could still walk away from it all and try to make a better life. They could vote, had some level of legal protection. And at the end of the day they had control. As evidenced by the enormous change in the state of laber in the 20th century. Comparing this to actual slavery is pathetic.

You honestly posted a quora link? There was nothing to stop the poster of your "proof" from either lying or that is simply cherry picked data. Where is the peer review? Or we could go with the majority of slaves who did not want to go back into slavery and did not support the southern slave state.

>>3250185
>sparing lives by destroying infrastructure
Huh.
On one hand, life is precious and blah blah blah. On the other, shit like farms and factories would've lasted way longer than the generation that fought the American Civil War, especially when Southern industrial development at that time was so fledgeling and spread-out.
On the other other hand, this was the Atlantic coast, not the fucking midwest. I'm sure the carpetbaggers managed to get most of that shit replaced before the Southern Redemption came and got them all to leave.

>>3250321
>Where is the peer review?
The book he listed you moron
>Freedom of choice
Oh yeah because those wage slaves losing their arms and children in factories had soooo much choice lmao. Face it, even slaves in the South had a better life than immigrants in the North. If you bothered to actually read the link you would read through the testimony of slaves on their masters as well...

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>>3250412
>>3250284
>quora
>"Kid"

LOL

O

L

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Is this what /pol/ wants to believe?

Lee was still a revered figure in the South and pushed hard for reconstruction and reconciliation. He only distrusted more radical republican proposals.

>>3250412
>cletus wants to believe all books published on earth are peer reviewed

>>3249429
I mean pretty much this.

>South Carolina sells property to the Federal government
>Federal government man's it
>South Carolina secedes, that doesn't negate the prior transaction but SC chimps out anyway
>Government moved reinforcements to Sumter because SC is chimping out
>SC attacks which is exactly why the fuck they needed reinforcements to begin with
>Dixies : REEEEEE NORTHERN TYRANNY WE WUZ SUPPRESSED N SHIEEEEET

The South chimped out over a non-issue, attacked the federal government, and then continued to be assblasted for near 200 years.

>>3250474
>>3250490
>Being this triggered
>Admitting that slaves lived in better conditions than Italians and Austrians but too stupid to read the graph he just googled

L O L
O
L

Sorry buddy, but that book is peer reviewed I don't know what else to tell you incestuous concrete monkeys

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>>3250507
>Secedes from federal government
>that doesn't negate the prior transactions with the federal government

Except that does

L.M A O
M
A
O

>Yankee intellectuals

>>3250580
>Slaves lived better than austrians and Italians

That's really not saying much. Italians still think it's perfectly fine for 4 generations to live in a 3 bedroom house.

>>3250583
>Sells land to you at an agreed price
>Lmao nevermind Ill take that land back and keep the money

The absolute state of Dixieniggers everybody

>>3250591
It's not really surprising, their "whites" have the largest amount of nigger blood in the nation so it's only logical they would exhibit nigger behavior too.

>>3250583
>Supposedly believes in Jeffersonian ideals and secedes because of it
>We'll just disregard any prior legal contracts of property sold to the Union
>It was a war of rights!1!1!

HMM. You really prove that the dixies were just manchildren assmad that Lincoln won. At this point just post #NotMyPresident and head on to >>>/r/LostCause

>>3250591
>Sells land to entity
>Entity betrays seller
>Dude wtf this is my land
The absolute state of Yankee niggers

>>3250626
They fought for independence in itself under the justification that federal government would not and will not respect jeffersonian ideals of democracy. In other words
>If we work with these guys then we are finished , our idealogy is finished, and our people will suffer
So then they decided
>We're going to have to use force to protect our freedom from these people
Jefferson NEVER advocated for being a pacifist before tyranny

>>3250706
>>We're going to have to use force to protect our freedom from these people
Which means they started the war. They may have thought it justified, but you literally just admitted they started it

>>3250748
>Which means they started the war.
No, it means we are willing to use force should someone come and use force against us. Which you did. By reinforcing the forest after we told you that we do not recognize the North as our countrymen anymore. You started this damn thing when you reinforced forts in an obvious attempt to build up resources for an invasion

>>3250706
>would not and will not respect jeffersonian ideals of democracy
Nor did they. They lost an election and chimped out because of it. Jefferson would have been ashamed by the conduct of the South in that regard.
>We're going to have to use force to protect our freedom from these people
Yeah, by firing at a fort that was not theirs in the first place.

>>3250197
WE

>>3250212
So 12 Years a Slave is bullshit huh?

>>3250197
You clearly have your head so far up your ass with southern propaganda. It's impossible to argue with you.

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>>3250775
I don't know what else to tell you pavement apes, the South seceded because the North was acting tyrannical , I mean are yo expecting me to forget the quote from Thomas Jefferson
>The tree of liberty must be fed with blood of tyrants and patriots
Jeffersonian democracy is not anarcho capitalism
>>3251284
>A book made by an abolitionists adapted into a movie loosely based on a freak incident where one man in the North was sold into slavery
Was mostly fake, yeah. "Based on a true story" =/= true story

>>3251300
No I'd say it's you who obviously hasn't read into southern history if you think slaves were being murdered, raped, and tortured every single second of every single day just to spite black people lmao that's some nice BLM revisionism you have there

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>>3251300
>You don't believe what I believe in therefore you are an unenlightened scrub
>Wake up sheeple

I don't understand reconciliation fags in this thread, in virtually every civil war the losing sides ring-leaders get hanged for being traitors and subversives or as tyrants.

Killing Lee and maybe other Confederate leaders would have showed the South that they had completely lost the argument, instead of "muh noble cause" bullshit.

Can we get back to Lee guys, instead of igniting an unnecessary north-south divide.

>>3246242
U fuggen wot?

>>3246495
I'm sorry are we talking about Lee or Thomas Jefferson here? Because that'd be true for both men.

>>3252354
>South seceded because the North was acting tyrannical
Again, the South seceded because their choice of President lost a democratic election. It was a direct attack on the democratic institutions our Founding Fathers built up. The South's views on "democratic ideals" were arbitrary and selfish in nature, and instead of choosing to be honorable they chose bloodshed.
>The tree of liberty must be fed with blood of tyrants and patriots
So he would agree that every southerner who participated in the suppression of Uncle Tom's Cabin should have hung? The outright disregard for the freedoms of speech and press is another sickening example of "dixie ideals".
>Jeffersonian democracy is not anarcho capitalism
Nobody ever said it was.

>>3244538
And?
My great grandfather gassed jews during WW2, yet he was morally opposed to the holocaust
Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do, regardless of personal ideals

>>3243960
>he doesnt realize that the industrial might of the North won them the war.
>He doesnt know that the agrarian south was industrially and technologically stagnated by slavery

These two simple facts are exactly why slavery would have died out on its own in time.

>>3253170
>he South's views on "democratic ideals" were arbitrary and selfish in nature, and instead of choosing to be honorable they chose bloodshed.
No the North elected a president who was going to act in an extremely authoritarian manner to crack down on the South after he promised to reign them in. So they saw him and the North as being tyrannical fat cats, which you were and still are. There is no honor in cowering in the face of tyranny.
>So he would agree that people I don't like should've been killed
Nope
>Uncle Tom's cabin wasn't sensationalist garbage
Nope. As I also said before, slaves lived in better condition than the immigrants in the north and we're not mistreated 24/7 with rape murder and torture. What you northerners did to supposedly "free" men is far worse than anything that happened in the South.
>Nobody ever said this
Then I guess you're a moron for bringing up muh property rights then huh?

>>3253339
>No the North elected a president
No, I'm pretty sure the country elected a President.
>Nope
lol. So he's okay with people infringing on liberty, then?
>Then I guess you're a moron for bringing up muh property rights then huh?
Then I guess you don't care for Jeffersonian ideals?

>>3253453
>No, I'm pretty sure the country elected a President
Nope, just the north. Had the South not been dark horsed it would've been over 80% against Lincoln in favor of Breckinridge , but even then a lot of people in the South were just fed up with having to deal with Northerners. The secession could've been peaceful had you just not reinforced thr forts.
>Infringing on liberty
You don't have to sell certain products if you don't want to
>Back to the ancap memes again
Lmao , like I keep trying to tell you, when an entity threatens the rights of the whole you stand up to it's tyranny. Keep playing stupid though

>>3252451
>Killing Lee and maybe other Confederate leaders would have showed the South that they had completely lost the argument
Seems like a good way to breed generational hatred.

>>3253513
>, but even then a lot of people in the South were just fed up with having to deal with Northerners.
>loses a popular election
>"IT'S NOT FAIR UR CHEATING WE'RE GOING HOME!"
It doesn't work that way, anon. Just because the winning candidate didn't need your vote doesn't mean that you're not being represented or that you're oppressed. It means that you're on the wrong side of history and it's time to change with the times.
>he secession could've been peaceful had you just not reinforced thr forts.
Oh yeah, because we're just going to hand a fraction of the country to the unabashed, expansionary slavers who had taken over the state governments on a silver platter. Jesus, this is what Bomber Harris meant when he said that racial purists bomb other people without expecting to be bombed, themselves. You unironically blame us for not letting your grandpappies expand slavery to the Caribbean, Midwest, and Mexico. It's not oppression when people are stopping you from oppressing more people than you were yesterday

>>3253170
Its not very democratic when your region has fewer votes, and so loses every election.

Should China and India be able to dictate what the UN does, considering they have enough people to decide every vote?

>>3253564
No, it would have properly broken their spirits and got them to abandon this idea where waging war on your own country is "patriotic" because the big bad democratically elected president is coming to take your stolen labor away.

To this day southerners are lazy shits looking for a hand-out and a way to weasel out of an honest day's work, and it's because of their culture of lionizing welfare queens

>>3253573
>Its not very democratic when your region has fewer votes, and so loses every election.
So should the federalists have seceded when they could no longer muster the votes to win elections, or should they have adapted with the times?

>>3253513
>You don't have to sell certain products if you don't want to
Except it wasn't sold it was outright banned.
>Lmao , like I keep trying to tell you, when an entity threatens the rights of the whole you stand up to it's tyranny. Keep playing stupid though
So Jefferson is against protecting your own property?
>Had the South not been dark horsed it would've been over 80% against Lincoln in favor of Breckinridge
Nope.
"The split in the Democratic party is sometimes held responsible for Lincoln’s victory,[28] but he would still have won in the Electoral College, 169 to 134, if all of the anti-Lincoln voters had united behind a single candidate"

>>3244761

only the most degenerate parts of the south still call it that

>>3245761
>I felt bad for black students having to hear that "muh States Rights" meme.
Don't like it, they can go diversify Liberia.

>>3253741
Too bad, they're working together to undo years of systemic abuse and there's nothing you can do to stop them.

And if you really need to live in a racist, badly educated pit of vulture capitalism ruled by a strongman, maybe you'd prefer living in Russia?

>>3245789
>implying the concept of sovereign waters even existed yet in any sort of legal framework

LOL cletus, stay classy

>south gets BTFO
>Nazis gets BTFO

>Muh revisionism

All those statues are gonna get melted down hahaha who the fuck openly supports losers like the CSA and Nazi Germany? LARPing must be fun...

>>3253608
>Except it wasn't sold it was outright banned.
Except thats a lie it was never banned, stores in the South just refused to sell it.
>So Jefferson is against protecting your property
*From tyrants, like the North
>Nope
Yep. I just said that had the Dems not been dark horsed the South would've voted for the Democratic candidate because all of the South was against Lincoln. Another issue the South had with the North was the electoral Congress representation
Thanks for proving my point you butthurt yank

>>3253986
>Liberal Democrats
Vs
>Authoritarian fascist
Why do people compare the Confederacy to Nazism lmao, go to bed cleetus

>>3254012
>Thanks for proving my point you butthurt yank
Not even that guy but holy shit, he just totally crushed you and all you have is some conspiracy about "dark horsing"? Got any primary sources to back up those farcical claims?

>>3253185
How did he end up working at a concentration camp?

Like what sequence of events led him into genocide, anon? I'm curious.

>>3254016
Both were garbage and scrubbed out the first real war they fought only for losers to romanticized the defeated because it's just too common to support the victor when the victor's won

>>3254012
>*From tyrants, like the North
Who tried to make the owner of the forts to leave their property again?
>Except thats a lie it was never banned, stores in the South just refused to sell it.
" It was banned as abolitionist propaganda in the South, and a number of pro-slavery writers responded with so-called “Anti-Tom literature.”
From http://bindings.lib.ua.edu/gallery/uncletom.html
"Although banned in most of the south, it served as another log on the growing fire." From http://www.ushistory.org/us/28d.asp
Also, regardless of the sensationalist and fictitious nature of the book, it is still, by all accounts protected under the freedoms of expression. So, yes, Jefferson would not appreciate a bunch of assmad dixies banning it from publication in the South.
>Yep. I just said that had the Dems not been dark horsed the South would've voted for the Democratic candidate because all of the South was against Lincoln.
Again, same country. Didn't matter in the end, since Lincoln would win regardless of them backing a single candidate. They voted, it was counted, they still lost. The South is fine with democracy when it suits them but when they finally lose it's chimping out time.

>>3254192
>Who tried to make the owner of the forts to leave their property again?
Who was using Imbalances in the electoral system that occurred via mass immigration to muffle the South again? Who reinforced the forts again despite being told multiple times that doing so was an act of war?
>It was banned
Not by state governments, people just refused to sell it in stores as said kindling reference you made implied. Paper is paper desu
>Lincoln would win regardless of them backing a single candidate
Except this extreme differences in the electoral college between the two competing sections would inevitably lead to conflict as the federal government could essentially bypass anything the South wanted resting on the excuse that immigration gave them higher numbers while the South's lack in industrialization hardly grew the population at all. Lincoln would've still won, yes, but it would still permenantly reveal that there wasn't going to be a solution to this issue where the Union was preserved.

The South should've been able to secede peacefully , but noooo "That would make us look bad to Europe and they would refuse to sell us their cotton and just sell it all to Britain" so you invaded, and 600,000 people died.

all the south defended was the rights of the state to make their own laws, the union big boy economy didnt need slaves anymore so demonized the south for being an agricultural society, they didnt do anything wrong, the union were the warmongers. im not American but this has been obvious to me for ages, the minds of the slaves were used to get what the union the wealth and power they wanted not what they thought would improve the lives of blacks. this debate in america atm is pissing me off, spitting on and misunderstanding your own history, shame on you antifa/liberal fools

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>>3254383
>he South should've been able to secede peacefully , but noooo "That would make us look bad to Europe and they would refuse to sell us their cotton and just sell it all to Britain" so you invaded, and 600,000 people died.
Kill yourself, traitor. Your overlords were just buttblasted that they were being made to submit to the democratic process so they revolted. Secession was ruled unconstitutional by Texas v. White: Secession makes us a less perfect union. Secession impedes the free flow of commerce and information between states. Secession allowed some of the most vile humans who ever lived to continue their freeloader lifestyle as the systematic thieves of labor, which they would have spread to the midwest, Mexico, and the Caribbean. We did the world a favor by stopping this from happening

>>3254433
>Kill yourself, traitor
You first, traitor. All you did was slaughter 600,000 people in the name of maintain your ego so Europeans wouldn't look down on you while the South prospered away from your abuses of the Democratic process. We didn't design the electoral college to PROTECT the tyranny of the majority we designed it to prevent such injustice. You treated the working class like easily replaced cogs in the machine and called them """"”"free""""""" men while you had the nerve to sensationalize blatant lies about how we treated our slaves. We somehow treated slaves better than you treated free men, that's all I need to know.

All of slavery was about to be completely replaced by the expansion of agriculture technology under industrialization and all you had to do was wait 20 years for it to end. It's that same Yankee mentality that gives you morons the nerve to over the any foreign government that gets in the way of your oil extraction today.

Kill yourself, you betrayed the principles of liberty and self determination more than the South ever could've dreamed.

>>3254139
>Who would lie on the internet?

>>3254383
>Who was using Imbalances in the electoral system that occurred via mass immigration to muffle the South again? Who reinforced the forts again despite being told multiple times that doing so was an act of war?
So we're back at the road where the South didn't care about property rights regarding the forts? And now you wanna bring up the electorate system as being unfair? You're starting to sound exactly like the same liberals you've more than likely bashed this week.
Democrats up until those recent times dominated the government. From 1828 to 1860 there were five Democrat aligned Presidents, one had two terms. So, again, the one time they have lost in 32yrs they decide to chimp out. Now suddenly the electorate system is unbalanced? It didn't seem unbalanced when the Dems kept winning.
>Not by state governments, people just refused to sell it in stores as said kindling reference you made implied. Paper is paper desu
Yet everything I've read thus far says it was outright banned in some states. Even the ALA (American Library Association) has it listed on the banned and censored list.
>"That would make us look bad to Europe and they would refuse to sell us their cotton and just sell it all to Britain"
lmao. You do realize that Europe began importing cotton from Egypt, right? So your cotton economy wasn't even viable in the future. So, at the end of the day we come to the conclusion that the South were mad they lost an election fair and square, and mad that they couldn't remove the property owners from the forts.

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>>3254478
Jesus, the mental gymnastics with this one
>r. All you did was slaughter 600,000 people in the name of maintain your ego so Europeans wouldn't look down on you
Those deaths are on the hands of the ones who fought and died to preserve systematic exploitation. The whole reason that the south switched from the "blacks are subhuman beasts" to "muh states rights" is because they were laughed out of every court in Europe, and was only mildly teased in Britain but even that was buried after the Emancipation Proclamation. The South was being outcompeted by the north by virtually every measurable metric; recognition by Europe was their only realistic shot of victory, and guess what? Yankees are better diplomats than confederates.

>while the South prospered away from your abuses of the Democratic process.
The South was a rotting carcass poisoned by unearned wealth. Why do you think it had so few electoral votes? Because northern industry was taking off and they were stuck in a medieval mindset and had let a single industry and tiny cluster of plantation owners virtually take over their economy.

>We didn't design the electoral college to PROTECT the tyranny of the majority we designed it to prevent such injustice
You lost that in the election of 1860, too

> You treated the working class like
The difference is that in the northern model the workers had a way of peacefully organizing and improving their living conditions over time. In the south they were shackled in a barn and whipped when they picked up a book or didn't make their quota.

>All of slavery was about to be completely replaced by the expansion of agriculture
more lies. Google Bleeding Kansas. Slavery was expanding. The entire reason they seceded was because they wanted to spread slavery west and Lincoln said, "you can keep your slaves but you're not making new slave states"

>you betrayed the principles of liberty
Said the bootlicker openly defending slave owners

>>3240804
we should have redistributed the land of confederate generals to free slaves. that way all the big important confederates become super poor and families fall into obscurity and who gives a shit if about a bunch of failures with no land. and all the free slaves get some good land to do shit with.

>>3254577
>Democrats up until those recent times dominated the government. From 1828 to 1860 there were five Democrat aligned Presidents, one had two terms.
Because the topic of the South hadn't become a hot button issue yet and sections tensions we're not so horrible
>Yet everything I've read thus far says it was outright banned in some states
Yet you haven't provided any sources yet , and is a non issue.
>Muh property of the federal government over and over and over again
Keep asking the same question I'm going to give you the same answer. The tree of liberty must he watered the blood of tyrants(you) and patriots.
>They were getting cotton from Egypt
Okay. They would also get cheaper cotton from us...

At the end of the day it was just pure Yankee Agression and egoism, we wanted independence to create a better society and nation than what the North was becoming.

You STILL refuse to recognize the exploitation of your working class which was by all accounts worse than anything under slavery.

>>3254581
>Those deaths are on the hands of the ones who fought and died to preserve systematic exploitation
So you and the way you treated """"""free""""" men. 100% agree with that, glad you finally came over.
>Implying the North liked black people at all
Topkek , Yankee delusion, how didn't Great Migration treat you lmao
>Yankees were better diplomats
*Had more money by exploiting the working class
>Muh northern superiority of maiming small women and children to impress Europeans
>But we're still the great lovers of liberty
Yankee cognitive dissonance at it's finest.
>No comeback to tyranny of the major
I wonder why
>peacefully organizing
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHSHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA yeah no I'm sure they appreciated the Pinkertons you fucking bootlicker faggot.
>Bleeding kansas
Already knew about it, and no slavery was not expanding anywhere in the world , all over the western world it was being replaced by industrialization and the South was going to catch up eventually after some time, but unfortunately you cuck spergs had to invade.

>>3254633
>>3254669
Is this the power of autism?

>>3254592
Thanks for the input, Lenin

>>3254433
kill YOURSELF, traitor

long live the queen

I'm serious btw, "traitor" is a non-argument and the faux-nationalism that leftists are now trying to play it is paradoxical and more than that incredibly fucking annoying

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>>3254669
>So you and the way you treated """"""free""""" men.
In Capitalism, you sell your labor to an employer in exchange for a wage. In slavery, your employer forces you at gun point to keep working.

You're examining the speck in other people's eye and ignoring the plank in your own

>>Implying the North liked black people at all
Show me one picture of a free northern black with whip marks
>*Had more money by exploiting the working class
What do you think the European powers were doing to their working classes? If you hate capitalism that much and need state sponsored tyranny, why not go live in North Korea?
>I wonder why
Because it's inane dribble and I only have 2,000 words to pick your retarded shit to pieces
>f maiming small women and children
Losers whine about trying their best, winners think of victory. Grant and Sherman knew that well enough, that's why Grant kept Lee pinned at Richmond while Sherman destroyed the South's means of waging war. That's the brutal reality of war between industrialized nations is that it's a competition between economies: winning battles takes second fiddle to knocking out their ability to replace battlefield losses. Honor in warfare is ritualized suicide.
>I'm sure they appreciated the Pinkertons
No, what they appreciated were the unions that formed up specifically to protect them from privatized tyranny. Do you really think that the confederates would have let slaves form a union?
>Already knew about it, and no slavery was not expanding anywhere in the world ,
You clearly have no fucking clue about bleeding Kansas otherwise you'd know that it was an armed conflict with slave-supporters who were there specifically to import slaves to the state. You obviously don't know shit, which is why you don't have any fucking sources for any of this "muh slavery was dying" myth. The cotton gin was a labor-saving device. It made cotton less labor-intensive to make. They called it "King Cotton" because it had taken over the economy

>>3254633
>Because the topic of the South hadn't become a hot button issue yet and sections tensions we're not so horrible
Nope. Andrew Jackson literally almost had to use force on S.C. for when it threatened to secede over tariffs.
>Yet you haven't provided any sources yet , and is a non issue.
I literally posted two excerpts with links to the page, then told you that even the ALA included it on lists of banned books. You've posted nothing saying it wasn't banned. It is an example of your hypocrisy and the South's hypocrisy to the freedoms.
>Okay. They would also get cheaper cotton from us...
lol. Cheap or not, they were not going to buy dixie cotton. Cotton Diplomacy was a failure.
>Keep asking the same question I'm going to give you the same answer. The tree of liberty must he watered the blood of tyrants(you) and patriots.
So Jefferson would have advocated for the hanging of the men who banned Uncle Tom's Cabin, then?
>You STILL refuse to recognize the exploitation of your working class which was by all accounts worse than anything under slavery.
Ironic that you go on about self-determination and Jeffersonian ideals but when it comes to self-determination of workers it's "slavery is better hurrr".

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>>3254687

>>3254778
>Show me one picture of a free northern black with whip marks
I can show you a black hanging from lposys and being burned alive in the streets from race riots,ni can show you pictures of young children missing fingers and the burned corpses of women working in factories with no safety conditions or healthcare. I can show you the shit reeking streets of Yankee cities that poor people were crammed into that lead to massive outbreaks of disease for which ou never provided doctors did (we have slaves medical attention and food whenever needed. Think about that)
>Capitalism means you need to fuck over the working clas to impress your buddies in Europe
No
>He thinks by mining women and children I was talking about war
I was talking about your working conditions you Yankee bastard.
>Unions that formed up
After hundreds of people being murdered and dying in workplace """"'incidents"""
>Implying the slaves needed a union
They didn't, because we actually trested them like glorified cattle and extended family. Some people.msitresyed slaves, sure, but to propose that it happened en masse is ridiculous.
>
You clearly have no fucking clue about bleeding Kansas otherwise you'd know that it was an armed conflict with slave-supporter
Does John brown not ring a bell you flpping moron, it was armed conflict between abolitionists and anti-abolitionists where ultra Christians eat against each other in the name of God. And what happened to this slave rebellion Brown tried to lead? Do you remember? :^)
>Slavery was dying myth
All around the word slavery had been dying out. All around the world it was gradually decreasing because of industrialization, I shouldn't need to point to the minimization and outlawing of slavery in Europe you should already know. The cotton gin was invented which already made the use of slaves less needed through technological expansion.

You're the one peddling the myth you child maiming oppressive bastard

>>3254786
>Nope
Yep. That was one state not the whole of the South.
>It is an example of hypocrisy
Being on the list of banned books does not mean states banned it, it just means it was banned en masse. That doesn't imply the states in the South all got together and got and banned it. Yo had small counties ban it by having shops refuse to purchase it, and like Huckleberry Finn today it is banned by certain schools because of racist language in case you didn't already know that
>Cheap or not, they were not going to buy dixie cotton.
They would've had you not fucking invaded us.
>So Jefferson would have advocated for the hanging of the men who banned Uncle Tom's Cabin, then?
Jeffersonian Democracy *is not* anarcho capitalism. We are talking about massive political entities not individual. People who infringe on the sovereignty of others through the use of force break the social contract, people who refuse to purchase a product are not even in the same category lmao
>Ironic that you go on about self-determination and Jeffersonian ideals but when it comes to self-determination of workers it's "slavery is better hurrr".
It's not that slavery is better, it's that your concept of """"""free men"""""" is just that much worse than literal slavery. On top of that it was going to end

>>3254791
No, this is the power of autism
>Lose debate
>Y-yeah well you lost!
Pathetic

>>3254855
>South hadn't become a hot button issue yet and sections tensions we're not so horrible
>Yep. That was one state not the whole of the South.
The South had been a hotbed of slavery debate since the fucking Three-Fifths compromise. Second, there were urgings and outright widespread talk of secession during 1798 when the Alien and Sedition Acts was signed in.
>They would've had you not fucking invaded us.
AHAHA. War or not, they had no intentions of provoking any aggression on the American continent.
>Being on the list of banned books does not mean states banned it, it just means it was banned en masse.
Provide proof that it wasn't banned by the states, or any government entity including counties.
>Jeffersonian Democracy *is not* anarcho capitalism.
You're right, it isn't.
>people who refuse to purchase a product
Except it was banned from publication in the South.
>refuse to purchase a product are not even in the same category lmao
They are when they literally aid in infringing the rights of the publishers to release the book to the public.
>it's that your concept of """"""free men"""""" is just that much worse than literal slavery
Yeah, it is much better being unpaid cattle and only considered three-fifths a person without a right to vote than have the ability to work where you please, vote and have freedom of travel. Jefferson would be rolling in his grave that you even make that moral comparison.

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>>3254825
>I can show you
But what you can't show me is a northern black with whip marks. No matter how hard you try to deflect, that is one truth you can't escape. No yankee ever stopped a black man from moving back to Africa if he hated it that much.
>No
Nothing you can say about northern capitalism even comes close to the widespread cruelties of slavery, and unlike slavery, capitalism gradually righted itself of cruelties. If capitalism were really so bad as you say, then why were so many people so eager to emigrate to the United States? People didn't come expecting the streets to be paved with gold, they came looking for opportunity, of which there was plenty to be found if you were entrepreneurial enough. The southern system stifled entrepreneurialism.
>your working conditions
You have so much wangsting to do about the working conditions of yankees and nothing at all to say about the working conditions of confederates, who were on a whole much poorer, mired in rural poverty, and the only ones with a decent paycheck were the ones working for slave plantations as overseers.
> lorified cattle and extended family.
Another bald-faced lie. You exploited them. You raped them, whipped them, and kept them shackled in a barn, and shot them when they tried to escape or better themselves. This is widely documented.
>All around the word slavery had been dying out
And all around the world, slave owning societies accepted compensatory emancipation, which is where the government just buys all the slaves at a fair market value and frees them, which for the slave owners themselves was a great freaking deal because it was getting them out of a dying industry. However, the south didn't even want to hear about compensatory emancipation, it wasn't even on the table for them. They outright refused to even consider it. That's because while every other economy had restructured itself to be built around free labor, the confederates doubled down on their glorified welfare state.

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>>3254861
Lost the war, lost the debate. Crying about it won't make your confederate statues magically come back onto their podiums. Assimilate or die