Opium Wars

>>3208252
Britain.

1) Selling drugs is bad.
2) Because it's /pol/'s fad to hate on free trade now: forcing a country to trade with you is also bad.

>>3208265

It did force china to trade with everyone else tho, something i think many chinks appreciate today. But the method of execution, yeahhh I dont think so.

>>3208252
Britain of course, as always.

>>3208252
The jews.

>>3208325

care to explain?

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>>3208276
It was only Britain and a few other counrties that China didn't like trading with.

Largely owing to
1) Experiences with rude & criminal British merchants in the 18th Century.
2) The other Europeans talking shit about Britain. Notably the Dutch, the Spanish, and the French. Although even then these people traded with Chinkdom from sanctioned ports. But still China was far more accomodating to these people than British merchants.

The Qing Dynasty was in regular contact both diplomatically and economically with France, for example.

>>3208350
Didn't the war start though because the Chinks decided to kill an innocent missionary for no reason whatsoever

>>3208367
That was the French Invasion of Indochina. The case of Paul Marchand specifically.

>>3208252
Humans.

>>3208372

I think he's referring to the Boxer Rebellion

>>3208252
Britain acted as a miserable dope pusher
Got the chinese nobility hooked, then cut supply and deal favorable treaties

>>3208928

China got Britain hooked on tea first

>>3208350
Chinks did well. The eternal anglo is like the jews, if nobody likes you maybe you're the problem.

>>3208933
you mean China was sending their navy to Europe to peddle tea?

>>3208933
Wouldn't that be India?

>>3208928
can confirm, old pusher trick

If an Anglo wants to sell a plant to a Chinese merchant, what does that have to do with the Emperor 100s of miles away? It is obvious who was in the wrong.

>>3208252
why would anything be Britain's fault here?

>trading with country
>suddenly country is mad that you're selling something and seizes all your assets without warning because it doesn't know how to police its people

>>3208342
David Sassom

>>3208252
As a Chinese American, I'll say [spoiler]crappy pre-modern medicine which didn't fully grasp the nature of opiates and pre-twentieth century,
non-Mormon society which had no comprehension of the importance of saying 'no' recreational drug use.[/spoiler]

>>3208252
Britain for not getting rid of China

>>3208252
Britain was definitely in the wrong, but how else was Britain supposed to balance a trade deficit if they couldn't provide any trading goods that China wanted?

We're seeing much of the same problem today, where nations are trading Chinese manufactured goods in exchange for loans, bonds, and even public debt in the case of the US, and the only way to fix such a deficit is to produce a good that China needs, which is tough to do for a nearly self-sufficient nation.

So far the only nation to remedy a chinese trade deficit with China is Russia, who sells natural gas in exchange for goods to balance trade, makes me wonder what the US/the West will come up with nowadays to shift trade with China back into their favor.

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Gay-sians BTFO

>>3208265
>selling drugs is bad
What if people want to buy those drugs

>>3209642

China buys a lot of commodities from first world countries like Autralia and from third world countries, somebody has to feed them and provide their factories with copper and stuff.

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>>3208252

The Chinese.

They refused to see the writing on the wall that the world was changing and instead of using their superior economic position (early on) to learn about the West and adopt Western tech and practices that would be advantageous to them, the Chinese reveled in their ignorance and isolation and arrogantly insisted on only trading tea for silver, a wholly unsustainable system.

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>>3209642
>the only way to fix such a deficit is to produce a good that China needs

Nonsense, China's growth has been wholly driven by the Wall Street's greed, not because the Chinese are better at making stuff.

China makes nothing the U.S. can't make here at home and make cheeper and better but that would under cut the profit margin of a handful of parasites on Wall Street who control out government.

>>3209336
If an Chinaman wants to sell a fentanyl to a American merchant, what does that have to do with the President 100s of miles away? It is obvious who was in the wrong.

No one was in the wrong.
It was just a collision between two civilizations.

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>>3208350
This.

It's pretty fucking disgusting how Anglo propaganda makes it look like China was trading with no one in the west when in reality it was just Britain who wasn't wanted in the first place.

>>3209431
>why police your own people when you could police other people

>>3210598
anglo propaganda is the worlds best propaganda

>>3208350
>>3210598
The Qing did lock down and control trade using the Canton system though, because fucking Manchus. The Ming dynasty were much freer with trade, but the Qing ruined it all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprouts_of_capitalism

>>3209642
>if they couldn't provide any trading goods that China wanted?
In a better timeline the Chinese traded would have tea and silk for manufactured goods and industrial knowhow. But the Qing emperors of the time were morons who would rather pretend they have everything they need.

>and the only way to fix such a deficit is to produce a good that China needs
Good thing China is buying up overseas property with a vengeance.

>>3209871
>>3209642
The Chinese used to buy a lot of machines and machine parts (For producing the cheap plastic crap they then sell to the West) from Germany, but I believe they've stopped doing that in light of Germany's manufacturing quantity and quality decline and China's growing self sufficiency.

In any case, the question really becomes: What CAN America (And the West as a whole) offer the Chinese that they can't make themselves? This is precisely why the Allies were scared shitless of Germany (not Italy because Italy) actually managing to succeed in their Autarky horseshit. We can't even offer them media because they're buying out Hollywood and buying up stock in the six plus one corporations that dominate the American media. The prevailing attitude in China is that of "Anything they do come up with, we can just steal or bribe to get the patterns and then make it ourselves". The fact that the CCP was able to bribe the Secretary of State into leaking stealth fighter and nuclear weapon plans demonstrates this; we can't even keep them from getting the very means of which we'd fight them.

Given the existential crisis the system the CCP has poses for the entire planet, there's really only two solutions because "The entire world falls apart and we go back to the stone age" isn't one of them:
>China backs down
>China gets fucked over hard
Both end in many dead bodies.

>>3210674
Everyone thought Japan was going to buy the whole planet too, didn't work out. China's time to crash will come.

>>3208252

How many pirates became aristocrats via the illicit opium trade in Asia?

I always imagine the Bush family owes much of it's oldest money to opium purchased by the Chinese, and that the same genes that made successful pirates made a spymaster, maybe two.

>>3210674
fuck back off to /pol/ kthx.

>>3209642
Wasn't China purposely not taking stuff because the way the emperor kept his hold on the populace was by creating a denial of there being any shit outside of China that's better?

>>3208252
The Chinese, how is this even a question?

>>3210867

The emperor and his entire court are extremely, extremely reactionary. They didn't accept American/British offers to build a railroad because they were concerned that the steam engines were too loud and would disturb the mountain gods/spirits. So in the end they build the railroad, but the cars were pulled by horses.

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>>3210912
>were concerned that the steam engines were too loud and would disturb the mountain gods/spirits
>use firework to wake the spirits up
>loud noises also scare away bad spirits

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>>3210867
>Wasn't China purposely not taking stuff because the way the emperor kept his hold on the populace was by creating a denial of there being any shit outside of China that's better?
No, The problem is the court's information of western Europe was lacking after Qianlong. Jesuits in China lost their high standing positions and the Qing court would lose information of the outside world. The Jesuits were highly regarded for their knowledge. Many like Ricci were even seen as Chinese.
But then the Pope came and said Confucian rites were a absolute heresy and that all Christians, including the Chinese Emperor, need to answer to him.
This is a big no no considering the Emperor is literally seen as the Son of Heaven and Universal Sovereign of the World

>>3210674
Or you know, considering the state of America today, America steps aside and cedes supremacy to the East

There are aspects where the Chinese were technically in the wrong, like this >>3209431 points out.

But it think all of that is trumped by the fact that Britain was literally forcefully selling highly addictive drugs to regular people.

>British man goes to China to talk to the emperor
>Doesn't bow down to the emperor
How can anyone think the British where in the right

>>3211139
>A pope saying that everyone has to answer to him
That doesn't sound right, surely the pope would say everyone answer to God?

>>3209814
Then it's exploitative and bad.

>>3211218
>That doesn't sound right, surely the pope would say everyone answer to God?
If he actually said that maybe the Christian's wouldn't be suppressed, but when you send a letter saying HURR DURR I AM HEAD OF CATHOLICS INCLUDING YOU FI YOU CONVERT XDXDAXDDX you are going to have problems.

Edict by Kangxi Emperor
"The Europeans are very quiet; they do not excite any disturbances in the provinces, they do no harm to anyone, they commit no crimes, and their doctrine has nothing in common with that of the false sects in the empire, nor has it any tendency to excite sedition ... We decide therefore that all temples dedicated to the Lord of heaven, in whatever place they may be found, ought to be preserved, and that it may be permitted to all who wish to worship this God to enter these temples, offer him incense, and perform the ceremonies practised according to ancient custom by the Christians. Therefore let no one henceforth offer them any opposition."
>Edict after interaction with Vatican
"Reading this proclamation, I have concluded that the Westerners are petty indeed. It is impossible to reason with them because they do not understand larger issues as we understand them in China. There is not a single Westerner versed in Chinese works, and their remarks are often incredible and ridiculous. To judge from this proclamation, their religion is no different from other small, bigoted sects of Buddhism or Taoism. I have never seen a document which contains so much nonsense. From now on, Westerners should not be allowed to preach in China, to avoid further trouble."

>>3211427
>"Reading this proclamation, I have concluded that the Westerners are petty indeed. It is impossible to reason with them because they do not understand larger issues as we understand them in China. There is not a single Westerner versed in Chinese works, and their remarks are often incredible and ridiculous. To judge from this proclamation, their religion is no different from other small, bigoted sects of Buddhism or Taoism. I have never seen a document which contains so much nonsense. From now on, Westerners should not be allowed to preach in China, to avoid further trouble."

Lel Hundreds of years later and nothings changed

>>3208252
China for breaking the NAP.

>>3209431

Selling opium was illegal in China pre opium war. Chinese were right to dump it into sea.

I'm pretty sure a conviction of selling opium meant the death penalty.

>>3211427
Was this about the Chinese Rites Controversy?

To what extent does the opium epidemic in China that the Opium Wars were fought over act as a counterpoint to the belief among certain groups that harmful drugs ought to be legalized? I mean China was at the point where the opium was causing a trade deficit and the army couldn't even fight the British properly because half the soldiers were on drugs.

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>>3208252
Qing were in the wrong. Good thing that everyone got together and set them right in the end.

>>3211576
Yupp

>>3211820
The outlawing of illegal substances were to happen around a 80-a century or so later after the Opium Wars.

And it wasn't the Opium addiction in China that did it: it was quack medicine and overdosing cases.

>>3209814
Dodging the issue.
Brittain wasn't humanistically promoting freedom of choice. The Chinese government didn't want to trade in order to maintain a certain degree of power and influence over its people. The Brittish government responded in a way that told the whole world it didn't give a shit about the Chinese government and their jurisdiction.

Someone post the Ancap British Empire macro

>>3208252
Both of them, they were both pretentious assholes in the debacle, China thinking they were superior and Britain being a spoiled brat. They are both to be blamed for their less than admirable behaviours during both of the wars.

>>3212432
>Brittain wasn't humanistically promoting freedom of choice.
which is why opium was banned in Britain.

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Question

In the late 19th and early 20th century, caricatures and cartoons of the British usually present them wearing Scottish dress, either a kilt or trews

But from the mid 20th century on, that association completely disappears and the British are aways presented as being fully English

Why is this?

>>3212770
Scotland was very involved with the British empire, I'm reading about book about the raj and it stresses India was seen by poor scottish nobility as a way to make money and get glory, that wouldn't be attainable at home. Irish and Scots made up very large percentages of the British army, mostly forced into service through abject poverty. With the historical seat of power being London and the more working class nature of politics in Scotland and the general association of upper class culture with British and Englishness its not surprising that it has come over time to be disassociated with Scotland. Also nationalism in Scotland tends to view the England as an oppressive force to them, causing them to identify more with the ruled people of the empire. Well thats my two cents anyway.

>>3210674
China is a paper tiger.

>>3208252
The Chinese.

DUDE DRUGS LMAO!!!

STOP BANNING THEM! MAN!

>>3211954
Everyone got together in the end because everyone knew if China collapsed then a mad scramble for it would occur and no one wanted to get drawn into the absolute quagmire of bullshit that is attempting to administer China.

>>3212801
Of course, the question is what blows it over.

>>3209486
Dude you spoiled me.