Were Humans always Apex predators?

>>3197866
>Were Humans always Apex predators /his/?
"no"
>when did they become them?
when they made weapons and developed hunting tactics
>When man first learned to sharpen a stick and kill something with it?
absolutely impossible to pinpoint

>>3197875
>when they made weapons and developed hunting tactics
Chimpanzees make weapons and hunt in groups. Does that make them apex predators then.

>>3197875
>>Absolutely impossible to pinpoint
Whether or not it's impossible to pinpoint is irrelevant. So is that when it happened?

>>3197886
their weapons are shit and their tactics such dick
so "no"

>>3197889
yes, the moment humans learned to kill something much bigger and stronger than them despite their physical limitations, they became the top of the foodchain

>>3197866
>>3197875
>>3197889
A little hint, neither tool use, nor hunting tactics is what sets humans apart from other primates.
It's the use of fire, an external energy source, what makes human special.

>>3197900
>their weapons are shit and their tactics such dick
>so "no"
Are you dumb or just on visit from /pol/?
Chimpanzees fill every criteria for tool manufacturing and use, same goes for organized hunting parties. HEll Chimps even fight wars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War

>>3197903
>neither tool use, nor hunting tactics
>It's the use of fire
Why the arbitrary distinction? Why not just say it was our cognitive abilities? You cannot separate some uses of it from the others.

>>3197909
>Chimpanzees fill every criteria for tool manufacturing and use
call back when they can kill a mammoth, faggot

tool usage and group tactics aren't a checkmark in fucking tech tree

Homo Sapiens never had any true predators.
There was opportunistic predation by large predators sure but they were not part of the regular diet and any interactions were typical to rival apex predators.

Older hominids did have systematic predation, though the closer to homo sapiens the less often it happened.

>>3197923
>Why not just say it was our cognitive abilities?
Because many animals have cognitive abilities, up to even communication, tool manufacturing, tactic behavior in groups etc.
The only distinctive point is the use of fire, nothing else sets humans (especially early humans) apart from the rest of the animal kingdom.

>>3197935
>call back when they can kill a mammoth, faggot
killing a mammoth isn't a definition for tool manufacturing. Making tools and using them is the benchmark. And several animals are able to do that.

>>3197939
Well obviously when asking what sets humans apart the reply "cognitive abilities" means the level of cognitive abilities that humans had, not just their existence.

The reason we started using fire was our level of cognitive abilities. What else would explain why no other species has done it?

>>3197939
the complexity of all those elements was far more advanced in hominids though

and that's a valid distinction to make, it's common for animals to use similar tactics with varying effectiveness.

>>3197935
>faggot
>fucking
Ah, so it is /pol/ then.

>>3197961
>what sets humans apart the reply "cognitive abilities"
Problem is, early hominids weren't exactly that smart. truth to be told, besides the ability to walk on their hind legs, nothing at all sets them apart from their primate cousins in regard of "cognitive abilities".

>>3197962
>far more advanced in hominids
Not sure how you would want to prove that early hominids where more advanced than todays chimps.
Chimps and other primates have languages, cultures, they learn, they use weapons, they plan ahead, they got social norms, they act in groups etc. Nothing to distinguish here from hominids.

Only animal that actively uses fire is the human and its hominid ancestors.

>>3197975
>Not sure how you would want to prove that early hominids where more advanced than todays chimps.
depends how early
early enough that their cognitive capabilities were still barely above chimp level and sure they were only on the same level

but later on we have definitive proof in the vastly more advanced tools hominids used, even before the domestication of fire

Lets not forget that humans have among the best stamina in the world, they could stalk prey until they where to exhausted to run.

>>3197975
>Problem is, early hominids weren't exactly that smart. truth to be told, besides the ability to walk on their hind legs, nothing at all sets them apart from their primate cousins in regard of "cognitive abilities".
To be quite honest with you we're both making claims nobody could support and likely never will. There's just no way to determine that. The evidence is too lacking for either claim.

File: 255px-A.afarensis.jpg (27KB, 255x519px) Image search: [Google]

27KB, 255x519px

>>3197980
>but later on we have definitive proof in the vastly more advanced tools hominids used, even before the domestication of fire
Id' like to see those advanced tools then. Got a source? Afaik Homo Erectus is the first homo to use fire, and coincidently he is also the first homo to make complex tools.
Earlier homos, like Australopithecus where still very close to other primates and I don't really see advanced tool use or anything else that would distinguish them.

>>3198008
Depends on, brain volume of hominid species are well know, artefacts and tools are well know.
If you have one primate with 400ml brain volume and anoter primate with 450ml there is not much difference. Having an ape that suddenly uses fire and ups his calories by using it for heating and cooking then there is a difference.

>>3198026

Not him but how much would even brain volume matter? Whales have huge brains, and some birds which are very smart have small brains.

>>3198178
brain volume/body weight does matter a lot in animal kingdom.

>>3197939
Some Australian birds of prey have been observed intentionally spreading fire in order to flush game.
I flipped shit when I read that.

>>3198690
got a source on that?

>>3197999
Underrated trips

>>3198178
Encephalization Quotient broseph

humans werent always even bipedal

>>3199813
why is /his/ so obsessed with this positivistic standarization?

>>3197866
To me, humans have not always been apex predators. Defeating a big feline or even pack animals is something hard to master even for modern humans

>>3198786

Dreamtime stories confirm.

>>3199914
It's not very hard to grab a gun and pull the trigger. I imagine for the early hominids it wasn't very hard to sharpen a stick and throw it. Our tool use is what allowed us to rise to the top of the foodchain, more than the use of fire, if you ask me.