was he the greatest diplomat ever?

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>>3184707
"I hate krauts who disagree with me but I hate other countries even more."

t. Otto Von Bismarck

He was pretty good. His only fault was not securing his heritage enough so Willy 2 fucked it all up.

>>3185263
Kulturkampf as well

>>3184707
no, talleyrand was.

and while bismarck was a great statesman in many ways, he is also wildly overrated.

>>3185274
What was the problem there? Understandable to not want great influence of a theocrat in your country.

>>3185263
that was beyond his control desu. the big mistake was not incorporating austria into the empire.

>>3185283
It was a smart attempt by Bismarck, but it backfired as Catholics in the empire became more political than before.

>>3185289
How would they do that? The whole big/little Germany was a fight between under whose leadership would Germany be under.(Habsburgs/Prussia) No side would give up, and most likely another war would have happened between them

>>3185289
That and letting the Kaiser have so much and the Parliament so little power, that was alright when sane people were in charge (Wilhelm 1, Frederick 3) but turned out fatal with Willy 2.
>>3185294
Right, that's true.

>>3185305
it would have been pretty hard, but may have been possible in 1848-49 when the hungarians were going full REEEE and many austrians germans were eyeing germany. i was also going to say during 1866-67, but no way france would just sit back and watch that happen.

in terms of territory, it would have been basically austria, bohemia, and slovenia joining germany, the kingdom of hungary gaining independence fully intact(while under german patronage as they were terrified of the russians more than they hated the german), with the italian bits of the empire given up to italy, and galicia given up to russia to appease them.

>>3185313
Yeah man, if I recal 1/3 of the empire was catholic. The stupidity of Willy can arguably also be attributed to Bismarck, since he was a strong conservative/monarchist. More power to the parliament would have been a wise move. Wilhelm and the military high command were at fault over the decline of the empire. Wilhelm 2 was a retard on foreign policies unlike the iron chancellor

>>3185326
It would have been possible now that you mention the Hungarians and their rise on nationalism and looking for self-rule; however, as you said it is unlikely that France and GB would have allowed it, since it would shift the balance of power a lot, especially if prussians took military action, if they were somehow able to solve the matter diplomatically then maybe, but no side would give up the leadership

>>3185328
while a lot of the bad shit that unfurled during willy 2's reign can be a attributed to the fault structure that bismarck set up, i think equally as much blame can be placed squarely on the absolute terrible yes-men that willy 2 surrounded himself with. a guy like von bulow was like 1/20th the statesman that bismarck was, and he was just one of many idiots around the kaiser.

>>3185344
>no side would give up the leadership
i think this is really the key here. in 1848 there would maybe, maaaaybe a slight chance that france was too busy dealing with their own domestic upheavals and them not in it would have broken GB's nerve(unlikely as both those scenarios were), but the habsburgs' ability to wheel and deal is what would have really blocked things, combined with nobody willing to back down.

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Can I get some Kaiser Wilhelm II memes?

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>>3184707
I've never seen Metternich from that angle...

Book recommendations for Bismarck, Talleyrand, Richelieu et al political maneuvering?

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>>3184707
He was pretty good. His successor was objectively one of the worst diplomats in the history of everything, however.

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>>3184707
For the leader of a great power, yes.

Unironically however, with regards to natives against great powers, the Three Dikgosi of Botswana rival him. They literally saved their nations from apartheid as native chiefs, against the encroachment of the British Empire.

But of course, in great power diplomacy, it remains true Bismarck was the greatest diplomat of all time.

kissinger

>>3185686
He say greatest diplomat, not greatest scumbag

>>3184793
Where does this meme come from?

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>>3185403

>>3185283
The problem was that he wanted to erradicate non-German ethnicities in his empire. Like that ever works.

>>3186897
Reddit: the post

>>3186897
Hello new friend

>>3185263
>Deliberately set up an archaic central Government so useless ass Junkers wouldn't get marginalized
>Gave in to calls to annex Alsace Lorraine, guaranteeing a rivalry with France
>Sets up diplomatic ties that they can't easily be picked up by his successors
>Acts like he's hot shit
>Gets fired for being a senile fuck

This meme of Bismark being this amazing politician seriously needs to die, he set up the German Empire for failure.

>>3186833
Then why did he post a picture of Bismark?

>>3186906
Gonna need a source on that "eradicate" thing.
>>3187142
You know he wasn't the king of Prussia and dependent on his superiors, he couldn't just reform Germany the way he liked.

>>3186897
A M A Z I N G
I
N
D
E
E
D

>>3187191
Can't believe some nigga can be worshipped here by people who have such limited knowledge about him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_deportations

Also "Beat Poles until they lose faith in a sense of living. Personally, I pity the situation they're in. However, if we want to survive - we've got only one option - to exterminate them."
letter to his sister, 1861. Source can be find in the book "Bismarck And The German Empire"

Basically had something against catholics. About Poles it's obvious. Just like Friedrich II. Prussia was a young, made up concept and if it wanted to survive Poland couldn't achieve independence.

>>3187191
>Gonna need a source on that "eradicate" thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_deportations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation_of_Poles_during_the_Partitions

>>3184707
yes

>>3185313
Willy had very little power though, especially after his big public gaffes like the daily telegraph affair. He mostly defsulted to his ministers especially diplomatic and military establishment because they had by that time could bypass him altogether because they controled the state. Willy was all bluster no substance, in short, even if outsiders got triggered by his idiotic belligerence or politically incorrect statements (in the literal sense that his comments were political missteps)

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>>3190289
The Kaiser directly and solely commanded the Army, plus he was superior to the chancellor and ministers. In interior affairs, his power was somewhat limited, in foreign affairs, he had practically free reign.

>>3187212
>>3187891
Well that was a shitty move and undoubtetly cruel. But I consider "eradicating" a people more like "genociding" a people, which this wasn't, this was simply an expulsion (still cruel and inhumane).

I don't see why Prussia wouldn't be able to coexist with a Polish nation state, see 1919-1939, with the majority Polish regions simply ceded to Poland (weren't it for that Hitler guy lel).

>>3190463
Until the Herero physical elimination wasn't on anyone's agenda. I think.

>>3190436
Correct but it wasnt a static system I argue from my readings that Willy lost significant power in foreign affairs even by WWI. All the foreign ministry had to do was filter what information he read through their memos and hold meetings and negotiate stuff without consulting him. His public missteps made them more inclined to this as time went on

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>>3184707
>Who is he

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>>3185277
Talleyrand was one of the worst ever

>>3187142
Alsace Lorraine is historically German though.

>>3191528

t. kraut

>lost the ww2 immediately to Hitler
>no one in the whole world gave a shit
gg

>>3191760
t. Retard

>>3191760
Look it up.

>>3190778
Except for the retarded bong puppet (just give that to the dutch) there's nothing wrong with this plan.

>>3190778
How the fuck did the Belgian revolution even happen

>We speak Dutch
>We speak French
>Let's work together and secede from those other Dutch!

*200 years later*

We fucking despise eachother

>>3184707
>I shall amuse myself for a few years waving a sword at raw recruits, then take a wife, beget children, till the soil and undermine the morals of my peasantry by the inordinate distillation of spirits. So, if in 10 years’ time you should happen to find yourself in the neighbourhood, I invite you to commit adultery with an easy and curvaceous young woman selected from the estate, to drink as much potato brandy as you fancy and to break your neck out hunting as often as you see fit. You will find here a fleshy home-guard officer with a moustache that curses and swears till the earth trembles, cultivates a proper repugnance to Jews and Frenchmen, and thrashes his dogs and domestics with egregious brutality when bullied by his wife. I shall wear leather trousers, make a fool of myself at the Stettin wool market and when people address me as baron I shall stroke my moustache benignly and knock a bit off the price; I shall get pissed on the king’s birthday and cheer him vociferously and the rest of the time I shall sound off regularly and my every other word will be: ‘Gad what a splendid horse!’

>>3185277
Nah, that was Metternich. Talleyrand was smart but more of an opportunist than anything. Metternich's worldview practically defined the next 30-40 years of the European political climate.

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>>3184707
Imagine working your entire life to cobble together an incredibly unlikely coalition of petty feudal petty states into a new major empire with a combined might greater than any other, and maneuvering this brand new Frankenstein's monster into a rube goldberg system of alliances carefully balanced to not upset the delicate balance of power, and thus avoid the inevitable urge of the older establishment powers to destroy the threatening new upstart.

Then living to see it all destroyed by one retarded monarch.

>>3185642
For Bismarck, Palmer's biography maybe. From reviews, most of the rest seem to be written by Brits and are very, very heavily biased against him (as most British historians are against the Germans/Prussia in general).

>>3190463
If he's posting shit from Eyck don't take him seriously. Eyck was a lefty Jew who hated Bismarck/Prussia and was more or less a sonderweg type so he can be pretty safely dismissed.

>>3194942

Bismarck rushed the unification of Germany because he thinks he's the only one who can do it/his successors will fuck it up. In that he was right, but he built a Germany that was on rickety foundations. A strong state can survive a shitty leader, a hollow state can not. The German Empire as it was could not survive Willy II, because at it's core, the German empire was a state that ran on people instead of running on institutions.

>>3195177
Also you know, WWI happened and they had to pay a huge sum to the Allies and lost a ton of land.

>>3194942
>petty feudal petty states
they weren't, thats fucking propaganda to make the accomplishment look more grand than it was. a lot of these states were just fine without direct prussian rule and as it was the prussians simply absorbed them and didn't change their internal politics as the german empire got created.

>maneuvering this brand new Frankenstein's monster into a rube goldberg system of alliances
a purposefully convoluted machine that only the man could operate. anybody with a bit of sense would have realized that germany shouldn't step on too many toes, but Bismark did just that or, if his intentions were to keep a balance of power, he created a system that collapsed at his death. a great statesman would have created a LASTING system. All Bismark created was a LASTING CULT OF PERSONALITY

>>3195237

WWI wouldn't have happened if Germany didn't chimp out just because their Monarch had an inferiority complex. If Germany had a mature political system, the deficiencies of the monarch would be checked by competent professionals.

>>3195362
wwi was just as much started by the kaiser's subordinates than himself

*starts three wars*
damn....truly kept peace in europe

>>3191528
It was owned by France before Prussia even gained fully autonomy from Poland-Lithuania.

>>3185686
>>3190532
Good answer.