Just finished reading this. Impressive how a shitty destitute

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I'm reading it right now. I'm Brazilian and we were taught in school that Vasco da Gama and Cabral were pioneering heroes, but it turns out that they were just complete thugs bullying Indians and Africans into "friendship," alliances, and trade.

So this must be how Americans must feel about Columbus when they find out how bad he really was.

>>3184901
Columbus isn't really like some American folk hero, Italian-Americans tried for a while to paint him that way - even pushing for the Columbus day holiday.
Even in elementary school they tell you more or less the true story, and its not as much as a common misconception as it used to be.

Finns have a saying: Hell belongs to heroes.

>>3184901
It would've been nice for the Portuguese to have been less morally objectionable, but this is how conquest had to be done, and what they had to do to break into the spice trade. Albuquerque himself, possibly the most bloodthirsty of the men in charge, said that the people of the Indies only respected force. Otherwise, the moment they would turn their backs they'd get betrayed.

But the funny thing is that this fervor wasn't all just for the sake of Portugal, it was for the destruction of Islam. I feel the world would've become a very different place if Portugal was a bit more lucky during these times.

>>3184983
The more I hear about the Finns the more alien they seem.

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>>3184439
It's kinda interesting how one of the poorest Western European countries of that day conquered their way across Asia.

Kind neat and quite impressive when you look at the maritime aspect of it all.

Finns have a saying: benis belongs in bagina

>>3187262
I've hears that the phrase "I love you" more or less translates to "the one I hate the least"

>>3187299
Man ships of that period looked bizarre, what with the massive fore and aft castles. I always wondered how they stayed afloat when they were that top-heavy.

>>3187654
The planking and ribs grew thinner as they went up, they had ballast and a relatively low length to beam ratio.

>>3187841
What was the purpose? Was it just a transitionary kind of design from the fighting castles on Medieval ships?

>>3187893
Boarding would remain the main way of taking out ships well into the 16th century. The ship with the higher freeboard and castles generally had the advantage.

>>3184439
I just started reading it and a lot of it isnt sourced very well.

Can't find anything on the gigantic Dhows he's talking about.

>>3184439

Portugal had many great people, soldiers and intelectuals after and before the era the book covers

>>3184439
Da Gama was an absolute madman
Very cheeky

>>3187299
>conquered their way across Asia.
>Just sat on the shorelines of some areas where civilization existed while conquering island peoples.

>>3189174
>Da Gama

Just Gama. Da/de/do basically means "of" in portuguese.

>>3189185
Close enough.

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>>3189185
Portugal's plan was to create their own Mare Clausum. By taking over the coastal regions around their area of influence they could prevent people from trading or navegating in "their" ocean without permission.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_clausum#Mare_clausum_in_the_Age_of_discovery

>>3190010
Well that wasn't achieved in Asia considering the Dutch booted them out of places there, Spain dominated the Philippines, and Portugal's presence in Macau is mandated in China.

Goa seems to be the only success story.

>>3184901
Columbus was worse, burned women and children at green wood stakes (it takes longer) and made the fathers and husbands watch, until they told them where "all the gold mines" were. Then he jacked off to the bible while he confessed his sins. Fucking Catholics.

>>3190048
They had other places along the african coast, the Arabian peninsula, India and Indonesia.
If you want a full list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_Portuguese_Empire#Present-day_countries_with_territories_once_part_of_the_Portuguese_Empire

The dutch only came a century or so later and they were in good terms with the Spanish in the Philippines who also profited from the spice trade.

>>3190048

The Dutch empire in Asia was basically the (stolen) Portuguese empire, to be fair.

>>3184439
Crowley's probably my favorite pop historian. The only one of his books I haven't read yet is 1453 but that, Empires of the Sea and City of Fortune are fantastic. He knows how to tell a story; made me want to see a good movie about the Great Siege of Malta.

>>3190048
It was indeed achieved, but only for a century. And after the Dutch came in, the Portuguese came back and recaptured most of their territories.

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>>3190100
Relevant map

>>3192100
Fucking sea jews

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Anyone have any books/information about Portuguese in the Persian Gulf?

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>>3184439
>Impressive how a shitty destitute country managed to become a considerable power in a single generation just through the ambition of a few clever men
t. every goddamn empire ever

>>3184439
>tfw we could thwarted Alberto Barbossa's ambition if we don't relied on shitty foreign mercenary who betrayed us for moortugal gold.

>Always wanted to read a book about Albuquerque, the man unmentioned by history
>Suddenly my favorite historian have written a book about him
I cried manly tears in that bookstore.

>>3189198
We know, but he's conventionally called "Da Gama" in English, unlike some other Iberians. Miguel de Cervantes, for example, is just "Cervantes."
It's very idiosyncratic, and you just have to know what the convention is for that person.

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>>3190265
I liked 1453 a lot, better than City of fortune and probably even better than Empires of the Sea. It's a more focused story than either, and, while I love Venice, I think its political and economic history is more interesting than the military stuff. Thomas Madden's Venice: A New History is my favorite pop history of Venice.

>>3193046
Not at this scale, dumbass.

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>>3184439

Vasco Da Gamas letters are a joy to read.

The guy just didn't give a fuck on his second voyage.

But even then he apparently still took in some Muslim orphans (who he made into orphans beforehand).

>>3193037
Bump

>>3194066
Why is a diminutive midget Spain hovering over an enthroned, larger Portugal? What did he mean by this?

>>3195245
There was a period of time where Portugal and Spain had the same King

>>3194066
Does he specify what kind of weapons and armor they used?

The book has a bunch of shit on how they started using pikes but I'm curious what they had before those.

>>3197193
The book mentions how at first they employed typical Medieval tactics. Noblemen on some cuirasses with two-hander swords, crossbows and very few muskets.

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>>3197193

Vasco never specifically mentions full equipment.

But Crowley wrote in some passages that the large swords (not sure if he called them Two Handers or not) they used were a hindrance in the small nooks and cranies of the cities they attacked.

Can't re-call if he mentioned the crab sword and the parry dagger combination.

What was mentioned is as >>3197445 said.

Crossbows, Muskets, Metal Cuirasses, but Legs were unarmoured.

>>3195188
>>3193037
The book in the OP has a bit about it, but mostly regarding Ormuz.

>>3197445
Yeah I read that too but there are literally no footnotes in the book so I couldn't check it. The two handers aren't expanded upon either so it's hard to tell whether they are talking about actual greatswords or simple longsword.

The amor isn't mentioned in detail either so I found it hard to determine whether they were still wearing sallets or some newer helmets.

>>3197470
Does he mention bits and pieces of his equipment?

>Portuboos
Literally why?

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>>3197193
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carracks_black_sword

>>3197592
I like a good underdog, rags to riches story.

Quite an impressive achievement. I believe their discoveries and trade contributed a lot to the venetian downfall.
You can just imagine their REEEEEEEEEs when they heard the portuguese discovered a maritime way to india, which would end the trading of spices across land in large scale, which they dominated

>>3197639
A sword with the blade painted black
also
"It was also known by Portuguese soldiers as colhona (which in rude Portuguese means approximately “big balls”) due to the roundshape of the terminal plates, reminiscent of a representation of the testicles in a phallic symbol in the form of sword."

That's fucking badass

>>3184901
you're still taught in (((school))) that the Europeans were the good guys?

wtf I love Brazil now

>>3197973
I'm European and we're not even taught that.

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>>3197574

Nothing that I can re-call.

Sorry, mate.

I myself as I was reading the book tried to look up the equipment, depictions of the Explorers but couldn't find anything

>>3197973
Which is especially odd considering that Brazil spawned the man who singlehandedly destroyed modern education, Paulo Freire.

>>3198094
there is nothing wrong with his methods on a elementary-level education
people just took it too far

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>>3197670

Crowley mentions that the Venetians actively collaborated with the Muslims to stop the Portuguese from gaining the monopoly on maritime trade.

If I re-call correctly they supplied the Muslims with canons, engineers and spy reports.

>>3198349
Weren't the Venetians and Ottomans enemies?

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>>3198383

What are sworn enemies when it comes to the smell of shekels?

>>3193037
these look relevant
Matthee, Rudi, and Jorge Flores. Portugal, the Persian Gulf and Safavid Persia. Papers presented at a conference in marking the quincentennial anniversary of the arrival of the Portuguese in the Persian Gulf in 1507, Paris, 2008. Leuven, Belgium: Peeters, 2011.
>A selection of papers from a conference in 2007 marking the quincentennial anniversary of the arrival of the Portuguese in the Persian Gulf in 1507. The table of contents is available online.
Matthee, Rudi. “Distant Allies: Diplomatic Contacts between Portugal and Iran in the Reign of Shah Tahmasp, 1524–1576.” In Portugal, the Persian Gulf and Safavid Persia. Edited by Rudi Matthee and Jorge Flores, 219–247. Leuven, Belgium: Peeters, 2011.
>Notes the limited nature of Safavid interest in the Persian Gulf and its trade during this period and suggests that the Portuguese also had limited goals in the Gulf, mainly an anti-Ottoman alliance in the aftermath of the Ottoman capture of Constantinople in 1453.

>>3198486
dis too maybe
Matthee, Rudi. “The Politics of Protection: Iberian Missionaries in Safavid Iran under Shah ʿAbbas I (1587–1629).” In Contacts and Controversies between Muslims, Jews and Christians in the Ottoman Empire and Pre-Modern Iran. Edited by Camilla Adang and Sabine Schmidtke, 245–271. Würzburg, Germany: Ergon Verlag, 2010.
>Notes that the missionaries “served as political intermediaries with the outside world . . . and their presence and activities created serious tensions among various religious groups with ties to the royal court—most notably the Shi`i clerics and the members of the Armenian community” (p. 245). There was also bitter conflict between the various missionary groups, often reflective of clashing agendas of the different European powers with which each was identified.

>>3198456
lmao who made this video?

>>3198383
They collaborated mostly with the Mamluks. But there were also many Venetian traders travelling in Portuguese ships.

All Portugal did in the Indian ocean was sink their competitors. The Dutch actually managed the large scale trade needed and regulated trading licenses.

>>3198519

It's some kind of series, this scene is apparently just to get plot rolling about someone smuggling gas-canisters or something like that.

>>3184439
Why didn't the portuguese ever seriously settle South Africa? I suppose it has to do with their interest in trade and extractive industries? after all, most of colonial brazilian history centers on the tropical northeast of the country because that's where the sugar was grown, only in the 19th century did it shift toward the arid and habitable areas of rio grande do sul which, i i'm not mistaken, has a climate much like nice parts of south africa

>>3184439
Portugal in face of their size, is one of the most glorious european countries that ever existed.

>>3197973
Ha, no. Not at all. What I learned in school was that the Portuguese were pretty nice to the Natives, either ignoring them or trying to befriend them, whereas Spanish and English were genociding them. And that the Portuguese settlers in Brazil were treated just a teensy bit better than African slaves by the European elite.

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>>3198741
I believe it was because there was never anything to trade or exploit in the area so it wouldn't be a very profitable place to colonize. Portugal had a very small amount of manpower and it was already busy with Brazil + Africa/India. However it was loosely under portuguese control for sometime to the point where they even erected a Padrão in the region

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padr%C3%A3o

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>A musket shot caught Abreu in the face, smashing his teeth and carrying away part of his tongue, but when Albuquerque ordered the injured man to be replaced, Abreu refused point-blank, declaring “as long as he had feet to walk, hands to fight, some tongue left to give commands, that whatever life left that he had he wouldn’t give up his post to anyone.”

>Albuquerque was hit in the left arm by an arrow that lodged in the bone; a few minutes later he was hit again, in the neck by a dart that penetrated his throat guard. Then a bullet caught him in the chest. He called out for the protection of Our Lady of Guadalupe as he collapsed to the ground.

>Manuel de Lacerda, was pierced just below the eye by a barbed arrow, which embedded itself too deeply to be removed. He snapped off the shaft and fought on with the ghastly stump protruding from his bloody face.

>>3198936
interesting

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>>3198939

Didn't they all survive this one as well?

What were these people made off?

>>3190048

>This buthurt

Malaca, Ormuz, Ceylon, Nagasaki, Goa, Macau, Bengal, Moçambique...

>>3187356
Sounds like fucking klingon

>>3198563
This. They tried to take control over the trade routes by simply conquering the commercial hubs, but then traders just changed routes and left the Portuguese-controlled towns useless.

The Dutch at least pioneered a new trade route, direct to Java, which is how they managed to out-compete everyone else.

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>>3199034
One typical example of Portuguese conquest, in East Africa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirazi_era

>The "Shirazi era" refers to a period in the history of Southeast Africa (and especially Tanzania), between the 13th century and 15th century, when Persian city-states were founded on the eastern coast of Africa as well as on its islands. These Persian settlers were mostly from the Shiraz region, and the present day Shirazi people claim to descend from these settlers, though this tradition is disputed.

>The Shirazi Era came to an abrupt end with the advent of the Portuguese at the end of the 15th century. The Portuguese first raided and then conquered the Shirazi/Swahili cities, with the aim of controlling the trading routes in the Indian Ocean. In fact, they did not achieve their aim, as the fall of the Shirazi city-states actually caused trading between Africa and Asia to collapse and eventually extinguish.

>>3193037

Fernão Mendes Pinto - peregrinação (pilgrimage)

A first hand account of China and Vietname and siam, the discovery of Japan by europeans, the saint Francisco Xavier, the activities and modus operandi of the portuguese...

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>>3198936
Bartolomeu Dias, cape of the good hope

>>3199025
They did.

I read quite a lot about wounds people sustained in this era and the medical treatment available. From what I gather arrow wounds to the limbs and face had a very high survival rate and it wasn't uncommon for soldiers to survive multiple throughout their career.

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>>3199059

>>3194066
Gonna save this because it's autistic af

Does it come from /pol/, btw?

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>>3184901
In the state of Texas the earliest English speaking figure that comes up on subject matter of the New world is Sir Francis Drake who was a pirate. He killed Spanish sailors with fire ships in order steal their cargoes of gold and sliver. He was a true pioneering hero for he should that new world ventures could be profitable to the English crown. A great many pirates followed in his foot steps, clearing the way for English settlement in the New World.

The textbooks do not cover the great many other things that Sir Francis Drake did in Europe like modernizing the English army.

>>3184439
so i've collected all the english works on portugal and the portuguese empire i can find in a single pastebin which i'll make some charts out of eventually
https://pastebin.com/0kiyJ2U5

the links in the beginning are to bibliographies i haven't formatted yet because they contain a shit ton more books.

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>>3199535
Thanks anon, that's pretty good

>>3192100
>Portuguese Discoveries.
>Continental Asia.
Ok.

It wasn't as if other Europeans visited there before Portucucks did. A certain Venetian explorer comes to mind.

In addition to being inhabitted by vast record-keeping civilizations, whose writings were already reaching westward by that point.

>>3199600
The rule is, it only counts if it's done by white people

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>>3199535
made a first chart

>>3199558
np

>>3187299
>one of the poorest Western European countries of that day
It still is

>>3199983
It fact it wasn´t and even today call Portugal a poor country is somehow like delusional, since their are in the top 30 world wide rich/quality of life/well being. Only if you compare that "poverty" with Norway or Germany.

>>3200020
They are the poorest of western europe just like I quoted. Of course they aren't poor relative the to the rest of the world, they're europeans ffs.

>>3184439
Un estilo muy libre.

>>3199890

So Portuguese are White but Venetians somehow aren't?

Are you some special kind of retarded, you little racist shitheap?

>>3184439
Sounds like an investment pump and dump scheme desu. Eg a bunch of Venetian and Genoese bankers invest in Portugese shipping companies, pull all their capital after they've made enough profit and crash the economy, buy up more Portugese assets at bargain prices. Is this what happened?

>>3199226
Privateer not pirate

>>3199600

Marco Polo found jack shit, he used a know route, while the portuguese made maps of the lands they found, in many places it was hard due to ship wreackage, the portuguese didn't lie like his book he wanted to sell, AND THE PORTUGUESE MANAGED to bring back embassators while Colombo cuck didn't, stay mad

>>3199972
Saved

Roberto.

>>3190265
Crowely sure has a way with words. Some of his descriptions just make me feel like i'm right in there, feeling the sea breeze and smeel of rotting wood.

Rawbert

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>>3202141

Reading his book I always imagined a movie adaption with this as the trailer music.

A ship during a thunderstorm breaking through the waves, the camera slowly paning alongside it, showing crew from a bird-eye view a lightning bolt illuminating from time to time, a final lighting bolt illuminating the blood red cross as the camera towards the sail.

The Instrumentals hitting as the cross is seen.

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>>3202141
>>3203650

Forgot the clip of course

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_2fyB4dj4U

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How did Portugal advance so much in navegation?
Where did their boats and cartography skills come from?

>>3200040
I prefer living poor in Portugal than living rich on Norway

>>3203730
Moor sails that they left, they could sail againts wing

>>3203730
Italians, Jews and Muslims had a bunch of instruments for the purpose and they could make maps. Since knowledge flowed more or less freely all the Portuguese king had to do was to ask them to come over for a purse of gold. From there on natives could learn it.

As for the ships, those were just slowly developed in the region and fine tuned in the 80 years they spent sailing down the African coast. This is also where the pilots got their experience navigating and sailing. Baby steps at first sailing slowly down the coast until they had a large body of people capable of getting ships to India.

The Carracks were a product of fusion of shipbuilding styles of the Atlantic, Baltic and Mediterranean.

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>>3203748
Really? That sounds pretty memey

>>3201668
i realize i made a lot of errors and left a couple works out so stay put to save a second version

>>3203822
He's memeing mostly.

The Lateen sail predates Islam but windward sailing ability also has to do with hull shapes. It's possible some models were adopted.

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>>3203730

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escola_de_Sagres

>>3197973
We lie and pretend the Portuguese never did a single bad thing and we also lie and pretend the Brits and Spaniards were literally proto Hitlers who single handedly destroyed American natives just because.
It is a bit odd.

>>3199226
God bless Drake "the Dragon" terror of the Spanish. The greatest privateer in history.

>>3203821
>>3204062
Thanks anons

>>3197592
>not being interested in different countries and cultures

>>3203825
bump gonna post updated version tomorrow

>>3187299
How was it the poorest? Is there a way to proof this?

>>3207479
Well there is some modern research on the subject comparing economies and wages expressed in grain/silver but primary sources also talk about it.

>>3200449
no. quite the opposite, in fact.

>>3200384
>canal jews
>white

>>3184983
>>3187308
Wow, really made me think

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What the actual fuck...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_League_of_the_Indies

>>3208648
I guess they had really good boats

>>3204919

Np, you also might want to learn this to understand more of Henry the Navigator

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illustrious_Generation

Bônus, the poem that isnt translated

>He did not consent to death for so many years
>That from such high hero it would be deprived
>Portugal, instead the sovereign choirs of the supreme heaven wanted him to settle.
>For the defense of the Lusitans
>He left Who took then, who ruled and increased the land more than before:
>>Illustrous generation, high Infantes.

It's not the same tough the original in portuguese is a adaptation of the Eneida by Virgílio

>>3209378

Never mind it is translated, i just didn't see cause phone posting, it doesnt even rhyme in english

>>3205797
working on it now. hopefully done in a few hours ;_;

>>3213381

Bump, keep going at it then

>>3208648
How did they do it?

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>>3190048
>"King of Portugal and the Algarves, within and beyond the sea in Africa, Lord of Commerce, Conquest and Shipping of Arabia, Persia and India"

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>>3198614
Motherfucker, please tell me the series so I can watch it. Is it this based all the time?

>>3198456
What the fug

>>3214446

I alredy said, read Fernão Mendes Pinto book, pilgrimage to see the sacrifices they were demanded

>Using their own teeth as bullets
http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/history.htm (((relevant)))
>Admirals that went with their sons to see them die in service
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_de_Almeida
>Many notable people dying abroad
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristóvão_da_Gama
>Having to rebuild breaches in the walls every single day

Even the royal family had to pay a blood tribute

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_the_Holy_Prince

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>>3213624
>>3205797
>>3213381
fresh pasta

>>3198456

Deus Vult, based German policebro

>>3215078
Fucking based, thank you.

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>>3215078

>>3215143
glad you like, enjoy. here's a remake of the first chart i posted here. like 5 or so more works added and i organized the categories a little better

>>3215078
These things are a godsend. Thanks

>>3215059

Btw, capitain Silveira answer to pasha is censored or underquoted in the arscives

>Most honored captain Pasha, I have carefully read your words, and that of the captain which you have imprisoned through lie and betrayal of your word, signed under your name; which you have done because you are no man, for you have no balls, you are like a lying woman and a fool. How do you intend to pact with me, if you committed betrayal and falsity right before my eyes? For I take you in no account, for you are a traitor like a Jew. When I saw your armada, I feared you could do me harm; but now I am assured, for like a Jew you lie, so did those who took Rhodes and Belgrade. If in the Island of Rhodes were the knights that are in this pig-sty you could be assured that you would have not conquered it. You are to learn that here are Portuguese, used to killing many Moors and are commanded by António da Silveira that has a pair of balls stronger than the balls of your canons and that all the Portuguese here have balls and do not fear those who don’t have them no honor and lies like a Jew. The pen before you has such cattle that already you are scared and arranging a pact to betray; such pact, should I accept it, these knights would throw me at sea, and defend it themselves.

>>3199600
Is this a joke? Marco Polo is like half real.

>>3215152
>>3215078

This is awesome, now i just need the money to buy them all ;_;

>>3215194
try libgen.io
you can find a fair number for free on there, though I can't guarantee anything cause the last time i recommended it anons couldn't find as many works as they would have liked.

>>3215222

Nice, thanks
Added to favourites

>>3215152
Which one of those has something on the ships, artillery and weapons?

>>3215271
you mean you want a primary source that describes it, or are you fine with a secondary source?

>>3215281
Both would be nice.

>>3202141
It gives me a very romantic feeling for sailing (or being ferried or whatever) across the sea. Same sort of feeling I got when I first played Assassin's Creed IV.

>>3215306
well, a lot of the books posted will have a thing or two on those subjects, because the early empire was built on boats and cannons forcibly seizing cities and sinking trading ships so as to monopolize trade routes stretching from africa to asia. but i'll try to point you to some i think would be most helpful
in >>3215078
in general works- the books by boxer, diffie and newitt/
medieval portugal- cook, parts of susan rose, possibly some essays in upton-ward and essays in winius
medieval european exploration- russel, scammell, diffee (in unannotated part), goodman,

age of exploration- russell on henry the navigator, roger smith's vanguard of empire, subrahmanyam on vasco da gama (who used ships and artillery liberally)

culture of exploration- lots of books here on maritime technology used for exploration

as for >>3215152
any book mentionining voyages, shipwrecks, conquest of asia will involve ships and probably cannons

>>3198741
>toward the arid and habitable areas of rio grande do sul which,
what, Rio grande do sul is not arid and never was the biggest focus of our immigrants, you probably meant São Paulo, which was driven by coffee plantations.

>>3215378
Thanks

>>3215399
yeah i think i meant that... i'm thinking of where all the european migrants in brazil went in the 19th century and I thought that was southern brazil. but sao paolo is not as far south as rio grande. did anyone go to the sertao or was that mostly for raising cattle for dry beef to feed slaves?

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>>3215152
>>3215078
another chart :^)

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>>3215795
and another

>>3184901
Went to US High School in 2002-2006, we're basically taught Columbus was the anti-christ

>>3215856
How long does it take you to make these?

>>3215878
several days on a single topic (like right now i'm focusing on portuguese history). but i'm on break so i don't mind making them

>>3215872

In high school maybe, but don't tell me you never had to do those stupid 1st-5th grade elemtary school columbus skits and pilgrims and indians and turkeys and shit.

>>3199049
Fucking eternal luso

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>>3203730
Possibly the Knights Templar. The military order was not persecuted in Portugal, all the property was reconstituted into the Order of Christ. It's funny how people love to speculate about Templars in Scotland when there is a concrete and direct link with Portugal, to the point where all depictions of Portuguese ships bear the rebranded Templar cross.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Christ_(Portugal)

>>3218914

Now it is the greatest medal a portuguese can receive for it's service to the nation, it was vital to the reconquista, but later it was used as means to mobilize soldiers and sailors

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>>3184439
I find Portuguese history fascinating, really a crazy moment in history. Though they are the biggest
>relevant
case I've ever seen.

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>The most successfully expositions and colonies of Portugal were made under King Edward and Prince Henry
>English linage

Really makes you think

>>3219905
Everyone intermarried back then to solidify diplomatic relations between countries

>>3219905

The best monarchs were actually D. João II, "perfect prince" who was said to have inspired the prince from Maquiavel and his successor, D. Manuel, the "lucky one", who reached Índia and had on is disposal due to the build up of his uncle, Vasco da Gama, Pedro Álvares Cabral, Afonso Albuquerque...
The golden generation was a high generation of entrepaneurs, but even Henry had it's failure in conquering land in África, turning therefore to exploration, and king Duarte is said to have died of depression because of his brother that became a martyr

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>>3198075
holy shit i always thought the portuguese just lost that colonial war outright
that's badass

PAGE 7 MY FUCKING ASS

PAGE 5 MY FUCKING ASS

>>3198075

>Few Hundred troops

100.000 and increasing every year and at least 1 million that went trough that war, we only lost due to internal betrayal

>>3223662
Unlike in Spain, most Jews were converted or exiled, not killed outright.

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>>3223801
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon_massacre

>>3224185
HOLY SHIT, I NEVER KNEW OF THIS LEL

>>3224185

To wich D.Manuel replied with the execution of the instigators, and the forced convertion of the jews or else they would face deportation, so that it wouldnt happen again
But thanks to the status of cristão novo and cristão velho (new cristhian and old christian) the portuguese were able to tell them apart well into the republican era in 1910, whereas the distintion was banned by Marques de Pombal (probably a jew since he took many measures against anti semitism) in the late state of the xviii century

While some converted, many went to Índia and other colonies, mostly Brasil

>>3220707
They technically and tactically won.
But the regime fell and the new regime was anti-colonialist. So they gave it up for free, for no real reason.

>>3225187

A redpill on portuguese history

Mário Soares was bought by the cia, and since he got to be prime minister he made the descolonization, now we have him almost with hero status, because "muh.democracy, muh peace"
But the ruinous deals are explained by this:

>Portugal was buying left overs from the yum kippur war from Israel, being bros, to use in the war, we were under arms embargo due to illegal use if NATO equipement
>After the coup, we were in eminent state of civil war, and those weapons, newly arrived, disapered
>Since we did not undergo a civil war, those weapons got sold in the black market, giving it money to diversify and bring arms from olie north scheme, drugs, human traffic..
>Remember Soares? At some point in the 80, his son got in a plain accidente, they found ivory in his suitcases, he was dealing ivory for his daddy to fund the party (private propriety mind you) in a deal with the former guerrilla groups, since the cia wasn't intrested anymore
>There are even interviews were he said "trow the portuguese settlers to the sharks", "shoot them if necessary"..

Im on the phone, but i think you can provide the link and Google translates it now

http://www.direitapolitica.com/alguns-dos-crimes-de-mario-soares-traicao-instigacao-ao-genocidio-corrupcao-roubo-trafico-enriquecimento-ilicito/

>>3225730
Vou ler isto. Não fazia ideia que esse conas era corrupto até aos ossos.

>>3225924

Andas a papar o sono só pode

>>3225730
I have a fond dislike for that asshole but come the fuck on man
- laughable right wing blog that reads as the ramblings of a retiree on a news website comment section
- "O Diabo" and "A Rua" presented as source, that's as crazy as using "Avante" as a source.
- Spiegle quote shown with no context
- unsourced claims
- unreadable sources
- sourcing claims from defunct/foreign newspapers with no picture/link.

You don't need to grasp at straws to hate him, go after his know corruption cases while he was president and his equally detestable son (when he was running Lisbon)

>>3228045

Interviews were he advocates the genocide of his own people and the ivory/diamonds found in is son plain, and the cia briberies were all fake?

I dont think so, and i refuse to play the left game were everything is subjective

OH SHIT BUMP

>>3228337
>he advocates the genocide of his own people
He really didn't, if you read the spiegel interview he says that the army will work in the transitional period to maintain order, and while it may be expected some racial motivated conflicts (particularly in angola and mozambique) he believes that the army will be able to uphold peace by all means necessary.
As a followup question, the spiegel asks if the army would be willing to shoot white portuguese colonists, and he responded that the army cannot falter and if white colonists are making trouble then they will eat lead.
The quote that keeps being used was not said by him, but by spiegel (unless I'm reading the horribly google translated article wrong).

Keep in mind, this crap is happening during the decolonization where Portugal is trying to make peace with the new governments, keep good relations and assure the safety of remaining portuguese that may want to return. Imagine that he said "we'll be in charge of security but if white colonists are revolting we won't do nothing about it".

>>3186632
Islam? It was for spice money. Cutting the middlemen in the spice trade wouldn't so much weaken muslims as it would Italians. The only guy that seriously pursued holy war after the onset of the Age of Discovery was Sebastian the guy that went missing in action.

Conquering Ceuta was the last victory against Islam, by the Portuguese. Islam wasn't really a world power after that, as much as turks would like to believe otherwise.

After that the Portuguese spent more time struggling for independence from Spain, being mugged by their oldest allies the Brittish, and forcefully converting pagans.

>>3224624
>probably a jew since he took many measures against anti semitism
Senpai... Pombal was heavily influenced by the enlightenment, and enlightenment absolutism was all about asserting state power over church power and removing any kind of distinctions and other "superstitious" barriers that reformers thought were detrimental to commerce and the general welfare of the people. You didn't need to be a Jewish heritage to implement this stuff, though if you provide evidence i wouldn't be surprised because a lot of people had converso ancestry

>>3229781

Fair enough, i heard a story were it's said he forced anti semitic nobles to marry to jews, but i dont know if it's true, he was a mason tough, and since then they have existed.. i would rank im a 7/10 as a minister

>>3229612

You never shoot your people, the army wanst made for that, specially to make deals with turras terrorists funded by Kennedy's and Kissinger cia and soviet union. Even suggesting such things should have him sacked
When Brasil became independant, they paid, heavy and in gold, that is the only deal acceptable so the retornados would have something, they were treated as subhumans...

>>3230316
Retornados were treated poorly by the general populace. You can argue that the state didn't do enough to protect these refugees but it's not like the world ended to them. Retornados as a group were more formally educated than the native Portuguese and assimilated nearly seamlessly into the urban population, mostly Lisbon and that general metropolitan area.

There's no way the whites could keep on living there because the colonial war caused such resentment within the black communities. If the empire had peacefully transitioned into a Commonwealth, not only could long, expensive bloodshed have been prevented, Portugal would be more developed:

Salazar and his regime were rather alergic to industry. It was a wealth extraction system with little in the way of manufacture and R&D. Portugal was bleeding out workers to actually developed nations that had transitioned to economic models that focused on the secondary and tertiary sectors, and enjoyed more labour rights and higher standards of living.

>>3230638

Portugal was industrializing in the 60's and in the 70 it was increasing, without debt, and faster in the middle of war, plus while we were always a country of imigrants and colonizers, the exodus of the 50's onward had 2 reasons, the results and devastation of ww1 and the welfare "Marshall plan", like all things the blacks could have united against us, but without us they would have just kept fighting since xvi century until today, as we saw after the war, if they were unhappy they could just leave the land by conquered, developed and protected palestine style

The retornados we treated like shit because the gov's put us against them, specially Soares, for polítical reasons, and they going to do the same with this new generation of luso-venezuelanos

>>3187356
Untrue. The verb "rakastaa" means to love, but the etymology seems to just suggest something like "to let close", or "to let the right one close".

Finns are very subdued about showing their emotions in public situations or to strangers (or even to acquintances), but I believe we feel them the same. As a finn, I see so much that a foreigner could never discern in our unspoken culture; to declare the finnish as alien or distant or simply a crass misconception.

>The retornados we treated like shit because the gov's put us against them, specially Soares
That's some grade A revisionism you got there brosef. The relationship between those of the colonies and the "metrópole" were sour way before the decolonization process started.

First, the capital imposed a lot of bullshit commercial limitations as they were under a "colonial exclusive" aka colonies were to send goods to the capital for it to profit and obliged to import goods from the capital. What that mean was that a pure breed portuguese colonist in angola had to import wine from portugal at an incredibly higher price because the state prohibited him from producing it locally. This created the general sentiment that the colonies were being sucked dry by the capital and the colonists taken advantage of.

On the other hand, the social stratification differences between the colonies and the capital were immense, while you would find a semi-normal society in the bigger cities, most of the portuguese country was filled with semi-feudal hellholes. Kids as younger as 6, would work for the owner of the land picking fruit and getting paid with a lunch of bread and olives.
While in the colonies, you had a different dynamic that put the portuguese (white or not) above "the locals", this lead to a more breathable lifestyle for most colonists.
The recurring meme of the time was that those from the capital were perceived as poor depressed ignoramus and on the other hand, the colonists as obnoxious snobs that "in <insert colony here>, everything is so much better".

Bump BOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

>>3230638
>Salazar and his regime were rather alergic to industry.
I don't know much about portuguese history but I've been reading into this guy a bit and it seems like he had a real hardline conservative. The guy really abhorred external or internal forces changing the way of life in portugal. I believe he was doing it in his best intentions but it completely kept the country back economically. Add that to the blunder in the colonies and it was a recipe for disaster

>>3186632
>it was for the destruction of Islam.

lol - it was completely for trading rights, gold ad prestige. It was about finding ways around the middle eastern dominated trade not about 'destroying' Islam - it's wonderous how delusioned bigots are in their interpretation of events.

>>3232736

He made roads, ports, bridges, he raised literacy, only out of spite and malicious intentions (commie propaganda) you can say that he didn't developed Portugal, sure we didn't have the best living standards, but that was because he refused to spend more than he earned and because he was clearing a debt, and rebuilding a agriculture with no machines, a banking sector wich had hit rock bottom in the first repúblic, and a services sector that was made as job for the boys as we say now...

Even our patrimony such as our casttles were falling apart of under maintenance, he recovered them

>>3233234
>he raised literacy
A laughable achievement by any sort of european standard (by 1970 we had 63%, spain had 91%), it was only in the 60s that any real effort was put into education and that was mainly due to the middle school reform with the introduction of the industrial and commercial technical school. Furthermore higher education was still a far prospect for the common bloke, it was only after salazar died that new universities (that decentralized higher education from coimbra, lisbon and porto) were created.

>we didn't have the best living standards, but that was because he refused to spend more than he earned
Fuck that, we were poor because he had a closed economy with very little integration with our neighbors and a fucked up private sector ruled by a few banking/old nobility families. It was only in the 60s, when we opened up to our neighbors, joined EFTA and reformed the "colonial exclusive" rule we had with the colonies, that we saw any significant economic growth.

>and rebuilding a agriculture with no machines
And in the 50-60s how fucking stupid is that?

Dude, there is no doubt that Salazar deserves all the kudos for being able to manage a country during an era of european turmoil but don't let that cloud the horrible decisions he made that sent out country to the footnotes of the 20th century.

>>3231203

All of that is better than comunist feudalism with a twist of civil wars

Plus, while it is true we had some over proccionism, it's better than what we have now, selling goods to Spain to see them return with a differant package and higher price

>>3233434
Shit arent free, and it isnt the state that should buy machines, it's the producers and their companies

He raised literacy, way better than the first repúblic wich had only let a ruined school sistem, most people were in agriculture, they couldnt afford to have their sons at school, he didn't (quite fairly i say) take respinsability if the kids went to school, it is the parents who have that responsability, if he hadnt it would he more laughble, now see the clauster fuck it was descentralizing universities, they created the millenials, entitled brats, fuck them

I do agree he was old fashioned, but we should have built our future with what he gave us. Not destroy and make anew

>>3233493
>All of that is better than comunist feudalism with a twist of civil wars
you're moving goalposts

>>3233512
>Shit arent free, and it isnt the state that should buy machines, it's the producers and their companies
The small landowners in the north were poor (and no bank would lend them money) so they couldn't buy machinery and the more wealthy south landowners had access to VERY cheap labor. The crappy wages and low standards of living promoted this.
The cherry on top was the Estado Novo propaganda campaign exalting the virtues of the farmer that toiled the land with its hand tools as the virtuous one and the continuation of traditional ways of life
But that's beyond the point, the state had a very strong agricultural reform going on (Campanha do Trigo later renamed Campanha de Produção Agrícola) that "incentivized" certain regions to produce a certain crop. This is also the same agricultural reform that "incentivized" the removal of crop rotation and fallow practices that turned a lot of areas into barren wastes.

>He raised literacy, way better than the first repúblic wich had only let a ruined school sistem
It was the first republic that made primary school mandatory, and don't forget that they also had a pretty significant reform to modernize education with a more secular and science focused curriculum but it was curbstomped with the 1926 coup.
The first republic failed to bring the education levels to european standards because of financial problems (we lost a ton of money with WW1 and the inflation disaster the came after it), not because of failed education reforms.

>but we should have built our future with what he gave us. Not destroy and make anew
We did, in his last years he open up the country to international trade and liberalized the industry, and that's exactly what we continued to do (to a fault imo)

Portugal seems to be the only great power who really didn't have a great monarch, at least one that you immediately recognize. Why is that and who would you consider?

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>>3233721
Our first is the most famous. D. Afonso Henriques. And the legend is that Christ himself blessed him and the Portuguese Kingdom in a vision during the battle of Ourique: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ourique

It served to reinforce the independence of Portugal.

>>3233989
>Afonso Henriques
Shame about the lack of english sources, he sounds pretty great.

Any other monarch worth mentioning specially during the Portuguese Golden/Exploration Age?

>>3234005
The all Avis dynasty. After that, one is definitely João VI , who outplayed Napoleon. Very underrated King in Portugal.

>>3234025
D. João II
D. Dinis

>>3219728
Its actually the second greatest medal a portuguese can receive, the first being the Order of the Tower and Sword

>>3233673
>The small landowners in the north were poor (and no bank would lend them money) so they couldn't buy machinery and the more wealthy south landowners had access to VERY cheap labor. The crappy wages and low standards of living promoted this.
>The cherry on top was the Estado Novo propaganda campaign exalting the virtues of the farmer that toiled the land with its hand tools as the virtuous one and the continuation of traditional ways of life
>But that's beyond the point, the state had a very strong agricultural reform going on (Campanha do Trigo later renamed Campanha de Produção Agrícola) that "incentivized" certain regions to produce a certain crop. This is also the same agricultural reform that "incentivized" the removal of crop rotation and fallow practices that turned a lot of areas into barren wastes.

Now we northerns still work hard and have to fund the cozy lifestyle of Lisboa while we still receive less, still it was better to have the lands occupied and worked than having the abandoned and that people in the fundo de inserção social

>It was the first republic that made primary school mandatory, and don't forget that they also had a pretty significant reform to modernize education with a more secular and science focused curriculum but it was curbstomped with the 1926 coup.
The first republic failed to bring the education levels to european standards because of financial problems (we lost a ton of money with WW1 and the inflation disaster the came after it), not because of failed education reforms.

True, but the currículo was quite badly applied, since the class that could teach (priest) were persecuted, while the estado novo under Hermano Saraiva made 1 million portuguese technically litterate


> The future
They nationalized a shit ton of industries and lands, then they changed makes of important marks of progress Salazar made. Then they proceded to build some necessáry shit, and some shit for the English man to see, for votes

>>3233721

What, it is claimed that D. João II inspired Machiavel to write the prince

We also had, D. Dinis, D. João i and iv, D. Sancho and D. Afonso the i and iv, D. Manuel. And so on, it is easier to pick the bad ones than the goods, specially the 1 and 2 dinasties

>>3234870
>Now we northerns still work hard and have to fund the cozy lifestyle of Lisboa while we still receive less,
You should probably get out of your little village and visit the rest of the country then.

>it was better to have the lands occupied and worked than having the abandoned and that people in the fundo de inserção social
Now you're just being autistic

>True, but the currículo was quite badly applied, since the class that could teach (priest) were persecuted, while the estado novo under Hermano Saraiva made 1 million portuguese technically litterate
Again, not true, the first republic created schools to graduate teachers as well as mobile schools that would visit remote villages. They wanted to liberate education from the religious class and took measures to do just that. In fact, much of those graduated teachers were the reason why estado novo could implement the network of primary schools around the country.
Much like the education reforms that we see from our governments today, we won't really see the result until one or even two decades after they're put into place.

>They nationalized a shit ton of industries and lands
Unless you're really young or just don't remember, the state privatized a crap ton of industries these past decades (far, far more than nationalizations). And land grabs to build infrastructures was common practice in the days of Salazar too.

>then they changed makes of important marks of progress Salazar made
Like what?

>Then they proceded to build some necessáry shit,
Well that's good

>and some shit for the English man to see, for votes
You don't have to please your constituents if you don't have a democracy.

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>>3235281

These abrupt changed cause instability and waste a lot of resources, the 3rd republic has been moderatly stable because of a social security scheme, yet so many of us are oblivious and complacent that half of us dont vote, what democracy is a democracy like that? They feel abandoned.

They could have modernized education back then by making the clergy pay like a private school, allowing techinicians oustside the teocracy to make their schools to, while also opening state schools, they instead persecuted the clergy and like that the clergy backed Salazar

Back in the hot summer a lot of nationalizations happened, commies were so bold they were literally ocupas, my mom says sometimes my grandad (f) had to chase some commies out is propriety with a chainsaw, they aproprieted a lot of lands to build daycares, they were probably smoking weed or hash
Naturally those lands were given back, and nationalizations would take place, the state can run most of this business, just go see the results and the debt of those state companies

With such display of lack of contempt for it's people, the gov's have to pay high and good money that could be improving our lifes and making relevant public works, without derrapagens, in games and bread, they even revived the 3 f's, as you saw with Salazar he did many, but never to much like 2 highways to Algarve, or an attempt to a TGV, or renewal energies with the prices you get

I dont want necessarly the new state (estado novo) again, i just want them all to be as serious as he was

>>3235424
>>the state can run most of this business
>the state cant run most of this business
>cant

Fixed

>>3198456
>this will never happen irl

sadsauerkraut.jpg

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Anyone got any /his/ recommended books for Portugal in the 20th century? 19th would also be acceptable.

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>>3236304
this charts' last section is on the napoleonic wars >>3215795

see pic related for more relevant works

Vou dar um Bumpão nesta merda masé