>Germany started WW1

They didn't start it but were the primary aggressor and jumped at the chance to attack their neighborhoods.

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>Germany didn't start WW1

Yeah it was Serbia lmao

>>3140342
It was mostly austro-hungarian autism tbqh

>>3140366
Checkd

>>3140381
I mean, they did have their arch duke assassinated. I think just about any country would respond with war if that were to happen.

Never understood stormfag logic
>Declaring war against Russia and France, and invading Belgium does not make a world war
>Britain and France declaring war against Germany after it invades Poland makes a world war

>>3140392
The archduke was actually an embarrassment to the hasburgs (which is a shame, because he was a pretty chill guy). Nobody in the government was even remotely saddened by his passing, they just wanted to leverage it to fuck up the serbs.

>>3140402
Regardless of opinion, the assassination of a lead political figure with no attempt to compensate in any way is a sure fire way to have war declared in your country

>>3140366
epic
>>3140381
/thread

>>3140412
>>3140392
You are forgetting the fact that Serbia was ready to go full gestapo against the black hand and would give people without even evidence to Austria just to apease the autistic tantrum they were arming up
Funny how it was Austria who started this war and easily one of the worst players

>>3140412
They agreed to pretty much all the demands though

>>3140342
>German history in a nutshell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfYnvDL0Qcw

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>>3140394
>Russia and France aren't to blame for the war

>>3140412
They agreed to literally every single one of the austro-hungarian demands, except the ones which were just put in their by the austrians to be as outrageous as possible, to force the serbs to reject it and give them a pretense for declaring war. The germans probably shit themselves when they saw what the austro-hungarians had sent out.

>>3140428
*European

>>3140429
All of Europe is to blame for WW1.

>>3140448
Now there's something everyone can agree on

>>3140448
They were just making the best of what was a very, very, very bad situation.

>>3140448
No, only g*ermans

>>3140342
>>3140342

The only reason why everybody starting attacking Germany is because of Belgium. Politically, Germany would have been in a much stronger position if they had counter-attacked in the east, but fought a purely defensive war in the rest while respecting the sovereignty of neutral nations. This would force France to attack Germany and make France appear to be the aggressor in the conflict.

>>3140471
Too bad moltke was autistic

>>3140464
>Britain isn't villain #1

Let's clear this shit up
Austria-Hungary started the war
Germany freaked out at first but decided to make the best of the situation and scalated the whole thing
and in all this Serbia was just a poor shit hole that got dragged in
(shit hole that kicked Austria twice before Germany came)

>>3140491

Considering that Britain did nothing except try to act as a mediator until after France was invaded, Britain has a pretty good claim to #1 good guy.

>>3140350

The irony is that Germany is the European power that actually mobilized last.

Seeing as Russia and France were in a pretty good position at the time to beat the Germans in a two front war, I also think they were very large contributors. Russia's economy was quite strong at the time (cause slave labour) and France was a very militaristic country after being defeated in the Franco war.

>>3140496

Correct.

>>3140503
>Britain isn't villain #1
Should've clarified that I'm not referring to WW1 specifically, just the entirety if the empire

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>>3140444
Trips confirms it

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>>3140479

>ok, the moment we have been waiting 40 years for is finally here
>lets take a look at the plan that has been years in the making
>its says 'keep the right wing strong'.
>hmm ok
>'the french will be lured into attacking far into the weak alsace lorraine only to realize paris has fallen because of their army is in the strategically worthless alsace and not defending paris'
>ok
>ammendum
>'keep the right wing strong, its the key to the whole plan'
>oh, its a note that has Schlieffen's last words it reads, 'keep the right wing strong'.

>....
>....
>*Moves 25% of the right wing to the left wing*

>There. Perfect.

>>3140392
They didn't have proof he was supported by the Serbian state. I blame them for being one of the primary reasons the war broke out but still I understand why they did it. Most other countries would react the same way though

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>portugal started WW1

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>>3140491
What are you on

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>>3140496
>Germany freaked out at first

They really didnt
Germans were the ones who pressured A-H into starting the war

Every nation has ulterior motive for the war
Germany was obviously in support of her ally but also want to curb the ever growing threat of Russia,she has been the most powerful nation for 40 years but it was clear that Russia might take over after their rapid modernization after 1905,also it was a good chance to whip french revanchism
Austria Hungary want to expand their Balkan hegemony,they probably had no motive to annex Serbia itself but a compliant Belgrade would be beneficial
Ottoman was in a slump and courting the central powers was a no brainer in getting investement and propping up their decaying rule
Bulgaria was still autistic about the balkan war and has a good chance of reclaiming their lost land
Italy was still bitter on the austro hungarians and want to take their lands back
France still couldnt get over Alsace Lorraine
Serbia wanted their perceived slav unity and killing the archduke is something they want since he would likely change AH into some sort ot federalist state with more autonomy on the various Slav
Russia are trumping up their pan slavism and the tsar wanted people to turn their heads from internal problems
Belgium hegemony was just a de jure casus for the brits,the kaiser had pissed them off with his spergy naval race
The US wanted a seat in the winning table and genuinely concern of their neighbours

>>3140525
stay woke

>>3140556
>wikipedia

>>3140524

It isn't just that they invaded Serbia, it's that they deliberately misrepresented what they were doing to both Germany and Russia. Germany was sending mixed signals, simultaneously saying that they'd support Austria no matter what while at the same time asking them to slow down pursue a diplomatic solution. Ultimately, the Kaiser wanted the Austrian army to "stop in Belgrade" meaning that the Austrians would occupy the city of Belgrade and then wait for a diplomatic solution before doing anything else. Meanwhile, once it became clear that Austria would not consider any option that didn't result in the complete destruction of Serbia, both Russia and Germany felt that they'd been deceived. However, Germany ultimately decided that they had no choice but to make the best of a shitty situation and support Austria no matter the consequences. The German army generals came to adopt the view that it was better to have a war now then sometime down the road when Russia would be even stronger. They also felt that any delay would weaken Germany's military position because Germany's main strength over Russia was its ability to mobilize far more quickly and efficiently. This created a situation where the German generals were adamantly against any delay to going to action, because the entire Schlieffen Plan (Germany's ONLY military plan for a world war) hinged on bold, decisive action in the opening days of the war.

>>3140611
Russia could actually mobilize very fast
10 days compared to France or Germany which needs 14,they could not make any slow decision since they know that the ruskies would mobilise faster.Also i thought Germany had 3 war plans (war with france,war with russia,two front war)

>>3140599
As opposed to your unsouced opinion

>>3140599
>if it's in Wikipedia it's definitely not true
>if I made it up off the top of my head it's totally true

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>>3140662
Have yet to comment my opinion I was just lurking

>>3140679
That doesn't make your post less retarded.

>>3140646

It's safe to say that Germany heavily under-estimated the speed that Russia could mobilize. Kaiser Wilhem had something approaching a nervous breakdown in front of his generals once it became apparent that the Russian army was responding much more quickly than anybody had imagined. He accused them of being unwilling to sit next to him.

>>3140687
Are you trying to tell me that Wikipedia is a consistently credible source?

Of course it did, it made a local conflict into a WW, raping their way through Belgium and with muh total submarine warfare.

>>3140696
Are you trying to tell me making things up is a consistently credible source?

>>3140705
Maybe you just didn't notice the earlier comment, but I actually have yet to express my perception on the statement

>>3140689
Tannenberg and masurian lakes were superbly critical and people rarely talk about it
Most of the people would talk about the miracle of the Marne but they didnt know that the Ruskies was very close to entering the Reich

>>3140569
>every nation
Except Belgium and Greece

>>3140712
Yes I did notice your earlier comment and replied to it.

In all seriousness, Wikipedia isn't ideal or perfect but the unfortunate thing about discussing history on the internet is that there aren't really any good sources (most of the time, sometimes there's some useful info on university websites) that you can provide in free flowing discussion. The history journals are all pay to view and you can't really expect someone to source and read a history book during an ongoing thread.

I have a degree in history and the only people I notice on this board getting booty-blasted about Wikipedia are the retards who want to sit there making things up off the top of their heads.

It started because the germans wanted the austrians to stay out of war by lining their pockets but in fact this just led to the austrians being more reckless and warmongering.
So although it was the austrians fault, it was ACTUALLY the germans fault.

>>3140523
>Yo, moltke, I just finished the plan that calls for us to mobilize but not immediately attack through belgium
>yeah, we won't need that
>Oh, ok..... Do you, like, want us to at least save the plan?
>...... naaaaaaaah
>>3140556
A european war was the last thing on the german's minds. According to page 37 of A world undone, "Everything known about Kaiser Wilhelm and his closest associates indicates that in early july they saw little possibility of a general european war. Falkenhayn's skepticism about whether Vienna would in the end actually end up doing anything reflected widespread german doubt... Recent experience also encouraged the germans to be equally skeptical of Russia. Evidently it was all but inconceivable to them the russians would feel not only capable of taking military action, but compelled to do so..... Falkenhayn asked the kaiser if military preperations were ready. He said no, and soon returned to his boat-racing vacation off the coast of norway."

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>>3140349

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>[ludendorff] and [his doctor] continued to confer. The doctor's ultimate diagnosis: "This man is utterly lonely."
>Utterly lonely: the theme of Ludendorff's life. He had spent his first four and a half decades in a terrible solitude. Then, suddenly and unexpectedly, he had found an escape. And now, the solitude was closing in on him once again.
>ludendorff in childhood was notable for three things: He was obsessed with cleanliness; He was a diligent and talented student; And he had no capacity for making friends.
>after receiving his comission, he went through the usual rotation of assignments, distinguishing himself at every step. In his late twenties, he was selected to study at the War Academy, an honor reserved for only the most promising young officers.
>But he was still alone.

>>3140762
nicki really fucked up.

>if you dance with the devil, he might take you home

>>3140731
Was german bipolar like willy?
They both wanted and try to avoid a war at the same time it seems

>>3140731

I'm currently listening to "A World Undone" and frankly it is really starting to piss me off how many times important people go on vacation right in the middle of a diplomatic shitstorm. If it were a work of fiction, I'd call it a running joke.

I also like the fact that the author makes a point of showing that Tirpitz was the only German military leader who really tried to slow things down to allow for the possibility of a diplomatic solution. Reading between the lines a bit, I interpret as a way of showing just how inflexible the Schlieffen plan actually was. Being a navy man, Tirpitz wasn't mentally buried in the plan the way that the army leaders were. It didn't amount to anything because the army leaders just ignored him because they were completely unwilling to accept any delay because Schlieffen plan depended entirely on rapid deployment and that was the ONLY plan that they had in place.

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>>3140787
>Then one evening when he was forty four and apparently consigned to permanet bachelorhood, he noticed a woman stranded in the rain as he was walking home after one of his long days of work. He offered to share his umbrella, and the woman gratefully accepted. She was Margarethe Pernet, beautiful, lively, the mother of three young sons and a daughter, unhappily married. Somehow- it seems as miraculous for a man as sealed up inside himself as ludendorff- the two connected. They were married as soon as Margarthe could divorce her husband.
>A new life, a new world, opened for Ludendorff. He delighted in his new family, and his children worshipped him......But now a new dimension was added, a connection, thanks to his ready-made family, to a wider and cheerier range of experience. All the evidence indicates that the marriage was genuinely intimate and happy, and Ludendorff's carreer flourished.

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>>3140794

>I don't want to be a czar, I never wanted to be a czar. I have no idea how to be a czar. What am I going to do?

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>>3140820

Nicki

>oppress people
>riots break out
>violently suppress them
>some Serb kills a monarch
>declare war to defend the Serbs
>basically supporting regicide
>ally with the regicidal French government
>ally with the cucked English """""monarchy""""
>alliances erode your credibility as a monarch
>send army out to war despite your civil unrest
>even worse, try to play at general
>get tons of people killed
>get self killed
>get family killed
Did he ever make a good decision?

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>>3140812
>His stepsons, all of whom emulated Ludendorff and had been preparing for military carreers, went eagerly to war.
>The eldest son, Franz, a promising youngster almost as gifted academically as his stepfather and far more popular with his peers, began to apply for the flying corps, and was finally accepted with Ludendorff's help. His brothers soon followed his example, and soon all three were pilots flying combat missions on the eastern front.
>In septermber 1917, [franz] was shot down over the english channel and killed. WHen Ludendorff heard of this, he hurried to berlin to break the news to his wife. He was stricken, and perhaps guilty at having made they boy's flying career possible. Margarethe was shattered.
>Ludendorff was especially close to the youngest of his stepsons, who happened to share his first name. In march 1918 he received word that young Erich, still a teenager, had been shot down behind british lines, his fate uncertain. Not long afterwards, with german troops advancing across france in the michael offensive, ludendorff was told of the discovery of a fresh grave. Its marker, in english, said "Here rest two german pilots." He went to the grave and had the bodies dug up.
> [spoiler] one was Erich's. [/spoiler[
>It was temporarily reburied at avesnes while arrangements were made for its transfer to Berlin.
>That was where Ludendorff was going when he began to dissapear from headquarters: to brood at Erich's grave. That was also where an army doctor heard "reports of occasional crying".
>Nothing could ever be the same. Margarethe was broken, permanently in the grip of depression, grief, and fear. Ludendorrf, in his own words, felt that the war had taken everything.

>>3140802
They wanted to achieve the political goals of winning a war without actually fighting it, it was just turbo sabre-rattling to them

>>3141129
Seems to be right,but willy must be really deluded in thinking that giving the Austrians a free pass was a good idea

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everyone itt needs to read this book. all of reasons why the war broke out

>>3140437
What demands?

>>3141210
This.

Germans are literally the most autistic people ever. Evident by their utter incompetence in diplomacy and lack of foresight. Versailles was not harsh enough, Germany was and is a mistake.

>>3142431
You must be polish.

>>3142545
No. How come?

>>3140342
They didn't start, but were responsible for starting it. A world without an unified Germany would've not seen the World Wars as we understand them.

>>3140849
Even his wife was terrible, so probably no

>>3140525
>Portuguese First Republic thirsty to make itself known and gain legitimacy after overthrowing the centuries old dinasty just years before
>Makes incursions into bordering German colonies in Africa
>Germans counterattack
>Portugal manipulates the Anglo into atracking Germany

The eternal Luso plays a sheep but it has been behind every major conflict of the XX century

>>3140342
No, sometimes filthy anarchistic Serb.

WWI as if it were a regular fight:

>Serbia's dog bites Austria in the leg
>Austria starts the fight
>Russia tells them to chill
>Germany starts throwing punches randomly in everyone in the room

>>3143850

I maintain France would have felt compelled to defend Russia, and it would have gotten involved whether Germany invaded or not. HOWEVER. Attacking France through Belgium is what brought Britain into the war, and Britain very likely would have maintained neutrality if not for that. The Schlieffen cost Germany the entire war. If Germany had adopted a defensive stance on the western front, using the Rhine as a natural bulwark, then France would have been forced to try and invade Germany, which would have made France appear as the aggressor in the war. This avoids the political fallout that comes with invading Belgium. Also, defending requires fewer troops than attacking does, so maintaining a purely defensive stance on the western front would have allowed Germany to transfer more troops to the east.

>>3140794
>>3140762
It was austria that fucked up.
>hmm terrorists have assasinated the heir
>right the assasins have all been arrested
>Lets declare war on the entirety of Serbia, a country that is in close relationship with an empire that currently has the largest army in the world
>reeeee why does Russia uphold its alliances Germany save us

>>3143101
Everyone who hates Germany for ruining 20th Century Europe must be Polish.

>>3143850
>Serbia's dog bites Austria in the leg
>Austria starts the fight
>Russia tells them to chill
here is where your analogy breaks down. what happened next:
>russia starts loading up to punch austria
>germany gets ready to punch russia for punching austria
>germany realizes if he punches russia, france will punch germany
>germany's long thought-out plan for this exact fight includes an overwhelming strike to france before going after russia
>germany wheels around to punch france
>for germany to punch france he has to beat the shit out of belgium
>when germany punches belgium, the brits jump in to help france
>germany starts punching france
>russia tries to punch germany and gets their shit pushed in
>france and the brits punch germany at the marne
>4 years of trench warefare

>>3140349

This

It would have just been Russia vs Austria-Hungary without Germany.

There were just so many mistakes the Germans did up until that war, that were just dumb. Such as trying to build up a naval arms race against Britain, befriending the Ottomans,spurning Russia and Britain because the French started becoming friendly with them etc.

AND FIRST AND FOREMOST NEVER ENTER A WAR IN WHICH YOU HAVE TO FIGHT IN TWO FRONTS, FUCK.

>>3144493

>3 years later
>America rushes into the room to finish off a heavily weakened Germany and then claims complete credit for victory

>>3144505

Germany very nearly won the war, and likely would have if not for Moltke weakening the right wing which was the entire point of the Schlieffen plan

It is unknown to many but the most important battles of World War 1 were fought on Albanian Ground meaning Albania won WW1 without losing a single soldier.

>>3144505
Why is Germany at fault for helping an ally but Russia isn't at fault for defending Serbia? I'm not defending the Germans I think they were in the wrong but that's faulty logic. With your logic it was Russia's fault because it should've just been a war between AH and Serbia.

>>3140418
>>3140437

Except the rejected one was also the most important, which would have allowed Austria to conduct their own investigation instead of only having the Serbians do their own investigation.

I think it's a pretty reasonable demand, considering that there was a heavy possibility that the Serbian government, or at the very least, officials of the Serbian government would be implicated in the assassination. That's very heavy motivation for the Serbians to half-ass/cover up the investigation.

Everyone laughed at Russia when they did their MH-17 investigation, and gave much more credibility to the independent Dutch investigation. You can draw a pretty simple parallel here.

>>3140503
>The irony is that Germany is the European power that actually mobilized last.
No it's not. In fact part of its entire strategy was to mobilize before Russia and secure the west before turning to face the east.

>>3144979

Because no reasonable person could look at the situation and say that Austria was acting reasonably.

>>3144979
Yeah its kind of confusing, Russia was helping Serbia because of imperialists intrests much like Germany was helping Austro Hungary for their own imperialist intrests. Russia wanted an ally in the area and serbia was the only one willing. Ally in the area was important because even Russia knew Austro hungary was dying so they needed support from someone in the area to help with land grabs from the dying empire. Serbia getting absorbed by austro hungary would be a big fuck you for those plans. Germanys own intrest in the fight was more to just keep Austro hungary around because without it France and Russia would double team Germany like no tommorow.

>>3145032
Slavic identity was a big thing at the turn of the century in the Balkans.

>>3145031
I think only country that was acting resonably was France of all the countries. Britain, Russia, Germany, Austro-hungary were all being imperialist dicks waving their dicks around.

>>3145045
Yeah its also a useful excuse for Russia to interfere and absorb balkan land into itself.

>>3140852
He was truly our guy

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>The Americans entered WW2 to stop the Holocaust

>>3144994

I'm not sure what your point is. It's a historical fact that Russia began mobilizing first and that Germany then mobilized in response to Russian mobilization. Tsar Nicky II ordered mobilization on July 30, and Kaiser Wilhem ordered mobilization on August 1.

>>3145083
The Kaiser's order was irrelevant, the Germans had already begun mobilizing and plus they had already sent spies and saboteurs into the Low Countries to prepare their advance. They were aggressors from the start, they were the bad guys and they deserved every concession made at Versailles. Ask any Belgian, and they'll agree with me.

>>3145093

[citation needed]

>>3145093
Actually Britain was the cause of WW1. Just ask any Boer.

>>3145093
>They were aggressors from the start
so you don't actually know anything about this topic

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>french revolution caused world war 1

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here is a WW1 blame chart I found, notice how the further you go down the more Entente and less Central Powers individuals there are.
Germans and friends are always the bad guys anons, always.

>>3140852
imo the personal stories are the best part of history.

>>3145056
Austria-Hungary, Germany and Russia were to blame. In that order.

>>3145273
Id still put britain last there too. They had their own imperial intrests in europe at the time. Their whole strategy for the past 100 years had been to stop any country in europe from growing too strong to oppose them and this was pretty much the end result of that. Its pretty equally retarded logic as the Germans used to punch everyone at the same time too.

>>3145347
Funnily enough I'd say this is one war where Britain held little responsibility. Their strategy that you mention had caused numerous wars in the past, yet this is one situation where the British government was actively trying to mediate/prevent war on the continent. Because of Britain's past scheming and wars to prevent one nation from becoming too powerful it's easy to think they did it again in WW1, yet looking at the British government's actions that doesn't seem to be the case.

>>3144979

Both Austria-Hungary and Russia acted irrationally and were about to duke it out for little parcel of land called Serbia. The Russians knew that the Romanians and Serbians would jump head in in such a conflict and did it anyway. Meanwhile Austria pussied out and called Germany for help in a war they knew they couldn't win because of the independence movements inside their borders.

Honestly Germany had done a lot of dumb stuff as I mentioned before that made them out to be a huge threat in the balance of power in central europe, they also did stuff that I didn't mention such as the German-Denmark Holstein war. In a perfectly rational scenario, Germany should have never got into an alliance with Austria, and let Russia and Austria fight it out. Austria may have lost, but in any case, they had no business in the balkans to begin with. Even if they lost, they would not have collapsed like they did in WWI. Of course wars are not a rational affair.

>>3144963

The Schlieffen plan suffered from being too general, it more or less was executed according to Moltkes wishes, even if they had taken over Belgium completely, there was no way to repeat the Franco-Prussian victory and it would still be the war of attrition the western front was. As I said before, where a scenario like the Schlieffen plan is realistic is fighting a one front war, that is won in 2 years tops, like the Franco-Prussian war.

>>3145347
>Be Britain
>try to keep balance
>as a effect of your actions 2 superpowers emerge

>>3145236
waiting for someone to post this.

I made it originally, so it's 100% true

>>3146434

Then you should remake it and add Alfred von Schlieffen for creating the "attack France through Belgium" meme in the first place. I'd put him in "partially responsible-tier" because was technically dead before the war started.

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>>3140349
>primary aggressor
>Russia first to mobilize for war

>>3145093

Actually Belgium was the cause of WW1. Just asking anybody from Congo.

>>3146737
>Brawl is started by the guy who put down his coat first, not the guys who threw first punches against their targets and random bystanders

>>3146780
Yeah, wars and bar fights aren't all that similar there bud. In this case putting down your coat should really be "I'm about to punch you."

>>3146780

The first "punch" was when Serbia assassinated the Archduke. Germany only did was necessary to support its ally.

During the cold war the US said they wouldn't back the euros in colonial wars, they weren't going to send kids to die to preserve their empires.

Germany could have stayed out of the balkans meme war and it would be no dust off their shoulders, but they were frothing at the mouth for war, Willy himself calling innocent British "mad as spring hares". Would he have torn a live baby apart with his fangs? I don't know. He might have done.

Regardless the Germans escalated it into a world war with the result of the rise of fascism and communism and setting the stage for instability or much of the 20th century.

>>3144985
>Dutch
>Independent
>Pick one

Seriously, the county with most people on plane is conducting an investigation? Sure to be unbiased.

>>3140394
France probably declared war on Germany first, by about 15 minutes. Russia declared war on Germany first, by several hours.