Austria-Hungary

nationalism

Nationalist autism.

The 1867 Ausgleich.

>>3128859
>nationalism
that and republicanism

>>3128865

that is an event not a factor, you're looking for >>3128859

>>3128884
The 1867 compromise was appeasing Hungarian nationalism.

Nationalistic memes

Getting the shit kicked out of them by Prussia and having to give land to the Italians, the Hungarians smelt blood in the water and a chance to assert themselves

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>>3128854
Op here. Another question.
Would you say the leadership of Austria-Hungary helped or hurt it's longevity?
>pic related

>>3129221
Hard to say, Austria-Hungary was a long long way from physically collapsing. It wasnt exactly the most stable empire but it was hardly the 'sick man of Europe'.

>>3128854
What was life in AH like for a non-austrian/hungarian?

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>>3128884
>I have never read a book about A-H

>>3129004 is sort of hinting at it. Many of the monarchy's nationalities wanted reform prior to the war, not independence - this generally entailed being raised onto the same 'level' as the Hungarians, with power to govern their own crownland. The Budapest parliament did literally everything it could to keep the Dual Monarchy politically paralyzed; it was filled with rich landholders who kept the voting franchise hilariously over-engineered to keep them in power (as opposed to giving Romanians, Slovaks, and even non-aristocratic Magyars representation), while using their parliament's constitutional power to prevent the Dual Monarchy from elevating Bohemia or Croatia into a Triple Monarchy or even turning A-H into a federation (these things would make Budapest less important and influential, after all).

Even worse, Budapest was (rightly) fearful of the Habsburg dynasty itself gaining too much political capital to the point where it could tell the Magyar parliament to fuck off, along with a fear that they might just instigate a quick civil war to manually crush Budapest's power (something Franz Ferdinand actually wanted to do). As such, they kept funding for the Monarchy's shared army cripplingly low, which was the core reason why the Monarchy entered WW1 with the second-largest European population but by far the smallest army.

>>3129251
...so it was the Hungarian parliament's fault for most of Austria-Hungary's political, and logistical shortcomings through out it's existence?

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>>3129221
Franz Joseph was, contrary to popular belief, very popular through much of the second half of his reign. Fluent in nearly every language of his subjects, a relentlessly hard worker who awoke at 5:00am every day, and a diligent servant of his people in spite of seemingly endless tragedies in his personal life did much to generally cement him as a sort of steady, grandfatherly figure in an age of rapid economic, political, and technological change. His passing in 1916 was an authentic blow to the Monarchy's morale.

As for whether he was a good leader, that's a bit more complicated. While he did an excellent job as a popular figurehead that held the Monarchy's peoples together (he was notoriously mean to anti-semitism, even) his generally trend of decisions as a ruler tended to favour a quiet and comfy status quo rather than making the dramatic chances the Monarchy would need to survive. Neo-absolutism was a joke that it took losing a war to finally dispose of, and the Ausgleich (as discussed above) was a terrible idea motivated by the Kaiser's overarching quest for domestic peace at any cost.

tl;dr he was great for the present of A-H as long as he was around, but didn't make the hard decisions needed for A-H's future.

>>3129268

Honestly, pretty much.

Though the Czechs and Germans in Bohemia were both nationalist cunts who wanted to fuck each other over and caused all kinds of problems. Moravia was a lot quieter thanks to local compromises that might have been possible if the major Czech parties weren't full of retards who thought the Russian Tsar was going to bring them democracy by way of a pan-Slavic union.

>>3129268
Not all (the general inefficiency of Austrian bureaucracy is literally a thing of legend), but Budapest was responsible for two key things: Cockblocking reform of the constitutional system, and vigorously blocking funding for the K.u.K.

>>3129247
That depends where, as what nationality, and what you mean by 'what life was like.' A-H in 1900 had literacy rates comparable to France and Germany, which means you were 1. probably literate, and the slow rate of industrialization meant you were 2. probably a farmer.

If you're asking if life was harder for those not of the two 'peoples of state,' that's again pretty complicated, and again pretty dependent on geography and your nationality. In Cisleithania (Vienna-controlled territory) you were fluent in your own language and probably German as well due to it being a language of business and administration - that being said, your crownland's administration would be the same. In Transleithania (Budapest-controlled territory) there were actual policies of Magyarization, meaning that you were legally required to speak Hungarian if you wanted any place in the administration or even higher education.

Galicia, part of Cisleithania, was another weird kettle of fish altogether. Poles dominated the crownland diet and generally made up most of the upper class to begin with, and were really aggressive about trying to assimilate the Ukrainians living in that area.

>What were the main factors that lead to the dissolution of Austria-Hungary?

Woodrow Wilson, really.

Nationalism prior to the war is overrated. With the exception of a few Hungarians and Czechs, most nationalities in the Empire were loyal to the Habsburgs. Though the army had different views, and when the war began and they began mass executions of Croats, Slovenians and Ukrainians as potential traitors, while establishing a incompetent military dictatorship, the social fabric of the Empire imploded.

Still it could have survived. Emperor Charles told the army to fuck off once crowned and could have turn things around, if it wasn't for Woodrow Wilson deciding that this whole Habsburg ruling in Central Europe business was not progressive enough.

>>3129385

Czechs and Serbs, I think you mean. Croats and Slovenes were generally regarded as among the more loyal nationalities, Croats in particular. Meanwhile the head of the largest Czech political party had to be imprisoned after calling on Czech conscripts to go over to the Tsar and help the Supreme Autocrat of all the Russias bring them liberty.

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>>3129360
Moravia found a sort of comfy compromise between Czechs and Germans because they were roughly equal halves of the population there.

Czechs in general were a lot more unruly in Bohemia because they made up the ethnic majority, and, uh. Well, I'm not as sure about the whole thing about the Tzar, but there were a lot of cunts among their political parties with some weird delusions. That they went on to create Czechoslovakia, a country with a German population that dwarfed the Slovak one and figured this wouldn't end up a problem at all, kind of showcases that.

Pic related is one of /his/'s recommended books, and for good reason - it gives a lot of insight into how Austria made it to WW1 in the first place, and how while there was a lot of fuss over nationalism, the Dual Monarchy wasn't quite the 'jail of nations' it's been derided as.

>>3129406
This book is good, but it severely downplays nationalism.

I'd guess historians are trying to rehabilitate the image of multiethnic empires of the past in order to make the European Union more palatable. Peter Wilson's book about the Holy Roman Empire comes to mind as another one of this trend.

The decisive factor for the dissolution of A-H was the Entente blockade. What undermined the legitimacy of the Dual Monarchy more than anything was its inability to feed its own people - while Germany could partially compensate with brutally autocratic micromanagement of the economy fuelled by German autism, Austria could not, and so its subject peoples began searching for any way to escape this war and get access to food again - independence being the most straightforward.

>>3129385
'Turning things around' would have required a civil war by 1918, though. Right at the end, Boroevic straight-up asked Karl if he wanted him to march the army back to Vienna to restore order, bring Budapest to heel, and pull a Kemal Ataturk and tell the Allies and their peace terms to fuck off.

Karl, a gentle soul to the end, said he didn't want to force himself on an empire that didn't want him anymore.

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>>3129221
Op here again. This is an extremely hypothetical question.
What would have been required for A-H to not become the logistical, and mismanaged mess it became during the great war?

>>3129473

Fire Conrad. Preferably out of a cannon.

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>>3129251
Isn't it an irony that Jewish Marxists, like the ones that came up with the idea of "national personal autonomy", did more to try to preserve the Empire, than the Hungarian and Polish aristocracies.

Pic somewhat related. Joseph Roth was a Jewish socialist who felt some sort of nostalgia for A-H.

>>3129428
>downplays nationalism

literally the 1800s onward is strictly describing nationalist autism contests

>I'd guess historians are trying to rehabilitate the image of multiethnic empires of the past in order to make the European Union more palatable.

Or maybe you're being a cynic and there's just a re-examination of something literally everyone has spent the past century shitting on without questioning how it existed for 300~ years? The overall thesis of the book is that nationalism and personal loyalties are more complicated than most people think.

I'd wait for people trying to rehabilitate the image of Tzarist Russia and how it governed its own various nationalities before jumping to that conclusion.

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>>3129473
Well that would take a number of >>3129478 oh nevermind someone nailed it.

Ironically towards the end of the war it actually did a pretty good job of organizing its war economy and its army; the trouble was that up until then the decentralized nature of Austria's government really didn't lend itself to the unity of command and tight organization needed for a wartime footing.

A-H ended the war starving but with a pretty well-organized internal structure. The trouble was that by the time it achieved that organization, it was too late.

>>3129478
>>3129517
I don't know a whole lot about Conrad besides he was pretty incompetent.
Was there a reason for this?
Did he have poor upbringing, lackluster military training, personal grudges?

>>3129532

Cadorna was just a brutal idiot. Conrad on the other hand was one of those people who are too clever for their own good. He was also lazy and prone to panic, as well as exceedingly neurotic and touchy about his pride.

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>>3129491
Jews, full stop, adored A-H. In 1915, the US government did a survey of newspapers to get a feel for which side the people supported, and the demographics of newspapers created surprising and unsurprising results - Germany was generally only reported favourably by German-immigrant newspapers, and Jewish newspapers did the same with Austria-Hungary.

Franz Joseph himself was very kind to the empire's Jewish population, best embodied by his year-long trolling of Viennese mayor Karl Lueger.

Jews were also allowed to serve as officers in the Austrian Landwehr, which was not only unique in much of Europe, but provided a means for Jews to assimilate into Austrian society via a 'respectable' occupation.

Of course, the Jews had another, simpler motive for their loyalties. If the Empire dissolved into different nation-states for different peoples, where would the Jews go?

>>3129560
I feel bad for them imagine being a veterans of the first world war then being rounded up by nazis during the second

>>3129532
Most generals blundered into 1914 with a profound naivety of what modern warfare was going to consist of. Conrad was especially guilty of this, compounded by what >>3129542 said along with some profoundly stupid personal beliefs on strategy.

>>3129542

Conrad was anything but lazy. He was fucking obsessed with his job.

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>>3129577
One thing I thought after reading this book >>3129406 is that "German culture" in the XIXth century wasn't a matter of ethnicity, but of assimilation into a high culture. As Jews assimilated into non-Jewish culture, German culture was the natural path and most of they really saw themselves as Germans.

The transformation of "Germanity" from something you could assimilate into towards something you were born with as an ethnic feature happened in the late XIXth century and early 20th and it was one of the most tragic results of all the national awakenings that happened in Europe at the time.

>tfw no more liberal German Mitteleuropa

>>3129542
>>3129584
Okay, then what about the other military leaders of Austria-Hungary?
Did they also have such large blunders as Conrad. Did they do any notable deeds before, during, or after the Great War?

>>3129665

The commanders of the Austrian armies in Galicia in 1914-1915 were answering to Conrad as head of the General Staff and deputy head of Armeeoberkommando. The nominal Commander-in-Chief Archduke Friedrich just went along with him. Viktor Dankl won a battle against the Russians in Poland at Krasnik, and Mauritz von Auffenberg won a battle at Komorow before Conrad's strategic direction led him into the disaster at the Battle of Rawa-Ruska. Rudolf Brudermann just failed hard defending against the Russians in East Galicia but Conrad leading Second Army as a notional "flexible reserve" meant it was left hanging for most of the first month of the war and so the Austro-Hungarians were massively outnumbered anyway.

Conrad did have a hand in planning the highly successful Gorlice-Tarnow Offensive but after that the strategic direction of the war was largely under German control. His "Strafeexpedtion" in 1916 against the Italians out of Tyrol was also an unexpected success but it meant the KuK Armee had its eye off the ball in the east. The success of the Brusilov Offensive was largely down to complacency by the Austro-Hungarian command in their defensive tactics and Brusilov's own genius at basically inventing the stormtrooper tactics and hurricane barrages the Germans would later adopt.

Arz von Straussenberg did a fine job holding off the Romanian offensive into Transylvania despite being massively outnumbered before the Germans arrived.

The most successful general was Svetozar von Boroevic, a self-described "Orthodox Croat" who took over command of the Isonzo Front at the start of the war with Italy. He pretty much cockblocked the Italians for ten battles, starting with the odds-and-ends of everything the Russian front wasn't devouring. He judged the local Slovenes and Croats would fight hard for their own land and that's exactly what happened.

The Serbian fiasco actually happened under Conrad's rival Oskar Potiorek so he's not to blame there.

>>3129704
Were there any notable military leaders from Austria-Hungary who went on to do other notable things after the Great War and the dissolution of Austria-Hungary?

>>3129762

Bohm-Ermolli, the commander of Second Army for pretty much the entire war, went on to be an honorary Field Marshal in WWII, becoming the only Field Marshal in both the KuK Armee and the Wehrmacht.

And of course Miklos Horthy, the last commander-in-chief of the Austro-Hungarian Navy, went on to become "Regent" of Hungary until 1944.

Aside from that uh well I guess Pilsudski was technically a military leader from Austria-Hungary...

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>tfw A-H is my countryfu
It just looks so perfect

>>3129473
OP yet again. (I ran out of Austro-Hungarian related pics)

Something that I don't know about is the other contemporary nation's reactions to Austria-Hungary coming to an end.
Where there some who praised it as an end to imperialism in the east? Or where there some who though it was some kind of end of a great era?
I just wanted to know, because there is a ton of things written about nations discussing Germany being gutted, but not other nations of the central powers.

>>3129871
The idea of people writing fondly of Austria-Hungary is a fairly modern one. History is said to be written by the winners, but more than that, history is written by people with agendas.

All of the Monarchy's successor states needed good founding myths, and so all of them portrayed the fall of the Habsburg Empire as a squarely good thing, and good riddance to it. The new nations played up how they'd either been totally trying to break free of Vienna the whole time or had selflessly tried to make the Empire work only to get dragged down by squabbling and self-centered fellow nationalities. This became more common as the new Central Europe progressed into its fairly awful 1920s and 1930s.

Western academia was also perfectly eager to roast the memory of Austria-Hungary, and shoo away any notion that conjuring a bunch of nation-states into existence from its corpse may have been hasty or, even worse, yet another terrible mistake made at the Paris Peace Conference.

Of course, even in its time, critics of Austria-Hungary's existence were never few. The Habsburg Monarchy was not a nation-state, and was thus aberrant to intellectuals on the right and left.

>>3129868

I seriously don't understand why they felt so threatened by Serbia that they thought they needed to completely destroy the country. I started listening to "A World Undone" today and it seems like Conrad was super-paranoid about Serbia for some reason.

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>>3129927
>The idea of people writing fondly of Austria-Hungary is a fairly modern one.
I'm certain that's true for almost every successor state except actual austria and maybe hungary. Pre-War Austria is often seen as an almost mythological place where everyone enjoyed peace and prosperity. Especially after WW2, the Vienna of pre-1914 was often celebrated in contemporary media. Unlike Germany, where everything related to Prussian Militarism had the sour aftertaste of defeat, the Habsburg Era is remembered very much fondly by Austrians, not as a time of dominance and power, but as a golden time where the people built beautiful monuments and made great works in every field.

It's more or less drifting out of public consciousness now, but the Austrian Film industry was basically founded on Nostalgic Sissi and Franz Joseph movies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAGgsjs4Yvk

>>3130041
Do you have the names of said films?
I would like to view them to see how they interpreted their old empire.

A question about AH. Why didn't it pursue an overseas empire, save for Tianjin in China it never really left Europe but seemed fully capable. Any reason why?

>>3130065
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Elisabeth_of_Austria#Film

there's a huge number of them and I know only a fraction by name, but the Sissi trilogy is a good way to start.

>>3130081
They wanted Balkan land not African land

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>>3130081
it never was a seafaring nation like Britain, Spain or Protugal, though America was conquered under Habsburg Rule.

Croatia had fishing communities but no major overseas harbors or even shipbuilding industry like England had. Even it's later Naval Power was only meant for Coastal Defence and power projection inside the Adriatic. Until Italy became an issue noone thought of needing a proper navy at all.

>>3130139
So what was the A-H navy like?
How big was it, did they have any major successes, or failures?
And what happened to it after the war?

>>3129560
>If the Empire dissolved into different nation-states for different peoples, where would the Jews go?
>Stage left: Enter the Zionists...

>>3130295
Small, but effective

Trashing the Italians during the Austro-Prussian War, also did effective raids and ground support during WW1

Sold off to other belligerents, none of the successors could afford them

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>>3130295
what >>3130378 said. It was universally well led for the rare occassions it actually saw action, and with heart. The future Dictator of Hungary, Miklos Horthy kept his rank of Admiral long after the dissolution of AH and the Navy, even though Hungary became landlocked.

And at the end of WW1 it fell apart quickly like most anything else. Most Ships were grounded for weeks or months when the war ended due to mutiny like circumstances in the multi ethnical navy.

>>3129473

> What would have been required for A-H to not become the logistical, and mismanaged mess it became during the great war?

Become a Federal Republic and enfranchise the other nationalities.

Not even joking.

>>3129473
It's fucked and nothing can save the habsburgs' relic state. Francis' II's decision to refocus on the crown lands instead of the HRE after Napoleon raped him was what truly killed the habsburgs. Austria was too weak to take on russian, conquer all the balkans and reestablish itself under the new auspices of a superpower along the eastern mediterranean and too strong to 'submit' as a German state under the king of prussia after getting destroyed in 1866. Thus, it surrendered to its own stagnation. And if history tells us one thing, a stagnating empire is not an empire that lasts the course of time.

>>3130581
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_Greater_Austria
USGA is what they needed, what the archduke had to offer if not for those pesky serbs

What books would you all recommend for learning more about the history of Austria Hungary? It feels like some monarchic early attempt at a regional European Union but i know there's more to it than that

Well since we talked a bit about the navy and army.
Did Austria-Hungary have a decent air force for the Great War?
Did they have their own aircraft or were they just using the German ones?

>>3131021
>Did they have their own aircraft or were they just using the German ones?
Fokker is a Dutch company

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>>3130742

It's not specifically about A-H but "The World Undone" starts out with a pretty substantial briefing on A-H just so that the reader can understand what the fuck is going on. In the introduction, the author says that he believes that most books on the Great War make the mistake of assuming that their reader knows all the basic geography and history of Europe, and for his book he wanted to specifically write for a 21st century audience which probably doesn't know much about the politics of the early 20th century. I'm not too deep in it yet, but it seems very good so far.

>>3131021
AH had one of, if not the first Air Force in the entire world, founded in 1892 and originally operating balloons. By 1909 and 1910 it had been fully transformed into an actual airforce using aeroplanes exclusively, and the first military airbase in Europe at Wiener Neustadt.
Austria had a decent aircraft industry for the time and a couple pioneer aircraft designers, but also built some very successful models like the German Albatross in license.

>>3130742
refer to
>>3129406

For a fun but disgustingly Habsburgaboo read, try For God and Kaiser. For a good analysis of Austria in the war, read Ring of Steel.

>>3130005
Because Serbians are hyper-nationalistic retards with a boner for revanchism on lands that they never held but view as "Serbian" even though the people there are either different kinds of South Slavs (Croats, Bulgarians), Half-Slavic (Macedonians, Slovenians), or not Slavs at all (Albanians, Greeks).

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>>3128854

Why didn't Germany and Austria-Hungary just unite into a single super-country called Germany-Austria-Hungary?

>>3131206
I know that it's bait, but that's because the Hohenzollerns would never submit to the Habsburgs (again) and vice-versa.

Also, Austria(-Hungary) forming Großgermany while retaining Transleithania and Illyria would have almost certainly lead to war with Britain, France, Russia, and basically all of continental Europe.

>>3131218

It's wasn't really bait, more of a dumb joke, but thanks for the informative reply anyway.

>>3131235
It's hard to tell bait from actual humor at this point.

And you're welcome.

The real question is why didn't all of the Central Powers unite into Germany-Austria-Hungary-Turkey-Levant-Iraq-Bulgaria?

>>3131246
because turkey smells

>>3131254
>because turkey smells
>GOOD

>>3131246
Can someone draw this on a map?

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>>3131265
Sorry it's so shitty.

>>3131265
More importantly, can someone mock up a flag?

>>3131457
...please inform me what the flag looks like.

>>3131469
>>3131470
Uhh, maybe, I'm not great with graphical shit, I hope someone better at it sees this.

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>>3131457
The little dots of white was bugging me so I cleaned it up a bit.

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>>3131512
FUCK. I missed a bit in east Prussia

>>3131517
Would the Great War have ended sooner or later had the enemy been this monstrosity and not just the Central Powers?

>>3131536
considering they ended the war as a string of German satellites being controlled and financed from Berlin, it likely would've ended around the same time.

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>>3131547
>Implying the capital wouldn't have been Vienna
Also here's the monstrosity of a flag.

>>3130005
part of it is the habsburg elites intense distrust of their own subjects, particularly the slavs. they just assumed that the croats/slovenes and inhabitants of bosnia would want to unite with the serbs because they were all south slavs. the reality was they were fairly far apart, and the croats and slovenes were two of the more loyal subject peoples the habsburgs had. they only opted for yugoslavia when the empire fell apart and they saw their choices as serbian or italian domination, and went with serbian. being that the empire's fall was caused by the austrians being hell-bent on destroying serbia, they ironically meme'd yugoslavia into existence.

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>>3131553
It's like I'm staring into some kind of alien landscape.

>>3131560
It gets worse anon.
>What would the monarch be called?

>>3131562
I'm scared.
I'm very scared now.

>>3131569
What's there to be scared of? You have nothing to fear from the Kaiser-Kaiser-King-Sultan-Tsar-King-King.

>>3131578
If you're loyal.

>>3131553
>>3131578
...how the fuck would the government work?

>>3131595
Like Austria-Hungary but with a shitload more constituents. The German federal monarchies, the Ottoman constituent states, Bulgaria.

>>3131595

They rotate through power year by year. It's actually a great system. You have to work for a year straight but then you get 6 years off after that.

It was hopelessly multicultural and the union was unsustainable
And there was the sl*v unity autism

>>3131607

Hey now, it's the current year, multiculturalism is strength, not a weakness. (yes, this is bait)

>>3131638
Multiculturalism was actually a strength back then for the Austrians.

It's just a shame that one of those cultures was Hungarian.

>>3131649
in WW1 it became more of a weakness due to difficult communications and dissidence.
In everything but lefty dreamland multiculturalism becomes a burden and doesn't withstand any sort of internal or external pressure.
It's basicall a waterboiler made of paper and wishful thinking.

russian interest in balkans
french interest in an isolated germany

Austria is hilarious.

Everyone in Europe was memeing about how Ottomans were the "weak man of Europe." But then during WW1 they actually kicked some ass against a superior foe.

On the other hand, the Austrians had to constantly be bailed out by Germans.

>>3132419
Turks have been pretty good at war historically. AH was pretty cocky which makes it more funny that they almost got beaten by Serbia.

>>3132437
>beaten
it was pushed back out of Serbia after a
failed offensive, but at no point in the war was Serbia in any position to "beat" AH. Also people seem to conveniently forget that most of the forces were occupied in Russia.

>>3131578

How about we call him, Holy Roman Emperor for shorts?

Also, why didn't Austria-Hungary turn into Germany-Hungary? I know the Germans wanted the Austrian to drop the other half of the crown, but what about a different dual monarchy?

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>>3128854
I'll just leave this here

>>3132616
habsburgs vs hohenzollerns as previous anon said

>>3132717

Why they couldn't just marry up? I know interests are a thing, but some concecions must be made, or the no concessions side won and this is why they all imploded?

>>3132419

The Turks at Gallipolli where under German command which had reorganised their defenses. But it's generally easier to "kick ass" in a situation where your opponent is attacking your fortified positions from the sea. The Ottomans got their ass kicked by Russia and were in need of help from the Central Powers in the Middle East.

>>3132743
austria lost a war against prussia, thats why the whole germany thing could happen, austrians were quite butthurt about it for a long time

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>>3129406
>Moravia found a sort of comfy compromise between Czechs and Germans because they were roughly equal halves of the population there.

No, Germans made up a smaller proportion of the population in Moravia than in Bohemia. But they choose to arrange the compromise at a time when they still had the majority in the local assembly (universal suffrage wasn't established yet). The Germans in Bohemia aparently failed to do this.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4959110/

>>3132906
>austrians were quite butthurt about it for a long time
not for too long, 4 years after Königgrätz the Emperor already ruled out an alliance with france, not wanting more pointless bloodshed between the german people.

>>3129385
>Woodrow Wilson
Bratislava > Wilsonovo mesto

>>3131473
Ill ask /gsg/'s AFP guy

>>3130005
Serbia was actively propagating a south slavic state for a long time, and that threatened AHs structural integrity.

>totally non-probably alternate history

kill you'reselves

>>3133481
They bullied me

>>3133526
It's okay, anon. We still like you.

>>3130648
Prussia had since become strong enough to eclipse the habspurgs. Remember they conquered Silesia long before a French emperor crossed the Rhine

>>3132717
What anout a tudor style dynasty united through Marriage?
Rules by the mighty Osmanoglu Hogenburg, the Kaisultanatedom of Germany, Austria, Bulgaria, and Ottomania

>>3129319
why did you post the edited one?

Okay, if some how Austria-Hungary was to survive the Great War and not be split up entirely. (say sort of how Germany had to give up land to the french, along with it's colonies, and give up it's eastern land to the newly founded Poland.)
What would it have been like going into the 20s, 30s, and beyond?

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>>3134021
civil war either way. It would survive only if there was no WW1.

Maybe a minor conflict in the Balkans could have strengthened the AH position. But it'S doubtful, 10s through 40s were a shitty time.

>>3134125
Then let's do a different question.
If Franz Josef was to live another few years, (say, to 1920) would that have been enough stability to allow the empire to survive the war?
Or would it have just given him a bad name in the eyes of the soon to be successor states that came afterwards?

>>3128854
Czech history student here.
Main reason was, like others said, nationalism, but even without that, A-H was economically fucked ever since Napoleonic wars.

Industrial revolution and its various parts usually got here with hundred years delay after Britain and others. Theoretically, we were still agricultural empire at the end of 19th century (because of Hungary). There was the lack of colonies to expand into, and therefor lack of global empire, and lack of resources to be able to compete with other great powers in terms of production. While other nations were switching to free trade, it was still majorly restricted and import was limited, just to make our own products able of competition at least on the home market. And since we got no money, we couldn't afford any army and had twice less than any other great power. We were so shit, that one day we got bankrupt and started the world's first economical crisis just because it started raining unexpectedly.

>>3134223
>We were so shit, that one day we got bankrupt and started the world's first economical crisis just because it started raining unexpectedly.
Can you go into this?
I've never heard of this happening.

>>3134254
Well that was kind of a joke, the crisis of 1873 was of course a long term issue, but the rain was the trigger.

There was supposed to be an industrial exposition in Vienna in 1873, and since that was significant event at that time, the city was preparing for it with buying various stuff to sell to the expected visitors and since they needed money to buy that stuff, they took loans from Austrian and German banks. And then, when the expo happened, it started raining and nearly the expected amount of visitors arrived. People suddenly made no money to pay back loans, banks lost their investments, and Viennese Stock Exchange crashed, triggering the crisis.

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>>3134223
>Industrial revolution and its various parts usually got here with hundred years delay
that is actually just wrong. Austria was on point with Railroad construction and Industrialisation, contributing many inventions and technological breakthroughs to the global community. (invention of the gas mantle in 1880, modern lightbulb in 1902, the Kaplan Turbine, just to name a few) and hab many breakthroughs in Train designs and mountain railroad construction, finishing construction of the first actual mountain railway in 1854.

Other than that AH was rather well industrialized in some parts, but the Hungarian part of the Empire refused Industrialisation vehemently.

What it lacked was the Trade and Traffic Network Britain and other Colonial Powers had, so everything had to be built from scatch, but it still did rather well. Altough not compareable to the Industrial Giants like Germany and Britain, it was well on it's way. Most Industry collapsed only after the war, altough the Czechs were able to reconfigurate a lot of their existing Industry.

>>3134307
So what was though to be low risk but expensive investments turned out to be nothing but a loss for the Viennese investors and business men?

>>3134313
I'll give you the railways, but other than that, all the inventions and industrial advancement happened only at the end of nineteenth century, when Britain was fully industrialized. And even after the (partial, slow and very costly) industrialization, we still lacked the basic resources to put the machines to proper use, since we got no colonies except the Balkans.

>>3134356
>we still lacked the basic resources to put the machines to proper use
Meaning we had only few products that could compete with other western products.

>>3134223
>2nd largest economic growth for a european country prior to ww2
>"economically fucked"

Lets set something straight, the straight up use of 'nationalism' as the reason in this thread is very simplistic and screams, "I've played paradox games but never read a book"
Please read some literature, i'd suggest "A Habsburg empire", by peter judson
First, the traditional story of "Habsburg decline" as some sort of inevitability is easily traceable to British propagandists writing after the First World War. Henry Steed, Robert Seton-Watson and Lewis Namier all contributed greatly to the trope, which has lasted to this day, that the Habsburg Empire was some medieval, clunky anachronism that was doomed to fail. John Deak, a Habsburg revisionist, writes: "Steed combined the two ideas that he and his fellow British war propagandists had promulgated during the war: on the one hand, that the decline of the Habsburg monarchy was inevitable and the war merely hastened the process, and, on the other, that the war and the collapse of the Habsburg monarchy liberated its subjugate peoples from this antimodern polity." These two ideas are not entirely accurate and do a great disservice to the historiography of Central Europe under the Habsburgs.
The proponents and widespread support of the empire that transcended nationalist politics came down to two factors: economic arguements for empire, in which the east and south were developed and received infrustructure and government spending, while the Cisleithanian half received consumers for their growing industrial output.
The second component was habsburg legitimacy in goverment. This transcended nationalist politics, to the point where up until 1918 czech nationalists for example argued for a renegotiated place in the empire, not independence from it. This legitimacy also transcended social classes.

continuing

>>3129385
>mass executions of Croats, Slovenians and Ukrainians as potential traitors
I'll need a source for that

>>3131189
>even though the people there are either different kinds of South Slavs (Croats, Bulgarians), Half-Slavic (Macedonians, Slovenians)
I will agree with you that the Greater Serbian idea encompassed lands where Serbs were not a majority but this line is a bit dodgy.

>>3134368
Continued

The poorer classes in Galicia for example were much more supportive of the vienna government and the emperor then their local nationalists, due to numerous reforms from the top the improved their lives socially and economically.

Where this habsburg legitimacy came undone was during the war. Food production in 1918 was at 40% of its pre war levels, with half rations being in place across all urban centres consistently not being met. Some in this thread have stated that the death of franz joseph also took a considerable toll on this legitimacy, however this is is vastly overstated. Ultimately the primary function for any state is to provide for its citizens, and this was not met leading to widespread ration based strikes crippling the war industry throughout 1918.

TLDR:
While nationalistic mass politics did cripple the regional diets and both parliaments of the empire, the prewar decades were some of austria hungary's finest, with as i mentioned earlier unprecedented growth rates. Habsburg legitimacy and the economic benefits of empire preceded all nationalist claims to the point where nationalism only argued for a renegotiated place in the empire rather then removal from it. However, the legitimacy of the state plunged during the war years due to a severe lack of food production, leading to the empires dissolution in 1918, (this was not a dissolution forced by the allied governments, regional governments were largely in place before the treaties of sainte germaine and trinanon). Blind 'nationalism' has been utilised as the primary tool of the empires dissolution both for the legitimacy of it's successoor states and for the justification for its dissolution by the allied powers, however nationalism in no was not a ticking time bomb for the state and without major war a highly federated central European state could exist even today
Please read the book i mentioned in the last post, it was a great introduction to the topic

>>3134439
I actually just ordered it while you were writing the second post.
I hope it's as good of a read as you said it is.

>>3134491
its really good anon, it's what sparked my interest in the area.
If you are the type of guy that likes the grand politics and foreign policy you may be disappointed as it only touches on these topics when it affects the main focus of the book, the social, economic and internal politics of the empire.

>>3134368
>>3134439
difficult to find well read people on /his/ who aren't just repeating war time propaganda as established fact. like >>3134382's question, are sourced directly from Entente Propaganda leaflets.

>>3134664
>sourced directly from Entente Propaganda leaflets.
Could you go further into that?
I'd love to hear more about how this misinformation came about.

>>3134694
theguy above already mentioned it, most misinformation about the fall and circumstances of later AH was created by Propagandists and Saboteurs, and the successor states often afapted this narrative 1:1 into their new curriculum to give themselves legitimacy to the new generation. It doesn't sound as far fetched when you consider that most successor states still had massive pro-monarchy factions, and the entire Officer corps had been sworn in to the Emperor, not their individual Nation, making them making up the majority of the new Militaries officers. Especially in foreign takeovers like Yugoslavia, where Belgrade had to establish dominion over vast areas that had been part of the empire for centuries, they had to push the idea to the new generation that "everything is much better now and everything was horrible before".

>>3134664
In a way he is correct
The cisleithanian parliament was dissolved in the leadup to war and replaced by a military led government which removed and violated many civil liberties, for the serbian minorities in particular who were suspected of aiding the enemy. While the transleithanian parliment was keep intact, it too persecuted serbian and ukrainian minorities in the first few months of the war in particular. When charles reconvened the parliament on his coronation in 1916 and civilian government returned, rights for all citizens especially the minorities were normalised. In terms of mass executions though this anon is talking out of his ass, all actions were taken on an individual level except for the forced relocation of communities in the frontline to refugee camps

>>3134747
well that's what I was talking about. also the only large numbers of executions that occurred were in occupied Serbia. And those, big surprise were often conducted by other balkanites, meaning mostly Croats.

>>3130742
the world of yesterday by Stefan Zweig. Pretty good read. It spans the last years of the 19th century, and the first half of the 20th century until 1941 for reasons that would spoil the aftertaste of the book. I'd suggest reading it first, and then taking a look at the author's biography up until that year.

>>3134223
Other countries had to expand colonies for lack of natural resources.. it's hard to point out a resource that A-H lacked access too.. maybe cotton for the textile industry, but there was a crash in cotton prices in the southern US so there was a global gut which meant they had access to cotton on the market.

>>3129251
So basically Austria-Hungary would've been better if it stayed as just Austria?

>>3130139
While the big deal of spanish conquering was under Habsburgs, the start of the conquest was under the Trastamara.

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>>3135175
That, or the Danubian Federation or United States of Greater Austria as touched on earlier in the thread.

>>3135342
Let me guess.
The reasons those things didn't happen was because of Hungary fucking everything up again.
Am I correct in this assumption?

>>3132616
Holy Roman Emperor of the Abrahamic Faith Undivided ;^)

>>3134223
good to see they still teach commie butthurt in pepikland, fucking kys

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>>3128854
their uniform was too fashionable in 1914 and it triggered the ententes autism.

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>>3137394
STRAIGHT
PULL
RIFLES
ARE
NOT
NATURAL

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>3131206
>Germany-Austria-Hungary
that would just be Germany-Hungary

>>3134223
>>3134313
Thats just so wrong, yes Hungary was agriculture centered but by the 1900s Hungary too built up a very sizeable industry, had one of the largest milling industry in the world, many large electrical, mechanical and chemical concerns like Ganz which built everythinig from trams to turbines, generators and battleships, or the Weiss Works which by the end of the war was the largest ammunition and artillery supplier of the army.

The rate of industrialization is very apparent from the share of factory workers, growing from 12% in 1870 to 26% in 1910 (Western countries had 30-40% at time so Hungary wasn't lagging behind much).

Even more telling is the estimated GDP per capita, which was about 65% of Austria's by 1910.

>>3137590
not to mention there were internal tax borders to protect pepik and austrian industry from competition within the empire

>>3129268
>tfw hungarians deserve Trianon

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>>3129268
>>3137682
>Spend your entire (reborn) national existence trying to undermine your Empire & Emperor
>"Haha, we've finally lost! Time for some sweet, sweet independence!"
>Lose 70% of your territory

Karma's a bitch, eh?

>>3135989

It is correct that Hungary systematicalyl declined the wish for rights for other minorities in the empire, while Vienna was for more willing to do so.

>>3137820
>Lose 70% of your territory
>your

Much of the land that Hungary lost in the treaty of Trianon was never Hungarian in the first place. You never see Austrians bitching about how unjust St. Germain-en-Laye was, because they lost Croatia and Bohemia. For some fucking reason, the Hungarians thought they could raise claims on the entire transleithanian half of the empire, which was just stupid.

>>3135989
No, stop memeing you tard. The idea of a federation was very circumstantial at the time and wasn't a metter of serious discussion.

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>>3137881
Define >never Hungarian

Practically all that land was part of the Hungarian Kingdom since its founding which was the basis of Hungary's claim (but saying claim is stupid as no one contested it before WW1).


To add more Hungary primarily wanted the Hungarian lands back, which is exactly what happened before and during World War 2.


And no Austria bitched lot about St. Germaine in the interwar period. The reason you dont see that today is because expect Sud-Tyrol (where they enjoy very wide rights) Germans got deported away after WW2, while Hungarians weren't and theres still 2+ million of them living in Romania, Slovakia, Ukraine and Serbia.

>be Hungarian
>live on border
>visit town across border
>everyone understands me

wow real fair treaty guys

>>3138000
yeah, that's why the treaties didn't last long. except Lausanne. that was different.

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>>3137425
oh well

>>3128854
treating Slavs as second-class citizens

>>3138644
where is your source on that BS? The Yugoslav Party Manifesto?

>>3128854
Difficult question to answer.
As many anoins already said, the Hungarian side of the monarchy didn't like other minorities getting more rights.
Thing is, they weren't the only ones who opposed emancipation of all ethnic groups.
The german part of Austria even then had quite supremacist views and saw them as the rightful Übermenschen of the Empire.
While they were a small group in the western part of AH, they were influental.

I think the situation even after the end of the World War was salvagable. Even hardcore revanchist on the entente side knew, that leaving germany as the sole big power in central Europe was asking for trouble.
Instead of backing every single nationality in the empire, there should have been serious efforts to keep the bulk of the empire intact.
But Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

>>3137394
>Implying French 1914 uniforms weren't /fa/ as fuck

Was the destruction of Austria-Hungary the destruction of European civilization?

>>3138934
No, but it was the destruction of one of the old powers of Europe.

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>>3138738
>implying

>>3138971
>Greek center of civilization destroyed by roaches
>French center of civilization destroyed in the Revolution
>Russian center of civilization destroyed in the Revolution

After Austria was destroyed all that was left were perfidious Brits and Autistic Prussians. Truly a terrible state of things.

>>3139031
And then the Prussians were gutted twice, and the Brits gave up 95% of their empire.
Who does that even leave anymore?

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>>3129319
>He had to be carried away from his desk the night he died
>Before being given last rites, he complained "I still have work to do! Wake me up tomorrow at half past three"

>>3131595
Slightly better than the government of the German Empire

>>3139031
>Greek center of civilization destroyed by roaches
surely you meant by Venetians

>>3129360
I'll never understand the Czech mindset of the early 20th century
>have the highest living standards of any slavic population on earth
>have more democratic representation than any slavs on earth
>third largest ethnic group in the empire, giving them quite some political leverage
>STILL drink the vatnik Kool-Aid about pan slavism even though all the "glorious slav nations" are dirt poor shitholes
pepiks never learn

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>>3139699
Give me a source for this, anon.
I want to know if the feels I'm feeling are real.

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>>3140612
A true diamond dog

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>>3141502

>>3140612
The book >>3141502 posted is where I read it. It gives a bit of background on Franz Josef's life. Shit is retardedly depressing

>Father abdicates in 1848
>Assume throne at 18, welcomed as a fresh start for the Empire
>Have a wife you love, end up having a bunch of kids with her
>Contract syphilis while losing a campaign in Italy
>Give it to wife, sterilizing her and destorying your marriage
>Brother gets killed trying to rule mexico
>Son goes crazy and kills himself
>Wife gets stabbed by an Italian Anarchist who didn't even want to kill her, she was just the closest available target
>Spend almost every waking hour for 69 years managing your country
>Despite your hard work your country loses all its power and prestige
>You don't even LIKE Franz Ferdinand, but your country goes to war to avenge him
>Get sick
>Keep working
>Die

Later in life, people would congratulate him on birthdays, and he would reflect on how everyone he loved was dead and how he wished he would just die already.

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>>3141645
>While working in his study at the Hofburg Palace in Vienna, the Emperor was brought the news that the Empress Elisabeth had been assassinated in Geneva by a deranged Italian anarchist, Luigi Luchini. The murderer had stabbed her through the breast with a stilleto, penetrating 85 mm, all the way into the left ventricle of her heart. She was dead within a half hour of sustaining the wound. A telegram announcing the tragic news was brought to the emperor by Count Eduard Graf von Paar.

>Franz Josef is said to have been frozen for a moment in shock, than as he slumped into his armchair said, “I shall then be spared nothing on this earth.” These words were likely a reference to what he had already experienced with the suicide of Rudolf. Sentimentally his next words were, “Nobody knows how much we loved each other.” The news was the completion of a tragedy, losing both son and wife. The stoicism of the emperor sustained him in the years to come, but it is doubtful that he ever overcame the deep sorrow which consumed him.

>>3139804
>everything is about money and materialism
>people 100 years ago had the same servile money driven mentality me and people around me today do

im not arguing whether being part of the empire was good or bad for them, im just saying you need to stick your modernist mentality up your ass

>>3141834
>living standards are only about money
Czech plebs had rights, opportunity, security and dignity, that was more than a serf in Russia had, or a mudpie baker in Macedonia.

A Czech of every social standing was free to settle anywhere in the empire and create his own business, many did, Skóda even became a favored son of the empires arms industry. The only thing they lacked was self determination, which pan slavists couldn't have expected anyway with 180 million other slavs, all of which are worse off than your average czech in every way, can simply overrule through mob power. Though they did get a taste of panslavic friendship in 1919 and 1968, so there's that.

slavshits should have been germanized and magyarized as their commie propaganda suggest to this day

>>3137394
Josuke?

>>3128859
>>3128863
>>3128866
Wrong. There were nationalist currents in A-H but they weren't the reason why the empire collapsed.