Why is Punishment almost always chosen over Rehabilitation?

Why would you attempt to get someone to change their ways when you can simply kill or imprison them thus removing the problem from society?
Chinks went a step further and massacred 3 generations if someone committed a crime of a high enough tier.

Rehabilitation is harder and doesn't work

If someone killed someone you love would you think "I think I can change the murderer to be good" or "This bastard needs to die and die horribly!"

>>3114330
>This person harmed me,
>I should give him free stuff in the hopes he'll change his ways.

>>3114497
It can work with the right processes, but no one has that patience.

Problems is if a person fucks up and there's no mercy or redemption option then the person will have no choice but to remain a criminal even if he had no criminal intent before.

>>3114330

Its what Chimps do when they are angry. They don't people chimp criminals and chimp jail. They tear their dick off.

Also there was a guy who had a pet Chimp and gave it ot a zoo, but he would come and give it gifts. Another chimp got mad out of jealousy, got out of chimp pen, and ripped man's penis off.

Looking at google for the story and can't really find it but there are lots of videos and stories about chimps ripping men's penis off.

>>3114516
Depends on the person. But I would say, as cliche as it sounds, remember that killing said person will not bring your loved one back.

>>3114554
Yeah but it will give closure. Sort of a "why does my love one die but his/her killer runs free?" thing.

>>3114558
No it doesn't. You loved on will never speak to you, hug you, or be alive in your presence again. Whether some killer lives and dies will not change that. It will just make 1 more life lost.

>>3114580
A life that would take away more people's loved ones.

File: Foucault get a load of this guy.jpg (75KB, 512x512px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 512x512px

>>3114330
Social orthopedy, that's the only fucking thing that society really needs.

>>3114484
-Waste tax money to fill prisons.
-Deplete much needed human resources.
-Their "crime" was a mere misdemeanor that's really more about getting people to respect/obey the law than any violent and destructive crime.
-Draconian punishments can spiral to the point when any and every citizen can have fear being brutally killed by their governments, even the ones that are not supposed to.
-Creates a crime and punishment culture that makes the citizens paranoid and disregard much needed information and slowly saps away civil motivation causing society to decline (law enforcement is made to prevent shit like that).

>>3114516
I'd want to watch that person die but I'd know it'd probably be better overall if I forgave them and they were kept in custody but not tortured.

>>3114635
That's the liberal way to view it. Turns out the most productive societies have always been the most well behaved societies.

>>3114649
That spot is something people who studied and trained in criminology have seen time an time again though it's basically fact.

>>3114497
It does work though because the payoff is worth it in the long run and it doesn't cost a fuckton in the long run.

>>3114649
Yeah but how do you make the societies "well behaved" is the problem.

>>3114707
You kill or exile all the people who don't behave.

>>3114720
That leads to a lot of issues though.

>>3114516
>we should act based on revenge and bloodthirst!
>we should let our emotions dictate our system of law
The first step towards starting a discussion is being impartial and impersonal. You failed.

>>3114723
Which are all solvable by more killing.

>>3114728
Yeah but that emotion is what causes people to choose punishment over rehab.

>>3114602
You have a point there but now it's pretty defeatist. Why can't the person be rehabilited to a better person?

>>3114330

For most of history, you didn't really have "prison" for most crimes. Minor crimes would be punished by fines (for the upper class) or corporate punishment like beating/whipping/pillory/etc (for the lower class). Major crimes were punished by death or exile. Long-term imprisonment was a very rare thing (although "exile" could sometimes be tantamount to imprisonment if you were sent to a remote wasteland).

>>3114720
Middle Eastern countries kept doing that and all they get is terrorists and accusations of barbarism for their troubles.

More flies with honey than vinegar.

>>3114733
This sounds like the perspective of a fourteen year old who does not understand people.

>>3114733
>Kill people left and right
>Economy slows down due to lack of people
>People go into poverty due to the stagnation
>Those in poverty turn to crime
>Kill those people
>Economy slows down even more
>More people go into poverty

Repeat until your society is destroyed.

>>3114580
If I were murdered I would like for my loved ones to kill my murderer in return.

>>3114745
corporate punishment

>>3114330
Because people desire "justice" (read: retribution) for losess suffered, and setting someone back on the path to success does not deliver like destroying their lives .

On the other hand rehabilitation is hit and miss at best

>>3114885
No it isn't rehabilitation programs have worked in the past a lot. The reason it was abandoned was because some politicians mistook a study and interpreted it as "rehabilitation doesn't work".

>>3114330
It's more immediate and the effects are more obvious than rehabilitation. Why waste time and resources when you could have the instant gratification of punishing the wrongdoer?

The average criminal has no desire to be rehabilitated. You can't change someone who isn't willing to change themselves.
It also would reduce the barriers to crime. If the penalty is 2 years in prison im not doing it, no matter what. If the penalty is 2 years in rehab I'd give it some more thought, if I could gain much from getting away with it.

>>3115032
If they are a sociopath, yes. If not, there is a good chance with effective rehabilitation strategies.
The key is just screen for sociopaths.

>>3115050
>screen for sociopaths
That ain't easy.

>>3115032
Actually the average criminal does have a desire since most of the times they did their crimes out of mistake or desperation (they're petty thieves more then they are mobsters/serial killers).

Though the minority of criminals that don't want to are still worrisome.

File: faggot.jpg (189KB, 1200x1500px) Image search: [Google]

189KB, 1200x1500px

>>3114330
Because those who enforce the law are no better than criminals themselves. Besides, why rehabilitate someone into society when you have already taken their worldly assets by means of civil forfeiture? Might as well deprive them of voting rights so they can't repeal the laws that enriched you.

>>3114858
grow up

>>3115032
Noone sets out to do evil. Crimes are either the product of need, desperation or greed. Few people WANT to be criminals, they just want something and are willing to become criminals in order to get it.

>>3114747
>More flies with honey than vinegar.
The whole point is to lure the flies in to kill them though not to rehabilitate them, don't forget that.

>>3115221
Grow a spine.

1. cost
2. no cohesive practice
3. reliability

Cost is the big one, incarceration is cheaper so you have to look at if the benefits offered by rehabilitation are worth the additional cost. For that you have to see the success rate in rehab for preventing recidivism compared to incarceration. Incarceration is not very good at deterring recidivism, that bar is pretty low, but rehab is held back by a lack of cohesive practice which makes proving whether it's more reliable extremely difficult. Because you could be comparing several different rehab methodologies against a more or less cohesive system of imprisonment. Countries vary in their standards for incarceration but there tends to exist A standard at least under a given authority. The same cannot be said of rehabilitation, it varies depending on the institution and the people running the programs. It just complicates the decision that much more.

So the result is prison remains the default for criminals, until a unified theory of rehabilitation becomes standard and has proven to DRAMATICALLY reduce recidivism, it wont' be more appealing than prison.

>>3114330
Punishment is primal. Rehabilitation is educated.

Anyone can punish another, even a baby. Rehabilitation is proposed only in educated nations because they understand the nature of crime is often due to necessity in life or failures in life or making mistakes or due to health conditions. All of those are fixable.

Even the so called pure psycopaths are fixable if given proper avenue and taught in controlled environment.

>>3115076
And psychopaths.
Even then, there is some practice of just giving some psychiatrist medication to help a bit.

>>3115284
With medication and massive behavioral therapy...I don't think the cost would be worth it. Tbh, I think we would have to agree that they are just genetic duds that may need to be trashed...
Luckily, antisocial personality disorder is pretty rare.

>>3114484
It's actually more cost effective to turn a liability into an asset than it is to waste it away in a prison or pay to have it killed.

>>3115284
>because they understand the nature of crime is often due to necessity in life or failures in life or making mistakes or due to health conditions
I am a firm believer in the potential for rehabilitation but this is just naive. Most criminals choose to be criminals. 99% of the time nothing forces them into it. For every sob story of a guy who had to steal to put food on the table for grandma or whatever there's 1000 thugs who grew up idolizing gang-bangers and couldn't wait to drop out of school to be just like them. Most criminals are uneducated and don't want to be educated. They revel in their ignorance and see nothing wrong with their lifestyle. To rehabilitate such a person you have to fundamentally alter their worldview and instill the values that should have been there when they were a child. You can't control what conditions people are born into, but with enough effort you can drag them into the light of decent society and make them worthy of it.

>>3114330

is rehabilitation honestly even a deterrent? if people thought they wouldn't get punished, and would only have to go to comfy rehab, it seems like they would be MORE likely to commit crimes

>>3115319
The cost of not doing that is rampant crime problem and expensive jail systems with high recidivism. US jail is the most expensive per capita out of all and its a failure to reform.

>>3115333
So put those gang bangers through school. Teach them trade skills.

They will then use that skill to make money and then on have an incentive to keep working.

>>3115334
Except that's demonstratably false. Countries that focus their penal systems around rehabilitation show less recitivism rates than countries that don't.

Why? Because most crimes are crimes of necessity, by people with substance abuse, and by the mentally ill.

Instead of attempting to solve crime as the problem and instead as a symptom of a deeper problem, which it mostly is, you reduce crime.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBHcut1Ux-4
US is doing some experimental rehabilitation methods.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiw2NULDjKM
However the Japanese method is more superior. Simply because its not just boot-camp, but also teaching skills and breaks down the person's mental barriers.

>>3115344
>So put those gang bangers through school. Teach them trade skills.
What part of
>they don't want to be educated
Did you not get? They spurn attempts to educate them. Most of them drop out before completing high school, some even earlier. That's how little they value education. They lack the proper values system because they grow in in areas infested with other criminals and that is all they aspire to be. You can say "well just get them out of that environment" but that's a problem social welfare has been trying to fix for over 100 years with pretty much zero success. If you find a solution please contact the United States Department of Health and Human Services and then standby to receive your Nobel Peace Prize.

Before you can educate them you have to get them to value education and see the benefits of living an honest life in decent society. Most of them don't, so they see no reason to stop being a thug.

>>3115364
Wrong video
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBd5WhTi_CI

>be law abiding person
>work hard to undergo training and build a career at great personal expense
>invest countless hours and money into starting a family

>some slacker does none of those things
>finds himself short on cash so he robs a liquor store
>while fleeing from the police his car crashes into yours killing your entire family, leaving you partially crippled and incapable of doing the work you trained yourself to do

>Instead of imprisoning or killing this piece of human waste the "justice" system "rehabilitates" him by giving him the same training you had to go into debt to get, for free
>After completing his "rehabilitation" he takes the job you just got fired from
>as recompense for your loss he gives you a "heartfelt" apology and offers to shake your hand

This is justice to the overly socialized.

>>3115365
American social welfare is woefully incompetent at best and intentionally made worse by some states due to political ideological differences.

Better examples are states like Nordic countries where social welfare is done in correct way as well as rehabilitation system.

Teaching can be done to anyone unless they're blind, deaf, mute, and disabled. There are plenty of methods of breakdown these tough guy personas who claim to be a thug. And we know this because America excels in it or knows someone who excels in it.

>>3115373
From a societal point of view every person is more valuable as a contributing member of society than as a non-productive body that has to be fed, housed, and clothed on tax payer dollars. Rehabilitation makes sense in that the cost of rehabilitating is eventually repaid in what that person produces as a contributing member of society. He can never undo what he did, but he can at least work towards making up for it by contributing to society.

The urge to punish and take vengeance is only to satisfy an emotional response and doesn't provide real tangible benefit to anyone.

>>3115390
Muh feelings man. What about MUH FEELINGS.

>>3115390
>From a societal point of view every person is more valuable as a contributing member of society than as a non-productive body that has to be fed
There is no "societal point of view", if you mean utilitarian then say utilitarian instead of just spewing rubbish.

>itt Americans believe they can opine on penal systems when they have one of the most expensive and least effective in the world while incarcerating the most people in the world.

Lel at least get it right before you decide to talk shit.

>>3115394
I do not disparage the feelings of the victims or the bereaved in the case of murder, I simply disparage using the entire justice system as an instrument of closure or vengeance. Vengeance is best exacted in civil courts where feelings are routinely translated into dollar values. Money can't undo the past either but it sure makes life easier.

>>3114747
More flies with shit than honey

>>3115403
>There is no "societal point of view"
There is if you live in an actual nation and not a remote desert island. The whole concept of prison exists to satisfy a societal need, which is to remove dangerous/unlawful people from the general population. The ideal is that they reflect on what they did while in prison and then during parole hearings they have a chance to show contrition and their reformation, the parole procedure was created to give people who sincerely want to do better a chance to make good on that intention, their sentence is cut short because its only purpose is to keep them out of the general population as long as they are harmful to the function of society.

Rehabilitation is a more active approach to this, rather than just leaving reform up to the criminal it puts them into a program which actively tries to mold them into a productive citizen. Because that's really the ideal goal of prison made into a more realizable form.

>>3115365
Oh common now this is just ignorant. Many of them do out of highschool because they are poor and don't see the point and their education system is shit. They just need to steer in the right direction early on. Hence why juvie even exist in the first place, it is the prime example of the importance of rehabilitation as a focus.

>>3115390
>He can never undo what he did, but he can at least work towards making up for it by contributing to society.
and that out-weighs the fact that it creates a system that incentives criminal behavior while de-incentivizing responsible productive behavior how exactly?\

When you offer free training to criminals, while insisting law abiding citizens pay for it, the law-abiding will inevitably stop ask themselves why they're bothering to follow the law when they stand to gain more, at a lower cost, by breaking it.

>Just make the training free for everyone, law-abiding and criminal alike!
There's no such thing as free. The law-abiding will still pay for it through their taxes, while the criminal evades taxes and continues to have access to the "free" training the law-abiding citizens pay for.

>>3115373
You also get monetary compensation so it's not an total loss dude.

>>3115383
>Better examples are states like Nordic countries where social welfare is done in correct way as well as rehabilitation system
Countries which are homogeneous and have very little crime to begin with do not make very good test cases for correctional systems. America's crime rates have actually gone down significantly over the last 2 decades, but there are many contributing factors to this besides just how prison works. I'd say America, due to having such a high crime rate for a first world nation, is perhaps the most ideal test subject for experimental correctional techniques. It has the largest prison population on the planet after all.

>>3115467
>incentivizes criminal behavior

Citation needed. Because data from countries that focus on rehabilitation actually shows that is false.

Not only do you have less crime, you have less criminals returning to prison and instead becoming law abiding citizens. Whereas countries that focus on punishment show the exact opposite.

The only nation that I know of the successfully institutes a maximum penalty society successfully is Singapore.

>>3115461
>Many of them do out of highschool because they are poor and don't see the point and their education system is shit
Nobody is forcing them to leave school. They choose to do it. Fact remains there is nothing actively coercing most people to become criminals, they simply live in an environment that approves of the lifestyle and they have very little pushback against that view in their lives. But there's no real way to fight that. How do you combat an entire subculture that actively hates the culture you're trying to instill in them? The answer: you have to have control over them and force them to change. In other words by the time you're able to do it they're already so far gone it's unlikely you can help them.

>>3115467
>and that out-weighs the fact that it creates a system that incentives criminal behavior while de-incentivizing responsible productive behavior
I've never heard of any study claiming this. In fact it doesn't even follow logically, because rehab still denies criminals of what they want, which is easy material gain and satisfying destructive impulses. Rehab isn't any better than prison to a hardened criminal, they're still told what to do on a daily basis and are punished for misbehaving. In fact in many ways it's worse for them because they actually have expectations put upon them, where as in prison they're free to just lounge around doing nothing all day and get to hang out with their fellow gang members during exercise time and lunch. In rehab they are given actual tasks, things they have to do, it keeps them busy. Of course, it's voluntary, so if they don't want to do it you can't force them. If they flat out refuse to better themselves then they just rot in prison.

And also, there's so many different rehab programs that I'm not sure you could even find a cohesive study on their supposed effectiveness. That's one of the main drawbacks right now in implementing rehab on a larger scale.

>>3115476
Its gone down because prison rate has increased exponentially.

>>3115524
That doesn't follow because if more people were being arrested that would mean there were more crimes being committed to warrant those arrests. Instead you have less crimes being committed, which means less people being arrested. Our prison population is humongous though, so it does show that prison helps in cutting down crime after a sense, but it's terribly inefficient at it from a cost and general resources point of view. Rehabilitation would solve both prison population problems and the eternal issue of recidivism, but I outlined in my original post why prisons, at least American ones, are reluctant to try rehabilitation.

>>3115487
That's just because the "rehabilitative" systems in question are still relatively young, we'll see how well they continue to function as the tax burden increases over time.

>>3115487
>data from countries that focus on rehabilitation actually shows that is false.
Most of those countries don't have very high crime rates to begin with though. The drop that results from rehab could also just be a rounding error for all the noticeable impact it has. That's why to see some serious testing it needs to be implemented on a wide scale in a country like America. Maybe just in one State. Like Michigan.

>>3115522
>In fact it doesn't even follow logically, because rehab still denies criminals of what they want, which is easy material gain and satisfying destructive impulses.
I'm not talking about increased criminal behavior among career criminals, I'm talking about decreased respect for the law among the law abiding who will be more willing to engage in criminal behavior when they see how little it costs criminals.

>>3115537
Criminals exist as stated earlier due to various circumstances. All of which are fixable. And in very rare cases, not fixable.

Stricker prison system we have in the US simply puts those types of people in prison longer and for more often. Thus it looks as if crime has gone down. And it has, to a degree, but the main change comes from the fact that prisoners are kept more often and there are more prisoners.

But I agree with you, this system "works" but is horribly inefficient. Its not only more expensive on keeping them like this, its also expensive in that they do not contribute anything back to the society. A double negative doesn't, in this case, make a positive.

Unfortunately people are too emotional in this and they simply want punishment and do not consider the benefits of proper reform system. Less tax to be paid, less crimes to be had, more infrastructure for the social needs, safer place, stronger economy, etc.

>>3115548
Except it doesn't. You are still removed from society, you are still incarcerated, and you are still punished for poor behavior.

The only real difference is that the prison will mold you into a useful citizen rather than letting you be molded into a career criminal.

You seem to think that all criminals are the Joker or something when that simply isn't the case and you've still yet to show any evidence for your claim..

>>3115548
>I'm talking about decreased respect for the law among the law abiding who will be more willing to engage in criminal behavior when they see how little it costs criminals.
Prison right now costs you your freedom and definitely whatever job (if any) you had, and makes it much harder to find work or participate in decent society. So let's say there's some guy who is only held in check because prison is worse than his life right now.

How would rehab be an improvement? He still loses his freedom, he still would lose whatever job he currently has and would probably burn bridges with most of the respectable elements of society. Pretty much all the social penalties of prison still apply. The only difference is, instead of just letting you spin your wheels doing nothing, rehab allows you to direct your energies toward some productive end with the goal of reforming you into a productive member of society. You probably won't be able to get a nice job, but you'll at least have A job of some kind to work off your debt to society. And I mean that literally, because the cost of rehabilitating you will be turned into a debt that you have to repay by working.

>>3115575
>Prison makes it harder to work and participate in decent society as a productive member
>rehabilitation makes it easier to participate in society as a productive member
???

>You probably won't be able to get a nice job, but you'll at least have A job of some kind to work off your debt to society. And I mean that literally, because the cost of rehabilitating you will be turned into a debt that you have to repay by working.
So what incentive exactly does that give a criminal to rehabilitate, if you've just given him a debt he will never pay off and a permanent status as second class citizen? Why wouldn't he just go right back to crime?

>>3115560
>You seem to think that all criminals are the Joker or something when that simply isn't the case and you've still yet to show any evidence for your claim..

You sound like a fucking woman.
>Oh he's not bad, he's just misunderstood I can change him!
Sorry I'm not going to support your self-destructive social love affair with reforming bad boys at the expense of law abiding citizens.

>>3114330
Some people simply aren't worth the resources.

If your dog bites a toddlers face off, it's going to get euthanized because its life has no intrinsic value and trying to rehabilitate it is a waste of time. Humans aren't really any different, some people just aren't worth the bother.

>>3115559
>All of which are fixable
And yet crime still exists in every country on Earth regardless of culture or correctional methods. If it were possible to simply "fix" the source of crime there would be no crime. Period. The American government spends hundreds of billions on developing weapons for hypothetical wars, it would not hesitate to drop hundreds of billions to solve crime forever given the huge overhead cost it creates for maintaining the largest most elaborate prison system on Earth.

>Stricker prison system we have in the US simply puts those types of people in prison longer and for more often.
This doesn't follow as I said. If more people were being arrested there would be more crimes to correspond. Instead there are fewer crimes and thus fewer arrests. It doesn't "look as though" crime has gone down, crime HAS gone down. It's measurable, demonstrable fact. It's not just because sentences are longer and paroles are less frequent, new policing methods that started in the 90s had a big impact on it too. New York City in particular had a drastic change in how policing was done from the 80s to the 00s that transformed it from one of the most criminal cities in America to one of the safest big cities in the country.

The current system is inefficient, but its costs are easy to predict and create budgets for. Having a massive prison population is fine as long as its relatively stable and has predictable, controllable growth, which is the case in America. Yes its expensive and necessitates building more infrastructure as years go by, but you know well in advance when this is necessary and can plan for it. What I'm getting at here is that while costly, it's something that is easy to plan around. Rehab right now isn't that easy to plan for, it doesn't have a cohesive system in place and the ultimate costs aren't known and can't be planned years in advance.

That's why more testing is necessary, to build faith in the rehabilitation system.

>>3115581
>???
I'm not sure what you're confused about. Having a person be unable to participate in society after being released from prison is literally the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you want. If they can't get a job, can't participate in society meaningfully, that actually incentivizes them to go back to crime. Because that's the only way they know how to get by. Ideally you want people when they are no longer judged to be dangerous to society, to become productive and contribute to society. Having a correctional system that does the opposite: turning people into career criminals because it ruins their prospects of finding honest work, is detrimental to the goal of the justice system.

Rehab is basically prison that turns people into working citizens by the time they leave it. Because that's what you want. Criminal goes in, tax payer comes out. Government is happy for new source of taxable income, people are happy there's one less criminal.

>So what incentive exactly does that give a criminal to rehabilitate
That's the problem I was talking about earlier. The worst of them don't want to rehabilitate so it's basically a waste to try right now. More experimentation needs to be done on aggressive methods. A lot of criminals that are impossible to rehabilitate right now could be salvageable with different methods probably, but the field is still so nascent we don't know what's really possible with a big budget behind it.

>>3115603
>New York City in particular had a drastic change in how policing was done from the 80s to the 00s that transformed it from one of the most criminal cities in America to one of the safest big cities in the country.

That drastic change wasn't a shift toward rehabilitation though but an increase in authoritarian policies. Authoritarian policies which are now being rolled back and to no great surprise the crime rate is increasing accordingly.

>>3115603
There are no perfect systems as we are imperfect beings, but we can still get to the 99.999% rate with proper prison reforms.

>>3115616
I'm confused by the fact that you're simultaneously saying that prison restricts their options while broadening them.

>Because that's what you want. Criminal goes in, tax payer comes out
Actually what I'd prefer is criminal goes in, nothing comes out other than perhaps whatever resources we're able to extract from them before they expire, but I admit to being unreasonable regarding this issue.

>>3115636
Yet nobody can even get close. Starting from the premise of "crime is easily fixable" is, in my opinion, utterly worthless. Thousands of years of human society prove you wrong. Start from a more practical place, like "turning criminals into working citizens is possible with a general program". That's something you can pitch to people without sounding like a lunatic idealistic with no grounding in reality.

>>3115642
>Nobody
Japan and Nordic country's prison rehabilitation system are much closer than US is by miles. They're not close to the perfection zone yet, as they're still human and they're operating within the range of limits. Each of those systems can be vastly improved as well.

Their systems are much better than ours, so equating our system with their system are false. Just because none of the countries on earth have a near perfect system doesn't mean they're all equal. Some are much better than others and some worse. This is the fact. There's still room for improvement. Just because they're not all near perfect its hopeless to ever change to a better system.

>>3115638
>I'm confused by the fact that you're simultaneously saying that prison restricts their options while broadening them.
It doesn't really broaden them. For rehabilitation to work you need to have work available for them, so that would likely mean getting companies that are willing to hire reformed criminals to cooperate with rehabilitation programs. It's hardly giving them freedom or opportunities, it's more just putting them on a track to work at this particular job and become productive rather than just rotting in a cell.

>>3115650
>Japan and Nordic country's prison rehabilitation system are much closer than US is by miles
And what do those have that the US doesn't? Racially homogeneous populations and cultures that respect the law. Japan's culture in particular produces extremely law abiding people. You can literally leave your wallet on an outdoor cafe table in Tokyo and come back 3 hours later and it will still be there. Of course crime exists in Japan, and a part of their low crime rates is due to a lack of proper police reporting, but even accounting for that they are far and away one of the most law-abiding countries in the world, and they have been for a long time.

If you look at the US we have very high racial tension here. 12% of our population is a historically persecuted minority ethnicity. This group tends to be seen as criminals by the dominant group regardless of their actual behavior, and the minority group utterly despises the culture and order of the dominant group due to generations of mistreatment. The result is the dominant group is constantly policing the minority group due to perceived latent criminality, which only worsens their mistrust of the dominant group and causes them to reject the dominant group's culture and rules that much more fiercely, which causes more policing... and so on. You cannot just "fix" that with a rehab program.

Because Fefes

File: 1500232147748m.jpg (63KB, 1024x576px) Image search: [Google]

63KB, 1024x576px

>>3115595

>most countries with the least crime have rehabilitative systems
>most of the crime-ridden ones adopted a "tough on crime" approach

Sure correlation doesn't mean causation but is there really a country where crime increased when a rehabilitative service was implemented?

>>3115593
You basically spelled out "I lost the argument. I have nothing left to say"

>>3115595
>He thinks he sounds smart with his laughably stupid argument

>>3114497
>Rehabilitation is harder and doesn't work
Tell that to scandinavia.

>>3115638
>I'm confused by the fact that you're simultaneously saying that prison restricts their options while broadening them.
He was probably saying that retributive justice restricts them while rehabilitation broadens them.

>>3118098
What argument?
The purely emotional driven belief that criminals are just like everyone else and aren't prone to short term thinking, low empathy, low intelligence and violence?

"Rehabilitation" is female thinking full stop. There's no reason these people should be handheld through life while actually product citizens are forced to take up the slack.

>>3118142
>The purely emotional driven belief that criminals are still humans
Ok.
>is female thinking full stop
Oh there we go, you're one of those

>>3115595
>Some people can't be rehabilitated
>Ok noone can then, everyone can burn

This is your argument

File: 1492714522208.png (179KB, 463x492px) Image search: [Google]

179KB, 463x492px

>>3114330
>someone commits criminal behavior, clearly indicating that they are not fit to be part of society
>rather than trying to repair them, you throw them in a miserable hole with a bunch of other malfunctioning individuals and allow them to act out their savagery, becoming even more twisted in the process
>then, after rendering them less fit to be a part of society than they were when they already committed crimes, you let them back out in to society

>>3118129
Works, sure. It is harder, though, in some abstract societal sense if not in monetary terms. And it's "invisible" in the same way. It doesn't give people the feeling of having fixed the problem, just the statistics of having fixed the problem. People pick feelings over statistics eight times out of ten, according to my gut.

>>3114330
have you ever met a criminal before OP?

Perish the wicked.

>>3118237
>People pick feelings over statistics eight times out of ten, according to my gut.
Which is perfectly rational as more often than not they're either massaged bullshit or total asspulls as you so helpfully demonstrated.

Statisticians are the soothsayers of the modern age.

>>3118168
Don't think about

>>3118168
Finally, somebody in this thread fucking gets it.

Punitive penitentiary systems are criminal colleges. They're there to convince people that they are bad, and that behavior gets reinforced by all the other individuals who we train to think of themselves as broken, incomplete people.

And then we let them back out onto the streets with no real shot at a decent quality life, even though they've technically "repaid their debt to society", and wonder why they turn to the only life they've been trained to know.

>>3114330
Rehabilitation is way more expensive than punishment, which is way more expensive than a bullet in their skull.

File: BITCHES.jpg (32KB, 497x351px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 497x351px

>>3115430

Are you saying we should start subjecting criminal offenders to getting pooped on

File: 1478957167739.jpg (102KB, 654x720px) Image search: [Google]

102KB, 654x720px

>>3115258
incarcaration is cheaper.

how much does a bullet cost again?

File: 18920577_1299303240189079_943927399547827740_n.jpg (46KB, 960x788px) Image search: [Google]

46KB, 960x788px

this thread.

Child of criminals here, let me relate what I have experienced.

>Both parents were criminals. Mostly in making Meth or pushing prescription drugs. Some other crimes in there too.
>Young age see people always in and out. Drinking, smoking, and fighting are rampant in the house.
>Eat raw potatoes as well as cheese I stick in a bowl then melt in the microwave. Rarely get fast food or left over bits.
>Going to school with worn clothes, sometimes dirty. Make high grades and have unusual behavior from kids who go with me.
>Grow up to be a bit older, able to realize whats actually going on. Dad beats mom, mom beats dad, neither have too much time for me.
>Hang out with other kids around and notice they live similarly. Some kids from better neighborhoods are around, strange.
>Police are always a "problem". Have to hide from them, never answer door, never talk to them because family are criminals.
>The criminals not able to rely on police causes crime among them to skyrocket. >Criminals fight and kill each other, but never run to police which leads to ever increasing crime.
>Notice the group of friends is ever shrinking as the other kids follow the same path. The kids from better neighborhoods come and get hooked on drugs or want to be thuggin and act hard.
>No matter what community event, police intervention, or body count these people just keep on keeping on.
>Finally, dad wakes up one day after some shit.
>He gets the fuck out. Moves to a different state. Eventually digs me out to live with him.
>Holy shit, turns out his side of the family is well off and I'm now in line to inherit the family land, money, reputation, and Ranch business.

Going to school after that I had a venomous hate for criminals, especially Drug Dealers, Pimps, and Gang Bangers. You see any of those three, they need to be rounded up and shot. All those damn rich kids (and poor kids) coming in and getting high, joining a gang, or ending up taking miles of dick in public bathrooms.

File: 1481121858910.png (104KB, 450x300px) Image search: [Google]

104KB, 450x300px

>>3114330
Simple, because human lives have no inherent value. I know it's edgy and it's also true. If there's a weed in your garden, do you try to change the weed into a flower or do you just pull it out?

A human life can have a positive value ( a lawful contributing member of society) or it can have a negative value ( a criminal, murderer, thief). It's best to just remove those with negative value. Yep it's edgy but you can't argue with the point.

>>3122559
CONT.

I never succumbed to any of it, but the weathering from living in it all has stayed with me. You can't rehabilitate most of them, they always lapped up the money the city or government gave them without remorse. New parks became the new turf wars. New sidewalks became new pimp lanes. New stores became new drug dens. Prison time was a mark of veterancy, one gang by my house required a minimum 5 year sentence to join. My school had a constant rotation of teachers. All those smiling faces hoping to save the youth turn into bleak, pessimistic wastes by the end of the first semester. There was only one place that saved kids.

JROTC at the high school. Teenagers came in on the road to criminality and left at least on the road to just pirating a movie every now and again.

The two guys running it were authoritative, and the environment was hierarchical like we all understood. More important than that though was the fact that it was stable. COL and 1SG didn't judge and they would talk about anything. When you went to them, you were treated like and adult. None of the bullshit, none of the save yourself, woe is you poor oppressed chilluns crap. They'd make dirty jokes, curse, dress you down. They also picked you up, were always there, and let you help yourself if that's what you wanted.

The guys I was with quickly grew to love each other like brothers. I guess it became like the gangs outside, except it was open to any one and was good instead of bad.

Some socs from the richer neighborhood tried to shut down our Batt because it was "militarizing kids", "brainwashing us", and "capitalizing on our disadvantages."

This is why I no longer entertain my more liberal friends when it comes to low income/high crime areas. The policies that don't work keep getting tried and their failure blamed on invisible oppressors while things that we responded to or actually helped get shut down for being to authoritative, abusive, racist, ect.

>>3122597
It seems like the only conclusion this can come to is the most efficient way to run people with negative values, execution, it costs a lot to keep people in prison, but if you want a society that burutally supresses crime, welcome to the magical kingdom of Saudi Arabia, where whores are stoned and women aren't boned

>>3114330
Because attempting to turn a criminal into a functioning member of society is important but justice is even more important

>>3115221
Hi sweden

>>3114330
Ya heard of Norway?

The crime rates are much lower and the amount of people that go back into crime is only around 1/10

These people would be murderers that then get sent to a somewhat luxurious rehab that has better standards than paid american hotels and/Or appartements

File: quote-government-is-necessary-not-because-man-is-naturally-bad-but-because-man-is-by-nature-more-thomas-hobbes-283649.jpg (48KB, 850x400px) Image search: [Google]

48KB, 850x400px

>>3122597
>Simple, because human lives have no inherent value.
bullshit. All human live has potential energy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ultimate_Resource

>I know it's edgy and it's also true.
I remember being a self-centered college freshman who thought he had the world figured out, too

>Yep it's edgy but you can't argue with the point.
Sure you can: you can take people with "negative value" and turn them into people with positive value which would have an overall much more beneficial long term effect on the economy than simply killing them.

Not to mention, simply killing the "negative value" humans doesn't do anything to address the material conditions which made them "negative value" in the first place.

>>3123181
>simply killing the "negative value" humans doesn't do anything to address the material conditions which made them "negative value" in the first place.

"humans are all good deep down, it's the evulz society that derails them!"

Some people cannot be reformed. Some people simply don't deserve to be. Besides, punishment also helps dissuading others from going down the criminal path.

>>3123096
Norway is white

>>3123192
>Some people can't be reformed

That isn't up for dispute. The argument is that easily 90% of criminals can. Over 2/3rd's of inmates in the US prison system are in for non-violent crimes.

The problem with prison systems that focus on punishment is all you are doing is further cementing these people as criminals and then releasing them back into society, which doesn't fix the problem. All you've done is create a career criminal.

So with that in mind, your argument is either a system that is proven to not work or making every crime a death or life sentence which is draconian and stupidly expensive.

>>3114330
The Eternal Anglo went a different way and had a weregeld for literally everything.
You could kill the king, just pay 15k thrymsas to the royal famm and 15k to the peasants.
Price for a ceorl in Wessex was 200 shillings, 1200 for an eorl.

Really makes you think.

>>3123192
>"humans are all good deep down, it's the evulz society that derails them!"
Did you not see that I posted a picture of Thomas Hobbes?

People are NOT inherently good or bad; they're individualists jockeying for social status. When you can accept this basic truth about human behavior, you can begin constructing society around ways of channeling this sense of individualism towards productive ends and the overall good of the nation.

>Some people cannot be reformed.
Yes, we call those people "mentally ill" and they deserve facilities which are going to keep them from being a danger to themselves and the people around them.

The overwhelming majority of criminals are there for non-violent crimes and by adopting this attitude, you're making it so that rather than surrounding them with people who can bring them back from the precipice, you surround them with people who are going to drag them over it

>>3123181
> All human live has potential energy
Fine we can rendder them down into anutrient slurry to feed and ferilize plants. Nothing goes to waste now, happy?

>>3123222
>Over 2/3rd's of inmates in the US prison system are in for non-violent crimes.
Violemce isn't the only crime worth punishing my overly socialized friend. Next tim eyou start feeling bad for non-violent criminals, remember that Bernie Madoff is in prison for committing non-violent crimes.

File: 1479652722941.jpg (65KB, 325x453px) Image search: [Google]

65KB, 325x453px

>>3123392
No, because rendering humans for plant slurry is probably the single most inefficient use for them. Not only are they a huge investment of resources for not a lot of meat, but they are also smart enough to know when they're being exploited and not only will they fight back, other people who also don't want to get exploited (especially in such a shamelessly self-serving way) are also going to resist you. We're not animals bred to produce a lot of food for other animals, we're animals bred to adapt to change, itself.

Did you even click the link? The "ultimate resource" is the human ability to adapt and innovate and make due with alternate materials. The larger your pool of humans, the more sheer brainpower you have to drive this innovation and adaptation, provided you're not letting it all go to waste rotting away in some penitentiary system, or languishing in urban/rural poverty without any opportunities to foster it.

File: quote-what-man-loses-by-the-social-contract-is-his-natural-liberty-and-an-unlimited-right-to-everything-jean-jacques-rousseau-320992.jpg (78KB, 850x400px) Image search: [Google]

78KB, 850x400px

>>3123401
You missed his point. It's hyperbole to believe that everyone in prison is a gang-banging drug dealer doing 25 to life for armed robbery, or some psychopathic rapist who raped and murdered dozens of little girls.

Most are fairly average blokes who made a poor decision and are being made to pay for it. Or they were some brown-skinned kid whose "crime" was something that an affluent white kid would have gotten a slap on the wrist for

Most of them can, in fact, be sent to trade school and be provided with a skill that they can use to provide for themselves when they get out of prison, and be made into productive members of society. Emotions aside, this is the most logical use for them. Our options are A: let them languish in prison for life or kill them, which is simply being an edgelord. This isn't the 7th century B.C., we're not going to start executing people for petty shit.
B: let them languish in prison and then throw them out on the street when you're done with them, making it so that their chances of being a productive member of society is slim-to-nonexistent because you made them spend the best years of their life shacked up in a box with other criminals, making that the only life they'll ever know.
C: rehabilitate them into productive members of society

B is cheaper up front but incurs far greater running costs to society down the road.
C. Costs more upfront but the pay-off is creating a brand new tax-paying citizen and actually making society money in the long run

>>3114602
If the murderer is in prison he/she's not going to be able to do that (except to other prisoners but I doubt people who prefer punishing prisoners would give a crap if similar prisoners were murdered). If the murderer is not in prison and doesn't get caught it doesn't really matter whether society prefers rehabilitation or punishment; it could apply neither to the criminal.

>>3123226
that's probably because their germanic heritage meant that every time any crime with a victim occurred, both families would fly into an autistic feud for centuries and tear apart the local village-based life system.

apparently they were A-OK with being handed a sack of shekels after their family member was murdered.
>anglo """civlization"""

>>3114330
Humans are vindictive toward "the other"

>>3122610
>>3122559
Sorry for all you've been through but first hand experience doesn't make you an expert on psychology. You claiming those people "cant be rehabilitated" because you've seen them matters little. If anything it makes your opinion not only ill informed but biased aswell.

>>3115373
This is your brain on revenge. Protip, revenge is not justice.

>>3118142
Never go pure ideology, man.

>>3125633
>you have direct, firsthand experience on this subject so clearly you are unfit to have an opinion
>let's just stick to jewish psychologists and social """""""""science"""""""""

>>3125761
or, you know, factual evidence and mountains of demographics data

>"B-but... the joos!"
unironically kill yourself

>>3125772
oy vey surely you wouldn't want to waste thousands of taxpayer shekels trying to "rehabilitate" someone instead of telling them to kys, right?

File: 1385795455696.png (179KB, 1155x852px) Image search: [Google]

179KB, 1155x852px

>>3125787
>>3125761

File: 1247215399628.jpg (48KB, 499x499px) Image search: [Google]

48KB, 499x499px

>>3125808
heh, you appear to have run out of arguments kid.

>>3114635
>much needed human resources
Just give them a weapon and send them to a penal legion

Sin.

>>3122559
So you're saying you're well off now because your dad, a long time criminal, finally came to his senses, but at the same time you're arguing that criminals will never change their minds and will never stop committing crimes.

>>3125808
Seizing the memes of production, huh commie?

>>3125633
You're the type of guy who lives in a wealthy suburb with no experience of the real world who holds an altruistic belief in the universal perfectibility of human nature.

Get real, some people are so backward that any attempt to change their underlying psyche will prove useless. I know this is a purely anecdotal account, but I knew a guy who had been involved in gangs and criminal activity since he was a teenager. The local council was generous enough as to provide him with a council flat in an extremely expensive part of town. Almost immediately, he started renting it out to others and reverted back to his old lifestyle. In the end, he was finally thrown out, but in the process cost the council thousands, and resulted in accommodation being denied to someone who truly needed it.

Some people will never change, no matter how much money, care or support is heaped onto them. Belief systems can be so deeply embedded in people that attempts to alter them, at the cost of the taxpayer, are frankly useless. The solution is to treat criminals with the contempt and punishment they deserve, not the feeling as if they themselves are the victim.

>>3126010
As you said, it's all anecdotal. Saying "some people never change" because you've seen people not changing doesn't prove anything. Psychology is an amazing field.

>>3126010
>your arguments end where my feels begin

Rehabilitation rarely works without punishment first.

>>3126624
Rehabilitation works best when it goes hand in hand with punishment.

>>3125245
>Most are fairly average blokes who made a poor decision and are being made to pay for it.
As they should.

>Or they were some brown-skinned kid whose "crime" was something that an affluent white kid would have gotten a slap on the wrist for
I'm not a Marxist so I don't care.

>C. Costs more upfront but the pay-off is creating a brand new tax-paying citizen and actually making society money in the long run
>State indoctrination fails to take during thirteen years of public schooling
>a few years of prison school will totally change them though
I don't buy for a second that the amount of money we pay in taxes to turn scum into slightly less scummy minimum wage scum who pay minimal taxes and undoubtedly will take advantage of welfare programs will be balanced out by the pocket change the state squeezes out of them in taxes at the end of the year.

File: ZT-187nr.jpg (32KB, 512x512px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 512x512px

>>3114728
>im above emotions. I make all decisions based on reason

>>3126904
>As they should.
nobody denies this

>I'm not a Marxist so I don't care.
Marxism literally has nothing to do with criminal justice reform. You're just a self-centered ass who can't be bothered to care about anything beyond his own narrow range of interests.

>I don't buy for a second that the amount of money we pay in taxes to turn scum into slightly less scummy minimum wage scum who pay minimal taxes and undoubtedly will take advantage of welfare programs will be balanced out by the pocket change the state squeezes out of them in taxes at the end of the year.
The point of rehabilitating them is to make sure that they don't become dependent on the system, that they don't become drifters living in a homeless shelter, whose only work they can find is menial bitch labor for minimum wage, and they don't find themselves back in the system because it's the only life they know.

And it's still cheaper in the long run than keeping them locked in a box and having to feed and supervise them 24/7.

>>3127103
Is this some kind of new thing the kids are doing where it's just not cool to found your arguments in reason and logic anymore? We all have to be primates flinging shit at each other because reason and logic leads us to conclusions which make us feel bad in the brain?

I'm not even that guy but holy shit, it's like you just admitted to being retarded.

>>3127154
yes.
it's all virtue signaling, with muh reason muh logic, look at me I have no biases or opinions, I'm so impartial.
instead of basing your beliefs on honesty and what you feel to be true from your life experience.

the enlightenment was a mistake.

>>3125951
He only managed to come back because something personal hit him and he changed himself.

I am not saying they can not change their minds, I am just saying it is next to impossible for them to do it through "rehabilitation".

If people really want to help criminals, let them hit the ground, don't catch them. Go to AA meetings or other related events and hear the peoples stories. 9/10, they will relate to you a personal story of despair and self improvement. It will be rare to find a guy who changed because a government/charity/church policy/event changed them. They will have had a near death experience or emotional meltdown that leads them to seek the help they want on their own.

Tldr: Don't try and help criminals, just have support available for them to use themselves when they make the decision to climb out of crime.

>>3114330
>Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

>>3127580
>Unironically quoting something your country selectively follows

Lmao

Humanists have killed God and thus lost any capacity for forgiveness. In His and its place, they build statues titled "Society" and "Justice".

>>3114728
le STEM meme

>>3115373
muh society!!!!!! we wuz vikangs n shieeet!

>>3127165
kill yourself, dumbass

File: 123209393484.jpg (55KB, 785x757px) Image search: [Google]

55KB, 785x757px

>>3127952
hello r*ddit!

File: 1489931516741.jpg (508KB, 1072x1600px) Image search: [Google]

508KB, 1072x1600px

>I like capricious and non-uniform applications of government power based on who is currently in charge
By elevating 'honesty' (your own personal feelings, snowflake dear), you're advocating for a system of laws where the aggrieved individual is god, where their personal satisfaction is the key to justice, despite that victims are hardly the best people to ask

Meanwhile, as modern feminism would tell you, certainly some victims of rape or sexual assault take out their trauma on the entire male sex, or culture as a whole. You and I can clearly tell that they're simply hurt, and not in the best position to advocate for any larger system of laws or punishment relating to the crime they suffered. Their personal involvement clouds their perception. When they say all men are rapists, or that the presumption of doubt should be overturned for the particular crime they were a victim of, they're being unreasonable, but honest. You value honesty, so would you give away your constitutional rights because she's being honest, since "no one can be objective lol".

Kill yourself. If you want emotion over reason then you'll be fine with everything I just said, but I have a feeling you won't

>>3128004
*swishes cape*
*disappears in a puff of smoke leaving behind a single rose*

>>3127965

>>3128004
Boy oh boy am I glad we have emotionally detached people like you to remind us the life of a murderer is more important than the life victim and that the value of people is measured by their potential future utility to the state.

>>3127145
>Marxism literally has nothing to do with criminal justice reform.
Then why are the people who push for it always Marxists?

>The point of rehabilitating them is to make sure that they don't become dependent on the system, that they don't become drifters living in a homeless shelter, whose only work they can find is menial bitch labor for minimum wage, and they don't find themselves back in the system because it's the only life they know.

but the only work they'll be able to find after rehabilitation is minimum wage bitch labor so what's the point?

>And it's still cheaper in the long run than keeping them locked in a box and having to feed and supervise them 24/7.
You keep claiming this.
I just told you I don't believe you.

>>3128746
>Then why are the people who push for it always Marxists?
Probably for the same reason why unapologetic racists tend to be hard right-wingers. Something about the psychologies of opposing viewpoints and the cultural underpinnings of race, no doubt.

And for the record, I know plenty of libertarians and fiscal conservatives who are also in favor of criminal justice reform.

>but the only work they'll be able to find after rehabilitation is minimum wage bitch labor so what's the point?
The point is that you teach them how to weld, do carpentry, repair motor vehicles, operate a crane, work which is along those kind of things, along with instituting a process for gradually transitioning ex-cons back into the work force. That way they actually can get a decent paying job, and aren't broke and desperate and locked in the same economic conditions which inspired them to commit the crime, in the first place.

>I just told you I don't believe you.
>https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2016/07/19/2016-17040/annual-determination-of-average-cost-of-incarceration
It costs about 32,000 dollars to keep an inmate locked up in prison for a year.
>http://www.salve.edu/sites/default/files/filesfield/documents/Incarceration_and_Recidivism.pdf
And here is where it talks about rehabilitation's proven record of reducing rates of recidivism, and making it so that people aren't continuously returning to the penitentiary system because the only life they know is that of a career criminal.

>>3122559
>>3122610
You seem to be comparing women becoming prostitutes with selling hard drugs, robbery, and killing people. This comparison is erroneous and your life experience doesn't make it factual.

File: wojako4.jpg (616KB, 1790x1559px) Image search: [Google]

616KB, 1790x1559px

>>3114330
Since you're trying to play the act of the ''mightily logical and sensible alt-dude'', perhaps that you could listen a minute to my account, that should do a better job at challenging you.

First of all, having past criminals do low paying jobs after doing prison isn't an inherently bad thing. Plenty of innocent people do that, and by gaining experience and getting promotions or by searching for better jobs, they slowly better their financial position. Minimum salary is enough for them to live, so why should the state and the taxpayers shoulder the burden of training some person that egoistically chose to break socially useful conventions ?

Secondly, simply arguing for rehabilitation is a rather incoherent approach. It is needed to punish to some extent crimes. For instance, crimes such as regicide are extremely costly to society, by destabilizing the powers that be. It would make sense to recriminate severely crimes such as this. Therefore, it is unreasonable to defend a purely rehabilitative system whereas a dual approach one can easily reap its benefits.

File: WeThePepe.jpg (108KB, 720x720px) Image search: [Google]

108KB, 720x720px

>>3114330
Punishment is chosen over rehabilitation because people believe in Free Will.

E.g, if you chose to broke the law, you deserve the consequences, even if the society you live in is so shit(like the U.S), that most people sane would continuously break the law their and usurp their corrupt and tyrannical government.

>>3130439
>It is needed to punish to some extent crimes.

The punishment for doing a crime is isolation from society idiot. It's basically depriving the freedom other people have from the person over their own schedules, food, movement and everything.

>>3114330
there can be no redemption without punishment.

>>3130572
Perhaps you don't clearly understand what you are saying then ? Restricting the movement of agents constitutes a punishment - this is precisely what I meant. Since you do understand this - you even made sure to spell it -, you do understand that you are simply defending what is being done right now, making this whole thread superfluous ? There are libraries in prison, and you can follow classes. So what exactly did you wanted to make a thread about ? You are simply arguing for measures that are applied in the present.

>>3128840
>http://www.salve.edu/sites/default/files/filesfield/documents/Incarceration_and_Recidivism.pdf
>Despite a steady decline in the crime rate over the past two decades, the United States
incarcerates more of its citizens than any
other country
>If crime is down, why are there still so
many Americans behind bars?

>How can crime be down when most of the criminals are in prison?
Sociology in a nutshell.

The real question is why doesn't God prefer rehabilitation. I mean, couldn't He just give you a spanking and teach you some manners instead of throwing you to fucking Hell.
>inb4 purgatory
Non existent in Orthodoxy.

>>3128892
Prostitutes get used to push drugs, deflect cops, bring in money, and have kids that become the ones to sell hard drugs, rob, and kill people.

Prostitutes whether under a pimp or "freelance" are criminal. Notice though that I specified pimps as the ones to be shot however. They are the ones to rope in prostitutes (Male and female, you'd be surprised at the amount of both), beat them, get them addicted, and so on.

Tldr-I was not saying they are as bad or that I'd target them to be shot, however they are still criminals and should be treated as such.

>>3114851
>>Kill people left and right
>>economy slows down due to lack of people
>>people go into poverty due to the stagnation

You realize labor prices would go up in case of a population bottleneck?

ITT

>Allusion to statistics and studies that are never posted
>"Anybody that advocates a punitive criminal system is emotionally motivated, pursues vengeance. They are irrational, unlike me, who believes in the inherent goodness of mankind"
>Uh, yeah, you can't rehabilliate some people and it'd be less of an expense to swiftly dispatch them, but... uh, yeah that's really edgy!
>if you want the death penalty for murder you're basically going to get saudi arabia

>>3132118
And
>correlation is causation

>>3115221

The desire for revenge is completely normal and acceptable you fat fucking turd

File: pic.jpg (20KB, 620x465px) Image search: [Google]

20KB, 620x465px

>Kill 100 children
>get rewarded with a comfy room an a ps2

This is what rehabilitationists unironically support

File: Z1vnxv.jpg (584KB, 904x652px) Image search: [Google]

584KB, 904x652px

>>3132137
>have weed in your car's trunk in front of a police officer
>get locked in the Rape Castle for five years
>lose any and all career prospects
>lose all your friends and acquaintances, have to constantly be in touch with your parole officer or else you're going right back to the Rape Castle

This is what punishers think isn't strong enough.

>>3132189
>being a pothead

Had it coming lol

>>3131782
That's because prostitution is illegal.

File: rodrigo_duterte_39[1].jpg (133KB, 1074x908px) Image search: [Google]

133KB, 1074x908px

>>3132189
>drugs

>>3132137
>implying you don't secretly support killing 100 children
Typically alt-right cuck

>>3132542
Yes, please keep supporting forgiving treatment of far-right mass murderers if that is upholding your own personal, moderate principles.

>>3132189
I don't believe in punishement for victimless crimes, and I do believe in rehab programs for "accidental" criminals.

I do however also believe that murderers, violent rapists, or people that get a kick out of torturing/making other suffers gratuitously should get executed.

>>3114534
You forget that for a large percentage of prisoners, they will become repeat offenders. Some people just like to do bad things.

>>3132537
Finest Korean products, used by Gold man Iraqis, Isis and the president of the Phillips

>>3118129
>he doesn't know that rehab only works when the offender is a native citizen

Why not both?

File: 1500911324543.jpg (235KB, 650x505px) Image search: [Google]

235KB, 650x505px

yhwh wants us all dead , duh.
jews.
why are drug laws even a thing ?
see above statement.

>>3132697
>I do however also believe that murderers, violent rapists, or people that get a kick out of torturing/making other suffers gratuitously should get executed.

And people can change.

>>3114635
>Their "crime" was a mere misdemeanor that's really more about getting people to respect/obey the law than any violent and destructive crime.

if you get put in prison you did more than "just a misdemeanor"

>>3134389
Officially, yes, but the real problem in our country are jails being overcrowded as shit and people being locked up for months or even years awaiting a hearing for some petty bullshit while being locked in grossly under-serviced conditions with criminals of all types of crimes.

Jails these days are much more dangerous than prisons

File: 1455587238138.png (38KB, 499x338px) Image search: [Google]

38KB, 499x338px

>>3115331
>it's actually more cost effective to turn a liability into an asset
>thinking that criminal scum can be turned into assets
what kind of retarded fairy tale world do you live in?
lel

>>3132189
In what state does having a little bit of weed put you in prison for 5 years ?

>>3114330
It's cheaper

Its because people are retarded and believe an inch should be a mile

>>3134806
It has more to do with white cops arresting young black men and white judges throwing the book at them because they want to set "an example".

>>3115559
>But I agree with you, this system "works" but is horribly inefficient. Its not only more expensive on keeping them like this, its also expensive in that they do not contribute anything back to the society. A double negative doesn't, in this case, make a positive.

Whatever happened to HARD LABOR?

>>3134184
Yes some people can, some people cant. I dont see how that's relevant.

File: 1500580391539.jpg (232KB, 979x832px) Image search: [Google]

232KB, 979x832px

>>3118168

File: pilkbond.png (82KB, 849x190px) Image search: [Google]

82KB, 849x190px

>>3114547
Go to bed Karl

File: image_8.jpg (91KB, 940x1261px) Image search: [Google]

91KB, 940x1261px

>>3114330
Punishment is a way to realize the anger of the population living in a moral community. People tend to be upset when someone living in a community doesn't abide by the rules that the rest of them follow. The punishment has two purposes: as a deterrent to would-be criminals and a cathartic process for the citizens