Aztec/Mesoamerican Thread

What is complexity and how does it increase?

>>3108963
population, the income of that population, food production, infrastructure, housing, logistics, anything that involves a higher degree of social specialization really. Sociopolitical complexity is both a positive and a negative thing, it gives us more food, helps us cure or at least mitigate disease, decreases homelessness and unemployment, the most basic human problems.

The negative side of it is that, when a society becomes more complex, it's problems also become more complex.

For example, early societies often faced banditry and raiding. In order to stop this, many societies developed military orders and organized warbands in order to stop raiders and bandits from taking their stuff. Societies adapted in the face of a problem in order to help solve it. The problem with that is, other groups did the same thing. Thus we see the emergence of large armies, and the beginnings of complex warfare. As armies become larger and more complex, they require more men and materials to fuel them, and the only societies who could provide that were more centralized and authoritative. Ergo, complexity increases over time.

Im a women of 100% aztec ancestry, but i cant resist anymore, I need the seed of the spaniard inside my womb, the bearded conqueror makes my brown aztec pussy tremble with excitement.

>>3109281
Kek

>>3109281
Timestamp with a history book. Prove your a woman.

>>3109465
It's just some faggot shitposting, anon.

>>3109243
>>3108902
where are these images from?

>>3110813
Also interested.

>>3109281
>But probably nothing seemed more weird to the Spaniards than the Aztec attitude to personal hygiene. Simply, for the Aztecs being clean was cool. One Conquistador reported, in a tone of wonder, that Moctezuma bathed twice a day. He did, but there was nothing extraordinary about that for an Aztec, since everybody ‘bathed often, and many of them every day’ in the rivers, lakes or pools.

>The Mexica also used deodorants, breath fresheners and ash to clean their teeth with (Spaniards of the time cleaned theirs with urine!) The Aztecs cleaned their bodies – and souls – in steam baths. An outside fire heated one of the walls via a small tunnel to red-hot, and the bather threw water on the hot wall, creating steam.

>Into this clean world, thundered the Spanish. The 16th century was a really dirty time in Europe: ever since the Black Death, people avoided water and washing like the plague; and the Spanish in particular thought and taught that being
dirty was a Christian Virtue.

>Small wonder that they responded by fumigating the Spaniards with incense as they approached. The Spaniards took it as an honour, but for the Aztecs it was a practical necessity...

>>3109281
This is actually a good way to lure a spaniard conqueefador into getting his throat cut

>>3112038
>>3110813

Here: www.theaztecvault.com

I copypasta'd the written portion at the beginning of the thread from there too. I dont know much more than that though.

What board on 4chan would fit the aztecs culture/civilization the best?

Ive just been to chichen itza, and i have a few curiosities:

- they say there is a huge cenote (waterhole) under the main temple. Anyone can confirm?

- when you clap your hands near the main temple you can hear what sounds like a bird chirping. Was that intentional?

- were the winners of mayan ballcourtgames sacrificed? Or the losers?

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>>3116272
me in there

also another question:

Could the relationship between aztecs and mayans be analogue to that of the romans and greeks?

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>>3116293
Get the fuck out of my country fag next time I'll throw a spare right through your anus

>>3116343
whats that pic supposed to be?

>>3116272
>>3116293
>they say there is a huge cenote (waterhole) under the main temple. Anyone can confirm?
They found a subterrenean river under El Castillo (temple in your pic).
>when you clap your hands near the main temple you can hear what sounds like a bird chirping. Was that intentional?
Not sure. But these ceremonial spaces were very carefully planned and got so autistic that they planned shadows to be seen in certain times of the day of the year. So maybe?
>were the winners of mayan ballcourtgames sacrificed? Or the losers?
It's still debated. Current consensus is that the losers were I believe.
>Could the relationship between aztecs and mayans be analogue to that of the romans and greeks?
It can at first glance (war machine empire that evolved into a highly cultured one vs older city-states that reached a high level of sophistication centuries before). Though I think the Toltecs and Aztecs may fit this comparison too.

>>3108902
How did religion fit into all this?

>>3118062
The same way my dick fit in your moms butthole

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bump

>>3116206
/b/ surprisingly. The Aztecs were obsessed with blood, gore, war, anthropomorphism (they were the original furries m8), fertility and sex (they regularly depicted sexual intercourse in art), death, and many things that are considered taboo by most of western society.

>>3118062

The Aztec religion doesn't really have a name, or at the very least it doesn't have an easily recognizable one. Sometimes people call it Tlateomatiliztli, which simply means "faith" in the Nahuatl language.

Religious belief fits into the theory of Aztec expansion to a degree, but probably not as much as, say, the Islamic Conquests or the Crusades where religious expansion was the primary motivating factor. Based on what we know about their history, the Aztec religion didn't appear to be a missionary one, where it's adherents actively attempted to convert foreign peoples en-masse.

Different tribes and ethnic groups worshiped different gods and many of them worshiped the same gods, but ascribed different levels of importance to each one. The Mexica, the Aztec ethnic group who controlled the empire, believed primarily in their war god Huitzilopochtli, but again, there are little to no recorded instances where they attempted to convert other populations. In fact, they regularly adopted foreign gods into their pantheon, with Xipe Totec (god of fertility, flayed god) being a good example of this.

In order to justify a war to the population who was going to be fighting in it, religious belief was probably utilized on a regular basis. The urban populations of Tenochtitlan, Texcoco, and other large cities reaped the benefits of war spoils, were exposed to mass public sacrifice, and were often indoctrinated into radical beliefs by the systems of religious education that existed there, especially in Tenochtitlan where public education was mandatory. As such, these populations could probably be described as fanatically religious, and obsessed with satiating the gods desire for blood through war. In many cases, war captives were happy to be sacrificed, and in at least one instance, when a group of Spaniards set a cage full of war captives free, some of them refused to leave and demanded to be sacrificed, because they believed they would go to a blissful afterlife

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>>3120030

It's difficult for modern (especially secular) peoples to fully understand just how important religious thought was to people of the past.

In many ways, I think the state of the Mexica Empire can be compared to the modern day Islamic State, albeit with some significant differences. The Mexica justified human sacrifice theologically, in the same way that IS justifies it's public executions. Although religious belief is probably the initial reason for the appearance of human sacrifice in the Mexican world, it quickly became a useful political tool that was most likely vital for holding the empire together. By capturing thousands of captives and sacrificing them publicly, the military and religious elite inspired awe within their own populace, terror within their enemies, and obedience within neutral or rival tribes and societies. Much in the way that the Islamic State uses mass execution as a form of propaganda, the Aztecs did the same.

If anyone is interested in learning more about religion's role in Aztec war, Inga Clendinnen and Ross Hassig have authored a variety of books that discuss these theories in detail.

>>3119222
>hey let's go out for dinner tonight
>alright let me grab my big hat
>hun what's taking so long i'm hungry
>i can't get the 16th layer to balance
>just leave the feathers off!
>I CAN'T JUST LEAVE THE FEATHERS WOMAN YOU WANT ME TO LOOK LIKE AN ASS OUT THERE?

Hey anon, another mexifag here, sadly I havent done my homework too well on the native civilizations. Whats some good books or articles that I could read and preferably something as neutral as possible on the subject that doesnt go "indians were barbarians" or "spaniards were literally hitlers"?

>>3116272
>- were the winners of mayan ballcourtgames sacrificed? Or the losers?
I visited some Mayan ruins in Honduras. My tour guide said the captain of the winning team was sacrificed so that he could become a god.

>>3120191

Aguilar Moreno wrote the Handbook to Life in the Aztec World, which is good for early to mid level enthusiasts and readers. It's a detailed general handbook, but it's also very approachable. Aguilar-Moreno isnt a scholar in this field though, so keep that in mind.

Michael E Smith has a few articles online, and they tend to be mid-level to high-level in terms of how complex they are. He focuses primarily on archaeological fieldwork, metallurgical stuff, and population statistics. He's laid a lot of the groundwork that other scholars have relied upon.

Ross Hassig is an expert on Aztec history and military history. I would recommend The Spanish Conquest of Mexico and Aztec Warfare, Imperial Expansion and Political. His stuff is higher level, but its approachable if you're interested. He doesnt have any biases in regards to Spanish vs Aztecs, and he's generally an intelligent, articulate writer. He's written about the Tarascans and Maya as well, but mostly in regards to warfare.

Inga Clendinnen has written a few higher level books like The Cost of Courage in Aztec Society. I found it difficult to get through, mostly because of her somewhat peculiar writing style that relies heavily upon her theories rather than direct evidence, but its interesting all the same.

The Tenochca Empire of Ancient Mexico by David Carrasco is very high level, but detailed and really useful for specific research and references.

>>3120747
Thanks anon, this is really great. But Ive got another question, what about the mithology of the natives, what could I read for that?

>>3120796

Aztec Thought and Culture by Miguel Leon de Portilla is a good resource. I read it a while ago, so I cant really remember all of the details though. He also wrote Broken Spears, which details the Mexica perspective of the Spanish conquest and that has some mythological themes.

Clendinnen's work discusses mythology, religion, and philosophy as well.

>>3120796
>>3120887
I'd add the book Maya Cosmos by David Freidel if you want the Maya religious views. Also read the Popol Vuh.

For Aztec philosophy I'd add Aztec Philosophy by James Maffie.

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Olmecs is a best

>>3121123
I dont know whos head is that one but it looks like its made of CACA!, but yeah the olmecs were pretty rad anyway

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>>3121189
It's made of pure rock

>>3120118
How's your comedy skit coming along?

>>3121206
I know man, its just a meme I tought for you to laugh haha :)

>>3121206
>Spend all that time and effort carving into pure rock
>Carve a fat ugly face

Somebody post that Aztec dressed like a lobster at a sacrificial altar
>Ywn give somebody the pinch to keep the world going

>>3121409
Its not like they had other models like romans or greeks if thats what you meant.

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>>3121532
This?

>>3121583
Holy shit anon what the fuck? Why did they dressed like that? How does it look irl? I need to know more of green lobster man.

>>3121532
Or this guy inside the lobster?

>>3121583
Anon delivers

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>>3121601
Whoops forgot pic

>>3121599
>>3121605
Well these guys are Maya. And they are dancers performing some Underworld dance. The underworld was seen as very watery and aquatic. They believed we came from water and we go there when we die.

>>3121634
Do you have any pics of how the suit looks? Or more details of it like its materials or simply a more detailed look of it.

>>3121610
This is also appreciated.
Consumption and adoration of the lobster is the sign of any civilized culture.

>>3121662
I don't sorry. The figures are from the bonampak mural though. I'd guess the materials are wood, shell, jade or green stones, obsidian and flowers.

>>3121634
I think you're confused about the Maya. They weren't exactly jungle hippies who chilled with ETs and knew astronomy and shit. If anything, the Bonampak murals show the exact opposite and depict very violent scenes. Imagine the state of Europe at around that same time. Rome was basically a shell of it's former self and shit was going down on a daily basis.

>>3121687
Death and life were part of the same reality. You do know in these murals there are also violent scenes including a battle and post battle humiliation of captives? It would make sense to show underworld watery scenes since sacrifice was tied so much to warfare, fertility, death and the cycle of life. Idk where your jungle hippy comment comes from but I suggest you read on Maya conceptions of the Underworld and Death.

>>3121712
Sorry about the jungle hippies comment. The popular conception of Mayans is so mind boggling dumb because of bullshit like ancient ayys

>>3112146
>practical necessity

Kek

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>>3112146
the steam bath is called Temazcal and some people still bath in them to this day

>>3112146
>Spaniards of the time cleaned theirs with urine!
>and here we see the 20th century's primitive automobiles, powered by burning fossils

>>3108902
they were black do your research

>>3121897
At first I was like wew with the WE WUZ KANGS N SHIT but when they started to say olmecs were black I got legitimately mad.

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>>3121123
True

>>3121712

Don't forget that they were still in the bicameral mindset, and were therefore going on autopilot through almost all of their lives.

>>3121583

Crab bro is now /ourguy/

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Spaniards are all burning in Hell right now. Prove me wrong.

>The next morning, after we had commended ourselves to God in prayer, we broke up our quarters. Each company marched in close order, and our cavalry were to be particularly upon their guard; were either to advance suddenly, or fall back upon us, according as circumstances might be, and at all events to watch that our ranks were nowhere broken, and that no one strayed from his own company.
>After we had marched onwards for some time we came up with two large bodies of the enemy, amounting to about 6000 men. They set up a most terrific noise with their drums and trumpets, and yelled awfully. They then let fly their arrows, threw their lances at us, and upon the whole were most daringly valiant. Cortes now ordered us to halt, and despatched three Indians, whom we had made prisoners the day before, to the enemy, requesting them to stay hostilities, as we were very desirous of looking upon them as brothers and friends.

>>3122129
>The prisoners went off with this message to the enemy, but not the slightest notice was taken of it; on the contrary, they attacked us so furiously that we could no longer look idly on. "Forward! St. Jacob is with us! On to the enemy!" cried Cortes; and in an instant we greeted the Indians so sharply with our fire-arms, that numbers were immediately killed and wounded; among the former three chiefs. After this first volley they fell back to about the distance of a musket-shot, where they took up their position.
>Here an army of above 40,000 warriors, commanded by their general-in-chief Xicotencatl, lay in ambush. Their standards bore his colours, white and variegated. As the ground here was full of deep cavities our cavalry were completely useless, until by using the greatest precaution they managed] to pass over these. This was not done without considerable risk, for the enemy plied their bows and lances with great dexterity, having, moreover, the advantage of the higher ground. The stones from their slings were no less annoying; but all this only lasted until we had gained the level ground.

>>3122135
>For now we richly rewarded them for their pains, and killed great numbers. Yet we durst not venture to open our ranks; for the instant any one stepped out to assist any other soldier or officer he was that moment dangerously wounded. We were, therefore, obliged to keep our ranks firmly closed, and by degrees had to contend with more than twenty different divisions, which was, indeed, pretty hot work. Besides all this the Indians kept continually throwing sand in our faces to blind us. Here, indeed, the great mercy of God alone could save us.

-Bernal Diaz Del Castillo

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>>3122139
Heroes

>>3122054
That's bs. They were no different than you or me.

>>3122356
>crushing indigenous societies with superior military technology makes u a hero

>>3123179
This. The real hero was Tzilacatzin.

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>>3121583
>tfw your ancestors never hung out with crab people
I don't like this feel

>>3122120
Not really because they said they were doing (((God's))) will.

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>>3123179
Im sure it wasnt that much the superior technology.

>>3122139
>We soldiers also knew that we should run great risk of losing our lives either from hunger or from the advantages which the enemy would have over us in such a strongly fortified city. Cortes, after questioning the man who had come from Tlacupa, despatched Ordas with 400 men, mostly armed with crossbows and muskets, and a few horse, to see what truth there was in his statement. He recommended him, however, to avoid, if possible, all hostilities, and to settle the affair amicably. Ordaa had scarcely reached half-way down the causeway when he was met by a vast body of Mexicans, who, with those posted on the tops of the houses, attacked him so furiously that eight of his men were killed at the first onset, and most of them wounded, Ordas himself in three several places. He found it impossible to move on any further, and he therefore gradually retreated to our quarters. On his retreat he lost another excellent soldier named Lezcano, who had done wonders with his broadsword.

>>3123679
>If the body of warriors was vast which had fallen upon Ordas, that which at the same instant attacked our quarters was by far more so; and so vigorously did they assail us with lances, arrows, and stones, that, in an instant, forty of our men were wounded, twelve of whom subsequently died. The numbers who attacked us in front, from behind, and from the tops of the houses, were so vast that Ordas was unable, for a length of time, to cut his way through. Our cannon, muskets, crossbows, and lances, did, certainly, great havoc among the enemy's ranks, who, in fact, rushed in upon our weapons; yet they continued the combat with the same fury, and closed their ranks more firmly, nor could we drive them back a single inch.

>>3123687
>It was only after a good deal of hard fighting that Diego and his men were able to regain our quarters, though with twenty-three soldiers less than when he had left it, and the rest all wounded: add to which, the enemy's numbers were every moment increasing; nor did they spare abusive language, calling us old women, ragged scoundrels, and such like beautiful names. But the loss we sustained at present was nothing to what we subsequently suffered. They even carried their audacity so far as to throw fire into our quarters, while one body attacked us in front and another from behind, so that we should soon have been suffocated by the flames and smoke if we had not succeeded in putting out the fire by throwing quantities of earth on it, and by pulling down the apartments from which the fire was spreading. The combat continued the whole day until late at night, during which time they continued to throw such quantities of stones and lances into our quarters, that the place was literally covered with them.

>>3123695
>>3123687
>>3123679
Sounds comfy.

>>3123589
The other guy was describing the battles between the Tlascalans (led by Xicotencatl) and the Spaniards. They had less native allies at that point.

>>3123889
It's Tlaxcaltecas you mongrel

>>3126698
This reminds me of a time someone got mad at me for spelling the Koran as "Koran" instead of "Quran" even though both spellings are technically correct.

Tlascala is not an English word, and people have spelled it numerous ways when translating it to English. I decided to use the way I've seen it spelled the most.

>>3121123
We don't know much about then though.

After sliding his hairy cock inside my pussy, I felt complete, I was born to be bred by spanish men, thats why i came here to Ibiza.
My ancestors surrender to the mighty spanish cock, it is part of the aztec tradition, so i must to the same.
I told my mom that Fernando came inside my ass! She was so jealous, she wanted to try it!

>>3129376
Lolwut

I read george washington was a huge aztecboo and wanted to shape the US similarly to them. At least aesthetically.

>>3130078
Source?

>>3108902
Were they pueblo rejects?

>>3131093
Aztecs originated from likely Jalisco or those northwest states in Mesoamerica. That is where they estimate Aztlan to be for some reason people think it's the American southwest. They migrated to Mexicos central valley. Pueblos were several hundred miles north of where they came from. But Aztecs did trade a lot with them.

Who built the Teotihuacan pyramids?

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>>3131167
Pic related

>>3131167
Toltecs probably. Its not really known. Oftentimes, they are just referred to as teotihuacanos.

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Who?

>>3131729
Wrong continent

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>>3131167

>>3131167
According to Aztecs giants. Or was that Cholula?

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How many people did the Aztecs or their predecessors sacrifice during sacrificial events? What was the largest sacrificial event that took place, or how many people were sacrificed in that event?

And i know the Amerindians in modern day Mexico/Guatemala played some type of ballgame, can we consider this game to be one of the first verified forms of football?

>>3132036
More like basketball, they kicked, hit or knocked with their hips balls into sideways hoops.

>>3132036

It depended on the occasion really. The Aztecs had 18 months per year, with each month lasting about 20 days (plus an extra 5 days at the end of the year). It's believed that they held sacrificial ceremonies probably at least once a month. These ceremonies would include the sacrifice of men captured in war, children offered by local families, and women. It's unknown how many of these people offered themselves willingly, but based on the level of religious fanaticism that existed within the region at this time, its probably safe to say that there was no shortage of willing sacrifices.

Moreover, wars of conquest and constant ceremonial battles (Xochiyaoyotl, aka flower wars) provided a steady stream of enemy captives for sacrifice. Men who were captured in war were almost always sacrificed. I personally have never heard of an instance where captive men were enslaved or ransomed, but perhaps it may have happened at some point.

As for the number of people killed, it's very difficult to know. Some battles left the Aztecs with hundreds of captives, some left them with thousands, and apparently when cities were conquered, they sometimes demanded tribute in the form of prisoners for sacrifice. Many mesoamerican cities had thousands or even tens of thousands of inhabitants, so even if they demanded only 1% of the population as prisoners, they could still recieve hundreds of captives. The largest recorded mass sacrifice was during the reign of Emperor Ahuitzotl, who led campaigns that captured between 10,000 and 80,000 men for sacrifice. They were all brought back to Tenochtitlan and then sacrificed over a period of 4 days. Those captives were taken from Tlaxcala, Metztitlan, and other small surrounding societies if I'm remembering correctly.

>>3132036

Yes, it was called Ollamaliztli and it probably became popular during the Olmec period. It spread throughout Mesoamerica, and different societies made different rules for it. There were probably variations in how it was played within the societies themselves, with low stakes, casual games and important, ceremonial games played by professionals. It was extremely popular when the Spanish arrive, and that probably helps explain why soccer is so popular in that part of the world today.

If I'm remembering correctly, one of the Aztec emperors played the game with the lord of an enemy state at one point. I can't remember who it was, but I think he ended up losing. I'll have to see if I can find the story again.

>>3132233
There is a version where the balls on fire and you play with sticks. You see it in a Maya vase.
>>3132390
Ballgame courts were also in the American Southwest among the Pueblo. And in the Caribbean Taino played Batey. The game was probably played a little differently but it's possible it was inspired by the Mesoamerican one.

>>3108902
>tfw no resources left to learn about native cultures in my area
fucking britbongs

>>3133977
What's your area?

>>3132367
>>3132390

My god, the Spanish and their Christin faith must have been horrified/fascinated when they made contact with this impressive and brutal civilization. A total religious clash between peoples. I really am interested in this ball game, i think its fair to say it is one of the first forms of football.

A wealth of information, thank you anons.

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What did the Maya mean by this?

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>>3121583
I like this part of the murals as well

>>3135541
The image you posted made me think of this:
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160216-did-the-maya-create-the-first-comics

>>3121409
yo momma jokes in Olmec culture where no laughing matter.
If you wanted to insult someones momma you had to put in the work so that a thousand years from now people will still know that you co-worker had an ugly mother.

Hey, is that anon who was working with me on tracking down scott/stuart gentling stuff/was in charge of the mesoamerica mega still around?

>>3136688
I made this point in a presentation 2 years ago. Lost the slides unfortunately.

How/Where can I learn Zapotec?

>>3141615
Theres some places in the US I believe that teach it. If not, go to Mexico. But pretty sure at least an online way might be possible too. I mean here in northern california they teach Nahuatl and Yucatec Mayan.

>>3140074
Yep here.

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>>3121891
I know!
we could be in da space n siht by now

>>3144309
You mean amerindian engineering. Spaniards were the spics. Hispanic = from Hispania.

>>3143338
Sorry I never sent another email last night like I said, I'm gonna try to do it tonight but again no promises

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CONQUERED

Any good books about the aztec pantheon and the ways of worship.

>>3149339
>Their*

>>3119222
Why all they have frowny faces?

>>3150890
They were told about the Sp*niard