Lenin

>>3104289
Doesn't get enough credit for Stalin's "work"

Just another corrupt tyrant.

Whilst I don't agree with his politics, to say he wasn't a genius, nor potentially a 'Great Man' would be completely untrue

German agent.

The NEP proves he wasn't an idealistic retard.

>>3104289
Ok.

>>3105019
Whats the NEP?

>>3105066
Going with market socialism for a while instead of "ideologically pure" planning to help the economy recover after all the wars and devastation.

>>3105099
Can you recommend any good sources about the guy? Preferably ones that aren't right or left wing biased lmao

>>3104289
>vanguardism
power hungry retard like the rest of his bolshevik cronies

>>3105011
Well they sure fucked themselves up the ass with that one

>>3105011
Well they sure fucked themselves up the ass with that one

>>3105066
New Economic Policy. Similar to modern China's "state capitalism".

>>3105011
Well they sure fucked themselves up the ass with that one

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>>3104289
He was an opportunistic dictator who took advantage of the Tsar's incompetence and the people's dissatisfaction to start a civil war and establish an autocracy. The government he built spent the next eighty years being plagued by corruption, infighting, and an absolute infestation of mass-murdering sadists, before finally collapsing. He's the chief reason that Russia (and Eastern Europe as a whole) remains an economic backwater dominated by cronyism and repression.
Stalin saved his legacy, it was Lenin who set up the first Gulags and initiated the first purges of non-bolshevik groups that fought in the revolution. Stalin provides an easy scapegoat for lefties who like communism but cannot defend the horrors of the Soviet Union.

>>3105778
The first gulags were set up by the tzaristic regime before.
That regime was all kinds of fucked up already. Enough that most people saw a massive improvement in Lenin.

>>3105066
The New Economic Policy. After imposing harsh economic conditions during the Civil War (War Communism), Lenin switched to the NEP to help the Russian economy recover. It allowed some private trade, for example. Therefore, it was ideologically questionable within the party and Stalin eventually chose not to back it.

Highly idealistic and charismatic leader, used way too often by his party for populist mechanics.The myth became larger than the person, just as planned, but he died too soon. Everything went downhill afterwards.

To this day people goes on for hours on how Lenin was a good man and Stalin was the bad one, like it was just a unfortunate turn of events that took over the revolution, when since day one it was always the plan.

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>>3105895
>The first gulags were set up by the tzaristic regime before.
Yes, Katorga system was repurposed for the new commie government, as well the secret police and other repressing structures.

Anyway, Lenin was full of shit. Hence why he didn't allow Russia to have a democratic process after the Tzar was killed. He employed dirty politics, intimidation and eventually civil war (3 times) just to subvert any chance of Russia resisting his party.
He and his buddies wanted the power instead of someone else having it. It was as simple as that. Their beliefs were completely phony and mostly lies.
Hence why the Kronstadt sailors rebelled when they saw what communism actually looked like. Of course the Soviets then murdered them.
The Bolsheviks did not overthrow the Tsarist regime. They overthrew the government that overthrew the Tsarist regime.

>>3106017
Funny thing is how there's to this day "anarchy-communists" people, considering the communist party exterminated all anarchy allies after using them as cannon fodder.

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>>3105066
Russian Civil War fucking devastated the early USSR, so they thought they should rely on market dynamics and small private ownership for a few years to bring the economy back to normal. The Russian public, particularly in cities, distrusted the NEPmen who they saw as bourgeois outsiders getting rich while they languished in postwar poverty. Soviet politicians were more ambivalent, because while the activities of the NEPmen directly opposed the foundational ideology of the USSR, these activities also developed the Soviet economy and hastened the transition to socialism.

In 1927, new leader Stalin launched his first five year plan which replaced the NEP with a system of heavy industrialization, collectivized agriculture, and technological proliferation.

>>3104289
kike

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>>3106065
>technological proliferation.
>agriculture

This freeze my seeds

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>>3106065
>does no matter how much people we killed, the important part is that people are happy now. Our people, at least. You are with us?

Every time

>>3106041
I don't see the irony there

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>>3106092
What? The Five Year Plans electrified the Soviet countryside and brought collectivized peasants industrial farm equipment.

>>3106156
communist fucking hate anarchists, and yet some anarchists are willing to give it a try

>>3106041
Yeah and Ancoms and MLs hate each other because of that.

The real animosity comes from 1936, when Soviet agents decided that Spanish anarcho-communists could not properly defend their territory and violently seized control of eastern Spain.

>>3106160
>brought collectivized peasants industrial farm equipment.

Let me guess kulaks deserved, amrite

>Suport Lisenkoism

Stalin was a Lamarckist, influenced by Trofim Lysenko. Woe betide anyone who belived in any other evolutionary theory in those days. Also he force industrialization to prepare URSS for a large scale war just like hittler did with germany.

>>3106160
>Our country now have money
>And by country I mean our party!

There's only two ways to defend this. Either you are part of the privileged elite , or a complete tool.

>>3106247
Industrialization began in 1927 retard, a good five years before the Nazis would take power and 12 years before the invasion of Poland.

While Stalin may have expected war with imperialist neighbors to be inevitable, he wasn't industrializing the USSR for the specific purpose of defending against Germany.

>>3104289
Literally sent by the Germans to Russia to stir shit.

>>3105496
>>3105576
>>3105719
Nope, in fact it brought Russia out of the war.

>>3106268

>Either you are part of the privileged elite , or a complete tool.

That was true pre-revolution. After the revolution you had a different class of elites and a improved living conditions.

Yeah sure, not everyone was equal but it was an improvement.

>>3104289
What can be a consensus on a man who replaced an oppressive regime with even more genocidal and oppressive regime that cannot possibly work?
I don't think there's much to discuss so I don't know what's the point.

>>3106286
And 30 years later half of Germany would be under Russian control

>>3106347
What makes you think the USSR was more repressive and genocidal? At least under Soviet times, ethnic minorities could attain high office

>>3106274
>Still avoid to admit Stalin support to psudoscience.

>While Stalin may have expected war with imperialist neighbors to be inevitable, he wasn't industrializing the USSR for the specific purpose of defending against Germany.

Yes, and conjunte invasion of Poland, the German–Soviet Frontier Treaty, and Winter War were a mere strategic defences. Stalin was an imperialist by himself, he wanted expand soviet influence by militar force.

>>3106330
I was talking about modern views on Lenin/Stalin politics you idiot

>Yeah sure, not everyone was equal but it was an improvement.

But you answered already Fucking tool

>>3106373
And yet, due entirely to the policies of Soviet Russia modern central Asia is a political clusterfuck of competing ethnic groups controlled by Russian speaking majorities. And the Aral Sea's gone.

But no! Goyim, the Soviets did nothing! NOTHING!!!!!

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>>3106247
>>3106268
Stalin's industrialization isn't disputed by anyone.

This is a weird hill for you guys to die on

>>3106373
Due to numbers of people killed and level of oppression before and after the Bolsheviks took over.

>>3106373
>tens of millions starved and murdered due to sheer incompetency or malicious and paranoid leadership
>no political opposition or dissent permitted
>but at least this one brown person can join the CCCP

>>3106408
Hardocre commies hate blacks and gays.

>>3106373
Like the jews :^)

>>3106404
Provide statistical evidence suggesting that the USSR was worse than the Russian Empire in that regard

>>3106414
Jews actually fared poorly under Stalin, but Caucasians, Central Asians, and Balts attained high office for essentially the first time

>>3106420
Provide valid reliable sources suggesting that massacres in neighboring countries like Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan and so on never happened or were exaggerated or that collectivization or the actions of the newly established Cheka didn't lead to hundreds of thousands of people killed or imprissoned (or exiled to Siberia) killing more people in two or three years than the tsarists regime throughout the entire century as it's commonly known.

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>>3106401
Dude, he could not achieve that without a repressive authoritarian political machine, he use the state for their own interest.

Volkogonov's biography - the original Russian version (English translation is heavily cut by Shukmann). Robert Service's, if you want 'Freudian' analysis of certain actions of Uljanov, but otherwise identical biography.
It should be noted that Uljanov left very little of biographical information, even if his 'works' has been collected to 56 volumes.

Dzugasvilis innovation was killing party members (Bolseviks) - in other worse: those loyal to Uljanov -, every other form of terror was tought and implemented by Uljanov with the practical help of Iron Felix and Bronstein. He started 'red terror', on his iniative Red okrhana was formed, he insisted on liquidation of money, he started (but retreated - for tactical reasons; NEP was a temporary solution and political control was intensified during it and Chekists made work of foreign investors impossible) forced collectivization of agriculture, he ordered genocide of Don Cossacks, he insisted on 'beating, shooting and hanging' of bourgoise; that is, physical elimination of said 'class'.
What was not completed during his lifetime, was duly continued by Dzugasvili.

'B-but, but if Bronstein, if Kamenev!'. Impossible, neither wanted to do the ungrateful job at Secretariat - which controlled flow of information, especially of personel - which the Georgian was willing to do. Add that to the fact, that he was member in Politbyro and (the Bolshevik) Soviet and there you go: not a change of anyone else succeeding Uljanov.
And Bronstein wasn't exactly 'humanitarian' either and there is absolutely nothing that succeds his rule might been less brutal.

>>3106445
After they were properly assimilated in the "soviet culture" of course.

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>>3106463
This pic is therefore 100% true.
I found out that late Marx and other socialist called Berenstein or something were pretty right about something. They knew that the freer the marker the freer the people. That is correct (and this opinion and the criticism of early Marx work is called revisionism). However they also say that it's good because it predates natural comming of communism (so basically you don't have anything even your wife). As we all known this never happened so I guess I can give those Marxists that they were at least partially right.

>>3106374
Why is Lysenkoism relevant to this conversation? Stalin industrialized the Soviet Union in ways that cannot be denied

>>3106447
That's not how this game works. I'm not denying that brutal action was taken to establish the Soviet Union, and then to ensure that the Stalin clique had full control of power.

YOU made the claim that the Soviet Union was more violent than the Russian Empire but cannot provide a shred of evidence to suggest this.

>>3106484
>so basically you don't have anything even your wife

What the hell are you talking about

>>3106527
That's my reaction to communism too.

>>3106445
Jews were removed from top government positions during the Great purge, but they still remained - up to WW2 - highly overpresented in the party and it's organs. For example Kiev NKVD leadership during the Ukrainian hunger-genocide was made 39% of Jews, Russians closely following and the field personnel was 75% Jewish - a number that stayed steady from 1919 to the mid-30's.
That, of course, doesn't mean shit. After the February revolution and October coup, first time Jews had the possibility of having goverment posts and they of course used that possibility. But majority of Jews did not vote for the 'majority' wing of Russian Social Democratic Party - or the 'minority' (but most who voted the SD party, did vote the 'minorities'), but the Bund and especially the Zionists (Jewish nationalists wanting to form Jewish state in Palestine).
After Bolshevik coup and cementing of their hold to power, there obviously was no other choice but the Bolsheviks and thus Jews joined in high numbers.

It is not hard to understand why the muzhik tought of 'Jewish conspiracy': with the revolution and coup, it was the first time they (80% communal peasants, never visiting Peter and Moscow and especially no the Pale) first and foremost saw Jews at all and on the position power.

>>3106484
Nah m8 Marxists don't want to abolish either personal property or monogamy

>>3106564
Or countries?

>>3106543
Yeah Trotsky was probably at this point the most powerful Jewish official in modern history

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>>3106493
>Why is Lysenkoism relevant to this conversation?

Because show the very nature of Stalin favoritism in Lysenko over his psudoscientific bullshit, Also over 3,000 biologists were imprisoned, fired, or executed for attempting to oppose Lysenkoism at one time and overall, scientific research in genetics was effectively destroyed until the death of Stalin in 1953. Due to Lysenkoism, crop yields in the USSR actually declined as well.

>>3106567
Marxists are antistatists. Nations ought to be ruled not by governments, but by the people.

>>3106571
Jewish official, who didn't regard himself Jewish: to Kiev rabbi asking for help against pogroming Don Cossacs, he told that he wasn't Jewish and turned his back.

>>3106579
>Marxists are antistatists.

hahaha Central planning of economy without central authority is doom to fail.

>>3106603
There are so many versions of socialism. I'm pretty sure the most classic ones did want to end private property. Owen's socialist concept was also supposed to ban marriages.

>>3105304
gonna post a book chart on him soon

>>3106618
But yeah the entire point of marxism is that it's doomed to fail. Again and again. But the history is quite interesting from the very beginning until Lenin's death. There was something incredibly creepy about this early period. It really seemed like an international threat. Stalin never abandoned the plans to spread the revolution but he was more pragmatic.
Also thank God for 1920.

>>3105019
It's a mystery which communists believed their bullshit. At least a couple understood that it's not effective but the idea was right. Kim Philby had a major breakdown when he found out the truth about the socialist paradise.
Stalin enjoyed spartan conditions.
For some officials in the late Cold War period the one purpose of the system was to support their priviledged lives.

>>3106618
Not all the socialist are marxist (like ricardian socialism by example), but all the marxist are socialist or aim to achieve that.

>>3106589
Based desu

>>3106618
Private property means property that generates capital, like a farm or a factory. Some socialists believe private property should be parceled out equally, while others believe it should be owned collectively.

No socialist has proposed the socialization of personal property, like your shoes or computer.

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>>3105066

>>3106916
>No socialist has proposed the socialization of personal property, like your shoes or computer.

The problem with that is if you want to achieve that level of colectivization of the means of production you need a central autority who control every aspect of the process of food, shoes, pc, etc, even the choices of the people are under the control and vigilance of the system. This is what classical marxism advocate.

>>3106484
this post is dildos

>>3106472
this

>>3106571
>disraeli
>brandeis
>bernard baruch
>sundry jews in habsburg hungary and austria who, if not high bureacratic officials, army officers or influential at court, were some of the riches people in the empire and a lot of whom were even granted hereditary nobility.
i suppose trotsky probably held the most military and coercive power of any jewish person up to that time but there had been powerful jewish people before

>>3106574
Not that guy, but like a lot of things in the USSR there were huge failures mostly caused by ideological nonsense but there were equally stunning scientific advances. Biology was just one field among dozens of others, and genetics is just one facet of biology, albeit it a very essential one. Yes, soviets could be totally anti-science for rather arbitrary or clearly ideological reasons, but equally essential to Communist Ideology was the supremacy of science. The supremacy of science and its use to advance humanity was perhaps even more privileged in the USSR than even the West itself, which is why you see an exponential leap in scientific funding in the transition from the Tsarist to the Soviet regime, even though the Soviet society and economy were thrown into chaos by the Civil War and its aftermath. And ironically enough the very means of Stalinist oppression like the gulags actually created huge prisons of scientists (arrested for whatever reason), and prison-science complexes were tremendously productive.

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>>3105304
>>3104289
Lenin chart completed

>>3107027
Nah Marx never really speculated on the exact mechanisms by which the proletariat would distribute resources.

He left that to Lenin and Kropotkin and the Dutch Council Communists and Bookchin.

>>3107265
I find nice how you can justified all this amount of bullshit with such romantic idealization of science and comunism.

> Yes, soviets could be totally anti-science for rather arbitrary or clearly ideological reasons. but equally essential to Communist Ideology was the supremacy of science.

This is no very scientific thinking but contradictory and biased. they mixed politics with science for their own selfish interest, just like the west.

>ironically enough the very means of Stalinist oppression like the gulags actually created huge prisons of scientists (arrested for whatever reason), and prison-science complexes were tremendously productive.

Yes, they were productive in the production of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.

Idealistic tard
Diverted energy from truly humanitarian movements to feel like a big "revolutionary."
In reality he was also a huge brainlet

>>3104289
>just an idiot

>>3106017
Also kept a serf in a cage and probably permitted the gruesome murder of the royal family

>>3106373
>bloodthirsty regime
>but at least they muh minoritiez
Jesus, don't you idiots ever grow out of your elementary school conditioning?

>>3107667
>nah Marx never really speculated on the exact mechanisms by which the proletariat would distribute resources.
So the literal founder of communism didn't know how achieve it. What a surprise this bullshit didn't work even when marxist are practically improvising in every step.

>>3105066
One step backwards, two step forward

>>3105778
>it was Lenin who set up the first Gulag
The gulags were Trotsky's idea.

>>3105099
What is market socialism? Tried looking it up but couldn't wrap my head around it.

>>3106472
I love everything about this post

Indirectly responsible for more deaths than any other person in history.

His intentions were truly good however, which makes him the most tragically ironic person in history.

>>3106162
Plain anarchists (those who have the circled A as their symbol) are anarcho-communists, dude.

>>3105778
>dominated by cronyism and repression.
as all countries should be

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>>3110838
>The gulags were Trotsky's idea

At least the traitor got what he deserved.

He won Russian battle royal against dozens of autistics of the same caliber. Maybe he wasn't the perfect revolutionary, but tactical genius for sure.

>>3112014
More like a political genius, a manipulator of the masses.

>>3110838
Lenin had a big hand in setting them up, to say otherwise is to be willfully ignorant.

>>3109923
>justified all this amount of bullshit with such romantic idealization
who the fuck says i'm idealizing anything? scientific advances were made at the cost of political freedoms, but it's not for me to say whether the costs were worth it or not, that's the job of someone much more knowledgeable than I am.
>This is no very scientific thinking but contradictory and biased.
what are you even saying? did i ever say that sicence and politics were inseparable in the soviet union? any advance in science made would always be "proof" of the superiority of socialism in the party's eyes, that's quite natural in a one-party state where the party needs to uphold its ideological legitimacy.

>Yes, they were productive in the production of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.
and?? those were all deadly weapons no doubt, but all of which require a lot of intellectual brilliance to create, which the conditions of those complexes created although, ironically, they were symbols of the police-state's repressive power but also its ability to consolidate resources and intellectually capable people all in one place. the fact that the soviets focused on building deadly weapons, anyway, is not so much a symptom of militarism as of paranoia that the west was out to destroy the ussr and the country needed to be armed to the teeth to prevent that from happening, a reasoning that was apparently confirmed by the utter destruction of the nazi invasion of WWII.

>>3106123

It's awful funny to think that intellectual marxists were disgusted with the "primitive" tribalism that came with nationalism, so they developed a system that benefitted their "people" and reeducated/murdered all non-hackers. They pretended as if they were not playing upon the same tribalist barbarism which they critiqued.

>>3109932

> Tfw too smart for civility

>>3106065
I like this pic because it shows how the cultural Marxist meme is in large part bogus. The communists were for the most part very conservative in terms of mores.

>Lenin

Autism scale: 5/10. Lenin was the frontman of the movement, who was both clever and charismatic enough to stand up to debates, lead meetings, contribute to the ideology and do hand on dirty work if it came to it.

However his problem was it painted a huge target on him, and it was only a matter of time before the bullets found their homes.

>Stalin:

Autism level: 7/10. Stalin was the man of action, the point man, the shooter. He got to where he ended up because he was unafraid killing or removing his opponents, either in person or in the abstract.

This trait followed Stalin ever since his train robbing days as a young man and small time criminal.

>Trotsky:

Autism level 10/10. Trotsky was the thinker among the big three Russian communist leaders, the big thinker, the ideas guy, the librarian. But he was also discovered to be capable of great military leadership as he led the Red Army to victory in the bloody, brutal Russian civil war.

He was the one if given the chance would have realized the best version of communism. Unfortunately he wasn't brutal enough to kill off Stalin and he was too much of a beta to take ultimate leadership of the party.

>>3109976
Marx didn't invent communism. Philosophers and social activists were talking about the potential for a communal future decades before Marx wrote the Communist Manifesto.

What Marx did was establish a groundbreaking paradigm for the analysis of capitalism and other historical modes of production, and use this method of analysis to determine that unavoidable elements of capitalism made inevitable the eventual replacement with a communal economy.

>>3113572
Then why don't support nazism instead? they practically did the same things (but lose the war of course), you can literally justified whatever genocidal regime with those argument.

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>>3114811
>Marx didn't invent communism.

>>3106463
When has capitalist industrialization ever succeded without a repressive authoritarian political machine? Authoritarianism is necessary for industrialization, regardless if you're left or right wing. For example- every capitalist "Asian Tiger" was authoritarian.

>>3114811
>What Marx did was establish a groundbreaking paradigm for the analysis of capitalism and other historical modes of production, and use this method of analysis to determine that unavoidable elements of capitalism made inevitable the eventual replacement with a communal economy.

Classical marxism had the Hegelian tendency to try to extrapolate from history, that has not been academically respectable for a long time, and Marx’s actual predictions were refuted quickly as wages rose along with profits, instead of shrinking. Marx’s theory of historical development was disproved during Marx’s lifetime and, like the Ptolemaic theory of the universe, ceased to be scientific. History did not progress as predicted by Marxian theory.

If you think Lenin and Stalin were bad people, you're fucking retarded.

Before the revolution, 90% of Russians lived the same way they had lived since the Middle Ages. No education, no electricity, no access to even basic healthcare, oppressed and exploited by kulaks and landowners, zero hope for any kind of social mobility or improvement in their living standards. Being a peasant in Tsarist Russia was barely different from being a slave.

The amount of counter-revolutionaries who were justifiably killed were 1%, if that, of the people who learned to read, got access to healthcare, got free higher education, managed to advance upwards in society thanks to talent and merit, and overall had way better lives than in pre-revolutionary Russia.

There is no reason to believe things would get better if capitalism remained in Russia. Who would profit from teaching penniless peasants basic health and literacy skills? Russia was on the same development level as India pre-WW1. If it remained capitalist, it would be similar to India today- extremely poor, undeveloped, drowning in feudal backwardness.

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>>3115206
Central planning and hieraldical order are requisite for a good framed society, however when socialists complain about this in capitalism they seems to forget the same actions are necesary to instaurate collectivisation and coordination of production, they are hipocrats.

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>>3115244
>The amount of counter-revolutionaries who were justifiably killed were 1%

They well deserved.

>>3115270
Except capitalist industrialization mostly benefits capitalists and government cronies, whereas socialist industrialization benefits the entire socialist society

>>3115288
Trotskyites were insane and deserved worse. Like US neocons, they wanted to invade the entire world. They didn't care about building up and industrializing the Soviet Union, since they believed the only way socialism could survive was by spreading revolution to Western Europe by force. If Trotsky or his cronies were in control of the Soviet Union, WW2 would have started in the '20s and the USSR would have lost the war.

>>3115270
>hierarchal order
>socialism

Central planning is not a necessity, democratic workers control of the workplace is a major tenet of socialism perverted by the USSR.

>>3104289
He wasn't really either. He wasn''t a good revolutionary leader, he just sorta showed up at the right time and did some speeches. It wasn't his fault that the Revolution happened, he was merely caught up in the whirlwind of it. If it wasn't through mostly luck and outside chance his Bolshevik party would've never risen to power.
That being said he wasn't an idealistic retard either. He was an incredibly smart intellectual who could fire up a crowd and had enough political knowledge and managerial skills to lead the Bolsheviks to power, and enough intelligence to help them win the Civil War. Winning the Civil War alone is a miracle, let alone rising to power in the first place.
He's largely just exaggerated as a leader in terms of his ruthlessness. He was, for most of his life, just a Marxist nerd who wrote pamphlets day in and day out and read a shit ton. If it wasn't for World War One and the Germans being desperate for Russia to collapse he wouldn't have amounted to anything other than a 20th Century NEET.

>>3115359
>Central planning is not a necessity, democratic workers control of the workplace is a major tenet of socialism perverted by the USSR.

Why ancoms think collectivization in large scale don't need central planning with a central authority?, they don't even achieve anything but failed social experiment like catalunya and free territory

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>>3115318
>Except capitalist industrialization mostly benefits capitalists and government cronies, whereas socialist industrialization benefits the entire socialist society

>socialist society.

More like the party members comrade.

>Trotskyites were insane and deserved worse.

Every lefty it's a little insane. they even cannibalize themselves when they have the opportunity.

>>3114836
Except thats fucking wrong. Soviet union lasted a half century after nazism got destroyed. It didnt jist stop existing after the great terror and coolectivization. Nazisms ultimate goal always required extermination or sibjigaion of socalled inferior peoples and its means of achieving thos, through launching a huge bloody war of conquest and extermination, is what beought its demise. On the ither hand after stalin died the soviet union "regularized" and while authoritarian never commitwd genocide nor was that the goal of the soviets. Stalin killed tons of people to but it was not out of any genocidal motives. Now you can say quantitatively, the death counts are no different between nazism and stalinism, but as i say genocide isnt inherent in communism as nazi proved to be in its short lifespan

>>3115432
>It's not genocide if we kill people by equal.

>>3115455
Actually its not genocide. Thats a question scholars havent come to agreement over for decades. And you didnt answer my question anyway. Nazism self destructed because of its warmongering genocidal agenda, the soviets dropped mass murder when stalin died, opening the question whether it was more stalin or international conditions (or perceptions of those conditions) than the soviet ideology itself that brought about the excesses of the 1930s. It was clear from the beginning however that nazism under hitlers direction was always intent on genocidal war until taken to its ultimate conclusion

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>>3115605
Stalin and Hitler were both a disaster to europe, they don't deserve any sympathy or praise.

>>3115421
Except workers and peasants made up the the party. Zero workers and peasants made up the capitalist class.

>>3115618
Stalin and Hitler were the saviors of Europe. If they didn't start fighting with each other, the world would be finally free of Jewish supremacist domination.

>>3104289
>Commie
>great leader

Choose one

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>>3115618

I know know about this. Stalin was a complete savage and murdered his own people. Hitler loved his people but lost the war. There are admirable traits in regards to hitler, and Stalins tenacity in the face of utter defeat was rather credible, but he was terrible to his people.


Hitler is very admirable in my point of view for his love for the German people and his willingness to fight against all odds against the global power structure. We are talking ballz bro.

>>3115645
>Zero workers and peasants made up the capitalist class.

So all the peasant and workers are completly forbiden to associate themselves and own means of production in capitalism? dude what you describe is not capitalism, is feudalism.

>>3115928
>It's ok if you murder people, so long as you love your own!
that's rather dumb logic

>>3115928
And Hitler drove his lovely people to the hell, he lose the war and Sacrificed his own people for stupid militar expansionism, and now all germans all literally forbidden the feel proud of their own nation, just for this mussolini fanboy.

>>3104289
Simply look at the evidence.

Even the Western "consensus" acknowledges that the peasants have been fucked over since the advent of Capitalist-sponsored kleptocracy.

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>>3116024

It sucks does it not? He is bad because he lost. We are talking decades of demonization in regards to the german people in movies, books, shows, and video games. This has had a huge effect on the german psyche. They were just people drafted into the military to fight for their people.

>>3116077
>He is bad because he lost.
let's get facts straight please. his warmongering was awful for germans and, most importantly, for the millions of civilians his subordinates deliberately killed. holy fuck, you /pol/acks just love to whitewash everything to protect your supreme leader.

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>>3116276

Lol, you actually believe the radicalization of the Third Reich happened prior to the Germans losing the war?

I love how you refuse to admit any admirable traits about that man and his achievements and ambition.

But yeah, demonization of the German people is wrong and needs to stop. Nations like Russia, china, Japan and turkey brush their atrocities under the rug while germany is forced to own up to them.

Seems fair.

>>3106373
Gee I dont know maybe the ethnic cleansing and colonization perpetrated against Lithuanians,Latvians, Estonians, karelians, ingrians, Finns, Ukrainians, cossacks, tatars, kalmyks, chechens, Germans, Koreans, yakuts, chuvash, udmurts and basically every other ethnicity that had the misfortune of living under Soviet rule. Not Georgians tho funny that.

>>3116324
>Lol, you actually believe the radicalization of the Third Reich happened prior to the Germans losing the war?
have you read a book? because if you say this i highly doubt you having anything more than a superficial knowledge of the third reich.

>refuse to admit any admirable traits about that man
list me some admirable traits, please. and even if you do, i can and will dismiss them because i guarantee you any of those perceived qualities are highly subjective and debatable at best. Who you may see as an inspiring orator, for example, ( and whose language i highly doubt you're even versed in, making you unqualified to be a judge of his rhetoric) I see a rabble rousing demagogue whose rhetoric was despicable in its hatred and antisemitism.
>ambition
a lot of people have ambition. ambition isn't inherently good or bad. your jewish boogeyman is also ambitious so why not also worship the jewish boogeyman as well?

>But yeah, demonization of the German people is wrong and needs to stop.
who is demonizing germans? I only ever see this bullshit peddled by /pol/acks. germans themselves have a national culture that is very ashamed of the nazi past, but I really don't think thats the same as other people hating germans. Even if nazis are the universal badguy, people aren't idiots; they know the difference between a german now and the nazis then (even if that view of nazis is biased).

> Nations like Russia, china, Japan and turkey brush their atrocities under the rug while germany is forced to own up to them.
so? the West loaths those countries for doing so and I've heard many people admire the germans for their owning up to their past. What might seem "wimpiness" to you can just as easily be interpreted as moral courage or moral honesty instead of delusional nationalism. One can just as easily be proud of one's prussian heritage or german federalist, for example, while shunning the nazi past, which was actually contrary to the age-old germa federal tradition.

>>3116423
> Not Georgians tho funny that.
yeah you don't know anything about soviet history. georgians, ironically, were treated quite like shit by stalin because georgia had been a bastion of menshevism during the russian revolution.

>>3116437
As far as I know Georgians were never subject to mass deportations based on ethnicity and colonization with ethnic russians or other deported ethnicities. If you have a source to the contrary do say. Im talking about ethnic cleansing not persecution of individuals.

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>>3116431
>>3116431

I've read many books anon, i just have a different opinion then you on these particular historical figures and events.

Main stream movies, video games, TV shows and books have been demonizing and attacking the German people for decades. You have to be living under a rock if you have not noticed it.

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>>3116454
you maybe right, i'll post some relevant excerpts from a book i have dled on the subject

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>>3116690

The difference between Communism and Capitalism: Under Capitalism it's dog-eat-dog; under Communism, it's just the reverse

>>3115177
Communism as a concept dates back to the early 19th century, well before Marx

>>3115230
Historical progress hasn't defied Marxist theory. The conditions Marx described are just as applicable of 2017 as they are of 1847.

>>3107348
What the fuck? Richard Pipes is mentioned and there is 'General works on the Russian Revolution' section, but his 'Russian revolution' and 'Russia under the Bolshevik regime' is not listed, but Figes 'history' is instead? And where is Chamberlin's? Pipes also has chapter devoted to the all totalitarian states in his '...Bolshevik regime', of their princible similarity and differences, if any.

>>3116699
What book?

>>3118244
Yeah, the correct term for it is bunch of unfalsifiable nonsense

>>3115928
>Hitler loved his people
didnt love the 6th army very much then i guess

>>3116504
>I've read many books anon
>doesn't list a SINGLE one

>>3118244
>The conditions Marx described are just as applicable of 2017 as they are of 1847.

Pure ideology :^)

>>3115244
>Before the revolution, 90% of Russians lived the same way they had lived since the Middle Ages. No education, no electricity, no access to even basic healthcare, oppressed and exploited by kulaks and landowners, zero hope for any kind of social mobility or improvement in their living standards. Being a peasant in Tsarist Russia was barely different from being a slave.
[citation needed]

>>3118244
Then, Why didn't capitalism turn into socialism as Marx planned it?

>>3107019
the anime girl

>>3118297
It wasnt supposed to be on the russian revolution but more on lenin which is why i didnt put that much thought into that general work section. I havent read so much on the russian revolution either which maked this an amateur effort. Ill revise the chart with your comments in mind. But why is figes so bad in your opinion? I read natashas dance and it was pretty thorough if more anecdotale than analytical

>>3118936
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Russia#cite_ref-7

>The healthcare conditions in Tsarist Russia have been considered "appaling".[7] In 1912, an interdepartmental commission concluded that 'a vast part of Russia has as yet absolutely no provisions for medical aid'.

The 1897 census found that approximately 33% of men and 14% of women in European Russia were literate. In contrast, 80% of French, British, and Germans were literate at this time.

The mass campaigns against illiteracy are inarguable, even the most anti-communist historians admit it was a remarkable advance

Isn't it kind of pathetic that you weren't able to find this information on your own, even though it takes max 5 minutes of armchair internet "research"? Shows, IMO, the eternal lazy, worthless character of reactionaries.

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>>3120194
>The mass campaigns against illiteracy are inarguable, even the most anti-communist historians admit it was a remarkable advance

It was a great advance in propaganda, to further extend their reach to the iliteral peasants , the Bolsheviks built reading rooms in villages across the country. Serving as a propaganda center rather than library, a literate peasant would act as the room's "Red Reader" and lead discussions on texts sent by the Party directive with members of the local community. Attendance was most often mandatory, as the reading rooms proved to be one of the Party's most successful propaganda tools, where campaigns would take shape and the locals would hear about happenings in the outside world.

>>3118447
Thomas de Waal- The Caucasus: an Introduction
I was gonna post more excerpts but I got tired at the time. I'll post more later

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>>3104289
wall street puppet just like his buddy Trotsky

>>3122763
(You)

>>3122782
wow you sure showed me, that (You) completely erases the fact that wall street funded Trotsky's freedom, immigration and luxurious life in the US before they sent him to play revolutionary

>>3122800
(You)

>>3104289
If I had Vrangel, Denikin, and Lenin in front of me and only two bullets, I'd shoot Lenin twice