Did we lose in Vietnam?

>>3100766
No you just failed to achieve all your strategic and political goals.

>>3100766
Who are "we"

>>3100766
We killed a shit-ton of Communists/Vietnamese, personally I call that a win. Formally however, that is up to debate. Since we failed to have any meaningful effect and since the south fell anyways. All we did was get a bunch of our young men killed for no real reason. We also created a generation of liberals, take that as you will.

>>3100776
Vietnam won the war, denying that is PragerU tier delusion

>>3100802
Vietnam also lost the war :>

Okay if you wanted to be smarmy with semantics, the war ended in an peace agreement and then the US left. Then the North violated it and took over the South so technically the US did not "lose" the war.

But in terms of strategy it failed to keep up their client state. It poisoned international relations and made men like Giap and Ho Chi Minh look like saints and the USSR had the "moral high ground".

Internally it also tore the USA apart and its influence is still with us today.

Even the biggest cynic would look at the number of lives lost and money spent as a complete waste of time and effort for no real gain.

I mean kinda. If you play some fps game on endless hoarde mode and lasted 20 fucking years before you finally said enough i quit would you call that a loss?

>>3100766
Yes unironically because of betrayal by marxists and other antisemities. Fuck Cronkite.

>>3101011
Yes

>>3100766
Nah we managed to kick out evil capitalism of our shithole and that's whats important

>>3100766
Yes, /his/ lost vietnam.

We didn't lose. Its a tactical retreat.

the purpose of war is to force your political will on another and make them do what you want.

The USA ran out on political will and pulled out on what was essentially a draw. Then Watergate happened and the midterm election went to the Democrats. Who then promptly pulled US treaty obligated supported to South Vietnam. Which caused the South to fall to the North two years after the US leaves with a peace treaty.

>>3100766

We won. Once Nixon took over, he removed the red tape.

We did one of the most extensive air campaign against what was nominally one of the hardest AA defense systems in the world, even developing SEAD tactics or "wild weasel" tactics to defeat electronic air defenses in addition to experimental guided munitions.

After the failure and repulsing of the Tet offensive, the Viet Cong were effectively broken, and the NVA were put on their side of the DMZ.

We literally bombed Hanoi into the ground. At the Paris peace talks, they signed a treaty which named us the victors of the conflict.

Vietnam wouldn't fuck with Nixon after he face raped them to the extent that he did. He didn't ineffectually putz around like Johnson, who on a whim would demand completely erroneous strategic goals and institute a draft for what was nominally a peace keeping action.

However, that was not the case with Ford. Being seen as a pussy, and being hamstrung by a democratic congress, they reneged on the treaty which would have provided South Vietnam critical munitions and hardware in their fight against the north. Which is ironic, because it was a democratic congress and administration that got us into that mess in the first place, namely to keep French interests in NATO salient only to have them withdraw from integrated command only a year after our involvement.

But I shed no tears for SV. Their government was hapless, incompetent and beyond corrupt as a result of French colonialism.

However, as a result of American commitment, many nations in SEA were galvanized into destroying Marxist and communist elements in their country, particularly the Philippines.

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>>3100777
Probably these people

Yes. We lost because of scumbag pinko commie traitors at home. Maybe if we rounded up the liberal traitors and put them in camps, we would have won in Nam and the leftists would shut up. But we were too weak to do that.

Oh muh rights, muh constitutions, muh civil liberties. Boo-hoo too bad leftists. You ain't going to have any rights under communism and you sure as hell won't have any rights under Islam either.

>>3101510
the level of unfiltered ideology in this mess

Do we have a military base in Vietnam?

Then we lost.

>>3100766
Are you South Vietnam? Then yes, you lost. But we took out 3,500,000 of your sworn enemies, so you're welcome.

>>3101297
>After the failure and repulsing of the Tet offensive, the Viet Cong were effectively broken, and the NVA were put on their side of the DMZ.

This is the part that bothers me the most. They lost every single engagement they instituted on Tet, and after its dismal failure they took counsel to see whether they could wring any concessions out of their surrender, or whether they had to surrender unconditionally.

Instead, the John Kerrys and the Jane Fondas and the Dan Rathers spun Tet into a win for them, and a public nightmare for us.

>>3100766
>invade country
>not only gain no territory whatsoever but end up losing every inch of land your allies hold
>enemy slaughters and tortures allies
>enemy holds country to this day

Seriously how the fuck is there any question?

>>3100788
By the same token it is "debatable" that the British won the American revolution.

>>3100788
We created most of those "communists" by making illiterate rice farmers fear for their homes and families enough that they took up arms against our invading army.

>>3101284
>implying that is any different from a retreat
>implying ordering a retreat doesnt imply an admission of defeat

>>3101510
If you hate the Constitution that much why don't you go live in North Korea then? We didn't put "liberals" in concentration camps because were not a junta like some of the allied countries we propped up during the Cold War. You sound like a totalitarian creep.

>>3101510
>muh political influence on some jungle shithole that matters for nothing

Yeah american civil liberties are sooooooo insignificant in comparison

>>3101699
No, itd be like if brittain agreed to help someone else not be overrun by commies and they did so for 20 years but the commies never stopped coming and the brits at gome were tired of their brothers getting drafted to fight commies in a jungle on the other side of the world for purely geopolitical reasons so brittain finally said sorry we cant help you anymore. Brittian didnt lose by leaving, the allie they were helping did

>>3101720
>its like the british fought on the side of their supporters for a while and got tired and gave up

Yeah thats what im saying

>>3101711
Violence and oppression are okay when committed by people who vaguely agree with my political leanings.

>>3101729
Yea but it was an actual brittish colony vietnam had no relation to america besides commie hate

>>3101738
We had business ties there and they were a French colony just before the war.

>>3101718
They are insignificant and laugh now because you won't be getting your precious "rights" under Islam and under communism either. What have muh civil liberties have done that stopped evil doers. I'm sick of the ACLU rooting for the enemies, it was treason what these red-diaper babies did to our boys in Vietnam and undermining our war effort at home. And to the user that told me I should go live in North Korea, you should go live in North Korea and who are you calling a totalitarian creep for? Its you that's cucking for Islam right now and rooting for communism.

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>>3100812

Communism in general is always going to be entropic.

>>3101749
Lol ur stupid go back to raging in facebook comment sections and fucking your sister

>>3101747
>20th century
>business ties
By this time everyone had business ties with everyone

>>3101749
Dude we lost vietnam and we're still okay, it was not a war of survival, use your fucking brain for 10 seconds.

>>3101297

>Which is ironic, because it was a democratic congress and administration that got us into that mess in the first place, namely to keep French interests in NATO salient only to have them withdraw from integrated command only a year after our involvement.

The eternal Gall strikes again.

>>3101297

>However, as a result of American commitment, many nations in SEA were galvanized into destroying Marxist and communist elements in their country, particularly the Philippines.

HOL UP SO YOU BE SAYIN

WE WUN THE GRAND STRATEGY N' SHIET?

>>3101772
Yes it was and we are in a fight for survival today against Islam but people are too scared of losing their "rights" and being offended by the police and the army doing its job today.

>>3101297
That would mean that we ALMOST won but then fucked it up at the end, you wouldn't say you won a baseball game if you were ahead going into the bottom of the 9th but the catcher dropped the last strike and allowed the runners on base to score and lose you the game. (Youd also be retarded to say that total hits or something are what really matter)

>>3101510

>We lost because of scumbag pinko commie traitors at home

No we didn't. Most Americans supported the war until late into it. And contrary to belief, the majority of Soldiers in the field were volunteers, not conscripts. If you compared Vietnam and WWII in terms of percentages among recruits, the Baby boomers had much higher rates of voluntary enlistment than the so called "greatest generation."

>>3101817
>a religion representing less than 1% of the population doesnt like your rights
>better dispose of those rights so they cant take them away

Go back to pol.

>>3101831

No, we won, South Vietnam lost after our withdrawl.

A more apt analogy if we're using baseball is to use high school baseball; the Varsity won their game, JV lost their game against the same team, but the series and championship was won.

>>3101842
No it was one team with one objective and it lost. The varsity guys got tired and declared victory at the seventh inning stretch and went home, trusting the jv guys to finish the game, who then got steamrolled by the opposing team and lost.

>>3101837
But, but muh rights, go back to pol because I'm scared of losing my rights and muh civil liberties and muh freedumbs. I don't care about your dumb rights and your snowflake religion that gets offended soooooo easily.

Did we read the Nazis their rights when they were fighting our civilization? No! Did great civilizations sit down and hold hands singing kumbaya and handing out playdoh to the offended people because they're "wittle feewings got hurt?" No! Are we going to hand out playdoh and coloring books when some "civilian" gets arrested and then complains about to the ACLU? No!

Is this bait or are Americans here actually denying they lost the Vietnam War?

>>3100766
The US nominally won but it was more or less a stalemate when they made peace. However, virtually everything they fought for in Vietnam was lost within 2 years of US withdrawal. To the extent that it was a victory, it was a Pyrrhic one.

>>3101894
Lol ur stupid

Idk why im even responding to your obvious b8 but sometimes taking away rights is neccesary to stop an existential threat, but it is not warranted by every threat. Id like to remind you that we did beat the Nazis quite soundly without taking away and rights, and terrorism and north korea are a joke in comparison.

>>3101903
>Is this bait or are Americans here actually denying they lost the Vietnam War?
Nationalism is one hell of a drug.

Examples for nationalism-induced denial of reality:
>>3101817
>>3101894
>>3101917

>>3101903
Its actually a pretty common opinion in the states.

>>3100766
Communism did not infected more countries, so no.

>>3101903

Nobody is denying anything. Just people who are actually ignorant to the geopolitical outcomes of the Vietnam conflict.

The US won its Vietnam war. We accomplished our strategic objectives, forced the North to negotiating table and were declared victors. We then withdrew.

South Vietnam lost its Vietnam continuation war because of political betrayal, incompetence and idiocy.

>>3101011
Your analogy doesn't work because our objective wasn't to survive the hoard. Our objective was to prevent the political unification of Vietnam under a communist government.

>>3101937
I'm stupid? I love this country and sometimes you are right we need to give away some rights, but that's not far enough snowflake. This isn't bait at all, I am being serious. People are too offended about sacrificing for their country, well not anymore snowflake. When people wake up to the threat Islam poses to our civilization, you won't be crying about your rights being violated or your feelings getting hurt from army checkpoints in your town. Suck it up buttercup. Martial law isn't about your feelings and your "rights" its about freedom and your country's survival.

>>3102018
>Martial Law and freedom.

Wow that is some serious Orwellian shit right now from you.

>>3101894
HAHAHA

I love how hard this guy thinks he is.

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>>3102018

>>3101937
>North Korea is a joke in comparison
Maybe if you live in Europe. Germany never posed any significant threat to the United States. Meanwhile the North Koreans have nuclear weapons aimed at Seoul and Tokyo. You know the capitals of our allies? You know the ones that are among the largest cities on earth. IIRC Tokyo has like 38 million people and Seoul has 25 million, and NK could easily deliver a nuclear weapon to Seoul, and most people don't think it will be long before they'll have the capacity to hit Tokyo. Hell they wouldn't even need to nuke Seoul they have like 10,000 artillery pieces aimed at it. We don't even have enough troops on the peninsula right now to stop an invasion if Kim decides he feels like it.

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yes yes yes yes .
red pill alert , we were never there to win.
bell industry's.
Clintons.
white water.
they posted all the names of our dead on our news.
operation bleed the usa dry.
then they over police use start the drug war aka civil war.
doctorial agenda begins , mental health is an arrest offence.
gulf war to kill off the stragglers, another cia opp to bleed us out we win the war just to reset for Iraqi freedom all that did was destabilize prep for cia alkiada to rush it.
and further bleed out.
we are defeated.
we are letting the cia bleed us dry soon we all die.
even JFK has risen for the revenge that is about to be unfurled in the house of the traitors.

>>3102018
Lol islam has been a threat since 1500 years ago and we're still here, you alarmist retard.

No one here will take you seriously if you call everyone who disagrees with you a snowflake, this is not pol.

>>3100766
No, you just lost over 50k men and a Gazillion dollars without achieving any strategic goal.

>>3102079
I dont really care desu

>>3102208
Yeah but not much longer cuck. Keep living in denial as white genocide continues and Europe gets more and more Islamized and taken over by Islam.

>>3100766
Unfortunately :(
Hopefully the men who've learned from our mistakes in that conflict are the very same influencing our current strategies.

Like Schwarzkopf Jr.

>>3102252
yeah im a cuck for not supporting the particular extremist solution you pulled out of your ass

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>>3102252
>muh huwhite genocide!

grand scheme no, short scheme objectives were not reached

>>3101510
Honestly cannot wait for Yanktards to get their internet usage capped by Verizon so 4chan can go back to not being completely shit.

>>3100766
Does South Vietnam still exist?

>>3102540

hello new friend

>>3102539
I get what you're saying but you have to consider that the whole Cold War and 'Domino Theory' thing mattered a lot more to the US than to Vietnam. Apart from maybe a few ideologues in Saigon and Hanoi, everyone just cared about the future of their village and their own country (Vietnam didn't even get along with their communist neighbors). The North got to decide the future of the country, and that was what they were fighting for.

I think the only fair way to say the US didn't lose the war was to say it wasn't really a war for them at all in the sense that it could be won or lost as the future of Vietnam didn't matter much at all to life in the USA. But if we're calling it a real war, the US objectively lost as it failed to complete its objective of protecting the South and allowed its enemy to succeed in all of their goals and all my fellow burgers should pull their heads out of their asses to accept

>>3102540
4chan was always shit

>>3103026
Yeah really, I thought everyone knew that. Whats really changed it how popular it is.

>>3101510
>Suspending constitutional rights because they didn't like sending americans to die in a futile war.

>>3100788
>swarms of brave martyrs die for a cause
>they see that cause through

Killing more of them just makes it a prouder victory

>>3100838
>Even the biggest cynic would look at the number of lives lost and money spent as a complete waste of time

Seems pretty standard for a cynic if you ask me :)c

>>3101278
heheh

>>3100802
>Vietnam won the war
Funny way of spelling "China".

Vietnam also didn't win the war, the American press lost it.

>>3100766
Tactical victory, strategic loss.

>>3101297
>hapless, incompetent and beyond corrupt as a result of French colonialism.

Sidebar for /his/ norps - Is this generally the case with France? Do they birth shitty countries? Or is it colonialism in general?
I feel like once the mother country leaves, the new government has nothing to do with the old, and tends to moves in the opposite direction culturally, a la India, Argentina, the U.S.

Also Italy usually carries the stereotype of being the undisciplined, silly, and unorganized one.

>>3101894

I am legitimately concerned about your mental health.

>its a Americans think the Vietnam War was about them episode again

Is it really that fun bragging how many people your country have killed?

>>3101297
Quality bait

>>3103352
It's pretty common for the French to shit the bed when they're making a country.

There's really no French equivalent to Hong Kong or Botswana.

I presume it's because they keep trying to convert the natives to Catholicism, which monopolizes political power in a tiny, hated Catholic elite.

Then when the French leave, the majority religion of the country takes over and literally all of the educational and political infrastructure of the country is useless to them.

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>>3102018
>When people wake up to the threat Islam poses to our civilization, you won't be crying about your rights being violated or your feelings getting hurt from army checkpoints in your town.

I think America could greatly reduce the threat posed by Islam if America could get America to stop giving Islam money, guns and lists of people to kill.

>>3103405
I'm concerned about your health. Liberalism is a mental disorder and I am just pissed that you are bending over for Islam and allowing our homeland to be infested with communism as well.

>>3103289
Oh another "muh constitution" muh freedoms libtard. Listen, no one cares about your stupid (((rights))). We are at war and the sooner you realize how much trouble our civilization is in, the sooner you'll stop crying about losing "muh rights" Its' the me, me,me,me generation.

>>3103750
4/10 rev up the gas more slowly next time

>>3103634
>I think America could greatly reduce the threat posed by Islam if America could get America to stop giving Islam money, guns and lists of people to kill.
It has almost nothing to do with America. Stop blaming civilised people for the actions of barbarians.

Islam has doubled it's share of the world's population since 1910. Islam is currently the fastest growing major religion, and muslims will outnumber Christians globally within a few decades.

Meanwhile, the most persecuted religious group globally are Christians (that's not hyperbole), the greatest perpetrators are muslims, and the rhetoric in the Western world is THE EXACT OPPOSITE. 1000 Christians could be beheaded in Syria tomorrow, but so long as someone in London throws bacon at a mosque, the narrative will be "balanced".

The only way to reduce the threat Islam poses, is to limit the spread of Islam. Don't import muslims, don't build mosques, don't give them citizenship.

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the Americans should've just accepted Ho Chi Minh declaration for Vietnamese to self rule and avoid the retarded quagmire
also what do they mean by this?

>>3103758
i live in a majority muslim country and i see that muslim influence dwindling rapidly mostly due to import of western culture
the west problem is those cultural whateveritism enabling radicalism
even here we have checks and balances for that stupid ideology

>>3103782
Make no mistake, I'm all in favour of cucking Islam where it's based. I'm aware that here in the UK, our muslims are motivated by a sort of vanguard-ism, believing themselves to be conquerors.

One great example of that was the first gay muslim wedding over here. We can use that wedding to drive a wedge between their "moderate Islam" and liberalism, it's a godsend.

But as to the matter of muslims being "radicalised" because we won't let them mass-migrate illegally into Europe, fuck that noise. If they're the sort of people to hate the West because it didn't bow to them, then they can fucking blow themselves up in an embassy for all I care. I'd actually prefer that, than have them drive a taxi in the UK.

>>3103806
Tee bee aytch, most of the ones that work hard enough to earn a visa are based.

Now that I'm thinking about this, terrorists are almost exclusively lazy bastards who can't be bothered to contribute to society. You don't see a whole lot of ER docs driving trucks into people.

>>3103806
import all the smart moslems
their childrens will eventually grow out of that shitty religion and be a net contributor most likely
the shithole moslem cuntry will fall into disrepair due to severe brain drain,then if possible send out those non-indoctrinated descendant of smart ex moslem to their ravaged cuntry and help them rebuild it

>>3103817
>most of the ones that work hard enough to earn a visa are based.
No, most of them (Pakis) are committing marriage fraud to get a spousal visa. Marrying teenage girls (either Brit-muslim or Slav) to get in.

That's why a few years ago, the government introduced a law basically saying that to invite a non-EU spouse to reside in the UK, you need to be earning a certain amount.

And, would you guess it, an industry of muslim lawyers sprang up who specialise in producing fraudulent pay slips.

>You don't see a whole lot of ER docs driving trucks into people.
Literally the only terrorist attack in my home city was by muslim doctors driving a land rover into an airport.

I didn't lose shit.

>>3103840
As an American, I don't know these feels.

Feels good man.

>>3103826
>import all the smart moslems
I'd rather have Chinese, or Sikhs, or Hindus.

And it's easier to find intelligent non-muslims, because muslims inbreed.

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>>3100766
>American power hour
Fuck off with your fake news CNN bullshit already

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>>3105094

>>3100776
>No you just failed to achieve all your strategic and political goals.

Thats the definition of losing.
If you achieve your goals, you won. If you didn't, you lost.

>>3102543
Yeah, they took over Orange County (California), it's a bit of ironic because you know what California is famous for.

>>3101284
>withdrawing the entirety of US troops from Vietnam
>a tactic
Great tactic.

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We won the tactical victory. The North won the strategic/political victory.

The U.S. lost because it failed to recognize the character of the war (amongst other reasons). It should not have been waged in a conventional manner, but rather as a counter-insurgency operation. The U.S. failed to make a convincing argument for themselves to the Vietnamese populace, whereas the VC, although committing atrocities just like the Americans, were able to, even to the point of compulsion. The VC were prepared to make any sacrifice in order to vouchsafe their sovereignty. It didn't matter how many Vietnamese the U.S. killed, because that never should've been the object in the first place; from the very beginning, the VC was prepared to wager all. It was a life or death proposition for the North, who were able (successfully) to cast themselves as the liberators of Vietnam from foreign oppression after hundreds and hundreds of years of occupation by a number of powers.

Basically, the U.S. lost the strategic, political, and moral victory. They succeeded in killing thousands of VC, but were unable to spin their narrative to the people of Vietnam. You could say it's the classic "hearts and minds" situation, though it isn't quite that simple.

The people in the U.S. military who realized this and even wrote the manual on counter-insurgency post-Vietnam made the same mistakes in Iraq and Afghanistan.

>>3103750
>throws around buzzwords and tries to insult anyone who disagrees with him and warns of the impeding end of civilization on an academic forum
>apparently we're the ones trying to get attention?

>>3103758
>islam remains mostly stagnant for centuries when cut off from the west
>western powers roll in and start messing with everything and handing out modern weapons
>us trained muslims start blowing things up
>total coincedence

>>3101510
Are you, really, really, really, really, reaaaaaaaalllly.......... this stupid and paranoid?

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>>3105107

>>3103774
Obviously we can't know how it would have gone but Uncle Ho respected America and would probably have struck a good bargain with us if we agreed to leave the North alone.

>>3101711
>>3101718
>>3101833
>>3103289
holy fuck redditards TRIGGERED

>>3106295
That's because your a limp wristed liberal faggot pussy that is in denial of how much in trouble our civilization is and how disrespectful people are towards our military and towards the police fighting terrorism. You libcucks make me laugh because you are going to be in for a treat when people wise up around the world and they start putting the filth into camps and make them work for a change. And I'm not trying to get attention, if you want your faggot attention go on to reddit you "academic" liberal faggot. I'm back to BTFO you again. And based user that that just responded.

>>3106333
Wow you taking the side of the extremist? Wow its not being triggered its bewilderment at how stupid some people are. I didn't realize supporting the Constitution and supporting basic human rights (a term that gets tossed around too easily these days but still matters nonetheless) made us "triggered redditards" you and that OP that keeps trying to get our attention go back to pol. Better yet go live in North Korea.

>>3102540
And I can't wait until libtards get put into camps for their treason and appeasement of the enemy.

>>3106350
HahahahahahahahahahhHHHaaaaaaaaaaaa

Even if you were right about any of your alarmist bullshit literally no one would ever support it and "limb wristed libcucks" like me will stay out of camps until we all get blown up (i actually supported trump but who cares)

>>3106376
Its funny because native poltards were outbred by reddit immigrants and pol is way more connected to reddit than we are

>>3106350
I think you're trying way too hard with this.

>>3107024
There are places on the internet where you can hook retards onto your ideology with shit like that but this is simply not one of them.

>>3100766
No. We lost at home.

>>3107024
HAHAHA I'm back faggots! I can't get BTFO'd because you are scared of the truth!

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Well it depends in what sense you're asking, big picture and strategically speaking (which is all that really matters at the end)? We lost, we failed to stop the spread of communism to South Vietnam as well as the region. Militarily (and I think this is what most trolls are alluding to)? The US stomped the NVA and VC whenever they fought save for a few instances like July 2 (Marine Corps got BTFO in a surprisingly well-coordinated ambush), Junction City (a whole lot of killing with nothing to show for it strategically), Ia Drang (this is really disputed), Kham Duc (VC and NVA overran the outpost, US Army undeniably BTFO) and technically Khe Sanh (Marine Corps killed a fuck load of gooks, broke the siege, destroyed the base and left..)

Thats off the top of my head but most of the other battles and Search and Destroy missions were won by the US, most of the time the VC/NVA just couldn't stand up against the might of the US military.

>>3101297
>and the NVA were put on their side of the DMZ
This is false. The NVA moved south and began larping as Viet Cong. When the Paris Peace Accords were signed, the ones that named us the victors, the NVA controlled a large chunk of the South and Southern forces were continuing to suffer heavy losses in combat against them.

Overlapping with the Tet Offensive was the Battle of Khe Sahn. This is usually considered as a big victory for the US, but as soon as the base was relieved it was abandoned. The NVA moved in and occupied it. The US failed to realize the strategic significance of Khe Sahn and its abandonment led to the collapse of the McNamara line of bases, allowing the NVA to penetrate deep into the South.

This was the situation leading up to the Peace Accords. They were just an attempt by the US to save face.

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>>3109842
>The US failed to realize the strategic significance

This could pretty much sum up the entire Vietnam War, the whole war was a hilariously bad case of "Winning the Battles, Losing the War"

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>>3100766
Yes, we failed our political objectives. But now that they are our trading ally, it really makes it kind of moot.

Yes, all of those deaths officially were for nothing.

>>3101510
>You ain't going to have any rights under communism and you sure as hell won't have any rights under Islam either.

Or if you were in charge, apparently. So you admit you're, at best, as bad as Communist dictators or ISIS?

>>3100766
You just left, so yes

>>3103332
Ask me how do I know you are an insufferable cunt.

>>3110079
he's not wrong though

>>3100788
>muh kda

you're losing at monopoly

you get frustrated and throw the board and pieces

did you lose?

>>3101903
It's kinda like people in the South call the Civil War "The War of Northern Aggression" when really it was Southern aggression that sparked the war. The people who lost are butthurt about it and want to use semantics to spin it in their favor.

>>3110250
It was a humiliating strategic and political failure on our part but what I think gets most Americans pissed off is that they think that the dude posting the bait is conflating the defeat with out soldiers losing militarily, which seems to bother them more than the fact that said soldiers were fucked over by their government.