Are modern day Italians descendants of the Roman's?

>>3089204
No, the Roman genepool got diluted during the times of the Empire, and then following the collapse of the Empire there was a massive population reduction and a massive cucking by germanic tribes.

>>3089204
Yes they are for the most part though some mixture has occurred.

>>3089204
>Are modern day Italians descendants of the Roman's?
maybe one in 10,000
>which country's people are the most similiar genetically to the Romans
Romania LMAO

>>3089204
Japan.
The japanese are all Nordic/Germanic.
That is why hitler loved them so much.

>Are modern day Italians descendants of the Roman's?
Yes. Settled, urban populations generally do not get displaced unless some other factor like disease or an intentional program of genocide is factored in.

Consider that ancient Italy had 5-10 million people living there and that any migration there would be a few thousand at the most. .

This
>>3089211
anon is being massively fucking stupid

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She is pure Italian and looks Roman.

>>3089204

"When the last of the Romans died, the Italians climbed down from the trees."

>>3089225
>Yes. Settled, urban populations generally do not get displaced unless some other factor like disease or an intentional program of genocide is factored in.
Ever heard of the Justinian plague? Ever heard of the Germanic invasions.

Christ you're a moron.

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>>3089235
The woman in the picture has germanic admixutre.
The real romans looked like the woman in the picture in my post.

>>3089240
Comeon guys, no fighting.
We all know the japanese are the real romans.

>>3089240
Yes anon the plague of Justinian and the Germanic invasions wiped out 10 million people and replaced all of them, you're a goddamned genius

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>>3089240
I'm sure you've heard of them but I suspect you don't know very much about them, if you think they entirely depopulated Italy.

>>3089250
Why are leftycucks always so adamant on insisting that there have been no population shifts, ever? Is it because the concept of race struggle doesn't fit their marxist worldview?

For the sake of comparison

In the 17th century, in the Irish province of Ulster, 1/3rd of the population were British colonists. And yet, in the 21st century, 88% of people in Ulster have no or only a negligible amount of British admixture.

The Italian peninsula was very densely populated by a minimum of 4 million people and a maximum of 10 million, and Germanic invasions were never more than a few thousand.

Of course modern Italians are descendants of the Romans. People who don't think so are just as bad as WE WUZ KANGZ types.

>>3089259
I'm saying there was no massive population shift in Italy because there is no literary, archaeological or genetic evidence to suggest one.

>leftycuck
What did you mean by this?

>>3089204
For the most part, yes. Not sure what cuck agenda people who say otherwise are trying to push.

>>3089254
Where did I claim that they DEPOPULATED the empire, of course they were remnants, but the modern italian shares as much roman heritage as does the average mexican share aztec heritage

>>3089279
>but the modern italian shares as much roman heritage as does the average mexican share aztec heritage
what is your evidence for this claim my dude

No, the Germans are. All great Romans had blonde hair and/or blue eyes

>>3089267
>
In the 17th century, in the Irish province of Ulster, 1/3rd of the population were British colonists. And yet, in the 21st century, 88% of people in Ulster have no or only a negligible amount of British admixture.
So you're saying that it's possible for there to be very rapid demographics shifts? Really makes you think.

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>>3089279
>he modern italian shares as much roman heritage as does the average mexican share aztec heritage
Where are the proofs?

>>3089287
Nice meme you have there Hans Muller.
Your ancestors lived in cabins made from cow's dung and never showered and had NO \WRITTEN LANGUAGE while the Romans lived in organized cities of marble with bath houses.
Muh ancestors...

>>3089279
Are you retarded? Nobody exterminated the romans. Barbarians just became new rulers.

>>3089283
>>3089298
I'll post mine if your post yours first ;^)

>>3089301
I know right? And George Washington was a native american.

>>3089302
Kys first tho

>>3089305
Again, you keep comparing cases where the invaders exterminated the native population with a situation where this just didn't happen.

Go watch the new blacked episodes instead of pushing your race-mixing narrative here.

>>3089305
America is a different case entirely because of disease wiping out basically the entire continent on top of having a low population density to begin with.

Modern Britons and Egyptians are still genetically the same as their ancient forebears despite having shifted culturally, why wouldn't the same be true of Italy?

>>3089242
That is an old hag

>>3089300
>Alexander was blind with a blue eye
>Caesar was blond
>Augustus was blond
>Trajan was blond
Stay mad Luigi

Yes, 2000 years is next to nothing in terms of population genetics

>>3089325
It's well documented that the Romans dyed their hair blonde all the time.

>>3089330
>no source

Not at all, it would be more prudent to say that the legacy of rome fell to the greek people as they were carrying eastern roman tradition up until the 19th century while the italian peninsula were repeatedly invaded and assimilated by germanics

>>3089242

>Chiara Ferragni was born on 7 May 1987 in Cremona to Marco Ferragni, a Lombard dentist,[49] and Marina Di Guardo, a writer born in North Italy of Sicilian origin;

She is Mediterranean.

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>Board is made for the discussion of humanities
>A bunch of fucking retards take this as an opportunity to discuss unimportant, boring conjecture about what skin tone people in X looked like in the Y'th century.

Just look at their art and make that judgement yourself, you boring cunts. This isn't even history, it's fucking science.


>>>/sci/

>>3089242

I am terrone- American, there are plenty of women who look like that from Italy

>>3089223
>>3089211
Prove it.

>>3089204
Nah, The original Romans were replaced by The Germanic tribes Who invaded Italy en mass, The only Romans alive today are Sardinians

North Italy is Ostrogoths and sheeeit
South Italy is moor shitbloods

>>3089523
>The only Romans alive today are Sardinians
fucking boat-proof island saved them

1 million lombards and 400,000 goths absolutely changed The genetics of mainland Italians (They were only 8 millions)

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>>3089523
You can definitely see the big nose of the Romans in them.

>>3089570
Indeed, Sardinians still speak a language close to Latin and were known as Rum (Romans) by The saracens

>>3089570
They look Greek.

>>3089584

They have nothing to do with Indo-European people though. They just speak the language but don't have admixture from the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

>>3089591
So like Romans?

>>3089595

Not sure where you're getting that idea from. Mainland Italy has old enough R1b-M269 subclades that they can't be linked with Celtic or Germanic invaders.
Meanwhile, Sardinian I2 is completely absent.

>>3089602
I2 is from hunter gatherers so I don't know how' that relevant, central Italians have a lot of g2a in them like Sards

>>3089610

G is not nearly as common as R1b there.

Since we be certain that ancient Italian mainlanders had high rates of R1b we can be certain they had admixture from the Pontic-Caspian steppe.
Before you say Basques, they also have admixture from Pontic-Caspian steppe just a more dilluted with local women that they got their meme language from.

>>3089618
Sardinians have admixture too from The steppe

>>3089637

Yeah sure some do but the purest Sardinians from the highland towns have none.

>haplogroup faggotry now

>>3089710

Well this thread is about genetics isn't it?

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>>3089204
>Its this fucking thread again

>>3089721
Haplogroup faggotry doesn't prove anything except where the oldest paternal lineage of someone originated on one side of their family. Its a fucking meme.

>>3089745

Haplogroups are indeed not ideal but there are no autosomal genetic studies on Italians between Remedello culture and present day so there's nothing else to work with except haplos.

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>>3089728
It's the same people each time. Imagine being so boring that you obsess over what race inhabited an ancient civilisation - as if it matters. Instead of learning about the interesting aspects of a civilisation, such as its religion, literature, culture, politics, etc they sperg over haplogroups without a proper understanding of genealogy.

>>3089766
Its still a meme and one that is abused. Just like how most bullshitters on this board claim northern Italians are genetically more "germanic" then their southern kin even though direct lineage and autosomal DNA show germanic influence in both areas of Italy are less than 10%.

North African populations are the closest living relatives to ancient Romans.

>>3089781

The origins of cultures are interesting on their own.

Haplogroups are just a tool to help figure out migrations.

I think it's very interesting that Ancient Romans and Greeks inherited their Indo-European cultures from their direct ancestors in the steppe, although having also Pelasgian and Etruscan influence from their other, non-Indo-European ancestors who were subdued.

>>3089204
Yes.
This seems like one of those threads we wuzErs try to post to try and normalize their flawed belief that the tan skinned people living in Egypt today aren't the real Egyptians because of "invasions".

>>3089523
>>Actually believing this lie.

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>>3089842
This

>>3089842
>Revisionism.

>>3089857
The Egyptian we wuz zen just seek to correct the implication that upper Egyptians are not real Egyptians or are not representative of ancient Egyptian continuity, when in fact they are easily the closest living relatives to and most representative of the vast majority of the ancient population.

>>3089781
I still think it's nogs trying to in their minds wittingly try and push the we wuz meme for Egyptians by creating this myth that entire empires had their entire populations removed.

>>3089892
>Upper Egypt

You mean the Nubians aka Sudanese.

>>3089887
Nah i think this anon took this idea from the fact both roman and berbers were seen as descendantsnof trojans during antiquity.

>>3089903

Let's keep in mind though that Berbers before the slave trade were considerably more like Neolithic Europeans, at least near the coast.

>>3089900
No, I mean the real Egyptians. The ones who are the most ancient and indigenous to the land aka upper Egyptians. Nubian is a modern concept designed to artificially divide and seperate Egyptians from their heritage because they are not white enough for white academia's sensibilities.

>>3089913

So if you had a time machine and went back to Giza when they were hard at working building the pyramids, would you tell the Mediterranean locals that they are phony and not real Egyptians?

>>3089909
No

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>>3089909
It is entirely possible that they were less white, and subsequently were whitened by the white slave trade.

>>3089925
The opposite, middle easterners got BLACKED because of the slave trade.

>>3089917
They would agree they were Greek or Levantine. Now the ones actually doing the labor would definitely say they were Egyptian, some may even say they were aetheopian, that being their ancestral home and all.

>>3089842
The populations living in former Roman territories (Britain, France, Spain, Italy, Greece, Egypt) are the living descendants of ancient Romans, because Roman wasn't an ethnic group you dense fucking retard.

>>3089932
You don't know that for sure. The moors enslaved countless white women post Rome.

>>3089940

>They would agree they were Greek or Levantine.

?

>Now the ones actually doing the labor would definitely say they were Egyptian

They were all Egyptian

>some may even say they were aetheopian, that being their ancestral home and all.

????

>>3089945
>You don't know that for sure.
Yes we do.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4555292/Study-mummies-reveals-Turkish-European.html

BLOWN THE FUCK OUT

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>>3089944
WE

>>3089204
That shield is so tiny

>>3089953
That study is not of native Egyptians, and it is all from one site. Not at all scientific.

>>3089968
>That study is not of native Egyptians,
Wut, yes it is.

>and it is all from one site. Not at all scientific.
I eagerly await the mountains of scientific evidence you surely possess which proves the contrary.

>>3089897
Not on /his/ or 4chan for that matter. The only people who WE WUZ on this board are /poll/acks claiming that the ancient Mesopotamians, Egyptians, etc were white.

It's the same claim as you mentioned though, in that they say the original population of Egypt and other countries was supposedly removed by Arab conquest.

>>3089968

One site but over a span of 1300 years.
What exactly are the odds that not a single actual Black King was buried there if such existed?

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>>3089990

Arab conquest led to an increase in SSA admixture as Arab slave traders brought new genetics to Egypt from faraway lands.
Copt people can still be proud of being descended from Pharaohs and shit.

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>>3089204

Yes. There was no appreciable admixture introduced at any time.

desu anywhere you can find the remains of ancient roman city walls, you can expect that veterans settled down and took local women, so effectively most populations within the borders of the ancient roman empire at the height of its expansion have a little roman in them genetically

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>>3089970
It's simple. That study is not science. It is confirmation bias masquerading as science. It would be like future Chinese researchers digging up a gravesite of a former American Chinatown, and then using their findings as the genetic basis for Americans claiming they were chinese.

Anyway if Egyptians were Turkish why wouldn't they portray themselves as such? See.>>3083116

Pic related is a native Egyptian mummie. Taking cultural continuity concerning mummification and practices like circumcision into consideration, ancient Egyptians clearly have their roots in East African Nile cultures. That's not to say there was a prevalent northern influence from a very early stage, but a mountain of archeological evidence points to upper Egypt and upper Egyptians being the point of origin for the majority of the ancient Egyptian populace.

>>3090018
There is no proof that the Arab slave trade was responsible for the increase in southern DNA, considering slavery stemming from deeper in Africa had always been a thing.

Keeping with how unscientific this study is, they jumped to this conclusion rather than even considering the more likely reason for the discrepancy. The sample base for the ancient population they used was not representative of the population at large becaus it only came from one site.

>>3090038
>there are actual wewuzzers browsing /his/ right now
kys nigger.

>>3089994
Would you find Obama buried in a Jewish graveyard?

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>>3090038

Ancient Egyptians were not "Turkish". They were a mixture of Neolithic farmers from the Levant and indigenous Natufian related people.
If you were smarter maybe you would be able to understand that Afrocentism is dead now.

>>3090075
It's not Afrocentrism, it is anthropologic objectivity. Trying to seperate and African derived culture from Africa is white we wuzzing. Ancient Egypt was settled from souh to north, that is a fact.

>>3090096
>that is a fact.
It's not a fact, it's afrocentrist delusions. Egypt was settled by middle eastern farmers.

>>3089957
>Armies of thousands are able to obliterate millions of ethnic populace and breed with the remainder to almost completely replace the original inhabitants in the time of late antiquity.

Ok.

>>3090066

Jews have never succeeded at staying unmixed anywhere.
In this hypothetical scenario where the el-Fayum people are alien invaders with fully local culture, among a black people they pretty much have to kill all blacks they see KKK style to stay pure for 1300 years.
Very nonsensical hypothesis.

>>3090104
The fact that it is closer to the point of human origin alone(the timescales I know) makes that impossible.

The ancient Greeks said that Egyptians were Ethiopian colonists, and the ancient Egyptians themselves say they came from the south.

>>3090128

Doesn't make ancient Egyptians black.

>>3090125
I was just making a point, that ethnically exclusive cemeteries have never been uncommon. They would be considered "black" anyway via the one drop rule. The US sets the race rules that the rest of the world follows.

>>3090134
I never said they were, what do you have against black people.

>>3090142

Nothing until they try to revise history.

>>3090148
Nobody's revising history, except for maybe some insecure white people.

>>3090154

Saying the Egyptians were not subsaharan blacks is just fact, it has nothing to do with insecurity.

Maybe you should look at what you're saying if you're getting such a reaction, it may be that you're unintentionally insinuating that they were.

>>3090018
What the fuck am I actually looking at there?

>>3090171

Mitochondrial DNA haplogroups.
Ancient Egyptians had 99% of the same ones that Near Eastern and European people have(non-red/orange).

>>3090170
Nobody said they were Subsaharan. There are black people that are not Subsaharan. Subsaharan is a new, flawed, and racialized concept anyway considering how young the Sahara is.

Despite your best wishes there is no natural barrier blocking the Nile passage south to north.

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>>3090062
How is >>3090038
an "actual" we wuzzer? At what point did that anon state that Ancient Egyptians were West African BLM warriors? He said that the original inhabitants of Ancient Egypt were (surprise, surprise), people native to the Nile River Valley.

If you want to dispute something, then dispute him saying that "upper Egypt and upper Egyptians being [were] the point of origin for the majority of the ancient Egyptian populace."

I don't know what archeological evidence he's talking about, and I'd appreciate it if he'd post it. However, judging by the fact that they portrayed themselves as being relatively dark skinned in comparison to, say, a Libyan, I feel inclined to believe him for now.

>>3090191
The sample base for that study was not native Egyptians, for the millionth time.

>>3090205

Ah, so you ARE trying to insinuate they were black and validate they KANGZ theory.

Simply not the case, sorry for your luck.

>>3090205

SSA can be defined as an absence of OoA II heritage.

>>3090209
>He said that the original inhabitants of Ancient Egypt were (surprise, surprise), people native to the Nile River Valley.
Which is both unsupported by the archeological record (which shows the sudden appearance of a people with technology similar to levantines around 4000 B.C.) and the genetic record (which shows egyptians as being related to levantines and anatolians).

Protip: virtually not a single ethnic group alive today descends from the people native to [insert geographical location]

>>3090211

/pol/ says Jews are Khazars.
Their deep hatred of Jews explains their misconception just like your deep hatred of non-SSA explains your misconception. The human mind is a strange thing, hate can convince it to believe almost anything.

>>3090209
>Archeological evidence
Nabta playa

By the 6th millennium BC, evidence of a prehistoric religion or cult appears, with a number of sacrificed cattle buried in stone-roofed chambers lined with clay.[2] It has been suggested that the associated cattle cult indicated in Nabta Playa marks an early evolution of Ancient Egypt's Hathor cult. For example, Hathor was worshipped as a nighttime protector in desert regions (see Serabit el-Khadim). To directly quote professors Wendorf and Schild:[2]

The levant has no comparable historical site related to ancient Egypt, despite some people's claims that that's where indigenous Egyptians originated.

>>3090215
By "black" I don't mean American, but most of them would definitely fall on the spectrum.

>>3090255
Catal huyuk had altars deticated to bull worship

>>3090263
Anatolia is far from Egypt. Nabta playa is in Egypt.

>>3090255

Neolithic people moved to Egypt, North Africa and the Sahara from the Levant around 7000 BC. They were ancestors of the Nabta playa.

>>3090232
If they are defining SSA by absence of a trait, that almost no black Americans are SSA by that definition.

>>3090307

African Americans and Ethiopians have a combination of OoA II and non-OoA II heritage.

>>3090307
The reason that is highly unlikely is because the people immediately south of nabta playa are far more ancient than people from the levant.

Why would they just arbitrarily stop following the Nile northward?

>>3090321
Was meant for>>3090291

>>3090317
Do you see the problem wi the methodology, and what it is trying to be used to claim though?

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>>3089909
Just a bit more, european admixture is still the most prevalant in berbers
>>3089932
Our subsaharan dna comes mostly from women, so the slaves had been B E R B E R E D not the over way around
>>3089945
The berbers who practiced the most slavery are not the one with the more european admixture, so no.

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>>3090018
Your people got slightly mixed during the last 1000 years so you can't be proud of past achievement anymore

>>3090321

NE Africa always had tight connection to Levant.

>>3090333

No there's no problem. OoA II descendants from a tight family. An absence of OoA II heritage is 1:1 correlated with SSA outside Oceania.

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>>3089909
Berbers were nothing like Neolithic Europeans, more like Bronze age Levantines

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>>3090349
Berbers are 40% european, mostly descended from european women, modern consensus is that most of the admixture came during the neolothic.

>>3090349

If you're gonna keep shitposting that at least fix the troll edit for Semites, assuming you didn't do it yourself.

>>3090367
Yeah sure, you were raped by Romans and Vandals so you do have some European blood, but looking at those graph it seems much less than 40%

>>3090383
>what is mitochondrial dna
Not him, but most of the european dna in berbers come from women you fucking brainlet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_North_Africa

>>3090348
A connection yes, but the same thing, no. That assumes that there is zero continuity along the Nile.

>>3090407
Not him, but like I said >>3089925

>>3090348
Under that methodology black Americans wouldn't be considered Subsaharan. It is like a reverse one drop rule.

I support the one drop rule as it has been over the past couple hundred years simply for the sake of consistency.

>>3090407

Berbers are an Afro-Asiatic people from the eastern Mediterranean. That's pretty much where the bulk of their mtDNA is from too.

>>3090440

They should be in their own category as should Ethiopians.

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>>3090420
If that was it as i said the region who had the most european slaves would be largly more european than the others. This is not the case, so most admixture can not be from slavery.
Black admixture on the other side is all from slavery that's why regions which segregated the descendants the black slaves have little to no black admixture.

And frankly just look at the antic representaion of berbers.
Also Guanche who separeted from the rest of the maghreb during antiquity and stayed isolated until their extermination by spaniards were discribed by them as light skined and blond haired.

>>3090455
The problem arises when those kinds of studies are used to imply that Egyptians are in no way nor have ever been categorically "black"(No, not pitch black congoid), it's more than just a little misleading.

Then elephant in the room becomes, WHY?

>>3090465
We don't know what origins guanches had nor what language they spoke

Could very well be ancient Viking/Galician sailors

>>3090465
What? Some parts of North Africa are whiter than others, and those are the regions where white slavery was more prevalent as opposed to black slavery.

>>3090442
>Total West Eurasian lineages (H, HV, R0, J, T, U (without U6), K, N1, N2, X) : 50-80 percent

>>3090468

The real question is why is it so important for you that they were Black when there's no real evidence of that.

>>3090481
It is not the case.

>>3090486
There is a ton of evidence that they fall on the spectrum of black. Historical honesty, objectivity, and consistency is important to me.

>>3090484

They have a combination of Near Eastern and local Paleolithic haplos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberomaurusian

>In 2013, Iberomaurusian skeletons from the prehistoric sites of Taforalt and Afalou were analyzed for ancient DNA. All of the specimens belonged to maternal clades associated with either North Africa or the northern and southern Mediterranean littoral, indicating gene flow between these areas since the Epipaleolithic.[9] The ancient Taforalt individuals carried the mtDNA Haplogroup N subclades like U6, H, JT and V, which points to population continuity in the region dating from the Iberomaurusian period.[10] In 2016 it has been identified mtDNA haplogroups H or U, T2b, JT or H14b1, J, J1c3f, H1, R0a1a, R0a2c, H2a1e1a, H2a2a1, H6a1a8, H14b1, U4a2b, U4c1, U6d3.[11]

>>3090487
Any proof?

>>3090493

Papuans are black

Sri Lankan tribals are black

Andaman islanders are black

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>>3090470
Yes we do, their langage has been studied and it is a berber dialect, the dna of mummies has been tested and they were berbers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanches#Population_genetics

>>3090498
They have those admixture too, and european too, what is your point?

>>3090517

The point is that modern day North Africans don't have much European admixture. Some yes but a marginal amount.

The genetic connection with Europeans dates back to the pre-Neolithic eastern Mediterranean and beyond.

>>3089204
The Romans themselves started out as a mix of tribes from Latium. They didn't emerge as some single ethnic group. Moreover the way how people became "Roman" is equally important because ethnicity had very little to do with it.

>>3090525
What? Northern Libyans and Sicilians are practically indistinguishable.

>>3090549
How does that conflict with what he said

>>3090617
North Africans have a ton of European admixture.

>>3089240
Britain.

invaded and conquered many times.

celts, romans, anglos, jutes, scandinavians, normans

yet the pepople are still the pict, celt, briton

>>3090640

Nah
See >>3090349

>>3090549
Not genetically

>>3089374

>Marco Ferragni, a Lombard dentist

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards

Pretty much everyone in northern Italy has quite a few snowniggers in the wood pile.

Why did the Romans have such shit cavalry and have a navy much weaker than they should have had?

Why was the Roman Navy seen as less prestigious than the Army?
Why was cavalry seen as less prestigious than being a lectionary?

Did they learn nothing from Greek and Carthaginian naval power? Or Macedonian and Eurasian steppe cavalry?

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>>3091084
>Did they learn nothing from Greek and Carthaginian naval power?
You mean after they BTFO them both without even having any navy to speak of before the war?

>>3091099
Yet their navy was still shit compared to what it could and should have been.

>>3089358

Greece was repeatedly invaded and settled by Slavs and Vlachs. There are still people in Greece right fucking now that speak Latin based langauges that arrived with the Vlachs, they're called Aromanians.

>>3091042

Lombardy the region andLombards the tribe aren't the same thing...Lombardy is named after the tribe, but the tribe did not leave any significant genetic footprint. Northern italians probably always looked the way they do today.

No because it doesn't fit the nordcucks supremacist agenda.

File: Plague-of-Justinian-leaving-death-in-its-wake..jpg (193KB, 600x337px) Image search: [Google]

193KB, 600x337px

>>3089204
The Italian Peninsula was depopulated by the Gothic wars of Justinian, and the following plagues.
so very few i would say.