Nazis Were Way Ahead of Us

>>3066545
+1

Reminder that the Horton's stealth capabilities were unintentional and completely accidental. The developers were tasked with creating a light-weight, fast, long-range bomber.

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>>3066545

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>>3066545

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On some levels, yes, but only by a few years at most:
"Assault" rifles (StG-44, 45)
Jets (Me 262, He 162, Ar 234)
Rockets (V2, X-4)
Guided weapons (Fritz X, Hs 293)
Cruise missiles (V1)
Revolutionary Submarines (Type XI, XIII)

most of these weapons were however not fully developed and unreliable.

Americans and the British were superior at very important things, as well:
Nukes
Radar (guided ship artillery, defense of the UK)
Encryption (they cracked Enigma)
Strategic Bombers (B-17, Lancaster, B-29)

It's just what happens in wartime R&D.

The horten Ho, was never a stealth jet though.

Instead of novelty projects like that, the Germans could have built long range bombers in 1935, which would have been war time tide-turners , in 1942 and 1943.

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>>3066618
>Implying America didn't have flying wings in the 1940s
This N-9M was introduced in 1942, it's not like they were cutting edge anyway.

>>3066634
Didn't mean to reply, ignore that

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>>3066633
save nukes there was no weapon that could have prevented German defeat, the reason for the defeat was the overwhelming advantage in economy and manpower of the Allies.

Germans were ahead in some things. Nazis were not ahead in anything except ruining Germany.

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>>3066600
E F F I C I E N C Y
D E A D. P I L O T S

>>3066571
But that's literally what happened. You can read that much on fucking Wikipedia.

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>>3066652
>how do you want your engine fąm?
>Just fuck my shit up
>Say no more
>Also these should be flown by the Hitler youth

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>>3066649
this very much
>>3066652
and this, some developments were just completely retarded
>>3066658
not this though, it was a very good design for Germany's needs at the time, just badly produced (because of material shortages) and as you said flown by inexperienced pilots.

>>3066652
Weren't those extremely effective short-range interceptors though?

>>3066665
In return the monstrocity was incredibly dangerous to pilots as well. The fuel or whatever was extremely volatile. The plane could literally burst into flames if the fuel tank came into contact with something I don't really recall. Basically a pilot had to be super careful with landing, and the engineers had to be pretty much dead precise with actually fixing the thing, unless they wanted to get blown to smithereens. I'll check more on its lethality. Also killed a lot of german pilots who flew it

>>3066643

Probably not, but a long range bomber, managing to hit oil targets in Baku in 1942, and Industrial centers beyond the Urals, would have extended the war by 3 years at the least, and teh Germans would have better chances of how to manage to the failure of Barbarossa.

>>3066665
Those things only shot down 16 aircraft, with 300 produced.

>>3066673
>>3066665
Alright checked it. The rocket fuel was insanely volatile, which made it hard to land. The fuel was very corrosive and explosive when it was mixed together outside of the engine. So before refuelling, the engine and fuel tanks had to be completely rinsed with water. With no chance of each fuel touching each other. 2 separate trucks even had to deliver fuel separately to the plane.

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>>3066675
fair enough, but in August 1945 Berlin and Hamburg would have been bombed with nukes instead of Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

>>3066545

And yet they lost and their cities reduced to rubble.

>>3066545
>B-2: Fast, rugged, dependable; the basis of all stealth bombing missions in the USAF. A triumph of design.
>Horten: Bad.

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>When 59 of dein rockets get shot down by a pilot in a propeller plane and your rockets missed most of die targets anyway

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>>3066705
not a rocket, rather a primitive cruise missile with a jet engine.
Also the fact that they missed their target often was more due to counterspies and good inteliigence on the side of the British.
Compared to the V2 the V1 was actually quite a good and usable weapon, bombing enemy cities without endangering pilots.
Nazis were obviously retarded enough to almost give away this one great advantage.

>>3066718
>due to counterspies and good inteliigence on the side of the British.
Yeah I've heard of that, I recall Brits giving false information to the Jerries? Like if they hit a building they'd say that they missed by a long shot, and vice versa if they hit nothing, correct? Still kinda amusing how so many pilots managed to shoot down countless V-1s.

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>>3066728
yes, because the Allies cracked Enigma they uncovered a lot of German spies and forced them to give out false information and find out about flight paths. Fast British prop planes were fast enough to intercept V-1 bombs.

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>>3066736
>Spit tipping a V1
Oh yeah, I heard tipping V-1s was insanely hard, I have a book on that actually:
>[...] harnessed the airflow over the Tempest's wing to lift one of the doodlebug's stubby fins. To do it meant manoeuvring the Tempest's wing a scant six inches below. Done right this would tip the flying bomb and disrupt its gyro mechanism.

>>3066676
>How ignorant or stupid do you think I am?
This is a trick question right

>>3066618
good post

A lot of people put nazi technology on a pedestal simply because they think it's 'cooler' due to the connotation

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>>3066545

>>3066736

Feeding fake impact location was for tge V-2, the Allies had no need to do so for the V-1 because they were easy to intercept. The first batches of VT fused 90mm rounds were rushed to the UK, and combined with x-band fire control radar, allowed interceptors+flak to intercept 90% of V-1's fired against the London metropolitan area.

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>>3067122
German Wikipedia:
V1 missiles were used to the following extent:

Started from the ground: 8892
Of which successful: 7488
3957 of which were shot down by the British (52.8 percent):
By interceptors 1847
By Flak 1878
Through the ropes of balloons 232
Started from the air: 1600
Destination London: 2419 hit and detonated
Destination Antwerp / Brussels: 2488 hit and detonated

I think if it was produced in larger numbers it might have been a good alternative to strategic bombers (though it had a much shorter range) and it was definitely better and far more economic than the V-2.

>>3066658
This was praised by Allied test pilots after the war. And that's with 1945 German production standards and material quality. It was a really good design, exactly what Germany needed and could afford.

>>3066618
>only by a few years at most
With jets they were less than a year ahead and rockets, where they were years ahead cost about the same as the Manhattan program. I think it's obvious which was the better investment.

Assault rifles was more a conceptual than a technological advantage. Anyone could have built the StG-44. If there was one thing the Germans consistently excelled at, it was tactical leadership and infantry doctrines.

>>3066545
Meh, flying wings were nothing new and were experimented with since the 20s.

The most admirable Nazi deisgn IMO is the Silbervogel project.

>>3066618
Brits had jets same time ad the Germans with the Gloster Meteor.

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>>3067269
The Germans had them a little earlier, had the first flying jet plane and used them more widely and in more variations, though the Allies were admittedly very close in terms of development.

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>>3066545
Probably bait but I'm going to use the opportunity to shill Northrop anyways.

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>>3067395
Vought pride worldwide

>>3066643

Not even nukes would've saved Germany.

Presuming they somehow built one working bomb, the moment they used it, the Allies would've hit them with all the shit previously deemed too inhumane. Nerve gas, Operation Vegetarian, accelerating the Manhattan Project dropping Trinity, Fat Man, and Little Boy on German cities instead.

TL;DR Germany uses one atom bomb and they pretty much get exterminated

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>>3067426
This is a good explanation. Germany dares to use the nuke and all humane shit is thrown out of the window. Fairly certain Germany would just look like Fallout.

>>3066545
How did they keep it stable?

>>3066545
Is this real?

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>>3067426
>>3067454
Of course the Allies still would have an advantage with the US being practically unreachable but I wouldn't say it's that simple:

In WW2, nerve agents weren't used on a large scale at all because of fear of retaliation (save for some incidents in Ukraine and the Japanese, in both cases the opponents couldn't retaliate).

I think had the Germans nuked London or Moscow (or made a credible threat), both in range of their bombers, the respectable opponent might have very well surrendered or agreed to a peace treaty. See Japan: they were determined to fight until the end but this kind of instant destruction was simply unbearable.

The US would of course still be a problem (theoretically NYC could be hit by a suicide U-boat, but that's almost science fiction), but I think the credible threat of nuclear attacks could have lead to an early Cold War with Germany.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dm2m8y3hQ8

>>3067610
Yes, but it is misleading

>>3067610
yes, they designed a flying wing, though only a glider variant actually flew, I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229

>>3067613

> Germany getting a heavy bomber through the roughly 15,000 fighters guarding Britain.

>>3067613
If their V-1 rockets were being intercepted by propeller planes such as the Hawker Tempest and North American P-51, what makes you think that a bomber, that is significantly slower than the doodlebug, be able to nuke London before getting intercepted?

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>>3067690
definitely not impossible

something a little bigger than pic related could have carried Little Boy and the He-177 (as shitty as it was) was far faster than Allied bombers and could have made its way through anyway.

The last sortie of pic related was a reconnaisance mission over England on 10th april 1945.

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>>3067690
>>3067722
>>3067724
also obviously there were a lot of casualties and the Allies definitely had the advantage but it was possible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Steinbock

>>3067613
>Britain or USSR
>Surrendering in 1944 or 1945 for any reason
As other anons have said Germany using nukes just means the allies consider themselves justified in glassing Germans and using chemical and biological weapons against Germans.

>>3066657

>expecting stormfags to have read anything at all

they get their memes from jpegs and neonazi youtube videos

>>3067740
Well for one you have to take into consideration what year is it. Germany getting a nuke in 1944 is literally impossible. A nuke in 1945 very impropable, but let's assume so. How would the Arado or any other Jet bomber be able to fly from mainland Germany all the way to London without getting intercepted? How would they be able to do this secretly? What makes you think Britain would surrender? The USA will just nuke Germany back because Germany wouldn't be able to do jack shit to B-29s

>>3067613
>Bongs get nuked
>Commence mass chemical bombing & Operation Vegetarian

>>3067758
>>3067740
Also how will Germany deal with the Soviets in the east pummeling them to death? Why would the allies stop their advance when they're basically at the border of Germany? Also this >>3067763

>>3067742
again, of course the Allies would still have the advantage and the USSR wouldn't have stopped probably (considering the giant death toll they had anyway), but a successful nuclear attack on London would mean the British would lose as many or more civilians in one moment as they did during the entire war in OTL. Also limited retaliation with biological or chemical weapons was possible to be conducted by Germany with fast bombers or modified V1 & V2 until the very end of the war.

>>3067763
a credible threat could be enough for a peace treaty, I think.

>>3067758
they did in fact fly Arados over the UK as late as April 1945.

>>3067777
>they did in fact fly Arados over the UK as late as April 1945.
Yes, now how will they get a nuke in 1944 or 1945? You realise they'd have to somehow just pull Uranium and Heavy water out of their asses, right? Again, if Germany nukes, America and Britain will retaliate. They won't just say "well fuck lads, they bombed us once, guess we shouldn't fight back anymore". The only thing that would happen is Germany would get even harsher treatment, perhaps literally turned into an agrarian state or its population annihilated entirely.

>>3067758
>>3067793

obviously it was impossible for them to obtain nukes that late, it's a what-if-scenario, and I seriously doubt the Allies (especially the UK) would be willing to endure that kind of instant destruction.

If the Germans would in this timeline use nukes and the Allies have them too, obviously it would be an even more brutal end of the war with Germany being bombed out completely.

>>3067797
I'd argue "what-if" scenarios should have to be in the borders of reality. Otherwise these what-ifs will deteriorate to countless arguments. It's also why I think they shouldn't be on /his/

>>3067810
well look at the thread, the OP is obviously bait, so it doesn't matter anyway.

Also given they'd started development simultaneously with the US Germany obtaining nukes isn't too far off imo.

>>3067690
Do you even understand what the V2 was meant for? It was the first real ballistic missile. Attach a nuclear payload to it.

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>>3067838
see your point but the V2's payload wasn't enough to carry a primitive nuke.

>>3067841
yeah but what if you like strap three of them together?

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>>3067822
Scheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiiißeeeeeeeeeeeee

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>>3067850
If the Germans had 1.000.000.000 of these, would they have won?

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>>3067613
>London or Moscow (or made a credible threat), both in range of their bombers, the respectable opponent might have very well surrendered or agreed to a peace treaty

Britain before America joins the war in 1941, maybe, the USSR not so much. Aside from decapitating the leadership of the Soviet Union and making an organized surrender impossible (we avoided using the bomb on Tokyo for this very reason), the destruction of Moscow would've only enraged ordinary Russians into fighting the Germans even harder. The government might collapse but it will only embolden the partisans to fight even more savagely.

>NYC could be hit by a suicide U-boat

Germany does that and America would literally go even more berserk than the Soviets. We went apeshit over Pearl Harbor to the point where the Pacific degenerated into a mini-Eastern Front with the genocidal racism minus the slaughter of civilians (and mostly because there weren't any major civilian populations outside of the Philippines and Okinawa). How do you think we'd respond to Germany demolishing a center of American economic, cultural, and political power and killing millions (including members of FDR's family)? We'd probably go full Indian Wars, scalping Wehrmacht dead, angry mobs breaking into POW camps and lynching every prisoner they can get their hands on, shooting down whole towns of German civilians in blind rage. Germany's military age male population would probably be virtually non-existent by the time everything was said and done.

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>>3067861
Nah, senpai. What they needed was THIS

>>3067863
>the destruction of Moscow would've only enraged ordinary Russians into fighting the Germans even harder
lel
>embolden the partisans

oh no I'm so scared I pooped myself a little, just like Hitler!!!!!!!!

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>>3067863
>>3067867
Yeah, but what if the Germans had a trillion of these?

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>>3067867
>>3067861
And THIS!

>>3067777
>a credible threat could be enough for a peace treaty, I think.
I don't think anyone could at that point trust Germany to keep to the terms of whatever treaty would be signed. You've also now escalated the conflict to an existential struggle for the UK. I guess you have to assume the government goes
>"Well there's nothing we can do against that, and we can't stop them"
instead of
>"And now we make Carthage look like a playground"

Japan surrendered because they literally had no chance of doing anything against the US once the bombs started dropping. The UK still has plenty to swing.

>>3067822
Difference is Germany has a much smaller economy, and has to use heavy water for its plutonium. Like others in the thread said, they were at the USA's 1942 stage by the end of the war

>>3067873
>>3067861
>>3067874
>[German logistic despair intensifies]

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>>3067873
Would've been helpess without this!

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>>3067880
German logistics would've thrived under this

It's almost as if they'd been planning and preparing for war a decade ahead of the United States. Interesting.

>>3066652
>>>3066600
>E F F I C I E N C Y
>D E A D. P I L O T S
More like, pilots melted alive every time the fuel cannisters fractured.

>>3067881
>>3067880
>>3067874
still, had the Russians produced enough of these, it would have been over anyway

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>>3067894
fuck, forgot pic

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>>3067892
The pilots literally had to wear special suits just so they wouldn't burn alive when landing. I laugh everytime when I think about it.

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>>3067897
Helpless against the pinnacle of allied engineering!

>>3067900
And this one time, the test pilot didn't wear it... they couldn't find his body - it completly melted 2ithin minutes.
Terrible way to die, even for a German.

>>3067900
>>3067888
>>3067881
>>3067874

>Strafbattalion soldier
>U-boat sailor
>Experimental Jet pilot

Which would you pick /his/?

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>>3067923
Whatever this is

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>>3067934
>The plane was to be powered by ten jet engines clustered around its nose and was expected to sustain flight for six minutes.

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>>3067913
>even for a German
well fuck you
>>3067923
>Experimental Jet pilot
fly to Allied territory, hopefully don't get shot down and surrender
>>3067907
amateur, see pic

>>3067872

The Russians were literally fighting for their survival as a people. They had a lot more to lose than the French, or the English, or the Americans.

>>3067934
>>3067942
>>3067874
>>3067867
I sometimes think all these completely retarded designs were just desperate attempts of the developers not to get sent to the Eastern Front...

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>>3067944
Oh, we're on.

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>>3067955
well, it's already over for you, can it even get more retarded?

>>3066675
Please don't be retarded. Look at the "long range bombing" done by the Allies on Germany and point to its huge crippling effects that didn't actually take place until there were boots on the ground taking back territory. Oil production was hampered a hell of a lot more by the Soviets taking Ploesti than by all the bombers bombing shit.

Meanwhile, a German long range strat bomber is completely worthless for bombing things like Baku or the Urals, because you don't have any fighters that can cover it anyway. Plus, the most likely thing that gets cut to fund this strat bomber project is your CAS bombing, which was incredibly effective and pretty much made Barbarossa and France possible.

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>>3067959
Yes.

>>3067777
>they did in fact fly Arados over the UK as late as April 1945.
An AR-234 has a max payload of 1,500 kg. That's about a third of the weight of a 1st gen nuclear weapon.

>>>3067913
>>even for a German
>well fuck you
Grandpa was a slave worker.
Grandma saw cher teachers murdered as part of Inteligenzaktion
Half of wifes family was murdered either on the streets of Warsaw in Roundups, or in Concentration Camps.
Don't expect sympathy from me, Hans.

>>3067873
>"der beste Panzer der Welt?"
wewlad

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*notices your bomber formations*

>>3067992
alright, I'm German, two of my family members were gassed during Aktion T-4, my Grandparents never went to the compulsory HJ events, when the Soviets invaded the German homeland my Great Uncle fell defending Silesia (Wehrmacht). None of my relatives were in the SS. 300,000 German Jews were murdered by the Nazis as well, tens of thousands of other Germans too.
30% voted NSDAP in 1933, not knowing entirely how bad they would be, from then there was no hope.
Not all were bad.
I've posted about some good Germans of the era in this thread if you're interested. >>3054680
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germans_who_resisted_Nazism

>>3068043
hahaha didn't notice that

>>3067975
my point was that occasional strikes on the UK were possible until very late, of course I know inflicting any serious damage was off the table in '44-'45.

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>>3067992

Burgeranon here.

Just out of curiosity, is your wife a Jew?

>>3068068
>two of my family members were gassed during Aktion T-4

Tell us more. I rarely hear about people who killed in T-4.

Also, what are the average Kraut's thoughts on Aktion T-4 anyway? I know it's not as heavily memorialized as the Holocaust and all but it had a greater impact on the average Aryan since it was their son or daughter or was disappearing on that bus and never coming back

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>>3068128
>Tell us more. I rarely hear about people who killed in T-4.
The two were my grandma's cousin and uncle, related by marriage, not blood.
My mother works as an archivist and wrote something about it, though it's not entirely clear what happened. The older one was apparently genuinely insane and had mental issues, his son doesn't appear insane, judging by the research my mother did. The Nazis of course claimed both were insane. Both were members of Jugendbund Neudeutschland, a Catholic organization which was forbidden by the Nazis, and both refused to take part in Nazi events. One time they marched along in a demonstration of this Catholic organization, after that the uncle was again sent to a mental hospital (now under Nazi rule) and only briefly returned home, were his mental state deteriorated (he was abused and beaten in the "hospital"). He tried to seek refuge in a Catholic abbey but was denied.
There's less known about the younger one because my grandma and her siblings were far younger and don't remember, also he lived a little further away, but he was also sent into a "hospital" in 1935.
Both were sent to Grafeneck (a reatively small facility with a gas chamber) in 1940 and never returned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafeneck_Euthanasia_Centre

Pic related is Emils (the younger one) little "Stolperstein", these are small memorials put into the sidewalk to "stumble on and remember" the rather unknown victims of the Nazis.

>>3068128
>>3068274
>Also, what are the average Kraut's thoughts on Aktion T-4 anyway? I know it's not as heavily memorialized as the Holocaust and all but it had a greater impact on the average Aryan since it was their son or daughter or was disappearing on that bus and never coming back
Wikipedia says about 70,000 were murdered, I also read 200,000 once. Still, not every family was involved and it was kept relatively secret by the Nazis. My grandma's family only knew for sure about the murders after the war, but of course they suspected it before. Still, there was little they could do about it.

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>>3066658
>how you want ur wood resins senpai
>lets make shit delaminate in flight
>say no more

B-17s fucked shit up

>>3067954

Some of them absolutely were. Manpower shortages plagued aircraft companies design offices, and they had to constantly justify the number of staff they had on hand. At one point it was declared illegal to inflate these numbers under penalty of death, but that was in mid/late 44 and the few cases where someone was accused (usually at messerschmitt lel) didnt go to trial thanks to the deteriorating war situation.

>>3068274
btw, the plate says 1936, but that's another facility, the younger of the two was first taken away by the Nazis in 1935.

>>3067959
>most believing that the 128 mm gun would have been mounted within the primary turret, with some others thinking a smaller secondary turret at the rear of the Ratte would been more logical

LOGIC WAS NOT A CHIEF CONCERN HERE

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>>3068386
What do you mean? We made sure it would be flawless, I tell you. FLAW-LESS. With an 800mm we would've won every single war.

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>>3068386
why was he so autistic?

>>3066545
Operation Paperclip, USA and Russia stole Nazi scientists because non-nazi scientists were too dumb to compete.

Nazis took mankind to space.

>>3068407
I hope you realize that railway guns are a thing, and the landcruiser was meant to be an artillery platform not a tank.

>>3068408
the only significant advantage the Germans had was rocketry (and maybe U-boats) everything else was comparable to Allied technologies, only slightly better or worse.
>>3068418
It would have still been fucking retarded.

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>>3068432
Germans started the war with worse technology than the soviets and allies fur to the treaty of versailles preventing the Weimar republic from conducting certain experiments publicly. The Nazis ended the war with better technology than either side.

Super-heavy vehicles already exist. The thing would be a mobile fire support base.

>>3068432
>the only significant advantage the Germans had was rocketry (and maybe U-boats)

And axial flow turbojet engines, but even then not by much, and really only because the Germans being autistic decided to focus on axial flow from the get go while the eternal anglo realized centrifugal made more sense.

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>>3068476
>The Nazis ended the war with better technology than either side.

Quite watching the history channel

>>3068476
maybe at the end of the war they had nice concepts, but the bulk of these new weapons wasn't ready at all and didn't have as much value as reliable standard ww2 equipment.

also they started with some of the best equipment

best fighter 1939 - bf 109
best bomber 1939 - he 111
best tank 1939 - panzer iii

the thing is that technology alone doesn't win a war unless it's super advanced - you need sufficient numbers and logistics, too.

>The thing would be a mobile fire support base.
and because of the resources needed to build it the german army would be left without tanks.

>>3066570
>Horton's stealth capabilities were unintentional and completely accidental.

LMAO

Yeah, just like how the universe came from nothing for no reason, and life sprung by accident, right?

>>3068476
>The thing would be a mobile fire support base.
And would tie up tens of thousands of logistics workers, couldn't be moved by rail or ship, would get about 0.001 gallons per mile, would break down constantly, probably could only drive on specially reinforced roads, and would be an easy target for an airstrike.

Giant vehicles are fucking dumb militarily. That space shuttle crawler only has to go ~1 mile, and nobody's shooting at it.

>>3068522
>cant make good resin glues cuz lol bombing
>what do we do hans?
>lets add some charcoal to it to shorten the curing time
>40 years later after the public announcement of the B-2 claim the charcoal was there for 'stealth' reasons

It had a fucking steel tube frame under that wooden skin. Any stealthy features of the horten, which was designed by basically amateurs, is purely accidental

>>3068128
No, we are 100% catcholic nationalists. We used to be pro-semitic, though.

>>3068408

Most German scientists weren't nazis, and plenty of scientists were drafted into the Wehrmacht and thus unavailable for science.

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>>3067873

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I agree, they also were cucking themselves to the BBC before it became cool