confederate symbols

>>3064101
Something something 25 year rule.

If you wanted to talk about whether or not the civil war itself was about slavery (Hint: it was) then this would be the appropriate board, but talking about what a specific symbol means in pop culture in the present day is a question better suited for /pol/.

they're like Nazi symbols in Germany

File: Robert_E_Lee.jpg (31KB, 324x479px) Image search: [Google]

31KB, 324x479px

>"Fold it up and put it away"

The civil war itself was about states' rights.
Hence why separatists in different movements around the globe fly it as a symbol of rebellion against their central government.

>>3064101

I think it should be handled delicately because if you like it or not, its a divisive symbol that people can't agree on. Its complicated because a lot of people want it to be about something other than slavery or racism. People like the flag because of General Lee and the confederate soldiers, not the politicians and the slave holders.

Its a pretty flag, you gotta admit. One of the best designed flags Ive ever seen.

>>3064126
The civil war was about taxation. It was turned into a fight against slavery.

>>3064101
It would be a mistake to assume the wide adoption of the confederate battle flag and other confederate symbols had nothing to do with resentment and suppression of former slaves, as well as a reinvention of confederate history as a mythology of liberation.

That said its been around for so long most white southerners do not necessarily associate it with anything but regional pride, culture, history, etc.

>>3064300
>People like the flag because of General Lee and the confederate soldiers,
Then they should do something that uses one of the actual Confederate flags, not a modified version of it specifically created for use by white nationalists.

>>3064307
read the fucking declarations of secession

>>3064170
It was about states' rights to maintain slavery.

>>3064151
Georgian here. This is the only correct answer. My family has lived in Georgia for at least 10 generations. I love it here and would never move out of the South, so bear that in mind while you read this.
Many southerners have a strange set of beliefs that I don't think theyve attempted to reconcile or even formed coherently. Ask any southern man if he loves his country, and the answer will invariably be "yes." American flags are flown everywhere in the South including churches and private residences. Yet, if you ask people if they think the South should have seceded the answer is typically "yes." I've never asked anyone why they think the South should have seceded if they love America, and I might try it with my friends, even though they're probably unionists like me.
My dad probably say "something something niggers," which I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think secession would have gone very well for us. I think my dad really gets at the heart of it. The "rebel flag" seemingly creates a paradox of conflicting allegiances for the white southerner, when in reality the flag symbolizes a sort of racism that the rest of the country looks down on, but they'll never understand. No one has to deal with the black creature on such an intimate basis as the southern man and thus no one understands his plight.
The flag is a symbol of mournful frustration. The southern man is forced to eek out a coexistence with society's greatest leeches, and his only recourse is to move away from his cities and fly an anachronistic flag. The Union has ultimately made the southern man a slave that supports the unwitting population it freed. Actually, maybe secessionists are right. I'm sure there's a better solution, but no solution will be implemented. These are not opinions that are safe to be expressed in daily life.

>>3064354

They are. The 'confederate flag' that is most used is General Lees battle-flag. Not any of the confederate government flags.

>>3064366
>The southern man is forced to eek out a coexistence with society's greatest leeches,


I'd be a lot more sympathetic to that plight if the South didn't spend every waking moment leading up to the war and after it for decades doing there best to create those leeches.

>>3064365
>>3064357
This
>>3064366
guy here and these Anons are correct. It was undeniably about slavery. Did the violation of states' rights have farther reaching implications? Sure. But slavery was unquestionably at the heart of the matter and my own state's declaration of secession confirms this.
I think slavery was wrong, but no effective measures have been taken to turn freed slaves into functioning members of society; or rather, no measure have proved effective. It truly is an exercise in frustration.

>>3064340
>That said its been around for so long most white southerners do not necessarily associate it with anything but regional pride, culture, history, etc.
The culture and history of what, exactly? You can have pride for the better parts of the south without exulting in its worst parts. Maybe some people really do want it to mean something else but in this day and age the confederate flag only has one sole meaning of slavery and racial hatred.
If those white southerners are sincerely prideful about their culture and history and aren't just closeted racists, then they should give up the ghost and fold it up and put it away.

>>3064376
No it isn't. The Army of Northern Virginia's flag under Lee's command was this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Flag_of_the_Army_of_Northern_Virginia.svg

Earlier, they had used a flag that looked like the standard "Conferderate flag," but it was square, not rectangular.

>>3064366
>trying to blame black people for your own peoples failings.

The south can never rise again when they never had the energy to pick their own cotton in the first place.

>>3064390
That's fair, but here we are still dealing with it. I genuinely don't know what to do. Imagine you live somewhere you love. Your ancestors lived there. Generations of labor have gone into the land and all to support a demographic who simply reproduces and commits crimes. I don't want to leave, but I don't know how we pull ourselves out without descending into absolute destitution.

>>3064416
>Generations of labor have gone into the land
Stolen labor done by slaves

>>3064366
>No one has to deal with the black creature on such an intimate basis as the southern man and thus no one understands his plight.
booo hooo owning slaves was soooo hard :(

dumb northerners don't even know the struggle of having to ride through the fields whipping lazy niggers, it's hard work you know! Grr! >:(

>>3064394
Remember when I said "reinventing confederate history as a mythology of liberation?"

Even assuming most white southerners accepted the civil war was about slavery, in there mind the meaning of the flag is totally removed from that moral conflict.

>>3064366
>Piss away billions of dollars from the north

>Continue to shit on blacks long after slavery

>Continue to take in more tax dollars than you pay out


>"It's da norf dats keepin us down"

File: 2740097581_72f1aa0fdf_z.jpg (143KB, 344x500px) Image search: [Google]

143KB, 344x500px

>>3064416

Maybe you can petition the government to give your people some land as reservations?

>>3064401
Failings at what? Breeding like rabbits?
Most people here lead generally fulfilling lives, but our taxes go to keeping black people living scot free in cities that were predominately white until the 90s. Every other place in this country that's overrun with them has also gone to shit. Their destructive behavior is enabled by a government and a people afraid to be called racist. I believe a serious moral inventory is in order. Self reliance has become a bulgur term in this country for the reason that it forces an entire voter base to take a repugnant moral inventory.

>>3064416
>please pity us, we spent centuries breeding a race of chattel people and now we're being overrun by them

>>3064435
>>3064421
>>3064420
Not talking about slavery or the Civil War. The South was fully in the wrong on both counts. Jim Crowe kept the racist social order and did nothing to integrate blacks into society. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about right now. I'm talking about how a population's (justified) demands have been met in full and even exceeded, but we have seen social regression since the 1970s. Whatever we have tried has not worked and it is very frustrating for the modern southern man who provides for not only his family, but someone who plainly refuses to work.

>>3064443
>>3064401

hahahahahahahhahahaha

>>3064455
I didn't do it. No one living did it. In a generation or two there won't be anyone left who even oppressed a black person, but we'll still be the bad guys.

>>3064469
Still when you say generations of labor much of the generations the labor was done by slaves, not surprising that would breed resentment my fellow Americans. Hell even after the war they got fucked over so I don't see why they can't get a break now. Would you be any better if you were in their shoes

>>3064420
How many generations has it been since 1865? Come on now.

>>3064446

Man, now you know a slight bit about being in the Northeast and seeing your federal taxes get poured into the endless sinkhole of money that is the South.

What I see is the less poor begger shitting on the even poorer begger. Complaining that the negro is splitting his pity money instead of finding a decent job.

>>3064486
Less than the amount of generations from 1619 to 1865

>>3064486
1968, since that's when Jim Crow was De Jure ended.

>>3064138
I don't get this retarded shit about confederates being nazis.

Northerners hated and segregated blacks too. Hell, back then everyone was as racist as the confederates.

The confederates also did no genocide and weren't an authoritarian regime.

>>3064481
To be fair, probably not. I don't particularly blame them either. They generally aren't raised with values that promote success. However, acknowledging this does nothing to improve the situation. We've nearly passed the point of being able to vote in favor of programs that promote industriousness, and the federal government enables a great deal of the behavior.
My point isn't that niggers are evil. My point is that the flag represents an underlying frustration of having to support them. It's a mistake I think the South will probably pay for forever.

File: 920x920.jpg (67KB, 693x920px) Image search: [Google]

67KB, 693x920px

You can't consider yourself a patriot if you proudly fly the flag of a faction that lived and died an enemy to the United States of America. And don't give me that "muh heritage" shit. I had family in Nazi Germany. I don't fly a damned swastika.

Also, a bunch of fags marched to "defend" a statue of one of my state's famous generals. They carried confederate flags. The general took an "early retirement" to not be associated with the confederacy. So these chucklefucks don't really give a shit about history or heritage or whatever their buzzword is now. Pic related

>>3064507
>weren't an authoritarian regime
Davis was more of a tyrant than Lincoln

>>3064515
The whole shit about Lincoln being a tyrant was just southern autism.

Hitler was a tyrant, stalin was a tyrant. The confederates were nowhere near as "evil" and freedom hating as these 2.

>>3064506
>>3064495
Fair enough. My original point
>>3064366
had to do with the sentiment this produced, however. Maybe in a sense of historical justice that might seem fair, but for generations too young to have perpetuated any evil, it seems a bit unfair.
Now for boomers it probably represents inherited racism and so forth, but from gen x on, I think that narrative falls apart.

>>3064511
I agree. I'm proud of my heritage as a southerner, but to take pride treasonous and morally bankrupt institutions is disgusting.

>>3064101
Private citizens have every right to fly it for any reason and I think it is a legitimate symbol of heritage for some.
However, it is also fundamentslly a traitor flag and has no place whatsoever being flown by any government institution.

>>3064526
To put this very succinctly, I think the flag does not represent any sort of "heritage" for current southerners. Not really. Most southerners probably agree that slavery was a mistake and if they thought about it disinterestedly, they might admit that secession was a mistake. Instead, the flag represents a sort of frustration fueled racism. A racism that, under better circumstances, might not exist. Current circumstances in the South promote it and the activity of southern blacks lends it credibility to white southerners.

>>3064446
What are you talking about new York is doing great t.new Yorker

>>3064307
Oh right, I forgot. Bleeding Kansas was about taxation. Uncle Tom's Cabin was about taxation. Frederick Douglass wrote all those essays and speeches about... taxation.

>>3064891

New York City has a wonderful public transit system by American standards (not so great by Japanese standards, though), so poor people can get jobs on the other side of the city for the insignificant price of a metro pass. Cities with public transit always have a significantly higher levels of people being able to get out of poverty.

If that Georgia guy wants to see some progress, he should try to get politicians to establish bus lanes and trains and subways that can get people to where the jobs are. City folks can take the sub-way and rural folks can get the bus or trains. That's how you get your state out of poverty.

But no, 'cus dats socialism', or whatever.

File: -egalitarianism--ishygddt-21192247.png (151KB, 500x553px) Image search: [Google]

151KB, 500x553px

>>3064101
>In the year 1765, that portion of the British Empire embracing Great Britain, undertook to make laws for the government of that portion composed of the thirteen American Colonies. A struggle for the right of self-government ensued, which resulted, on the 4th of July, 1776, in a Declaration, by the Colonies, "that they are, and of right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; and that, as free and independent States, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent States may of right do."

-South Carolina's Declaration of Secession

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp

>Hurr Durr the civil war was only over slavery

Eat shit dumbasses, it was more about states rights and sectional tensions than just muh slaves

File: 1494279413406.jpg (102KB, 540x720px) Image search: [Google]

102KB, 540x720px

Alabamaian here, whose forebears fought in the war and owned slaves in Georgia.

It's treasonous and ludicrous. I support keeping up Confederate monuments because I don't condone the removal of historical objects, but the whole flag-waving Southern hillbilly culture is fucking retarded; I should know, I had to grow up around it and fucking hate it.

If anyone is responsible for the South being shit, it's the South. The treasonous "Lost Cause" ideology was nursed in the backwoods by bumfuck hicks and the actual people who fought in the war washed their hands of the whole project.

I wish the South would try and rise again. It'd be funny to see them get their shit pushed in just like the first time, then beg for Northern money. Then get put back another 50 years of cultural and economic development. I would love that. I wish they would secede so they could stop being such a fucking embarrassment.

>>3065000
States rights to own slaves.

Try and backpedal all you want. I'm not trying to argue that the war wasn't spurred on by other things, but the core reason was slavery. It was the South's economic livelihood and without it they would've been strangled.

Try and dress it up all you want to defend this pitiful rebel faction that got wrecked by the Union but the states rights and tariff argument was paper-thin then and it is now.

>>3064101
I think it's fine in the former confederacy, but I don't really like it much here is fucking central Indiana.
In the South, it can be considered a remembrance of the the dead soldiers who fought on that side, in the north, it's an insult to the soldiers from that area.

>>3064959
Most modern efforts to build even small public transit system in the US have been boondoggles that cost far more than their return.

It has nothing to do with socialism, if Americans wanted to build them and it was cost effective then they would

>>3065028

Ive seen this in Massachusetts of all places. (including in a trailer park). And well as in a college parking lot (on a pick-up truck).

>>3065017
Did you not read

>they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent States may of right do.

?

It was about states right and section issues, you can try to spin this declaration of secession into your a priori beliefs, but that does not make your beliefs true.

Sorry that your entire liberal worldview that was drilled into you via middle school was built off lies, but hey if you're pissed off you yankees can just force starving irishmen to come kill us again.

>>3065038
When southerners move north they often take southern "culture" with them

File: The historically accurate Confederate Flag.jpg (7KB, 400x308px) Image search: [Google]

7KB, 400x308px

>>3064101
For Eurofriends and other sensible minded individuals who haven't studied this topic in detail, This is your daily reminder that the "Confederate flag" in OP's pick was never, in fact, a flag widespread use by actual confederates, but was only adopted in the 20th century specifically as a symbol of segregation and Jim Crow Laws.

This is what the actual Confederate flag looks like

>>3065074
>Northerners think they have culture

Didn't know spitting in the streets and swearing at traffic counted as a culture

>>3065058
those state rights and cultural divisions were mostly the result of slaver ownership and the slave economy.

In fact many in the North felt that the fugitive slave act was a gross violation of "states rights" Nor at the time of succession was there any plan to tighten restrictions on slavery in slave states. The south flipped out when a republican was elected because he could *potentially* put in place rules on new states that would weaken the position of the slave state block in congress.

>>3065058
So Bleeding Kansas and the issue of congressional representation and slave states were merely trifles? They didn't figure at all into things? And the fact that the states right which they were so adamant about maintaining, that being slavery, was inconsequential as well?

Your post didn't advance your argument in any meaningful way. Saying that the war wasn't about slavery or at least principally concerned with slavery is willful ignorance. Perhaps the declaration of secession makes a convincing argument in isolation, but viewed in the context of the tumultuous events of the 1850s, it doesn't hold up.

>>3065000
Are you illiterate? That's not the statement of secession, it's a legal discussion of the history of the document. Your quote is mostly talking about declaration of independence and the articles of confederation. It's not an extract from the declaration of secession. You know what's in the actual document?

>the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in then withdrawing from the Federal Union; but in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other slaveholding States, she forbore at that time to exercise this right. Since that time, these encroachments have continued to increase, and further forbearance ceases to be a virtue.
>For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution.

There's also a lot of complaining about how northern states aren't returning escaped slaves.

http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~ras2777/amgov/secession.html

File: 02.jpg (19KB, 250x396px) Image search: [Google]

19KB, 250x396px

>>3065083
You talk like your only knowledge of Northern culture comes from watching TV.

Pic related, you get statues like these in virtually every small town in New England. We like making statues too, the only difference is that we only like statues of winners.

My tiny, backwoods farming town alone has like, three war memorials, and the last place I lived was across the street from a Union cemetery and an old textile mill which had been converted into loft apartments for wealthy STEM professionals

Oh yeah, we also keep commercial chains confined to specific areas and in virtually every town you go through, big and small, you still get shitloads of small independent businesses and delis with either the freshest seafood or the most fucking delicious pizza you ever shoveled into your gullet.

the only place in the South which still has authentic culture (not handed to them by a television guy from New York or Los Angeles) is Charleston, SC

>>3065091
>Muh slavery was the only reason for the war yet again

Jeez you really have a hard time reading. States rights was about living in a confederation of states where the states are their own countries who get to dictate their own laws fully with a more limited central government. The problem with your view is you only take into account the 1850's and not america since the revolutionary war. It was much more deeply rooted issue than just slavery. Slavery was seen as the final straw in a long chain of growing differences and disputes between the north and south.

>Slavery is a violation of states rights

No, using the federal government of s sections power within a political body to force states you hate to change their ways is a violation of states rights.

>In isolation it doesn't hold up to my views
>More a priori deductive reasoning

Pure idealogy. Your entire worldview is in isolation of events outside of the 1850's.

>>3065133
>Northern culture is s statue of what was their culture

Northern culture has died completely , all anyone in the north has for culture is then LARP'ing about their pre colonial heritage in Europe. I mean , you citing the existence of small businesses as "culture" bwahahah

>>3064507
confederates were like nazi's in the sense they were mostly inept/incompetent opportunists with conservative sympathies. Also they sucked at logistics despite some decent tacticians.

the Neo-confederates are like nazi's in their incompetence/stupidity but also their reactionary yearning for something that never existed in the first place.

>>3065140
>Jeez you really have a hard time reading. States rights was about living in a confederation of states where the states are their own countries who get to dictate their own laws fully with a more limited central government.
That's bullshit. One of the confederate states' chief gripes was that the fugitive slave act was not being properly enforced and Northern states were not returning runaways even though the law said that they had too.

Confederates loved States' Rights except when they didn't. They only invoked it when they were being selfish cunts (like the governor of South Carolina refusing to share fresh uniforms with Lee's Virginians who were dying of exposure from lack of proper clothing) or on the diplomatic front, because the argument that blacks are actually inferior was falling on deaf ears in European courts, so their solution is to just get really vague and ideological and achieve victory through solipsism and hope nobody notices what's going on in the cotton fields.

>>3065152
>I mean , you citing the existence of small businesses as "culture" bwahahah

Just keep whacking the TV if the reception keeps coming in shitty, Cletus. That will help you feel superior in whatever shithole of a trailer park you call home, eating whatever grease and BBQ covered slabs of diabetes you call food.

>>3064101
>is it about hate or heritage?
Neither, its about being butthurt their inferior way of life was supplanted by something objectively better.

>>3065008
> "Lost Cause" ideology was nursed in the backwoods by bumfuck hicks

from what I've heard it was butthurt confederate veterans. or rather their offspring.

"Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy", along with history books written by mostly southern professors in the 1890's-1900's, romanticized the Confederacy.

>>3065179
>Even more muh slavery

Look up what a proper means ffs, because you obviously know nothing about analytic philisophy. Like I said, slavery was the final straw in a long list of events and differences between the north and south , all you just said re affirms that statement.

>He thinks the north was pro racial egalitarianism

Topkek , you really drank the cool aid didn't you?

>>3065195
It was segregationists about 80 years later who lead the neo-confederate revival specifically as a statement supporting segregation and Jim Crow

>>3065191
>Now that he has run out if arguments he fallen upon argumentum ad hominems

Well, I'd Cletus at the trailer park can beat you in an argument then I guess that makes you dumber than an inbred dipshit kekekek

File: map-slave-growth1.jpg (4MB, 1395x1967px) Image search: [Google]

4MB, 1395x1967px

>>3065199
>le north was just as racist as the south meme

>>3065199
There's a difference between being racist and owning slaves and expanding the slave trade.

>>3065193
All you did was send hordes of half starved irishmen you stole from New York to kill us, freed the slaves, then refuses to take them when they came North because apparently you hated negroes more than we did.

Now you have the balls to say your idiocy was superior. Lmao

>>3065208
>he fallen upon argumentum ad hominems
Says the guy pretending to laugh in an online image board.
>"bwahahah"
Now how can a degenerate Yankee like me ever compete with compelling prose like that?

Is this the part where you tell me that you were only pretending to be retarded?

>>3065210
>Le we took these negroes into our homes instead of hung them, beat them , and tried to get them move back to the South meme

Topkek, you know the KK had a senator elected in Indiana, which was the heart if the KKK. Indiana isn't a southern state :^)

>>3065217
>There is a difference between treating blacks like cattle and treating blacks like shit

Hey I guess you're right , I guess you treating them like shit instead of cattle really benefitted them

>>3065227
>Cherry-picking this hard
You know that the entire confederate economy was dominated by the slave trade right? Even if only a tiny fraction owned them, most southern whites were employed either directly or indirectly as a result of their presence, and it was a form of job security that any southern white, no matter how down on his luck, could grab his gun and get a job as a slave overseer and devote his life to terrorizing negro slaves into getting their quotas up. They didn't call it "king cotton" for nothing.

But yeah, making them suffer capitalism is so much worse.

Wait, who put all the black people on North America?

>>3065218
All I see from your statement was a net positive.

>>3065235
Yeah it did. If you honestly believe that blacks were better off as slaves then there's no use arguing with you.

>>3065219
>He has now stopped arguing entirely

Bwahaha

>>3065227
that was during the nadir of race relations and was in part due to Dixieboo propaganda.

>>3065246
Because there's literally nothing to argue about, Cletus, you're not making any quantifiable statements about culture other than "I don't think it's culture, there for it's not", and you certainly don't have anything to say in defense of the state of southern culture in 2017

>>3065240
>Cherry picked

You had klan chapters all over the north, you had race riots all over the north, you had police best the shit out if negroes all over the north...

>Cherrypicking

Indeed.

>Everyone loved slavery

Wrong. If the Confederacy loved slavery so mcub why did they keep the ban on the international slave trade meanwhile places like Brazil didn't? It's almost like local whites couldn't compete with the local cotton barons and didn't want more slaves to be brought into the US and most Southerners were farmers.

Weird.

>>3065244
Yeah I think they were better off. They werent treated nearly as bad as people go on about, in a lot of ways they were seen as family (at least among the middle class)

>>3065248
>Th-they was only because of southern shills and it was just a low point. Before the first world war every white person in the north had the opinions if modern day liberals


Why do you liberals always project modern phenomena on the past?

>>3065250
>I'm not saying anything

I just said over and over again that the main cause of the civil war wasn't slavery , and instead of confronting the evidence I brought up you've gone on a complete tangent and now want to get me a ban for talking about contemporary southern politics.

This is /his/, discussion on contemporary politics belongs on /pol/
>>>/pol/

>>3065265
Doesn't change the fact that they were someone's property and considered to be chattel, unable to decide their own destinies or work to improve themselves, and could be separated from their families if it tickled their master's fancy or pocketbook.

Perhaps they were treated like shit, have gone through a lot of shit as a community, and don't always do what they need to do to improve their situations, but they aren't other people's property anymore.

To say they were "treated well" misses the entire point. Prisoners might thrive in a prison environment, maybe ever moreso than in the outside world, but they never lose reckoning of the fact that they are imprisoned.

But again, I don't expect to convince you. It's no use arguing with someone who is a nonironic supporter of slavery.

>>3065263
>You had klan chapters all over the north, you had race riots all over the north, you had police best the shit out if negroes all over the north...
Yes, that's all so much more horrible than shackling them in a barn and beating them for missed quotas and daring to read a book.

>b why did they keep the ban on the international slave trade meanwhile places like Brazil didn't?
Because they didn't need to. They were having a well enough time breeding them here on their own.
>It's almost like local whites couldn't compete with the local cotton barons and didn't want more slaves to be brought into the US and most Southerners were farmers.
You answered your own question before you even asked it: The south went from being the most economically productive region of the country during revolutionary times to being a decrepit backwater which was being grossly outpaced economically by the north by the 1860's. Because the large plantations drove so many southerners off their farms that the only jobs to be found was in the cotton industry, and in the end it completely crippled the South's ability to industrialize.

"King Cotton", not "my wacky third uncle whom nobody takes seriously Cotton"

File: 87_15012583_2_1458490926_636x435.jpg (63KB, 636x424px) Image search: [Google]

63KB, 636x424px

>>3065278
>I just said over and over again that the main cause of the civil war wasn't slavery , and instead of confronting the evidence I brought up you've gone on a complete tangent and now want to get me a ban for talking about contemporary southern politics.
Typical wishy-washy confederate apologist, trying to dodge the entire fucking conversation that he started.

What we were specifically talking about was the presence of culture in the north vs the south. I gave examples to counter your point, you went full retard, I called you out on it, and now here you are desperately trying to weasel your way out of the discussion.

Still have nothing nice to say about Southern culture in 2017? Because let me tell you, there are some pretty darn beautiful pockets of it remaining. I feel a sense of regret knowing how much they sacrificed just to keep their welfare state going.

>>3065285
Sorry pal , you've rationalized a lie so far that is hopeless for you. They were better off as slaves. Now that they're free there is no going back, we aren't going to establish their in country and they are going to continually be persecuted and hated.

We can't give them a Liberia unfortunately. But hey, that was your dumbasses decision. Now the only way to keep the is total denial of biological determinism and creating an infinite amount of nee racial castes in order to satisfy a utopian post racial ideal. The Yankee's cognitive dissonance knows no bounds.

>>3065288
>Yes, that's all so much more horrible than shackling them in a barn and beating them for missed quotas and daring to read a book.
>Yankes actually believe this

Wew lad

>Because they didn't need to. They were having a well enough time breeding them here on their own.

Wrong , it would've been more efficient to import them on the international market. They chose to limit slavery.

>Extreme urbanite Yankee posting about how much it sucks to be a poor farmers

Kill yourself you urbanite degenerate, there is nothing wrong with living a simple life. Not everyone is jealous of material wealth like you

>>3065306
>believing that human beings desire freedom
>a lie

If it wasn't so bad, why don't you try it?

>The Yankee's cognitive dissonance knows no bounds
Awww, cute, an ad hominem. Is poor (emphasis on poor) wittle Cletus upset? Why don't you just secede again and see what happens.

File: abraham_lincoln_quote.jpg (47KB, 400x277px) Image search: [Google]

47KB, 400x277px

>>3065320
>Wew lad
Read a book. One written by an actual historian

>Wrong , it would've been more efficient to import them on the international market. They chose to limit slavery.
>>3065210
Yeah, that looks SO limited!

>Being this buttblasted
yess, yess, your tears are like sweet, soothing nectar to me. I do love these talks we have, Cletus

Your response to
>>3065152
Was
>>3065191

If you call that an argument up north and not an ad hominem then it looks like I was right about you being rude and LARP'ing as pre colonials

>>3065332
>Read a book. One written by an actual historian

I have. You have obviously only seen meme image.

>Yeah that looks so limited
>Looks

Absolute plebian, yes, compared to importing them from international markets that is limited. God the liberals on /his/ are retarded.

>>3065303
See
>>3065333

>>3065140

>Jeez you really have a hard time reading. States rights was about living in a confederation of states where the states are their own countries who get to dictate their own laws fully with a more limited central government. The problem with your view is you only take into account the 1850's and not america since the revolutionary war. It was much more deeply rooted issue than just slavery. Slavery was seen as the final straw in a long chain of growing differences and disputes between the north and south.

I am very aware of the conflicts over taxation and the nullification crisis, and while those fed into the conflict they were not what brought it to the breaking point, that was, as I said the restrictions the republicans wanted to put on allowing new slave states into the union.

>>Slavery is a violation of states rights

That's not what I said. I said the fugitive slave act which required northern governments to be a party to returning run away slaves to their southern masters was an abuse of state rights.

>>3065336
Out if that entire post you somehow though I wanted to bring slavery back? Then you have the balls to call my analysis of your character an ad hominem when it was merely a comment on my own arguments and not an attack meant to refute any of yours?

Sub 80 IQ detected, Jesus. I was talking about how we should've given the slaves their own country instead of try and integrate the into ours because it would avoid conflict

>>3065330
>>3065352

>>3065346
>they were not what brought it to the breaking point,

Secession is more complicated than the 1800's, like I keep trying to tell you. The seeds of Secession were planted back in the Jeffersonians vs Federalist days of the founding of thr US following the war. It goes all the way back then , and only continued to worse decade after decade.

>>3064509
>However, acknowledging this does nothing to improve the situation.
Yes, it does, absolutely. What the fuck is wrong with you?

>My point is that the flag represents an underlying frustration of having to support them.
Yea, it doesn't feel too good when you're forced to work for someone else.

File: 1496079398427.png (497KB, 854x479px) Image search: [Google]

497KB, 854x479px

>>3065336
>Being against owning another human being entirely against their will makes you a liberal.

You would almost think the values of personal freedom and self determination inherent to conservatives would make slavery unpalatable.

>>3065354
I fully understood your point, Cletus, I just think that it's so ridiculous that it needs no addressing.

They were brought here by compulsion. They raised families here and have lived here for generations. But yeah sure giving them their own country is just a quick-fix solution.

There's no point in arguing with someone with your beliefs.

>>3065333
You need me to pick it to pieces for you?

>Northern culture has died completely
Subjective statement. Disregarded
> all anyone in the north has for culture is then LARP'ing about their pre colonial heritage in Europe.
Do you need me to show you more statues of victorious Union soldiers? Because there are hundreds of them in my area

> the existence of small businesses as "culture"
In the south you get Denny's and Waffle House, monolithic chain restaurants which serves the same sub-par greasy-shit menu at every one of its run-down locations. In the north you get a different deli in every town, each one with its own specialties and services. You get enough people who are property owners and they live a good middle class lifestyle, which fuels a powerful tax-base which pays for some of the finest educational institutions and infrastructure in the world.

You got all buttblasted and accused me of attacking the simple life, when it is Yankees who have the simple life figured out, because their economy is still dominated by decentralized independent property owners practicing localism, the exact same thing you got butt-blasted about when you assumed that all Yankees live in some dense urban area.

>>3065368
The US Constitution only goes back a few years before the 1800's and yes, where was always a divide between those who wanted a decentralized union of states and those who wanted a strong federal government (and those in between) and the south was a hot bed of the former, but to imply the confederacy was somehow the culmination of the small government cause is to ignore the actual casus belle. The south had no problem using federal power to shore up and spread slavery. it was only when the balance of power shifted and the north threatened to reverse those trends that they decided to succeed.

>>3065382
>Being such an anti-dialogical brainlet that you otherize other opinions as being inferior to your own on the basis of your opinions being the truth a priori

Sad

>>3065391
>Do you need me to show you more statues of victorious Union soldiers? Because there are hundreds of them in my area

Lol, statues aren't a culture. We aren't defending our statues in South because of the war, we are doing it to defend our actual culture. Unlike you, we avoided the cosmopolitanism until recently. If you are denying that the north hasn't become more multicultural than the south... You might need to get your head checked

>In the south you get Denny's and Waffle House, monolithic chain restaurants which serves the same sub-par greasy-shit menu at every one of its run-down locations. In the north you get a different deli in every town, each one with its own specialties and services. You get enough people who are property owners and they live a good middle class lifestyle, which fuels a powerful tax-base which pays for some of the finest educational institutions and infrastructure in the world.
>Culture is only restaurants

Holy fucking shit , no culture Geo's beyond what food you eat. The South isn't just sweet tea and barbecue, and if your understanding of the north is onto food and a few statues then you have no culture. Eating haggis doesn't make you Scottish, and culture isn't just statues and food lmao

File: SIGNS.jpg (146KB, 1200x785px) Image search: [Google]

146KB, 1200x785px

>>3065152

>Small Buisness are not culture

Yeah having a whole town of welfare recipients, drug sellers, and the entire industry being dependent on walmart and other vulgarian corporate nonculture is a way better culture and way of conducting life

>>3065399
No, ignoring the intellectual legacy whose heritage was readily visible in both the north and south during the decades leading up to the civil war is ignoring the casus belli of the civil war,.massively.

>>3064366
This has to be copied from somewhere.

>>3065456
>you have no culture
Something only ever said by anthropological illiterates. If you ever accuse any group, ever, of "not having culture" then you're just demonstrating that you have no idea what "culture" means.

Here's a question, if you go to New England, how do the people behave? Do they behave the same as people from e.g. Northern Virginia and Maryland? (no) Does either group behave the same as people from Pennsylvania? (no) Do the buildings, towns, the city layouts, look alike? (no) Do the people occupy themselves in the same ways, do they tend to have the same hobbies, the same values? (no) Do either of those three groups act anything like southerners? (no)

What's the difference? Culture. Obviously.

File: HNOoTP0.jpg (59KB, 470x813px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 470x813px

Reminder

>>3065461
>What traditions down the north have
>what spirit does it try to preserve,
>what mannerisms are quintessentially northern
>What pride to northerners have

Those are questions to ask about northern culture. Your ad hominem about the creeping death of culture at the hands of neo liberal capitalism is something that hit the north the hardest, I'm not going to deny that it's gotten bad in the South as well.

>>3064477
No one cares. Since we're indulging in bullshit sentiment and generalities, let me spin it this way: rather than rise up by your own efforts and labors in industry, your ancestors opted for chattel plantations - that supreme symbol of unearned right, sloth and gluttony. They basked in warm suns that could have yielded the most fertile crops to feed a burgeoning industry - to feed a free, hardworking people and instead chose to grow pointless luxuries to feed the frivolities and vices of distant peoples. And to indulge in all this self-delusion, they crafted a system that ground everyone down into the dirt - that degraded high and low alike. I can only sit here, a stolid Yankee used to work and suffering through harsh winters illumined only by a feeble gray sun, the old machines fed as much by oil as by my own blood, and narrow my eyes in contempt at the Southern creature. Everything bad you've ever said of the black man, is really about yourselves.

>implying i'll even reply
I came here to mock you.

>>3065492
>Made war on us

All you had to do was evacuate Ft Sumter and the other forts in South Carolina instead of reinforce them with fresh troops and ammo. Seriously. War could've avoided had the north just done that. Then you had the nerve to tell your civilians to ''come watch the Battle of Bull Run it'll be funny watching our superior military kick the shit out of the Southerners" only for us to force you back.

>>3065506
>>What traditions down the north have

St Patrick's day, St Anthony's Feast, Halloween is a Northeastern/New England thing originally, Fleet Week in NYC, Baseball, Seafood, I can go on and on

>>what spirit does it try to preserve,

A spirit of hard working individualistic people holding on to the traditions of their old country while also making themselves become ensconced in the greater American fabric

>>what mannerisms are quintessentially northern

The tough attitude, the brusque way we speak, our unmatched sense of humor and the intelligent way we carry ourselves down tot he poorest yokel due to our superior education system

>>What pride to northerners have

Pride in winning the civil war, pride in being the smartest part of this country, pride in defeating the British, Pride in our great Nautical tradition, Pride in being a part of this country that works and isn't a backwards third world shithole, Pride in our sporting teams doing consistently well.

>>3065535

> All you had to do was remove your belt, drop your pants, take off your underwear, and bend over this kitchen table.

>>3065518
>Every southerner is Colonel Sanders sitting in the shade while he has is Aryan male Nazis whip black people in cotton fields

You are such a sanctimonious faggot that it's painful. Most of the Southerners were poor or lower middle class farmers who eventually were forced to start growing cotton (without slaves) because it was the only way to make a decent living. The slaves owned by the middle class were mostly servants who did no hard manual labor.

File: 95dd49dcb901985c36422dc8f3b4a093[1].jpg (1MB, 3008x2000px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 3008x2000px

I hate black people more than most, but let me tell you; the Confederacy were traitors. Be proud of your white American heritage, but do so using the right flag.

>>3065565
All you had to do was actually let us secede instead of lead to 600,000 dead Americans. Guess you Yanks get off on murder, so in a way that is like getting sodomized to you kek

>>3064151

The more I read about him the more I like him.

Before, I thought he was a traitor like the rest of the confederacy. But now I can say I have respect for him

>>3065477
casus belli is always the incident that causes the war, not the underling social tensions that predate it by decades.

Your ignoring that the south was happy to use federal power until it had the potential to turn on them.

>>3065591
Preventing the south from seceding was necessary to legitimize liberal democracy (that's classical liberalism, yes) in an era when much of the world still doubted it would succeed. Letting the country fracture into pieces would have confirmed to e.g. much of Europe that "yeah, that's just not a viable system, long-term."

It is not like there was much benefit to actually keeping you in the country on your own merits. The south has been a drain on the rest of the country since then, economically and socially.

It's never gonna happen, but personally, I wish you'd try to secede again, and I wish we'd let you. We'd both be happier.

It's a strange sensation to be southern and not support secession, while also hating northern shitheads like this guy
>>3065637

>>3064366
Oh, I dunno, maybe you guy could have maybe not willfully import millions upon millions of Africans.

You really reap what you sow

>>3065560
>St Patrick's day, St Anthony's Feast, Halloween is a Northeastern/Ne

All of those come from Irish culture. Halloween comes from samhain. We celebrate all of those too. Not making a good case against my accusation of Northern culture having degenerated into European LARP'ing

>
A spirit of hard working individualistic people holding on to the traditions of their old country while also making themselves become ensconced in the greater American fabric

Lol that isnt northern culture, that is American culture in general. The empire mentality of the US wants to make that the only culture in the US as well, so you telling me that as being something uniquely northern is not a good sign. In fact the final two answers you give are not quintessentially northern , but in fact generally Americans besides a fee consumeristic holidays in NYC. You don't even know your own culture beyond "you won the war". You're just as bad as southerners who say they same things as you do as being "quintessentially southern" but who only know that they lost the war.

>>3065654
Too late!

>>3065652
I'm in the same boat as you Anon, but you're being a patriot and loyalist. You're the right type of American, loyal, but not an ass like: >>3065637 who doesn't consider loyal southerners who don't support any kind of secession.

File: 1498176308127.jpg (197KB, 1600x1024px) Image search: [Google]

197KB, 1600x1024px

>>3065637
>A Yankee who hasn't read de Tocqueville yet prides himself on superior education in the North

Democracy is beyond and imperfect system, it's nothing to pride yourself on in the slightest , let alone trying to preserve "liberal democracy" via ad infinitum wars

>>3065656
>Lol that isnt northern culture, that is American culture in general

Not really, American culture in most of this country is vapid capitalist spending to fill the void in every American's soul, whiie the only genuine people I have ever met in this entire country were in the northeast

File: download (2).jpg (7KB, 191x263px) Image search: [Google]

7KB, 191x263px

>>3065654
Well we always had this weird idea of sending them back if we got sick of them. But then some moron had to go and shoot the one chance we had at making Liberia 2.0

>>3065673
>The average age of the world's greatest civilization has been 200 years.
How can one believe this man when current year and current governments and civilizations prove him wrong.

>>3065673

>An American that hates Democracy

Lol, if you want to get told what to do and bullied by authoritarians like the good little cuck you are leave and go to China. Authoritianism is merely a symptom of repressed homosexual urges

>>3065674
Everything you just described was vapid capitalist enforced character you can find anywhere in the country. Pacific Northwest, Southwest, Midwest , South and Northern. New England has some remnants of it's culture , but it, like the rest of the country is being replaced by a creeping materialism and astro turf of actual culture.

Unfortunately the North is far more urbanized and has become increasingly "multi cultural" which in itself implies the replacement of northern culture.

File: 34262436.gif (495KB, 500x317px) Image search: [Google]

495KB, 500x317px

>>3065673
>the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury
What a genius!

>>3065682
You realize that average he is talking about is the average lifespan of every civilization added together and divided by the total number of civilizations, right? 200 to 300 is the average , and every civilization follows periods of peace with periods of struggle where the zeitgiest of said civilization is eventually replaced with something new.

>>3065693

Not really, Multiculturalism isn't really what you have in the Northeast, It's more like the melting pot. You go out to pus in Massachusetes and find Indians drinking and playing darts just like the Irish were doing 50 years before and the English were doing 100 years before that

>>3065684
>He is the kind of faggot who has read through adorno's authoritarian personality but not the kind of faggot who has read de Tocqueville, a person who unlike adorno defends liberal democracy

I don't hate democracy and neither does de Tocqueville, I just don't worship democracy as a flawless and God like system and recognize that it fails and must sometimes be kicked to the side.

>>3065697
>Thinks he is smarter than de Tocqueville

Nice ego you have their

>>3065714
>Melting pot theory

Doesn't happen, to have a melting pot you have to literally replace all culture with vapid consumerism like you were just complaining about. Having Indians celebrate Irish holidays that had actual cultural significance and is now just people wearing green and going to an Irish pub is not culture, it's consumerism.

Indians having their own culture sabotaged by hedonism is also not a good sign.

>>3065652
>>3065668
I'm that guy. You can think I'm an ass/shithead all you like, but let me clarify:

I don't actually hate the south. Saying you've been an economic drain on the rest of the country since the Civil War is a simple fact, but it's not because you're all worthless and lazy: it has a lot to do with the south's lack of urbanization (relatively speaking; obviously there are urban pockets) and the fact that, of course, it was economically devastated by the war itself. I put it insultingly because, hey, this is 4chan, and besides, plenty of southerners have shit on me in this thread. But I don't really despise you.

I also think it's pretty clear at this point that the north and south have grown apart culturally. Really all the regions of the country have grown apart, but the north/south divide is the starkest. We have different values and favor very different economic & social policies, with the result that there's constant gridlock in Congress and whoever's elected president, 150 million people are deeply unhappy. That's not a good situation. The truth is that while I'm a big believer in representative democracy, I'm not sure it works in a culturally divided country of 300 million people.

It's not just the south. Plenty of America's component regions would make viable countries (and if actually splitting up the US hurts too much, we can still call it one country - but give each of the regions complete autonomy). It's funny that every time I propose "the south should secede again," people always assume that I expect the north & south to promptly become enemies and settle into some kind of cold war. Of course not. Jesus. We're literally family. I think both sides would be happier as close allies and trading partners - simply not have to share a government.

So that, /bant/-tier insults aside, is my actual position. tl;dr I think it would be best for everyone; I'm not in favor of kicking you out by force. You're welcome to think I'm a shithead if you like.

>>3065456
>Lol, statues aren't a culture.
Yet, you sure do have a lot of tears to shed when somebody takes away your statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest.

>Holy fucking shit , no culture Geo's beyond what food you eat.
You talk about culture, but you are completely disdainful of the artistic expressions of a society, which do in fact, constitute an important aspect of a society's culture. All you are demonstrating is how little you know of every society which isn't your own

>>3065739
>150 million people are unhappy
More like 40 million.

>>3065739
That's fair, but when you put it like that it really makes me consider leaving the United States...
I just don't know what's going on with this country anymore.

>>3065739
>but it's not because you're all worthless and lazy
Then how com they are lionizing and defending glorified welfare queens?

File: confederate flag.png (3MB, 1952x1980px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 1952x1980px

>>3065077
>This is your daily reminder that the "Confederate flag" in OP's pick was never, in fact, a flag widespread use by actual confederates, but was only adopted in the 20th century specifically as a symbol of segregation and Jim Crow Laws.

hahah ok

>>3065754
Like I said before

>We aren't defending our statues in South because of the war, we are doing it to defend our actual culture. Unlike you, we avoided the cosmopolitanism until recently. If you are denying that the north hasn't become more multicultural than the south... You might need to get your head checked

As to your second point, statues are meant to representations of culture, not culture in itself. A statue is meant to signify people worthy of remembrance , just because Cairo has the pyramids does not mean that the modern day egyptians worship the old gods of Egyptian Paganism. Greece still has the acroplis of Athens , yet people there are Orthodox, not pagans (except maybe a few people in the golden dawn).

Culture is living, not set in stone. The presence of certain monuments does not imply there is culture, it is a landmark fo where culture was.

File: 8960858967978049.jpg (49KB, 464x512px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 464x512px

>>3065560
>pride in defeating the British

The brits were defeated in the south mate

>>3065632
But the intellectual heritage of the Federalist vs Jeffersonians IS the immediate cause of the war. I suppose our perception of time is different.

>>3065456
>>3065786

You know those statues were built by certain groups in an attempt to commemorate certain figures in an attempt to deny the wars true purpose and engaging in historical revisionism.

Imagine if in post ww2 Germany built statues of it's key Nazi figures and said "x was a defender of the state" and completely ignoring all the bad shit they did or the fact that they I dunno killed a lot of people?

>>3065792
>based vermont once again elevates itself against the rest of NE with the lowest cuck porn rates in the country

>>3065761
That's low even if we're just counting the people who voted for the candidate who lost (~65 million people in 2016), and not counting the people who would have voted but were ineligible (or couldn't make it), or the people who were nonvoters because they lived in swing states but did prefer one candidate over the other, which I think is a large demographic.

It also discounts the people who were nonvoters because they disliked both candidates. I think it's fair to say those people were "unhappy with the result," even if they wouldn't have necessarily preferred the other result. I believe part of the reason we have such a low voter turnout in the US is because 1) people feel disillusioned with the polarization and gridlock in our country, and 2) it's hard to feel like your vote counts when it's one of over a hundred million. Because it doesn't count for very much. Counts for almost nothing if you don't live in a swing state.

I'm not trying to speak perfectly precisely; call it 65 million or 100 million or 130 million, I don't care, the point is, everything can function perfectly as intended, and enough people to constitute one of the most populous European countries feel jaded and upset. Not just, "well, shit, we lost," but "I don't understand this country anymore. I worry for this country's future."

That's not a good state of affairs.

File: nbf[1].jpg (68KB, 506x338px) Image search: [Google]

68KB, 506x338px

>>3065754
>Yet, you sure do have a lot of tears to shed when somebody takes away your statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest.

except they can't by law. It's the BLM activists in Memphis that are crying that it's not being removed.

>>3065805
United Daughters of the Confederacy if I recalle.

>>3065812
>"I don't understand this country anymore. I worry for this country's future."

that was 100% of the population in 2016

who the fuck were you talking to that was genuinely excited over the direction this country was going in the end obama era?

the joke is you try to paint the issue as product of muh trump but in reality the stormclouds were on the horizon as early as 2012 if not before. You just disregarded them or shunted them off as crazy le tea partier. Bet you wish you had the crazy tea partier in office now compared to this!

File: U.S._Vote_for_President_as_Population_Share.png (84KB, 699x462px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 699x462px

>>3065684
Alexander Hamilton called Democracy "a poison". The US wasn't founded as a democracy and the founding fathers barely talked about it. The spread of enfranchisement only happened during the 1820's which is exactly when Tocqueville was writing his account.

>>3065786
>>We aren't defending our statues in South because of the war, we are doing it to defend our actual culture.
A legacy of segregation, Jim Crow, and the whitewashing, blatant revising, and glorification of violence against your own country.

There are much better facets of your culture to be memorializing

> Unlike you, we avoided the cosmopolitanism until recently.
I live in a log cabin in the woods. It takes me less than an hour to get to the two big metropolitan areas near me. A large part of New England are still small towns and rural areas, it's just that the cities get all the attention because they're economic power houses driving the economy.

The only shitty areas of the north are places west of Pennsylvania, which got hammered hard by a combination of outsourcing and automation.

In the south you get sprawling megacities like Atlanta. What's your excuse for that mess of a city?

>>3065805
You build statues of people worth remembering. They still have statues of Lenin being built and maintained all around the world.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statues_of_Vladimir_Lenin

Same with Stalin

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statues_of_Stalin

There are statues of Hitler as well, they are just hidden from the public. The point I'm trying to make is that statues do no inherently mean the presence of culture if the culture that the monument is dedicated to is no longer followed.

File: arc_600_390[1].jpg (56KB, 640x412px) Image search: [Google]

56KB, 640x412px

>>3065805
imagine if France built a massive memorial to their failed despotic Napoleonic regime.

>>3065829
>and the founding fathers barely talked about it.
No, they talked about it a lot. They criticized it because they sought to improve upon it, to learn from previous attempts and keep it from collapsing back into authoritarianism.

The near universal solution to this problem that they came up with was the importance of an educated citizenry being absolutely vital to the preservation of a free state.

https://famguardian.org/Subjects/Politics/ThomasJefferson/jeff1350.htm

>>3065834
>A legacy of segregation, Jim Crow,

All good things , integration is a mistake. Something I can agree with black nationalists on.

>accusations of Revisionism coming from a Yankee

Sorry that we think the war was over more than just slavery.

>Conveniantly leaving out
>NYC
>Boston
>Detroit
>Cleveland
>Philidelphia
>The entire rust belt
>Connecticut

To avoid being contaminated you had to move out into a log cabin ffs. The south fought being reconstructed and industrialized for a link damn time like you already mentioned.

>>3065834
how is the whitewashing of the confederates any different than the whitewashing of the founding fathers?

The patriots fought on the side of slavery when the british attempted to free them during the revolution. 1/3 of NYC household owned slaves prior to the revolution and the british freed and evacuated most of them.

File: mfw.jpg (59KB, 1200x627px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 1200x627px

>>3065845
You mean the one which completely reshaped the face of Europe and laid the groundwork for the modern age?

Yeah, *totally* comparable to building a statue of a glorified terrorist. And a shitty one, at that.

>>3065826
>the joke is you try to paint the issue as product of muh trump
I certainly haven't done that and if you're not talking to me, I wonder why you quoted me. Seriously, it's like you hallucinated a different post and then replied to that, I never once mentioned Trump. Where on earth did you get the idea that I thought that people were "genuinely excited over the direction this country was going" in 2016?

Let me be clear.

I think political polarization is inevitable in a representative democracy with hundreds of millions of people and significant regional cultural divides. I also think it is inevitable that in such a populous country people will start to feel powerless and disconnected from their government.

In 2016, both candidates were deeply disliked even by many of their supporters. I think we got such controversial, disliked candidates BECAUSE of the unhealthy state of modern American politics, which is caused by that state of polarization and disconnection.

So. Do you disagree?

>>3065849
They also failed miserably, a well educated citizenry via compulsory education didn't occur until the 1850's, starting in Massachusetts.

Furthermore, public schooling has only made people more prone to what de Tocqueville described. They are little more than indoctrination centers. I swear people become dumber in public schooling somehow.

>>3065856
Nobody whitewashes the founding fathers any more, it's basically common knowledge that Thomas Jefferson railed all day about the importance of freedom and then went home and raped his slaves.

What they do is recognize that every new generation builds upon the accomplishments of the previous ones, and that lionizing the past is pointless romanticism because every new generation pushes the envelope towards a more just society. Or at least they did up until recently.

>>3065873
k keep me posted when they start taking down statues of Washington and calling the Daughters of the American revolution racist.

>>3065864
>So. Do you disagree?

Not that guy but I do agree, however I wonder what the solution is.

>>3065873
>Rapes his slaves

Jefferson believed in freeing the slaves. The slaves he owned he treated the best if his abilities according to law. I wouldn't say "rape" more like "sleep with". He just had jungle fever desu

>>3065860
that's not a public statue, just some autist's private land. You're thinking of >>3065813

>muh glorified terrorist

kek, the fact that the union couldn't even figure out how to charge Davis with treason is evidence enough. defending your homeland against an invading force isn't terrorism.

>3065872
>They also failed miserably, a well educated citizenry via compulsory education didn't occur until the 1850's, starting in Massachusetts.
Some of the most important educational facilities in the country had already been long established by then

>Furthermore, public schooling has only made people more prone to what de Tocqueville described. They are little more than indoctrination centers. I swear people become dumber in public schooling somehow.
What amazed Tocqueville was how frequently Americans transmitted information back and forth, how even the most backwoods town had a mail service with Americans ravenously devouring information.

And schools are not "indoctrination centers" they are a common pool of facts and knowledge from which we derive our common national heritage. The shitty public schools are the underfunded ones, and the only people who profit from an under-educated citizenry are the most shameless type of demagogue and comedians, exactly the thing which brought down the ancient Greek democracies.

>>3065876
Well , more people today are hoping for balkanization. The North West has Cascadia, Northern California has the Free State of Jefferson, there is Texas, and of course the South.

People voted Trump because they want s dictator , and a lot of his vote was on racial lines though people aren't willing to admit that about his anti immigrant stance. The collapse of the consumer culture is going to be hard (if people's predictions are true), so balkanization > dictatorship.

>>3065873
>Nobody whitewashes the founding fathers any more

see >>3065879, mental gymnastics like this is rampant around the US. Especially by the same yankees that will cry about muh ebil confederates.

>>3065879
>He just had jungle fever desu

What did slave women look like back in the day? Surely a far cry from our modern mulatto women.

>>3065535
who won, doh?

>>3065897
the jews

>>3065875
Washington freed his slaves upon his death, and contributed much to the founding of the country.
What did Jefferson Davis contribute?
>>3065879
>Jefferson believed in freeing the slaves.
No, Jefferson did not free his slaves upon death, knowing that it would ruin his family
>>3065885
>kek, the fact that the union couldn't even figure out how to charge Davis with treason is evidence enough.
He got off on a technicality and yes, I'll concede that the North was far, far too soft on the confederates after the war.

>>3065893
aww, you two are so cute together

>>3065892
Although I don't necessarily support balkanization, isn't it essentially inevitable at some point?

>>3065888
>they are a common pool of facts and knowledge from which we derive our common national heritage.

Top. Fucking. Kek. No , federally mandated education systems are complete indoctrination. The only sense of pride people get from it is a false post WW 2 mentality of global police Americanism,that has done nothing besides subvert actual American culture.

The United States is a country comprising many countries, and the federal government does not like that. The same issues that lead to the civil war still exist now.

>Well established education before then

Which was not public education not compulsory.

>de Tocqueville was amazed at how spergish people were about news in the US

And? That was then, this is now. He predicted the current state of the US back then.

>>3065855
>Boston
>NYC

>Shitholes


That delusion kek

>>3065893
>If someone disagrees with me it is mental gymanstics like nigga how can you even disagree with me?

Jefferson abhorred slavery and treated his slaves the best he could. He can't just free them, he also had to think about how his family would be treated.

>>3065904
>Washington freed his slaves upon his death

because he didn't have any heirs. That was pretty common in the south. My ancestor did the same in the 1830's because all his children left the state.

>What did Jefferson Davis contribute?

defending the south when he was called to lead them. Honestly did a lot better than most historians give him credit for. The CSA really had no business going toe to toe with the union for more than a couple years.

>He got off on a technicality

what? the constitution?

>I'll concede that the North was far, far too soft on the confederates after the war.

if anything the north was too vindictive during radical reconstruction and when their corrupt puppet governments eventually fell, the southerners felt vindicated in their original struggle against "yankee tyranny". That's when they began honoring the confederates for fight the "lost cause". The germans and japs got off easier than that.

>>3065938
>NYC
>Boston
>Not shitholes

That delusion, kek

File: Jeffersonslavery.png (89KB, 940x714px) Image search: [Google]

89KB, 940x714px

>>3065941
pic related is his last written opinion on the topic of slavery. Basically supporting the expansion of slavery and warning of a future anti slavery party seeking to destroy the south.

>He can't just free them

kek

>>3065904
>No, Jefferson did not free his slaves upon death, knowing that it would ruin his family

Yes, he believed in freeing the slaves but didn't want to free his own slaves as an individual active, because that would just harm his family. Freeing the slaves required collective actions.

>>3065894
Sally was only 1/4th black. Her daughters were able to pass as white and married into middle class white families.

>>3064101

>>>/pol/ is a better place to discuss

>>3065945

Yeah, Alpha ++ rated world cities that are global destinations for millions of people per year and are the nation's Economic, Cultural, and Educational capitals are shitty.

File: aging-by-state[1].jpg (67KB, 605x453px) Image search: [Google]

67KB, 605x453px

>>3065977
>boston
>Alpha ++

I knew New Englanders had an inflated opinion of themselves but this is getting silly. Half my family's from New Hampshire and Boston and it sucks. Most overrated part of america and I'm glad it's becoming more and more irrelevant.

>>3065379
>However, acknowledging this does nothing to improve the situation.
>Yes, it does, absolutely. What the fuck is wrong with you?
So, we've acknowledged it. How has the situation now improved apart from in philosophical terms?

>My point is that the flag represents an underlying frustration of having to support them.
>Yea, it doesn't feel too good when you're forced to work for someone else.
No, it doesn't and I never claimed that it did. I never claimed that slavery or oppression of blacks was just in any way. I only claimed that having to deal with the fallout has kept southern whites racist and that American blacks are largely dependant on the work of American whites. Do you disagree? Then address my actual point and not whatever tidbit you imagine might represent some southern racist bogeyman's argument.

>>3065972
Reminder: The "Confederate flag" that's in popular usage was never actually used by the Confederacy. That modern variation was literally created and popularized by the Klan as a symbol of racism and white superiority.

If someone wanted to honor Southern soldiers they could easily do that by using a flag the Confederates actually used. Using something that was expressly created to be a symbol of racist thought is comparable to Nazi imagery.

>>3065799
It is not, the question of the balance of power between slave states and free state was the question, specifically the policies of the new republican party concerning the matter.

The south were not good democrats afraid of federal overreach, They continuously used the fed to expand slave territories and protect slave owner rights. Their latter appeals to states rights were a self serving excuse. The south tended only to invoke states rights when the north passed some law like tariffs which were not beneficial to the south.

> I suppose our perception of time is different.

No, you just seem to think to can cleanly cut slavery out of the equation by pointing out the political background--as if the question of slavery was not intimately tied in not only with the breaking point itself (the election of a republican president) but the conflicts between federalists and democrats.

File: img029[1].jpg (424KB, 1286x896px) Image search: [Google]

424KB, 1286x896px

>>3065998
see
>>3065781

stop spreading the same bullshit lies. The KKK didn't even use the confederate flag until the 60's, they used their own flag in conjunction with the american flag. In fact, I bet you can't even find of picture of them waving it on google prior to that.

>>3065799
Then who do all of the seccession declarations specifically cite issues relating to slavery as causes of the war? They don't cite Federalist vs. Jeffersonsian arguments, they identify themselves as slaveholding states, and specifically mention their complaints with the Federal government as relating to their ability to hold slaves and annoyances about the fugitive slave act.

I'm surprised no one has posted the pasta yet.

>>3065998

The "Confederate flag" is based off the original proposed battle flag (the square design was adopted to save resources and because it was more durable). The rectangular design was later recycled for the Army of Tennessee's 1864 flags and the CS Naval Jack.

>>3066012
>stop spreading the same bullshit lies.
the only one spreading bullshit is you

>The KKK didn't even use the confederate flag until the 60's, they used their own flag in conjunction with the american flag. In fact, I bet you can't even find of picture of them waving it on google prior to that.
that's exactly the point, retard, NOBODY did until then.

It was specifically adopted as a statement of support for segregation and Jim Crow

>>3066012
>But never did the flag represent some amorphous concept of Southern heritage, or Southern pride, or a legacy that somehow includes everything good anyone ever did south of the Mason-Dixon line, slavery excluded.

>Fast-forward about 100 years, past thousands of lynchings in the South, past Jim Crow and Plessy v. Ferguson, past the state-sanctioned economic and political subjugation of black people, and beyond the New Deal that all too often gave privileges to the white working class to the specific exclusion of black people.

>In 1948, Strom Thurmond's States' Rights Party adopted the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia as a symbol of defiance against the federal government. What precisely required such defiance? The president's powers to enforce civil rights laws in the South, as represented by the Democratic Party's somewhat progressive platform on civil rights.

http://theweek.com/articles/562004/surprisingly-uncomplicated-racist-history-confederate-flag

>>3066029
>the Army of Tennessee's 1864 flags and the CS Naval Jack.
Not in wide use. Historically obscure until the mid 20th century, when it was popularized by segregationists

>>3065518
My ancestors never owned slaves, but sure. It's my fault. You laugh, but your federal tax dollars go to fixing the same mistake you mock. The same mistake mine go to fixing. The difference is that I'm upset about this because I live near it. I don't know why that is so hard for you to understand, but continue sneering at a whole region, I guess.

>>3064366
You fuckers just couldn't pick your own cotton could you? Some would look at your current predicament as reaping what you sowed, that being said if Lincoln didn't get wasted by Booth, would there have been a chance that he would've sent all the slaves back to Africa? Or did the 13th amendment shoot that down?

>>3065955
Bruh, in this quote he is just calling out the Federalists for trying to make slaves of southern white men by forcing the freeing of the slaves on them under the guise of liberation but rather being a form of gaining a political advantage.

He even alludes them being freed in the future. Lrn2 read faggot.

File: 1493072431790.jpg (68KB, 564x563px) Image search: [Google]

68KB, 564x563px

>>3066030
>that's exactly the point, retard, NOBODY did until then.

are you fucking blind? can you not see these pictures of the flag flying before the time you pretend it all of a sudden appeared? It was used extensively by Confederate veteran groups as well as southern soldiers serving abroad.

>>3064366
check out Quinten Compson over here

>>3064446
>Most people here lead generally fulfilling lives, but our taxes go to keeping black people living scot free in cities that were predominately white until the 90s.

Now you know how it feels to be Californian.

>some of the highest income equality in the country
>despite that California is one of the largest financial contributors to the rest of the country in regards to taxes, disaster relief and program funding
>tfw millions upon millions of your tax dollars go toward helping ignorant white trash in the south who despise you because "DUDE LIBRALS LOL"

>>3066018
Actually, see

>>3065955

The main reason most of the declarations of secession list slavery is because they viewed the forced freeing of the slaves as being the final straw, as I said before. The freeing of the slaves by the republicans would upset congressional representation in the South as the blacks would vote Republican , and the main concern if the South was whether or not they would be used as political tools against the South.

>>3066063
income INequality*

>>3066003
They used the federal government against itself when they thought it was necessary is maintaining a balance of power, that is not the same thing as abusing federal power lmao

File: teen pregnancy.jpg (201KB, 800x497px) Image search: [Google]

201KB, 800x497px

>>3065994

Not providing sex-ed and not providing birth control to your teens and having them squirt out babies before the age of 16 is not something to be proud of.

>>3065977
Lul , Yankees unironically believe that because some neo liberal tourist commission rated New York and Boston highly that this means they are good cities.

>>3066033
yes, and theweek is copypasting the same narrative that was bouncing around all the leftwing newspapers. The flag was still in use during the early 20th century. It flew on the mast of the USS Columbia during WW2 for fuck's sake. It was so commonplace that even Winston Churchill wrote about it.

>"The flags of the Confederate States of America were very important and a matter of great pride to those citizens living in the Confederacy. They are also a matter of great pride for their descendants as part of their heritage and history"

>>3066034
lol, so obscure that it some how found its way onto the Mississippi state flag in the 1890's.

>>3066079
>Teen pregnancy is the worst in places with highest percentages of blacks and Hispanics in the whole country

Hmm... I guess California is fine because of the abortion laws though.

>>3066084

>fuggin noo yurkers, muh sprawl of chain restaurants, walmarts, and strip malls with no public transportation or history is much better hyuk hyuk

>>3066079
Also birth control and sex Ed is degenerate, just teach kids self control instead. Or , you know, eugenics is always an option. Just putting that out there. I'm just saying, the ways things are going maybe Malthus wasn't so wrong, you know?

>>3066063
Thankfully I don't, because I don't pay your outrageous state income tax. That's a sentiment I think everyone shares. No one likes to see someone free riding off their hard work. Reconstruction, Jim Crowe, and the modern welfare state have all been ineffective ways of integrating blacks into southern society. The whole country is tired of paying for it. What would you have us do?

>>3066050
>Bruh, in this quote he is just calling out the Federalists for trying to make slaves of southern white men by forcing the freeing of the slaves on them under the guise of liberation but rather being a form of gaining a political advantage.

It was Jefferson raging at northerners attempting to stop Missouri from being a slave state. He supported it's expansion during the Louisiana purchase and defended the institution until his death. How is that any different of a position than the later confederates?

>He even alludes them being freed in the future.

yeah and so did Lee and every other confederate who pretty much said "god will let the be free when he wills it :D"

>>3066093
>noo yurkers

Who the fuck is this accent supposed to be you Yankee retard bwahaha

>Why is everything in the South chains

Reconstruction.

>>3066079
>thinking that's a map of anything other than brown people
Good work, detective.

>>3066098
>sex is degenerate because i say so
SAD
teens will fuck no matter what you teach them

File: 1499107361992.jpg (524KB, 642x1024px) Image search: [Google]

524KB, 642x1024px

>>3064101
>>3065535
Heres a legitimate question for southerners and/or sucessionalists. What would the world look like if you had managed to break away all those years ago.
I'm wrapping up Turtledove's Southern Victory series and while I know its embellished the idea that the US would hold a long lasting grudge against the south that would lead to more wars was very realistic. Multiple Wars between the states would be a terrible thing.
Not to mention that Slavery wouldn't have lasted that much longer anyway, realistally the south would end up like Brazil. How would you like that?

>>3066104

>muh Reconsturction

Don't start fights you can't win then :^)

>>3066086
Those weren't the same flag as the modern "Rebel flag" design. The phrase "Confederate flag" doesn't mean one thing, ad historically never meant the rectangular cross design that was popularized during the Civil Rights era. It's not about different narratives, it's about people who defend the use of the modern flag using misleading terminology to justify their use of it.

>>3066098
>just teach kids self control instead

Kids will fuck no matter what you tell them. "Degeneracy" is a bullshit concept you only hold because of your social inadequacies in High School leading you to develop a crab bucket mentality

>>3066100
>No one likes to see someone free riding off their hard work.

To the contrary. I actually don't mind my state keeping the Southern retards alive. Helping each other and combining resources is how this country became great in the first place.

>>3066074
They started a war with Mexico to expand potential slave territories and passed a law forcing northern states to treat escaping blacks as property, ignoring their own state law. That isn't getting into the Kansas-Nebraska act and various supreme court decisions pushed through by southern justices.

These policies were as much about the institution of slavery as the balance of power between north and south (In fact many in the south saw the two as one in the same)

>>3066106

> All 1 of the brown people in South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming.

> California one of the brownest states, lower teen pregger rates than every deep south state.

>>3066102
Jefferson was all about collective action towards freedom as being proof of consent , it's completely against his entire doctrine to force a people to do anything, even when that something is an age old institution like slavery. He wanted to avoid needless war causes by the Federalists at all costs, and the South likewise agreed. Until everyone agrees that slavery needs to go on their own terms, we are not forcing people to end slavery. State intervention in the matter is unnecessary as the instituion of slavery was dying on it's own all around the western world. There you go again reinforcing the concept of the South's intellectual heritage coming from the Jeffersonians.

>>3066112
who the fuck knows how it would've panned out over a century later, anyone who answers is just blow hot air.

>realistally the south would end up like Brazil.

the south never had as many blacks as brazil and contrary to the memes they weren't as far behind industrially as a lot of people think. They were able to field and supply a massive army capable of fighting the federal forces in pitched battles for 4 odd years.

>>3066127
actually it was by combining military strength, acquiring massive land holdings and interfering in European wars, then charging them to rebuild their countries.

File: n046321[1].jpg (73KB, 600x447px) Image search: [Google]

73KB, 600x447px

>>3066116
than what designs are these?
>>3065781
>>3066057

>>3066110
>Sex is degenerate

No, sex is a necessary function of s healthy love life you moron. Just pull out you fucking idiot, or put on a condom, the side affects to your girl being on birth control are awful.

The problem I have with relationships today is that people have forgotten the teleological purposes of said relationships and have abandoned these purposes in favor of hedonism. Sex can be way more than just physical fun, but you morons can't see past that like the horny school children you are lol

>>3066114
We didn't start it :^), but go ahead and send more hordes of irishmen to kill poor people , not like you industrialist assholes care about the poor.

>>3066127
I agree to an extent. To rephrase my question: Aren't you tired of sending your resources to a lost cause? Wouldn't they be better spent otherwise? Personally I think education funding should be a higher priority. I know it's funded at the state level, but is rather see national funds diverted to that or state works programs rather than just straight up gibs. Sure, a certain amount of welfare is necessary in this case, but the current model seems counterproductive. We've nurtured a state of dependency which has created an idle, restless class in the South. It's equal parts sad and infuriating.

>>3066146
>sex needs to be this intricate thing that i made up in my mind instead of the simple thing it is

i dont know why people get this idea that sex is somewhat need to be this sacred ritual and trying to put their 'theological' abstract concept on people

>>3066132
I guess you don't know about abortion laws in California, also those states you listed are rural and underpopulated as fuck. That's a different scenario completely. Teen pregnancy isn't in itself bad, teen pregnancy out of wedlock is bad.

>>3066110
I guess you haven't heard of mormonism.

>>3066155
>Teleologial
>Theological

Pick one you idiot , and read a book before i show your gf how a real man has sex with his girl.

>>3066124
>Degeneracy is made up

Yeah getting fucked on camera for money strung out on heroin is freedom, and getting pregnant out of wedlock is cool because you can become a single mother. Haven't you seen all the tv shows and magazines? Being a single mother is awesome, just don't question the mindless hedonism and consumerism tho XD

>>3066130
>They started a war with Mexico to expand potential slave territories and passed a law forcing northern states to treat escaping blacks as property, ignoring their own state law. That isn't getting into the Kansas-Nebraska act and various supreme court decisions pushed through by southern justices

Again,all of which was used to maintain a balance of power in the US to prevent conflict. Don't forget about that.

>>3064959
>the solution to poverty is public transit

Liberalism has rotted your brain

>>3066149

He says, while defending a rebellion that was made up of cunts that literally owned slaves

>>3066176
>Something which dramatically improves the economic potential of an an individual and an economy and puts thousands of people to work building and maintaining it

The only ones with brainrot here are the corporate bootlickers brainwashed into hating their own countrymen

>>3066179
Who were probably going to free their slaves eventually considering

1 everyone else was
2 it was becoming far cheaper to import labor than to own slaves around that point
3 lower class people already resented the practice somewhat because slavery drove down wages significantly

>>3064170
>in different movements around the globe
>this is what Americans believe

File: CFB-berlin-wall-1988_400[1].jpg (228KB, 400x311px) Image search: [Google]

228KB, 400x311px

>>3066188
what did Jebediah Kraut mean by this?

>>3066196
Yanks BTFO

>>3066130
>They started a war with Mexico
>They

so we're going to pretend that northern democrats didn't exist.

>passed a law forcing northern states to treat escaping blacks as property

so making them follow the constitution they all signed? how outrageous.

>Article IV, Section 2, Clause 3
>No person held to service or labour in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labour, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labour may be due.

Have Americans always argued about the Civil War this much or is it just a cover for more modern disagreements?

>>3066210
It's a proxy for modern regional differences as well as political differences. I guess it's become more heated in the past few years become of liberal activists trying to take down confederate statues in southern states.

That said, I remember the 90's when the confederate flag was not controversial at all so maybe it's another symptom of the growing culture war.

>>3066223
>I guess it's become more heated in the past few years become of liberal activists trying to take down confederate statues in southern states.
No, it grew more heated when a lost cause nut-job walked into a church full of little old ladies and shared his "heritage" with them

>>3066223
>>3066251
Let's get real, it's always been a touchy subject. Not this touchy, but arguing about it is nothing new.

People have been trying to call it the "War of Northern Aggression" since like 1955.

File: Yankees (indirectly) killed her.png (749KB, 687x1117px) Image search: [Google]

749KB, 687x1117px

>>3064138

t. Unionist who gets off to the thought of George Custer raping Native women.

>>3064507

It's because the North has so much blood on it's hand from its never-ending wars of aggression they have to deflect their own guilt onto someone else in order to sleep at night.

Hell, Northerners pretty much help create the Nazis with first their meddling in the First World War, the Carnegie Institute's filling peoples' heads full of that nonsense known as Eugenics, and then Henry Ford's spouting anti-semitic nonsense to the point where Hitler gave him a special medal for it. Not that the Yankee-run media will tell you any of this.

File: confed.png (17KB, 370x333px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 370x333px

>>3066251
>muh victimhood!

remember the black nationalist who massacred the 9 white cops during a parade in dallas like a year ago? no reaction. Who cares, liberals will take any opportunity to virtue signal about the one time some white faggot spergs out. I lived in SC and people were over it within a week, more old black ladies get murdered weekly by black gangbangers yet they'll still whine about this shit years after. Can't wait for the CNN special, netflix documentary and oscar bait movie.

thankfully, even after the crocodile tears media blitz most americans don't care about the flag nor do they think it's racist according to every poll taken on the issue.

>>3066275
>remember the black nationalist who massacred the 9 white cops during a parade in dallas like a year ago? no reaction

That was pretty big though.

>>3066266
>War of Northern Aggression

you know that's tongue in cheek right? Southerners actually will call it the War between the States if they're sympathetic to the confederacy. Most others don't care or just see it as a regional flag.

>>3066275
>m-muh cited graph!

Why is it that cuckfederate apologists are so quick to bash negros but strangely defensive of the guys who put them there?

>>3065210
>slavery is racism
Retard. Racial tensions and de facto segregation in the south are lower than the north.
How many race riots have their been in the south vs elsewhere in country recently?

File: article-shooter-0708[1].jpg (84KB, 750x943px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 750x943px

>>3066283
did newspapers and media outlets demand a national conversation on the proliferation of black nationalism within our society? No, we all said "boohoo poor cops" and moved on like we should've. One person's act doesn't speak for an entire population.

>>3066287
great non answer. arguments can be tough.

>>3066157
>Teen pregnancy isn't in itself bad,

It's is bad. It pretty much fucks educational attainment for most teen girls and is trashy as hell.

>>3066289
>Retard. Racial tensions and de facto segregation in the south are lower than the north.
Yeah, because it was forcefully desegregated by the federal government.

>How many race riots have their been in the south vs elsewhere in country recently?
How many densely populated economic powerhouse megacities does it have?

>>3066135
>the south never had as many blacks as brazil and contrary to the memes they weren't as far behind industrially as a lot of people think. They were able to field and supply a massive army capable of fighting the federal forces in pitched battles for 4 odd years.

43% the lower south and 23% upper south. That's a lot

>>3066287
the Atlantic slave trade ended before any of the confederates were even born dumbass.

>>3066284
Maybe for you. Not for everybody even today, and that's not how it started - it was perfectly serious back then. It's no coincidence that people started calling it that just as the Civil Rights Movement was taking off.

People have always used it as a proxy for contemporary social issues. (well, if "always" = the entire 20th century, I guess)

>>3066293
It's a non answer because you went off on an off-topic rant
>b-but what about this badly behaving negro--
Doesn't change the fact that Dylann Roof committed an act of good old fashioned southern-style terrorism, which reignited the debate over the Confederate flag. These are different from regular acts of crime because they are intended to send a message to civilians, not people in blighted neighborhoods lashing out against the police officers who marginalize them

also,
https://info.publicintelligence.net/CTC-ViolentFarRight.pd
Sorry, it's real, no matter how much you want to deny it

>>3066317
Irrelevant. By then they were breeding them at an exponentially increasingly rate domestically and flooding them into plantations all over the south

>>3065835
Those stature were built by an organization with the explicit purpose if engaging in revisionism to put it lightly.

>>3066335
>These are different from regular acts of crime because they are intended to send a message to civilians, not people in blighted neighborhoods lashing out against the police officers who marginalize them

are you really implying that the dallas shooting wasn't a political message? The perp was a middle class suburbian kid.


>which reignited the debate over the Confederate flag.

maybe it was the first time you noticed it, but that shit blows up every 5 years or so. The same debate happened back in 2000 when the flag was originally on the state capitol dome. and later in 2004 when Howard Dean said something positive about people who fly the flag and had the democratic left jump him. Meanwhile the statues have always been attacked or moved around since the 90s.

>>3064366
>No one has to deal with the black creature on such an intimate basis as the southern man
Except me. I married black. I live in a house full of black in-laws. I joined a black heavy profession to work with mostly black clients. Your typical white southerner, living with the barriers of segregation, very slow to erode in your region, have not had to deal with the black "creature" on such an intimate basis as me.

I say that to say, fuck your unjustifiable bullshit. This "You don't know niggers like I do" attitude is pure facade, and I will call it out every fucking time I see it.

File: vote freedom.jpg (12KB, 266x190px) Image search: [Google]

12KB, 266x190px

>>3066112

Southern Victory takes the WW2 parallels way too far Tbh.

If anything, Turtledove should've paralleled the Troubles in Northern Ireland or the Indo-Pakistani conflict, where the CSA and USA are both plagued with low-level violence in the border states (i.e. Kentuckians who want back into the Union and Ohioians who want to join the Confederacy). Maybe ended it with the two nations starting to mend relations because of their allying together in the World Wars.

Also, Southern Victory's narrative pretty much completely falls apart post-WW1. It makes no sense how Germany, the CSA, USA, and UK could develop atomic bombs independent of each other at the same time. Or how the Freedom Party could realistic kill off 40% of their country's population (that's about as nonsensical as Mexico trying to exterminate its entire Amerindian population).

cont.

>>3066338
The black population grew consistently with the white population since revolutionary times. If the population "exponentially increased" it's because the entire nation went through a economic boom and population increase. The whole breeding thing is a bizarre narrative intended to freak out pious abolitionists. In reality slaves mostly chose their mates on their own.

And no it's not irrelevant because you're attempt of a comeback wasn't even accurate. It wasn't the confederates fault that black people were "there".

>>3066359
>black heavy profession

airport security?

>>3066354
>are you really implying that the dallas shooting wasn't a political message? The perp was a middle class suburbian kid.
I didn't say that. I said that it wasn't an act of terrorism, whose primary purpose is to sow fear and terror among the civilian populations.

>maybe it was the first time you noticed it, but that shit blows up every 5 years or so
no shit, but it was that moment when the conversation took on its current urgency

>>3066112
>>3066361
Yes, honestly any narrative that has hostilities lasting more than a generation or so is unrealistic. I haven't read Turtledove's series so this is not a specific criticism of him.

Once slavery died in the south, and obviously hat would've happened pretty quickly, you're left with two nations that share the same language, have nearly identical political systems, and have strong cultural and historical ties - a lot of families that ended up on both sides, even. And while the south wasn't a complete economic mess, it would have made for a much less populous, and significantly less industrialized, neighbor; the idea of it posing any kind of long-term threat to the north is ridiculous.

Honestly the two nations would have probably ended up allies pretty quickly. They wouldn't have remained enemies any more than the US and the UK did - probably would have mended their rift sooner, in fact.

File: enraged patton.jpg (35KB, 960x540px) Image search: [Google]

35KB, 960x540px

>>3066361

Worse yet, Turtledove ditched the budding Mormon conflict which was actually interesting. And if he absolutely had to go with a Holocaust parallel, the Mormons would have made the best placeholder for the Jews. Think about it, the Mormons are a small well-educated religious sect that are hated with extreme vitriol by Americans and treated with neglect by Confederates. It would've made the perfect cocktail for a genocide.

Mormons being expelled from Utah and dispersed across to urban centers across the continent. President McSweeney singling them as being responsible for everything wrong with the country. Mormons in chains, ghettoized, stripped of their rights. The Confederacy, while not as overtly anti-Mormon being largely indifferent to their plight (i.e. turning back Mormon refugees at St. Louis, Missouri in parallel to the SS St. Louis incident). The Second World War starts, and the persecution of Mormons rapidly escalates into a campaign of extermination. Entire neighborhoods of Mormon being forced onto trains bound for death camps built deep in the American interior (if Turtledove really wanted to draw a disturbing parallel, making the sites of Japanese interment camps like Terminal Island and Topaz into TL-191's equivalent of Westerbork and Auschwitz would've been a good one). The Confederacy finally gaining the upper hand and advancing into the American West, only to discover the horrors of the "solution" to the Mormon problem in the form of the camps. Maybe Generals Eisenhower and Patton looking on a piles of emaciated bodies and coming to the realization that their country had utterly failed to heed warnings that something terrible was happening and now millions were dead because of it.

>>3066370
Social work

>>3066368
>The whole breeding thing is a bizarre narrative intended to freak out pious abolitionists
That's literally what chattel slavery means; you own negros in the same legal sense that you own cows. Of course the cows don't need help reproducing, that doesn't change the fact that you're growing their numbers for profit.

>In reality slaves mostly chose their mates on their own.
This is whitewashing of slavery at its most brazen. White owners broke apart families as readily as it suited their financial interests.

>And no it's not irrelevant because you're attempt of a comeback wasn't even accurate. It wasn't the confederates fault that black people were "there".
And yet, a vastly larger proportion of the southern population is black. If this was a consistent "problem" throughout the country, we'd see comparable rates of them in the north, which we don't.

File: 1492796319240.webm (2MB, 480x600px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 480x600px

>>3066359
>have not had to deal with the black "creature" on such an intimate basis as me.

young black bitties are everywhere down here, our dicks are bound to fall in one of them eventually. No one gives a fuck if you've fucked one, you're not anymore enlighted about race than anybody else. Holy fuck i can just imagine the massive social justice hero you are irl. I bet you tell everybody about how your wife is black and wear it like a badge of honor for being such a compassionate white man. hahaha

please, are your children old enough where you had to give them "the talk". you know, the one that the media tells me that all black parents are supposed to give them about the police, how did that go. Haha enjoy being some "bitch ass whiteboi" that all your kid's black friends will shit on them for. oh god you made my night.

>>3066398
Not that guy, but goddamn I have never seen anybody project this hard in my life.

>>3066405
what am I projecting? that I secretly want to raise mulatto kids in some social justice fantasy?

>>3066175
A balance of power that was desired in part to protect the status of slavery, which as I said to many southerners was a cause synonymous with the balance of power.

>>3066202
>so we're going to pretend that northern democrats didn't exist.

No, but it WAS one of the largest factors going into the war.

>so making them follow the constitution they all signed? how outrageous.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prigg_v._Pennsylvania

There was already a fugitive slave law in place. Southerners felt it wasn't strong enough so they passed a new one that striped accused black runaways of basic legal protections

>>3067267
>No, but it WAS one of the largest factors going into the war.

It really wasn't. Manifest Destiny was the view of the day, especially among Democrats north and south. If they had mainly cared about slavery than Polk and southern Democrats wouldn't have pushed for the purchase of the Oregon territory. If anything Polk wanted to ignore the issue of slavery.

>There was already a fugitive slave law in place.

Your own link says that the laws passed by the founding fathers were weakened by a northern majority court. So the south had to compromise in order to get the law restrengthened to it's original intent. It was especially a point of contention for South Carolina considering when they passed a state law saying they weren't going to force state officials to collect harsher tariffs they were threatened with federal invasion.

>>3065856
Offering selective individual based freedom to slaves who joined with the British is entirely different from freeing all slaves anon.

>>3067267
>in part

Exactly, but not fully. Like we discussed before with the Jeffersonians vs Federalist mentality still present up until the civil (that eventually lead to a Federalist victory and destruction of the Jeffersonian based South) it was far more complicated that just the maintaining of slavery. Slavery was on the fast track of being slowly replaced all around the world due to technological innovation and booming populations of cheap labor as a result.

The South vying for political power in order to maintain the slave states was in defiance of the north and whose purpose was to prevent the North from using machiavellian methods to further denigrate the South. So when people say "the civil war was fought over slavery" they are missing the point entirely in favor of over simplification of long standing issues between the north and south.

>>3066359
>Creating a new and permentba racial caste of people just to virtue signal against people who believe in biological determinism and race naturalism
>Because we live in a post racial Utopia , there will never be any consequences to the creation of an infinite amount of new and rootless folk who have no traditions beyond the consumer culture they are born in
>But that's fine because fuck racist pricks, that's why

One day when you're older you're going to realize how much of an idiot you are.

>>3067581
>was on the fast track of being slowly replaced

Oxymoron, lol leave out the slowly. By the 1860's many western countries had already abolished the practice of slavery. The industrialization of the South would happen slower than in most places due to the reliance on slavery , but it was inevitable either way. All the north had to do was wait and calm down the hardcore abolitionist preachers, but of course all men desire power so that just wasnt enough.

>>3067602
Fuck off to /pol/. There's no echo chamber to support your mindless resentment here.

>>3067329
The Law was weakened on the grounds of states rights.

What south Carolina did was say they could completely nullify an unconstitutional law by themselves and they threatened to succeed over the issue. a southern democratic president then put a stop to them.

>>3067581
You make it sound like the slave issue was just another way for the north to weaken the south politically. Which in fairness was what a lot of southerners believed, is a rather big oversimplification of northern intentions, and the intentions of the abolitionist movement.

> So when people say "the civil war was fought over slavery" they are missing the point entirely in favor of over simplification of long standing issues between the north and south.

No serious scholar denies these long standing issues, but as I said many of those issues were tied into slavery and the actual breaking point was over federal policy concerning the admittance of slave states.

>Slavery was on the fast track of being slowly replaced all around the world due to technological innovation and booming populations of cheap labor as a result.

Slavery was on its way out, and southern writings of the time indicate they were not at all happy about that. southern writers took pains to portray slavery as a necessary and moral institution.

>>3066170
>teaching kids to wear condoms is degeneracy
>teenagers getting pregnant is also degeneracy

Which is it friendo because keeping teens from fucking is like asking the sun to stop shining

>>3067734
>You make it sound like the slave issue was just another way for the north to weaken the south politically.

It largely was, the North had no seeming intention of taking some of the black population off the hands of the Southerners and you had hardcore John Brown types of abolitionists who called from retributive justice against the South. Brown's "martydom" for his cause did not improve that situation either. This also brings up an issue I have when people say the South was unjustified at attacking Ft Sumter , at the time continuous conflict in Congress and Kansas has almost completely disintegrated trusts between the North and South, so the re arming of the Ft with fresh troops and ammo was an obvious provocation of war, and the North planned to have a war indefinitely.

>Writers in the South called it an necessary evil

Yes, but not all of them. It was mostly the elite plantation owners and a few older priests who defended the practice of slavery, it was much more of a generational issue than I think people realize. Had we waited for the next generation to grow up and for industrialization to creep into the South, the South probably would've given up slavery around the same time Brazil did in the 1880's.

>The conflict was still mostly over bickering over slavery

Well my point has been that conflict over slavery was a primary modus operandi by which the north and south fought over greater sectional issues beyond that one topic, as I've already discussed.

>>3067602
He married in to a black family, and your response is to tell him that you hope he dies in agony. He is a career person in a predominantly black profession, and you're telling him he doesn't deserve to live.

Jesus fuck, /pol/. Get out and stay out.

>>3064126
The war was not about slavery but about states rights
Then Lincoln finds slavery half way through due to the radicals within the Republican Party despite wide spread neutrality on the issue. Given time slavery would have gone away with due to how unprofitable it became, the sharecropping that replaced it was far more profitable as you didn't need to buy food or care for slaves just leave some crop at the end of harvest

>>3067826
>teenagers getting pregnant is also degeneracy

Who said that? I personally believe women ought to get married young , it's teenage pregnancy out of wedlock which is the issue. It's the party "culture" I have an issue with. This reinforcement of carpe diem among the youth is a purely destructive force.

>>3066359
And are they all ghetto dwellers that worship weed booty and guns, or the descendants of the foreman that whipped other slaves into submission

>>3067840
For many in the north slavery was a moral issue, and even if they accepted that the south had a legal right to it they perosnally wanted no part in helping or enabling the system.

Aside from that the north saw southern moves to further slave territories as sectarian.

>Writers in the South called it an necessary evil

Some even called it moral, and while it probably would have died out on its own, you can't deny that many in the south at the time were terrified at the idea of emancipation even as a gradual thing

>
Well my point has been that conflict over slavery was a primary modus operandi by which the north and south fought over greater sectional issues beyond that one topic, as I've already discussed.

I dont recall you making that exact point, but lets pursue it. I see the larger issues as being at the very least exacerbated to the breaking point by slavery. It was at the very least on the minds of the state congresses that voted for succession, they wrote as much. And almost all the larger issues we discussed, save for perhaps tariffs were in some way related to the regulation of slavery.

So to me saying the civil war was fought over slavery is a simplification but not an invalid one, since the civil war as we know it simply would not have happened without it.

>>3067899
>For many in the north slavery was a moral issue, and even if they accepted that the south had a legal right to it they perosnally wanted no part in helping or enabling the system.
>Aside from that the north saw southern moves to further slave territories as sectarian.

Well had they not wanted to participate in the practice of slavery or enabling it's continuation for a few more decades ,they could've just supported the secession and been done with it, but the North didn't want to deal with an economic rival, especially during s time when the west was beginning to open up and be settled. On top of that, from both sides you had fiery Christian evangelicals calling for either the freeing if the slaves or the freeing if South.

>Some even called it moral, and while it probably would have died out on its own, you can't deny that many in the south at the time were terrified at the idea of emancipation even as a gradual thing

Yes, they were afraid of integration and miscegenation as leading to detriments on their society, on top of that they were afraid of the slaves being radicalized by republicans to upset southern representation in Congress.

> I see the larger issues as being at the very least exacerbated to the breaking point by slavery. It was at the very least on the minds of the state congresses that voted for succession, they wrote as much.

So to me saying the civil war was fought over slavery is a simplification but not an invalid one, since the civil war as we know it simply would not have happened without it.

It is somewhat naive to say that the civil war's main instigator was slavery when you had the corwin amendment that was even supported by Lincoln.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corwin_Amendment

Again , the much greater point of the conflict over slavery was secession over the intellectual legacy left from Jeffersonians vs Federalists. States rights and sectional issues (including slavery)

the war it self was about the land owning elites trying to maintain their power. slavery was a core aspect of it for the elites. since it gave the southern elites inflated political power and economic power. black slaves and freemen also kept the poor whites off the bottom of the social ladder. so racism was used to keep the poor whites against the blacks.

though for 90% of the confederates. It was simply about removing foreign invaders from their state.

>>3068088
>>3068088

woops

File: pickett_gb.png (88KB, 207x239px) Image search: [Google]

88KB, 207x239px

>>3065972

>that filename

>>3068011
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corwin_Amendment

But again, it wasn't so much about abolishing slavery, which the republicans did not propose, as restricting it in new states which the south feared would eventually lead to the abolishment of slavery and the weakening of the southern voting block.

I totally reject the idea that the south in this case represents the Jeffersonian ideal. they abused federal power whenever they could.
At best they were acting in accordance with realpolitik, but as I said to many of the upper class who controlled southern politics the perpetuation of slavery was seen as very much a practical interest. So there was no real difference between protecting slavery and southern interests in their minds.

File: frontpage_big[1].jpg (43KB, 354x400px) Image search: [Google]

43KB, 354x400px

>>3066398
What I'm saying is I interact with blacks on a daily basis every single fucking day. If racial hatred was born of familiarity, when is it supposed to hit me? And no. Kid's two, a girl, and light as fuck.

I will say this for you though. >>3065263
You are completely correct here. A lot of self-righteous yankees and west coasters act as if Dixie has some kind of monopoly on racism. MLK himself said the most virulent racism he ever encountered was in Chicago. The most oppressive police forces in the country today are the NYPD and Chicago PD. The most segregated major city is Omaha. In the past, the KKK stretched from Washington to Maine and every state in between. The state with the highest percentage of Klan membership was Indiana where in the 1920s you could not get elected to state or local office without a Klan endorsement. You guys get piled on by people in need of some introspection themselves.

>>3067641
Oh, my poor mulatto kid. Whatever will become of her? She might end up president.
>just to virtue signal
Of all the possible motivations for marrying my wife, so many don't seem to consider the simplest: I fell in love.

>>3067855
Solidly blue collar folk. Father-in-law is ex Piru, but found a trade when he was young. Can't say I find anything wrong with weed, booty, or guns though. All three are legal, and dare I say healthy, interests.

>>3064101
>is it about hate or heritage?
Depends entirely on who you ask.

>>3068485
>Depends entirely on who you ask.
Ask any professional historian, even a southern one. There's no equivalence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcy7qV-BGF4

>>3068352
>Realpolitick

Which it was. It was completely machiavellian and aimed towards spiting the north and keeping a balance of power. The Confederacy idealized Jeffersonians completely , especially Jefferson's take on voluntary action and small government values. Of course small government values were the ideal, pragmatically the South wouldn't exist if it didn't abuse the state power being used to abuse it.

>>3068352
>upper class who controlled southern politics the perpetuation of slavery was seen as very much a practical interest

Which was also a generational conflict that would've ended with abolition of slavery, and like I said before the reason they were afraid of slavery ending had to do almost completely with the North.

>>3068366
>Of all the possible motivations for marrying my wife, so many don't seem to consider the simplest: I fell in love.

But you felt that love was justified because of your socialized tendency to virtue signal, otherwise you would see that love as being immoral and irresponsible.

>Why did you screw that child?
>I was in love!

Pleasure derived from an act does not make said act moral inherently.

>>3065732
Well, since the south was created by an influx of various cultures, I suppose that means the South only ever had astroturf culture.

>>3067845
Yes, states rights... to own slaves.

>>3065535
Sumter was federal land

>>3066398
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>3069340
Which is just because niggers are pretty much farm animals

>>3069141
>y-you weren't REALLY in love you were just pretending!

>>3064138
Butthurt yanks want us to be neutered like Germanic globalist freaks

It ain't happening. We control congress bitches.

If it's not a hate symbol then how come the KKK and white supremacist groups fly them at their rallies?

File: 300px-General_Lee.jpg (12KB, 300x169px) Image search: [Google]

12KB, 300x169px

>>3064366
You haven't been in the south long then, yankee. It is even simpler than you make it. We love America, the land/country, not the government. It's hard for others to understand since to others they are 1 and the same, down here we were far fucking removed from the government but enjoying the apple pie, hot dogs, and fire works. The confederate flag to us is when we stuck it to the big city business/government so we could keep living truly free. The south was in essence the American colonies of America. The black thing didn't start till Lincoln.

>>3066188
>the cross flag
>not a symbol of rebellion

File: file.png (84KB, 300x221px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 300x221px

>>3065210
>why does the sunbelt have so many slave plantations?
>?
>???
This is your real racist, this right here.