>Let them eat cake What did she mean by this?

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I would eat her cake if you know what I mean.

It was a joke

>>3036206
I was going to say enjoy that barely-washed 18th century kitty but Marie Antoinette was actually obsessive about bathing and bathed every day in water perfumed with lemons and flowers, so you're good

Us gamers, huh? Us gamers.

>>3036200
Nothing since she didnt actually say it

>>3036208
It was just a prank.

>>3036228
>implying you wouldn't eat her unwashed asshole

>>3036418
Br-bro...?

>>3036200
The French word for cake has more than one meaning. One is what we mean in English, and the other is a by-product of bread making at the time. Breadmakers either threw it away or left it outside their shops for the poor as it was of such low quality it had no market value.

She didn;t say it. It actually came from china where the statement was "the peasants are out of rice" and the emperor said "then let them eat meat". It was then twisted and then used as propaganda. The idea is that she was out of touch. If the ppl don't have bread they can't have cake which is a more expensive type of bread. It showed she was out of touch and unfit to rule

The phrase "Let them eat cake" or "Let them eat brioche", came from a book written when she was a child, I believe written by Rousseau (I may be wrong on who wrote the book).
This quote compared her to an aristocratic princess of the story, who was so ignorant of the struggle of the poor that she assumed the starving masses could eat sweets and such.
This comparison, mixed with the fact that she had a faux farm built in Versailles to "play peasant", proved to become staples in her tarnished pile of a reputation, a pile that would later collapse in the Diamond Necklace Affair.
>Huge Ouiaboo

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>>3036527
Hello brother.
Thanks for the contribution.

>>3036574
Where is the Monarchist ball?
Louis XI and XIV at least deserve love.

>>3036606
It's at the bottom of the guillotine.

>>3036527
>>3036502
>>3036527
>>3036502
So I had to do a paper on this, here's some 2 am thoughts

To get a big more technical: she wasn't actually accused of saying "let them eat cake!" in her lifetime. The phrase played no part in the French Revolution. This association didn't come along until the mid 19th century and even then, it didn't really stick very well until the 1930s when for various reasons it exploded in popularity and has been a mainstay in Marie Antoinette popular culture ever since.

The French phrase ("Qu'ils mangent de la brioche") was written by Rousseau for his Confessions, written in 1766/published in the 1780s. However, it wasn't a phrase he came up with on his own: it was his own spin on a common folklore/myth, which is today classified in the Aarne–Thompson Tale Type Index as “[King/queen/ruler/wealthy person] ignorant of condition of subjects; lifestyle of the poor and that of the rich contrasted; and apathy or indifference to the plight of others.” Other versions include one from 1569 where a noble woman says "Why do the people complain and suffer hunger? There are rolls, bread, butter and [sweet bread] for sale in the market; with that, they could quiet their hunger." Another version dated to ancient China is a magistrate who, being told that the poor are starving because they cannot afford to eat [common staple rice dish at the time], asks why they don't just eat plain rice instead.

1/2

>>3036685
2/2

Another version was mentioned by Marie Antoinette's brother-in-law in his memoirs, written in 1791-1799 but published in 1824. He recounted how he had been taught that Louis XIV's wife, "hearing one day the poor people pitied for being in want of bread, replied 'But, dear me, why do they not eat pie-crust?'" He doesn't mention "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche" or Marie Antoinette at all in connection to this.

Yet another was recounted in an 1866 book written by a comtesse whose mother, having been a lady in waiting to a daughter of Louis XV, recounted a story her mother told her where the king's daughter, during a famine, said in despair: "But why cannot the poor put up with pie crust?" (She loathed pie crust.) As with Louis XVIII, no mention of Marie Antoinette.

>mixed with the fact that she had a faux farm built in Versailles to "play peasant",

The contemporary criticism against her hamlet wasn't related to playing peasant, which she didn't do except when performing in operas. It was related to the perceived cost of the hamlet [it was expensive, like all court buildings, but she was accused of basically bankrupting the country to build it] and the fact that it was a private estate, which she preferred over the public Versailles.

Members of the public couldn't go there and see her like they could at the palace, where she was by etiquette required to be on "public view" for a good portion of the day. Members of the court were also not allowed to see her on her private estate unless she invited them, and she preferred to invite people she liked rather than people who were by etiquette entitled to be around her.

So rumors began building up about what was really in the hamlet, and what she was doing there. She was accused of having rooms where the walls were lined with diamonds and precious jewels, she was accused of having orgies, plotting with Austrians, more orgies, plots against France in the summer of 1789, and so on.

>>3036200
People were hungry and she decided to give her cakes to them. Little did she know the french hated cakes

>>3036696
but did she have orgies?

this is very important

>>3036729
Nope. She was rather prudish, all things considered.

Although I do like how she described having full sex for the first time (it took her and her husband about 7 years to properly consummate; they had dabbled but even after they finally made it to penetration, Louis never came inside her because they had no idea what the hell they were doing):

>I am in the most essential happiness of my entire life. It has already been more than eight days since my marriage was perfectly consummated; the proof has been repeated and yesterday even more completely than the first time.

>>3036685
>>3036696
Post your paper.

>>3036793
It's not really worth posting. I can find some of the research/articles re: Let them eat cake that I used to write it tomorrow if the thread is still up, they're more worthwhile to read than my paper.

>>3036768
What an adorable creature

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On the topic of Marie, did you know she was friends with Georgiana Cavendish, the duchess of Devonshire? Two fashion icons being friends! I get excited from this for some reason.

On the topic of Versailles, I still sour over pic related
>tfw no Porcelaine Trianon ;-;

>>3036827
She could be cute

When she was still dauphine (so 14-17) she once fell off her donkey while riding. She had a habit of poking fun of Versailles strict etiquette which governed every little thing you did. She was laughing on the ground afterward and refused to be helped up, instead saying "leave me on the ground, we must wait for [her 1st lady of honor], she will show us the proper way to pick up a dauphine who has tumbled from her donkey!"

>"SHE DIDNT SAY THAT"
Cool it with your swelling autism you stupid underage dipshits

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>>3036846
(Since this so obscure, I'll expand)
Louis XIV had a small palace built on Versailles grounds for Madame De Montespan. This building was known as a Trianon, and was THE building to making them popular among nobility. It was made in honor of Chinese porcelain trade, and what could not be made of porcelain was painted to look as such. Building it was apparently easier than anticipated, as it was started early winter and it was completed the following spring. Many commented that due to this, it was like it had grown like a flower from the earth. By all accounts, the place was heavenly and beautiful, and put all that saw it in awe. Sadly, the Trianon was not to remain. Louis grew tired of it as it was no longer serving as a hideaway from court as he intended, and Madame de Maintenon, his mistress turned wife, felt the place was too cold and bulky. He ordered it demolished.

Thus,
>tfw no porcelains Trianon ;-;

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>>3036846
>Porcelaine Trianon

God damn it Madame de Maintenon!

I'm sad that nothing remains of the Chinese pavilion and merry-go-round that Marie Antoinette had built. It wasn't an architectural marvel or anything, but still. At least most of the hamlet is still around and being restored. Thanks, Dior.

>>3036884

Fucking mistresses and peasants destroying our shit!

And here we are worrying about Muslims...

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>>3036846
>>3036876
did someone say TRIANON?

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>>3036846
>>3036884
>>3036898
The greatest loss IMO is the loss of the historic gardens from the storm of 1999. 10,000+ trees, many of which dated back to Louis XVI's era, gone. Looking at photos from pre-1999 to now is sometimes startling, especially the hameau de la Reine and the gardens as a whole. Although they replanted some trees, they are nowhere near as tall or lush, giving the entire garden a completely different feel and appearance.

>>3036924
That is a pitiful site....

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>>3036924
>hameau de la reine

if I could live there I would. It's like an enchanted garden. And tourists don't care for it because it's not flashy so it's never particularly crowded.

>>3036228
it wasn't every day, it was once a month

>>3036924
it can't be helped

>>3036696

I miss the times when fabulously wealthy aristocrats could just let the poor starve and crack jokes about it. French revolution was the worst thing that even happened to Europe

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>>3036977
>it wasn't every day, it was once a month

Marie Antoinette took a bath every day, or almost every day depending on what palace they were at and her whims, as part of her morning routine. It was unusual in France and it was called a "German" custom to take so many baths. Normally you wouldn't take a bath (meaning an immersion bath where you get in a big tub) so often, perhaps every 2 weeks or once a month, and would instead sponge bathe (wiping yourself with a cloth) every day.

>>3036995
what makes you say that?

>>3036995
None of the people quoted actually said those things. They're all part of a social folklore trend, where wealthy people are quoted as saying something ignorant/callous about the poor needing food due to their inability or unwillingness to understand the problem.

>>3037002

Because it was basically the end of the cultural revolution that began in the Renaissance. Antiquity and master morality was regaining the upper hand at last over christendom and its slave morality poison.Then boom: the reformation, French revolution, and everything went straight to the devil again. Napoleon was the dying gasp of antiquity. After his defeat, Judea had triumphed over Rome for good.

>>3037031
>Judea had triumphed over Rome for good.
I don't follow

>>3037033

Christianity = Judea (ressentiment, Good and Evil, the slave revolt in morals)

Antiquity = Rome (sentiment, Good and Bad, the world order of masters)

>>3037001
>tfw will never bath this elaborately

>The Queen bathed in a large gown of English flannel buttoned down to the bottom; its sleeves throughout, as well as the collar, were lined with linen. When she came out of the bath the first woman held up a cloth to conceal her entirely from the sight of her women, and then threw it over her shoulders. The bathers wrapped her in it and dried her completely. She then put on a long and wide open chemise, entirely trimmed with lace, and afterwards a white taffety bed-gown. The wardrobe woman warmed the bed; the slippers were of dimity, trimmed with lace. Thus dressed, the Queen went to bed again, and the bathers and servants of the chamber took away the bathing apparatus. The Queen, replaced in bed, took a book or her tapestry work

>>3037048
so you consider good morals to be laughing as peasants starve?

>>3037057
you could do all this and more if you wanted to, you don't have to be one of the richest people in the country either

what a time to be alive, eh?

>>3037068
Where am I going to get ladies in waiting to act as my attendants? And servants to do the servanty things This, I do not have

>>3037064
Who was laughing as the peasants starved?

>>3036200
Dirty g*rman woman got what she deserved for mistreatment of superior frenchies.

>>3037073
>I miss the times when fabulously wealthy aristocrats could just let the poor starve and crack jokes about it. French revolution was the worst thing that even happened to Europe

>>3037071
Place job listings for domestic workers, or use a staffing agency. Have you never hired staff for your household before?

>>3037086
Okay but... who... was doing that?

>>3037104
he did, whether his conception of the past is accurate or not that's what he's pining for and thinks that the revolution is bad because it apparently did away with that

>>3036696
>Another version was mentioned by Marie Antoinette's brother-in-law in his memoirs, written in 1791-1799 but published in 1824. He recounted how he had been taught that Louis XIV's wife, "hearing one day the poor people pitied for being in want of bread, replied 'But, dear me, why do they not eat pie-crust?'"
this seems to be the emost reliable source, unless you want to split hairs over whether it was pie crust or cake.

>>3037064

I consider it bad morals that the nobles should throw away all their rights and privileges to go starve with the peasants

>>3037109
What Louis XVIII was recounting was just another version of a similar fable to "Then let them eat pastry," which is part of a social folklore type that dates back thousands of years and can be found all over the world.

>>3036827
She was kind of a bitch too. She was one of the leading ultra-royalist figures and it was her prodding which convinced Louis XVI to try and leave France because she wanted to go back to Austria and come back with an army to kick out all the Revolutionaries and revert France to absolute monarchism.

So she's directly responsible for the fate of herself, her husband and her family.

>>3036200

Austrian whore i hope she suffered a painful death

>>3036846
>>3036859
>this writing style

Hmmmm....

I appreciate the Marie anon for posting all the information. We need more of you.

>>3038085
>She was one of the leading ultra-royalist figures and it was her prodding which convinced Louis XVI to try and leave France because she wanted to go back to Austria and come back with an army to kick out all the Revolutionaries and revert France to absolute monarchism.

Neither she or Louis XVI attempted to leave France. The initial plan was to head for Rheims, but Louis XVI wanted a location with a fortified stronghold so it would be protected, which is why Montmedy was ultimately chosen. One of the reasons that the flight to Montmedy failed is because Louis XVI rejected all routes which would have taken them briefly across the border and then back again.

They never intended for a foreign army to "kick out all revolutionaries" or to revert to absolute monarchism. Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette initially rejected the idea of an armed Congress making statements in their defense, threatened Louis XVI's brothers for raising an emigre army, and Louis even declared that any foreign countries which housed emigre armies needed to disband them or be declared enemies of France. They only accepted the possibility of armed interference when their lives had been threatened for years and when it became clear that control over France would not be regained naturally.

1/2

>>3038528
2/2
Marie Antoinette's intention was Louis XVI's intention, which he laid out in the manifesto he left behind before their flight:

>with what pleasure will he forget all the personal injuries and find himself in your midst again, when a Constitution which he has freely accepted ensures that our holy religion shall be respected, that government shall be established on a stable footing, and through its operation no one shall be troubled in their goods or their condition, that laws shall no longer be infringed with impunity, and finally that liberty shall be established on firm and unshakable foundations.

Louis XVI have no problem with a constitutional monarchy. What he had a problem with was the utter violence, chaos and lawlessness that was prevailing in France.

Now, Louis XVI's brothers--the comte de Provence and comte d'Artois--and his sister, Elisabeth, wanted a return to absolute monarchism. Provence and Artois made no secret of their attempts to raise a foreign+emigre army to invade France. They were even going so far as to release declarations in Louis' name, claiming that he was not acting under his own influence and needed foreign intervention. Louis had to send them a letter after he sanctioned the Constitution:

>... any obstacle I had placed in the way [of signing the Constitution] would have caused the war I was anxious to avoid, and would have prevented the people from judging of the Constitution, because they would have seen nothing but my constant opposition. By adopting their ideas and following them in all good faith they will learn the cause of their troubles; public opinion will change; and since without this change one can hope for nothing but fresh convulsions, I shall bring about a better order of things by my acceptance than by my refusal ... I wished to let you know the motives for my acceptance, so that your conduct should be in accord with mine.

the royal family werent all radically conservative anyway, they were willing to bend to demands, they had compassionate hearts, theyre weakness hurt the country but they were not evil people. Their main problem was bad counsel that they took because they were so weak and indecisive.

They were in a bad place at a bad time, facing a global revolution of liberal ideas and being torn between actually agreeing with them and agreeing with poor counsel from their staff. The revolution needed heads to plant on their pikes, and the royal family was unfortunate enough to follow counsel that lead straight to that.

Everybody knows Louie smashed them in court, they had no case to kill him

>>3038549
Yeah, Louis XVI was incredibly relatively liberal when it came to his beliefs and his willingness to agree with what we would consider "revolutionary" ideals. A significant portion of the early reforms in 1789-1790 were reforms that Louis XVI had tried repeatedly to do himself but he was cockblocked by the noble-led Parlements. He sanctioned and agreed over and over with what the people wanted.

The only reforms he disagreed with were those that diminished respect for the monarchy... which, his instincts were right on this, because the more diminished the monarchy became, the more they were considered ornaments rather than an active part of the government, and the more he clashed with the new government because he wanted a say in how his country was run, etc, we know what happened there.

>>3036574
>Napoléon supporting La Terreur

I'm French and only retards support it.

>>3036633
edgy and cringy af

>>3036574
unironically 4

>>3036768
Are you kidding

I'm starting to picture french nobility as a bunch of clueless autistic kids.

That, or anime MCs

>>3039336
They got married when she was 14 and he was 15, so there were a lot of factors which contributed to their lack of sex.

Louis had been neglected as a child because no one expected him to ever reign, so he was very shy and often kept to himself even after he became the dauphin. He was never properly taught about sex.

Marie Antoinette was physically underdeveloped at 14 (Louis XV described her as still being physically akin to a child when she first arrived) and the only education she got on sex was a letter from her elder sister which described consummation as being painful and horrible.

Louis XVI was extremely shy, and he refused to regularly visit Marie Antoinette's bed chambers until a private passageway was built between them. This is because when he would walk down the halls to go to her at night, people would see him and tease him about the fact that he was going to his wife's bed.

By 1772 they had started attempting consummation, with the ambassador reporting that Louis had told Antoinette that he was waiting until they were both older. This same year Louis told his grandfather that he had "made attempts to consummate his marriage, but was always stopped by painful sensations." He also said that they made progress but "both felt pain and it is still a thorny matter." By July 1773, Marie Antoinette told her mother that she believed the marriage was consummated, though she knew she wasn't pregnant.

The Austrian ambassador to France once compared their situation to that of a previous king, who took months to consummate his marriage due to the "narrowness of the passage."

She finally got pregnant after her brother talked with Louis. Supposedly, Louis told him that he had firm erections and entered but always left without releasing inside. The brother told him that unless he released then she could not get pregnant, they started having proper sex, a few months later she's pregnant. Then regularly pregnant after that.

>>3039522

Very interesting. I assume you are actually an historian, right?

Was being clueless a common occurence amongst englihment era nobility?

>Louis XVI was extremely shy, and he refused to regularly visit Marie Antoinette's bed chambers until a private passageway was built between them. This is because when he would walk down the halls to go to her at night, people would see him and tease him about the fact that he was going to his wife's bed.

oh god it's an anime

VN when

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>>3039546
>I assume you are actually an historian, right?

Nope, no degree, just super invested in this area of history.

>Was being clueless a common occurence amongst englihment era nobility?

Not particularly. Problems with consummation in royalty or nobility were more often simple fertility problems or in some cases the man just not wanting to have sex with his wife.

>VN when

Well, there is Rose of Versailles!

France is a nation of whores and sluts like Marie Antoinette and Jeanne de arc

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>>3039961
t. lindybeige

>>3039522
>Louis XVI was extremely shy, and he refused to regularly visit Marie Antoinette's bed chambers until a private passageway was built between them. This is because when he would walk down the halls to go to her at night, people would see him and tease him about the fact that he was going to his wife's bed.
is he our guy?

>>3040030
He eventually built up the confidence to kiss her in public so probably not

>>3036200
Fuck 'em.

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Is it /his/ approved?

>>3040030
He was really into locks which has to be the nerdiest and most autistic hobby possible. Probably the 18th century equivalent of coding in some obscure programming language or something. So yeah, kinda.

>>3036200
Nothing, because she never actually said it.

>>3040062
S'all right. Not particularly historically accurate but then, it's not meant to be. It's visually fun I guess.

I prefer the 1938 Marie Antoinette film for its lush costumes. Or the movie L'Autrichienne for more attention to historical detail, since almost all the dialogue is from the transcript of her trial.

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She was too pure for this world.

>>3040062
Meh, it's okay.
>>3040148
The main part I disliked about the Dunst Marie Antoinette was the fact that it couldn't decide whether or not it wanted to be a period piece or not.
Throughout most of the film, it's a straight period piece, but every once and a while they'll throw in a random anachronism, like in one scene she's wearing canvas vans, and another some pop music song will play.

I get what it was trying to do, but the fact that it only happens once or twice is bizarre

>>3040194
I seem to remember them using a lot of modern music? It's been a while since I've seen it all the way through, though.

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>>3040194
I think Coppola got too caught up in her idea of having people identify with Antoinette using modern touches. You don't need Chuck Taylors or Laduree macarons to have people identify with a young woman stuck in an awkward marriage and a life filled with too many restrictions and pressure

>>3040262
Yeah, that's what they were trying for, but it was so haphazard it just felt bizarre.
>>3040216
I only remember it once or twice, with the rest being standard ambiance OST stuff.

Anyway, Amadeus is pure, unadulterated Rococo Kino

>>3040268
>I only remember it once or twice, with the rest being standard ambiance OST stuff.

It's about half and half. Half are modern pop/rock songs, other half is classical music/ambiance.

Also man, this made me forget how much I love Opus 36: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzxo0YCxAA0

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>>3040148
>1938 Marie Antoinette

Forever fuck Louis B. Mayer for axing the planned technicolor and replacing Sidney Franklin with W.S. Van Dyke just to shove it to Norma Shearer.

has anyone else looked up the drawings they made about her during or just before the revolution? They're truly bizarre. Riding a giant penis ostrich, sticking dildos into her friends, etc

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>>3040628
here's a nonsexual one

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>>3041076
Some are pretty hot, desu.

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>>3042399
Some less so.

>>3041076
>>3042399
>>3042401
THE FRENCH, EVERYONE

>>3036200
"Stop being poor."

>>3039522
Lmao it sounds like trying to breed galapagos tortoises or some rare type of endangered species that goes in into heat only once every few years

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>>3042401
Here's another one with Louis.

Captioned "Ah you big thief, you are disbursing!" Aka he came too early and stole the sperm she needs to make babies.....

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A bizarre one, dated from the brief period with the royal family + some of their companions were imprisoned in the Temple. It's from a pamphlet that basically describes how Marie Antoinette and the prisoners in the temple were having a bunch of orgies. Instead of what they were really doing which was fearing for the lives of their friends and children, but, hey.

Here is Marie Antoinette shoving a dildo up the princesse de Lamballe, who would be brutally murdered in about 2 weeks after its publication.

>Ah my good friend, ah ah! I can not take anymore, I'm going to come!

(Or literally "I'm going to soul" but you get the idea)

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>>3043110
>Now this one's got a shy little pecka, doesn't he? He wants to go mate with his right pretty sheila but take a look at how the other ones are stampin' their feet when he walks by... they know what he's up to and they won't let him forget it! So he's gotta find a way to get to his mate without the others seein'. Let's see how he does!

>>3037097
You gotta be rich to do that.

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>>3042877
Here's another. The rumor then was that the hero of two worlds, Lafayette, was the lover of the Queen. As is shown here in a really subtle way.

Heard rumors that Louis XVI had a big rooster

>>3036483
>the other is a by-product of bread making at the time. Breadmakers either threw it away or left it outside their shops for the poor as it was of such low quality it had no market value.

Do you have a sauce for that? I've never heard this. Is this the same as the pie crusts mentioned in >>3036696

>>3036200
If I remember it she did'nt actually say it.It was a propoganda spread to hate the monarchy.

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>>3043320
Not that person, but pie crusts in the 18th century were typically not eaten (they were basically just food... holders) and were usually tossed out or mixed with slop for pigs.

Brioche, however, isn't a by-product. Pic related. It was a light delicate bread made with tons of butter. "Brioche" isn't the French word for cake, the quote being translated as "let them eat cake" is a mistranslation that has stuck.

>>3036442
>implying you wouldn't lick her smelly armpits

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>>3042399
nice

>>3036200
Her and most French nobility were degenerate as fuck. Orgies, hedonism and other faggot behaviour. They got what they deserved from based Robespierre.

>>3044670
Marie Antoinette was prude. Bathed in a modesty gown, kicked people out of her dances for telling lewd jokes, had someone read any book that women in her service wanted to read to make sure it was appropriate and then removed it if it was, etc.

>>3044757
And the alleged and confirmed claims of lesbianism?

>>3044776
>alleged and confirmed

What confirmed claims? No, she wasn't a lesbian. .

>>3044792
see >>3044496 >>3042399

>>3044797
Those are from libelles, which were slanderous pamphlets aimed at political and social figures. They're fictional.

>>3043136
>>3043159
>>3042401
>>3042399
I'm 99% sure this was made explicitely to fap to it

t. avid french comic reader

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>>3044809
Political pornography! They're designed primarily to invite negative press with various rumors or accusations, but titillation was certainly a concern.They were usually accompanied by essays or plays.

For instance, this excerpt from a libelle play accuses Marie Antoinette of having sex with one her brothers-in-law, implies that her sons were not fathered by Louis XVI, and implies that she is engaging in tribadism.

>>3044828
>>3044807
>>3044757
>In her book, I Love You Madly – Marie-Antoinette: The Secret Letters, the British historian Evelyn Farr lays bare the queen’s alleged infidelity with the powerful Swedish statesman Axel von Fersen and calls into question the parentage of her daughter, Sophie, who died as an infant, proposing the princess was fathered by the devoted lover.

Explain this.

>>3044947
So, Farr's "evidence" from that book that Sophie was fathered by Fersen is: someone repeated a rumor that the was the father. Farr then claims that questioning the parentage of a royal child is not something you would do lightly, so that proves it must be true. Except it was done all the time, and not just in Versailles or the 18th century. After the birth of her first child, pamphlets questioning the father were literally tossed around Versailles. A Spanish diplomat copied down some satirical poems that were circulating after the birth of the first dauphin. Etc. No serious historian would ever claim that someone repeating a rumor was proof of the child's parentage, because it's just really shitty scholarship.

Other people who were rumored to be the father of Marie Antoinette's children, yet Farr somehow never claims that this should count as concrete evidence that they were the father: both her brothers-in-law, the Austrian ambassador, her confessor, other male friends (de Ligne, etc)

1/2

>>3045214
2/2

It's bedtime so I can get into more detail tomorrow if you want, but to be short, Farr has been obsessed with proving Antoinette had an affair with Fersen for years. Her first book on the subject from 1999 included such hard-hitting evidence as "Fersen was attractive and Louis was fat and ugly! Of course Antoinette would have wanted to be with Fersen!" So I really don't take her books seriously. The latest book includes a claim that there is irrefutable proof that they had sex [compared to being in love but chaste] because Antoinette wrote, in plain sight mind you which means she didn't feel it was necessary to hide, "I love you madly." Now Farr's not just saying this proves they were in love, she's saying this literally proves that they had sex because she claims people ONLY said something like that to someone they had sex with. Never mind that people used the phrase "I love you madly" or "He/she loved him/her madly" in other cases, including with brothers and sisters. Is Farr claiming that these brothers and sisters were fucking?

Marie Antoinette also wrote things like "Nothing but death will make me stop loving you" and "I kiss you hard" to her female friends, because Marie Antoinette wrote like a poetry-loving teenager at boarding school to anyone she considered an actual friend, yet Farr never wants to claim that she was fucking them.

She might have been in romantic love with him, we don't know. But someone claiming they were totally fucking and he fathered her children because "someone said so!" and because she used a dramatic phrase when she used them all the time, eh. Not so compelling.

I have a lot of feelings about Evelyn Farr and her scholarship, sorry.

>>3044947
There was no conceivable way she would've been able to consummate, whether it be in Paris or Versailles.
No matter where she was, someone was always with her. There is no way she would've been left alone for enough time for Fersen to be anything more than a crush. Even in her personal hideaway, the Petit Trianon, there were still many people. Should the Queen have had a sexual relationship with Fersen, we would've had a few testimonies, a few rumors within the court itself. The point being is >>3045215 is right, we have no reliable sources beyond public libel.

>>3045214
>>3045215
>>3045226
Huh... so where did the meme about degenerate French royals come from? It has to have been from some place, aside from libel. Since libel is usually based on some form of fact, but grossly exaggerated or done by someone else and then pinned on another person.

>>3045281
Louis XV, and the fact that the new young royal couple didn't have sex for nearly 8 years. Then even stranger when Louis XVI didn't even have a mistress, as they were expected to be.
So they were mixing the hate of the rich with an innocent couple, or in this case, family. The rest of the court, on the other hand, was known for debauchery and hedonism, something the royals made a point in separating themselves from during and after Louis XV's reign.

And let's not forget the mountains of evidence that Marie and Louis were prudes, as well as blushing innocents.

>>3045295
So in short, Jacobins had the right idea in smashing up the hedonistic nobles, but targeting Louise and Marie Antoinette were very damn wrong moves when instead they could've been allies in setting up a British-style constitutional monarchy.

>>3045304
Well, I wouldn't jump to such radical conclusions. The monarchy would've survived, had it not been for the deficit. And they were a Parliamentary Monarchy, after all.
The Noble class had became ineffective due to the idea of Versailles itself. All of the nobles were living there, in one concentrated area which made the drastic economic difference even more apparent. But I'm not saying they were bad people either. The landed Nobles just didn't want to pay taxes. A lot of the stereotypes were, again, carry-ons from Louis XV.

And nobody wants a constitutional monarchy, its just a republic with a subdued royal family with no ambition.

>>3045320
Practicing hedonism and having gay orgies in direct opposition to the Catholic faith and the Holy See while your people starve is pretty bad imo,especially if you're also being a proto-ancap and going TAXATION IS RAPE.

>>3045281
Republican propaganda, of course, what else? The worst you could say about Louis XVI is that he was an indecisive man, thrown in circumstances that even the most competent king would have a hard time dealing with. As for Marie-Antoinette, she did have flaws, her spending habits, mostly, but the kind of stuff she was accused of is just disgusting. Was she later an agent of the royalist cause? Yeah, of course, but look up the transcripts of her trial, the degenerate minds of the judges cooked up shit like incest charges just to appeal to the sans-culottes who wanted blue blood.

After this, while she was rehabilitated in the public eye for a while after the Restoration, the Third Republic went back to work to tarnish the image of monarchs, creating a black legend to justify the republic. After that, it was leftist or simply pop historians avid for a scandal who propagated these accusations as facts.

>>3045215
No need to be sorry, anon, that's very interesting. That lady seems to be projecting hard, if I were her husband I'd be worried, desu. I found that description of Louis XVI:

"Five foot ten inches in height, heavily built but not yet too fat, with well-shaped legs, a pleasant ruddy countenance and pale blue eyes, of which the benevolent expression was veiled only by short-sightedness, Louis XVI at nineteen was not unpleasing. His voice, harmonious in its normal key, only rose discordantly under the stress of emotion. Unfortunately he walked badly, with the swaying motion peculiar to his family, trudging, instead of sliding smoothly after the fashion that was de rigueur, over the polished floors of Versailles. [...] Simple, honest, kindly, plainly dressed in his unenbroidered coat of brown or grey, he looked in no way regal. [...] Louis himself was delicate in childhood, and only by the age of sixteen had he begun to acquire the robustness and strength of muscle which drove him to find a vent for his energies in hunting, shooting and working at his anvil."

Doesn't sound like such an ugly guy to me, desu, and a guy it would be easy to genuinely fall in love with or at least feel great affection for.

>>3044006
Thanks. I don't speak any French and am at the mercy of translators.

>>3036200
It was let them eat brioche, a very sugary bread
So
>peasants are out of bread
>fine let them have fancy bread
She didn't understand the context of them being too poor to afford bread

>>3045836
>>3045882
See >>3045330 Even if Marie Antoinette wasn't so bad as she was portrayed, there was still her court. And with everyone surrounding her being like that, who's to say she didn't indulge into it sometimes herself? Degeneracy is the worst.

>>3045930
>Even if Marie Antoinette wasn't so bad as she was portrayed, there was still her court. And with everyone surrounding her being like that, who's to say she didn't indulge into it sometimes herself?

Her contemporaries? Letters, memoirs, and other material from that time? In other words, the historical evidence?

Also, you seem to have a misconception about what the French court, and particularly the people Marie Antoinette chose to surround herself with, were actually like. Their vices weren't orgies and wild sex parties... they were staying up late at night gambling, attending balls, and so on.

>>3045882
It wasn't until around 1789 that he got to the point of being the fat king that people assume he was, because he was stressed out as hell and was no longer getting his customary exercise. He was actually pretty strong.. during the birth of their first child, Marie Antoinette fainted and he ran to the boarded up windows and tore the wood off with his bare hands to give her some air.

>a guy it would be easy to genuinely fall in love with or at least feel great affection for.

For sure! It's hard to describe it as "love" in the sense that we understand it today because it was an arranged marriage, but they definitely felt great affection and love for each other. There's a lot of moments from her correspondence and contemporary writing where they hug and kiss in public, moments where they confess their love to each other, talk with each other for hours, show examples of affection... wanting to supper together even when it wasn't the custom, walking arm in arm together in the evening--started a trend at court, talking from afar when Marie Antoinette had to be quarantined for an illness, etc.

It's not to say they never had their bad moments, particularly in the years 1775-1777 which was the heyday of her "stay up until 3-4 in the morning dancing and partying" behavior, but all things considered they had a very loving marriage.

>>3046104
So you're trying to say she actually excluded the more hedonist parts of the court, and I suppose there could be a lot thrown her way also because of the way the Austrian court was thought to behave, compared to their more conservative Prussian and British counterparts.

>>3045281
>Since libel is usually based on some form of fact, but grossly exaggerated or done by someone else and then pinned on another person.

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea. Libelles are political pamphlets in the form of essays, poetry, plays, illustrations or a combination of these elements which were deliberately offensive and inflammatory. They weren't inherently exaggerated facts or facts presented with false identities. There's a handful of libelles which were "based" on real incidents but not in any concrete way. For instance, one time Marie Antoinette stayed up all night (with ladies in waiting, guards, etc) to watch the sunrise. A few days later a libel came out which claimed that she'd orchestrated a giant orgy in the bushes as the sun rose.

>Huh... so where did the meme about degenerate French royals come from?

In regards to Marie Antoinette, the rumors against her started with the court--specifically with her brother-in-law the comte de Provence and his wife. Provence wanted to diminish the popularity of Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI in order to threaten their position at court, and he did so by encouraging the creation of pamphlets that questioned her fidelity, Louis XVI's manliness, the paternity of the children, her loyalty to the French, etc. Rumors and gossip also came from Louis XVI's aunts who mostly retired from Versailles after he took the throne and Marie Antoinette stopped being under their thumb, as well as from courtiers who felt threatened or snubbed by her. These court-created pamphlets were then spread around Paris, where gossip was lifeblood. The Palais Royal in Paris became a hotbed for these types of libelles.

>>3045330
>Practicing hedonism and having gay orgies in direct opposition to the Catholic faith and the Holy See while your people starve is pretty bad imo,

Good thing she didn't do that then.

après nous, le déluge

>>3046132
I feel like you have a misconception of what court life was really like, at least under Louis XVI. People weren't having wild orgies at court, they weren't engaging in drug-fueled sex binges, etc. The younger crowd who sought entertainment and pleasure would basically just ensure they had amusement after amusement. They would attend multiple performances throughout the day--plays, operas, pantomimes, etc--or go to balls which lasted until after midnight or host lavish parties with costumes and fireworks and dancing.

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They accused her of sexually abusing her son at her trial and she refused to answer the charges until a juryman pressed her, at which point she stood up and said

>If I did not reply it was because nature recoils from such an accusation against a mother. I appeal to all mothers who are present here!

The women in the crowd applauded her and they had to take a recess. An anecdote tells of Robespierre scolding the man who orchestrated the scheme, which involved getting her son drunk as hell in prison and having him sign accusations against his mother an aunt, because it turned the crowd in her favor.

>>3046315
There's quite a lot of proof of that happening though, even if not in this particular situation.

>>3046935
>There's quite a lot of proof of that happening though

And some of this quite a lot of proof is?

didn't the royalist forces actually go after fags?

>>3037031
>Because it was basically the end of the cultural revolution that began in the Renaissance.
The early modern era was defined largely by religious strife. It was a step backwards for most Europeans.

>Antiquity and master morality was regaining the upper hand at last over christendom and its slave morality poison.Then boom: the reformation, French revolution, and everything went straight to the devil again.
Somebody's been reading Nietzsche.

> Napoleon was the dying gasp of antiquity
No, the Crisis of the Third Century was the dying gasp of antiquity. Rome ate itself alive long before Christians rose to political prominence. The barbarian hordes who overran the corrupt, decaying Dominate were all Christians

>After his defeat, Judea had triumphed over Rome for good.
What you're crudely attempting to describe are psychological states which manifest themselves in every generation. They don't "go away", they moderate over time as education, healthcare, and modern convenience makes people who aren't maladjusted manlets who want to kill everything that they disagree with

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>>3043136
>>3043159
Some of them are really disturbing and show the lengths to which people were going to slander her. This one depicts her fucking her brother-in-law while the king mourns over the bed of their dead son. Also Marie Antoinette is throwing up some horns. I wonder what the gesture meant in 18th century French context.

>>3047262
Cuckold horns, probably?

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>>3047262
We say of a cuckold that he has horns. In old French, "cornart" means idiot, imbecile, which sounds close to the French word for horns: cornes. So basically it's a play on words, saying that a cuckolded man is an idiot for letting it happen.

So she's giving her husband horns.

>>3040183
Stuff like this shows the true end goal of the nobility. Having a class of people who are more than human in their grace.

>>3046262
Yeah, it was just the nobility.

>>3044670
I want /pol/ to leave

>>3036200
I think she wanted them to eat cake.
I may be wrong though.

>>3043182
>JUST

>>3047037
The numerous documentations? Even if you've proven that a lot about Marie Antoinette and Louis may be unproven fiction, there are still all the other examples of debauched French nobility of the Versailles court. Louis XIV's rule was most infamous for this kind of shit.

>>3036200
I'm pretty sure the quote is actually made up/mistakenly attributed to her

on a side note, the french version (so the closest to the original) isn't EXACTLY cake, it's "brioche", which is basically bread with a bit of sugar-butter-eggs. It's not really eaten like a cake but more like a posh bread with anything sugary or with foie gras/smoked salmon

>>3049037
what documentation?

>>3040628
>Riding a giant penis ostrich, sticking dildos into her friends, etc

Share please?

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If she wasn't degenerate why did she play with giant penis ostriches?

>>3037122
Id rather see the smug cunts dying in the streets with the rest of the people desu

>>3050366
they were already posted

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>>3050424
Here's what this inspired, btw. This art was exposed at Versailles too. The degeneracy of the French knows no bounds.

>>3050831
Napoleon fixed the problem.

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>>3050831
I remember when they exposed the "Queen's Vagina". I visited Versailles at the time with some foreign friends, they were about to cry, and there were plenty of tourists that felt the same way.

A huge gaping vagina in the middle of the lawn, blocking the entire perspective. Just why?

>>3051993
to be fair that's British art, not French

I wish they'd stop doing modern art exhibitions at Versailles. They have zero place there

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>>3050831
>>3051993
And don't forget this beautiful work of art exposed in the birthplace of the Republic, the Jeu de Paume room, called "Shooting in the corners", except in French it sounds like a play on words on "Fucking in the corners", with the artist saying that canon is eminently phallic, and the corner evokes the female sex.

A dick shooting blood at a cunt. Beautiful.

>>3052009
The first one was by a Portuguese "artist", but the ministry of culture and the people running Versailles are still the ones bringing this shit there. And while I'd love to blame the Brits for that horror, Kapoor is a Indian/Arab Jew, a far leftist one at that, so of course he'd do his best to desecrate Versailles.

>>3051993
>>3052009
>>3052056
I visit Versailles often when I'm in France and the times I've gone during the modern art installations, you can definitely tell which tourists were there to see the actual history because they tend to be either in tears, or otherwise look devestated. The Chateau organization doesn't give a shit though, palace attendance is never affected by the installations so they have no incentive to change.

Speaking of Versailles, has anyone attended the late spring ball masquerades? I've always wanted to go but I'm never there when it's on. This year I did attend the Fêtes Galantes but from what I've seen the masquerade is more of a giant party, lots of drinking, risque dancers on display, etc, whereas the Galantes is a historical evening.

And not my photo, but this year at the Fêtes Galantes there were quite a few people who came all the way from Japan!

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>>3052323
forgot the photo

So what is the best biography to read about her?

niggas know she never actually said that

Whether it was her that was decadent or not, the entire court of the Bourbon Kings was so the aristocrats really got what they deserve and Napoleon turned France (even though briefly) from a broke joke of a country to master of Europe.

>>3053522
It's not as well known but Desmond Seward has a fairly concise biography that doesn't get bogged down in anecdotes or tangents. Fraser's is the one most popular are familiar with but unless you're incredibly interested, there's a lot of "fluff" that isn't necessary for learning the basics about her life.

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>>3039546
>VN when
We're already half way there

>>3036200
https://buk.io/@3913/9/24665~24830?t=2Gm

TL;DR fake news

>>3053671
Broke, yeah. But joke of a country? What makes you say that? France was still the cultural, intellectual, diplomatic center of Europe (though the economic center of Europe had just recently shifted to London), the first European military power, and arguably Britain would only steal it's spot as greatest world power after Napoleon's defeat.

>>3054293
In terms of diplomatic view, other than the Austrians, most viewed the Bourbons as a disgrace. The British were still ticked about their whole support of the American revolutionaries, don't even need to bring up the Prussians.

Was France respected? Yeah, Were its leaders? Definitely not. This is why Bourbons were treated as throwaway nobility to place in as puppets and Napoleon was seen as a great rival that was too honourable and respected to simply be killed off. Hence why he was only exiled, while the Bourbons were killed by their own people.

Important to note is that the fight wasn't necessarily to bring back the Bourbons, it was the UK following its foreign policy of not wanting a single country to dominate Europe and close off the markets to them. Metternich, the Chancellor of Austria, actually wanted peace with honor with Napoleon remaining on the throne and agreeing to the French keeping the left bank of the Rhine.

>>3054312
>tfw Napoleon didn't agree to the Frankfurt proposal

;_;

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>>3053522
It's not a biography but once you've read one, this is a good read. It goes in depth about the political and social attacks on Marie Antoinette and includes pictures, quotes from pamphlets, and I think full 2 translated libelles in the back.