Did Jesus want to die?

>>3001951

we have no historical record of his existence from the period other than the biblical scripture itself, itself written after jesus death, thus having any in-depth discussion about his desire is mere conjecture, provided his existence itself is yet to be verified

>>3001951
No but he accepted his death as a necessity. Judas did literally nothing wrong.

>>3001959
also josephus

Theologically speaking, Jesus has no divine will (or desire, same word) distinct from the Father's. He did take on a human will with the Incarnation but it is in perfect synergy and unity with his divine will. So yes, he was very much willing to die, but he wasn't exactly thrilled about it

>>3001951
from reading the scripture i got a strong impression that is the case.

>>3001951
As a man, he wasn't exactly thrilled about it, as the pain he went through was real and excruciating. But as God, he of course regarded it as a necesity to fufill his purpose on earth.

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"My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

>>3001951

No, he thought he was the Messiah who would lead the Jewish people in revolt against Rome and then rule as a new king. He was mistaken, and the Romans disabused him of his delusion, but sadly this did nothing to stop his fanboys, who shifted from holding Jesus' view that he was the Messiah and instead started claiming he was God Almighty. Jesus would be absolutely horrified and disgusted by this notion, since there is no sin greater in all of Judaism than associating another god with Yahweh (commandment number two: thou shalt have no other gods before me).

>>3001959
>we have no historical record of his existence from the period other than the biblical scripture itself
So? It's doubtful any other records would have been continuously preserved and propagated enough to survive today, and the idea that the Apostles fabricated his existence is pretty silly

>>3001951
Probably, when he found out his gf wasn't the princess he thought and had been a prostitute in the past

>>3001951
He did but at the eleventh hour didn't, hence why he goes to the garden to pray and sweats blood which has scientifically been proven to Happen under great stress

>>3001979
Christ isn't two persons, Nestorius. The Logos is the subject of the passion
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoyZtkrU0s

>>3001983
Christ is God's wisdom talked about in Proverbs 8 and 9. And no, it's not just a poetic personification, ancient Hebrew poetry doesn't do that

>>3002009

Absolute bullshit, you disgusting animals can't help but lie constantly, can you? Proverbs is not a prophetic text, it's POETRY. So yes, "God's Wisdom" is meant poetically, not literally, and in any event it doesn't refer to the Messiah since it isn't a prophecy.

>>3001951
He literally said "My god my god why have you abandoned me."

>>3002021
All prophetic texts in the Bible are poetry...


>>3002035
Quoting a prophetic psalm

>>3001965
this. how anyone can blame judas for playing it exactly as planed i will never understand.

>>3002045
...Yes...


Why do you think he quoted it?

For le random lulz?

>>3002047
Because Judas was not required to betray Christ. Christ prayed God forgive those who crucified him, but to Judas he just said, "Woe to him, it would be better if he were never born."

>>3002045
>All prophetic texts in the Bible are poetry...

But not all poetry is prophetic! You are as dishonest as every single one of your revolting cult I've ever had the misfortune of encountering.

>I go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

God is greater than God?

>But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the son, but the Father (Mark 13:32)

God knows something that God doesn't know?

>>3002050
No, to accentuate its fulfillment

>>3002063

The fulfillment of God abandoning himself? Utter nonsense.

>>3002058
>But not all poetry is prophetic!
Conventional Biblical poetry doesn't personify abstract ideas, let alone have long expositions by them.

>>3002057
>Because Judas was not required to betray Christ
sounds like headcanon. how would jesus have been sacrificed if judas didn't betray him? they needed someone to point him out for them. would jesus just have gonne up to the clergy and announced himself as the messiah or what?

>>3002077

Once again: POETRY. Proverbs is not prophetic, it doesn't deal with the Messiah, it has nothing at all to do with your disgusting cults' veneration of a man as God.

>>3002057

this makes literally no sense if it was the Lord's plan to get crucified.

>>3002058
>God is greater than God?
God refers to the Father here. Christ calls him greater because he is existential principle of the Son, but not vice versa. The Son only does what the Father does.

Christ says that because he doesn't want any speculation about the day of the second coming; it makes a point that if you claim to know, you are exalting yourself above Christ. It also can prevent frauds from claiming Christ told them the day in some mystical vision

>>3002047
If he killed himself then how is he not guilty of murder

>>3001951
How do we know he wasn't a secret masochist that just took his fetish too far?

>>3001972
His writings were edited afterwards, hard to tell what was original

>>3002083
>dude there's this preacher who's opposing us what should we do
>well none of his friends came forward so let's call this whole execution thing off
>yeah let's get back to preparing for the sabbath

>>3002067
The fulfillment of the events described in that psalm

>>3002083
No, pretty sure they could just ask

>>3002088
Hebrew poetry doesn't use that convention, so dismissing it as a poetic convention is silly

>>3002102
So I guess Caesar didn't really go to Gaul after all and just stayed in his villa, and whenever the senators heard him fighting Gauls on the phone he was really sparing with his Gaulish women

>>3002099
>Christ says that because he doesn't want any speculation about the day of the second coming

So God knowingly lies? What a shameless lying sack of filth you are.

>>3001996
What if his mother cheated on Joseph and made up God making her give birth to the Messiah as an excuse?

>>3002106
>Hebrew poetry doesn't use that convention, so dismissing it as a poetic convention is silly

And you're and expert on Hebrew poetry, are you? I'll give you a clue, you total moron: Proverbs is Hebrew poetry, and it does exactly what you claim Hebrew poetry never does. Your vile lies are almost as revolting as your shittuf.

>>3002108
1 Kings 22: 20-23

>Surrounded by extremely religious Jews
I understand why he chose to be crucified.

>>3002117
>being this mad

>>3002117
>Proverbs is Hebrew poetry, and it does exactly what you claim Hebrew poetry never does.
No it doesn't, since wisdom here is clearly existentially distinct from the Father . Wisdom is an actual person; Hebrew poetry doesn't personify anything but persons and peoples and animals and other forms of life

>>3002106
>No, pretty sure they could just ask
well that's 30 pieces of silver fucking wasted

>>3002100
didn't he fall over and bust up his gut or something?

>>3001959
>if we ignore the records of Jesus' existence, there is no record of Jesus' existence

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>>3001983
>No, he thought he was the Messiah who would lead the Jewish people in revolt against Rome and then rule as a new king. He was mistaken, and the Romans disabused him of his delusion, but sadly this did nothing to stop his fanboys, who shifted from holding Jesus' view that he was the Messiah and instead started claiming he was God Almighty. Jesus would be absolutely horrified and disgusted by this notion

You have it all wrong...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3axb2ZwXTQ

>>3002057
And technically he foreshadowed Judas agony and suffering for selling the Son of God. He felt so guilty afterwards he unborned himself (suicide). Couldn't bear live with it. We hope he is met with God's mercy in the after life

>>3002009
>Christ is God's wisdom talked about in Proverbs 8 and 9. And no, it's not just a poetic personification, ancient Hebrew poetry doesn't do that
so, let met get this straight. you refer to the writings of fanatical devotees to a man to justify that man being a god? really strains my raisins....

He didn't want to, as we can see his agony in the garden of Gethsemane
But he knew what would be the result of his sacrifice, so he did it anyways
Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Also if you don't know for sure that you're going to heaven when you die, watch this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fGxOCJCRpA

>>3004587
You wanna know the for sure way to get to know God. Prayer. Ask him tonight, before going to bed, to reveal himself to you in your heart, and do it genuinely. Ask him to lead you to him. That'll probably start a fire of desire in your heart to reader has and make a choice, God Bless.

>>3001959
you are a massive retard, or a troll. I really hope it's the latter.

>>3005190
Don't call him names friend, peace of Christ.

>>3001951
I doubt it since he showed fear about what was going to happen the night before he was arrrested

>>3005181
It's possible to believe in god without the fanfic attached to it. god bless, anon.

>>3005201
Sorry I meant research. Here's a good video I like sending people. Real comfy too aha. God Bless.

https://youtu.be/1zMf_8hkCdc

>>3005215
This is a great start, then you can get to Jesus. You seem like the more intellectual type anyways.

>>3001951
No. In the garden of Gethsemane he prayed to God asking Him to prevent him from having to go through death.

>>3002115
>what if a series of events that are actually possible happened
Naaah im not buying it

>>3005266
but he is God and it was God's will that he die.

Shouldn't we at least try to establish valid proof as to the existence of a biblical Jesus before we discuss these things? You're only feeding into the baseless narrative here...

>>3002107
cringe

>>3005735
>hoax theory
That's why you're a historian of 4chan University and not a real one m8 kek.

>>3001951
Tricky question. He came here to die, but the night before He sweat blood praying that there was any other way possible. There was no other way possible, so He went forward and obeyed unto death, even the death on a cross, one of the most shameful ways to die.

He did that for us. For all of us.

>>3002047
Simple.

Evil will come. But woe to him by whose hand evil comes.

>>3002088
Or your people's rejection of the Messiah, Who is YHWH.

>>3002058
All prophecy is prophecy. Prophecy does not cease being prophecy when Jews say it is not prophecy.

The Father is greater than the Son because the Father sent the Son; He who sends is greater than He Who is sent. Yet the Father and the Son are One. Behold, Israel, your God is One (and his name is Yehoshua).

Each person in the Trinity has a unique feature. The Father gets to declare when His Son can retrieve His Bride. The Son gives Himself a new name that none know but Him. And blasphemy against the Father and Son are forgiven, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (which you do) is unpardonable.

The Trinity is beyond your comprehension; apprehend it and move on.

>>3002293
Hung himself until his corpse rotted and splatted on the ground, in a potter's field, having received his 30 pieces of silver, just as all the prophets foretold.

>>3004548
If you're going to heaven, don't expect to see Judas. Jesus called him a devil, a son of perdition, and said it would have been better for him to never be born.

Judas was a liar, a thief, and a murderer, like his true father, the devil (with whom he was literally possessed at the end). Judas only knew Jesus as rabbi, never as God, Lord and Savior.

Strange how the Jesus deniers flee when there is more than one Christian in a thread. Almost as though they're just saying whatever to be part of the group.

>>3007778
He also called Peter the devil too. You're not properly interpreting the language and text. Also don't condemn someone when you do not even know their final predicament, you're just bringing judgment on yourself. Also St. Matthew believed Judas repented when he returned the silver and admitted he betrayed innocent blood. Jesus would never actually mean that it would be better Judas wasn't born, then they're would be no hope from the crucifixion and resurrection. Judas was so tortured spiritually that he killed himself. Understandably he made the wrong decision but we hope he died fully contrite.

>>3007795
How ecumenical of us kek.

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>>3002088
>POETRY. Proverbs is not prophetic, it doesn't deal with the Messiah, it has nothing at all to do with your disgusting cults' veneration of a man as God.

Isn't Proverbs attributed to a King of Israel? The gospels clearly state that Jesus is the King of Israel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeJ_PaoJQZE

>>3003013
What exactly do you get out of all of this shitposting? I see you in threads week in and week out posting these gibberish videos, obsessing over the most mentally fucked shit. Are you for real, or is this just trolling taken too far?

>>3008422
Christ is a descendant of David. He was crowned king of Israel since birth. However what he truly is the king of of all kings.

>>3001951
Jesus at the last supper knew that he was going to be killed and knew that this was necessary to serve a greater purpose. It's unclear whether he actually wanted to die, but he accepted his fate without protest.

But Jesus on the cross definitely did not want to die. Whatever he knew about his purpose, he felt the pain of his torture like any man would and cried out "My God, why have you forsaken me?"

>>3005655
Yeah, but if you will something that doesn't always mean you want to do it. Usually when there's stuff you have to do that you don't want to do, you have to "will" yourself to do it.

>>3002004
>I follow science when it suits my case, but otherwise completely discard it wholesale

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>>3001951
The Jewish Soldiers in The Passion are dogshit.

If anything what they wore resembled Greco-Roman and Celtic gear, with bits and pieces of antiquated Assyrian stuff, rather than...whatever that is.

>>3009303

his videos barely scrape double digits so his proselytising is in vain.

>>3001959
you realize the biblical scripture is biblical scripture because it is a historical record of his existence? Thats the whole point you fucking retard.

>if you take away all the sources of info on Caesar we have no record of his existence so he didn't exist.

Just gas yourself you fucking reddit faggot. Go watch some more Bart |Ehrman and 'the history of god' on youtube.

>>3001951
Are we talking about Christ the religious figure or Christ as a historic person? Because I'm pretty sure Jesus Christ the man was pretty uncool with the whole crucifixion thing.

He wanted to get PIERCED by some hot Roman studs.

>>3001959
Yes.

That's the whole point.

He came to fulfill the messianic prophecies and die for our sins.

>>3011895
Biblical Jesus is the historical Jesus.

>>3001959
fpbp

>>3012081
Nice try samefag.

>>3012082
Whatever you gotta tell yourself, man.

Of course, as a Christian you're an expert at lying to yourself anyway, so I shouldn't be surprised.

>>3007715
I'm gonna smash my testicles with a hammer and slit my wrists tonight.

I'll do it for you, for all of you.

>>3012088
>get BTFO
>everyone bullies you and calls you a retard
>samefag in an attempt to show agreement

Nice try, butthurt atheist.

>>3002058
>God is greater than God?
Does the idea that some infinities are bigger than others give you problems too?

>>3004548
He was sorry for what he did so he's in heaven
t. Martin Luther

>>3012099
>gets BTFO

not that guy but theres nothing more annoying than some anonymous asshole "claiming victory" or saying someone got "BTFO" in an otherwise empty post.

kill yourself and everyone who posts like you. I havent read your conversation at all, but if that guy really did get "BTFO" then it would be evident in the argument itself and wouldnt need you to endlessly shitpost that youve won until the other guy stops responding.

>>3012107
>infinities are bigger than others
Me sez ure troller.

>>3001959
>we have no historical record of Julius Caesar other than the historical records of him

are all atheists this retarded?

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>>3001951

ARRR

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>>3012246
It's true.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=elvOZm0d4H0

>>3001951
He obviously thought it was necessary. A much better question would be "Did Jesus HAVE to die?"

I mean, did he have to die violently on the cross? Could he not have lived a peaceful life in Galilee with a wife and children, and just been known as the crazy prophet man who tells everyone they need to repent? The Jews have had a few of those prior to Jesus (Elijah, Jeremiah,...), and even though they were all persecuted, most of them weren't tortured and killed for their beliefs.

And if Jesus didn't have to die in that specific fashion, then this raises the question of whether Christ could be wrong about something. Even if Christ had prescient powers (this is unclear even if you accept Bible-magic), maybe he was only seeing what was going to happen, not necessarily what needed to happen. Jesus Christ was a human man after all and should have had free will.

>>3001951
if you think he's real why don't you just fucking ask him?