Did the Romans see the people of north Africa as a different race?

Roman world is split between 2 things, Roman and everyone else

>>3000657
Romans pretty much had three divisions:
>fellow romans and our italic cousins
>effete easterners (even when living west of Rome, like the greek colonists of Marseilles)
>uncultured barbarians
Within these groupings they divided people by nation. Race as in white black yellow wasn't a thing to them. Hardly could be, since they weren't really exposed to anything darker or yellower than gyppos and sarmatians.

>>3000657
They saw them as a different kind of people like the germanics above them and Greeks beside them.

>>3000657
Well they massacred and destroyed Carthage permanently so probably

>>3000661
good post
>>3001588
>>3001595
>>3001602
can you just stop this we wuzing and slight racism

why is it so hard to understand that DIFFERENT TIMES, DIFFERENT MEASURES

nobody cared what were you, did you have citizenship or not, try to use your heads for once

>>3001716
calm down

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>>3001602
>permanently
>

>>3000657
For the millionth time. The concept of "race" as it's used today was not a thing in ancient times. They surely saw them as different peoples, but the distinction would have been more about culture and customs than muh skin colour.

>>3001954
/thread

>>3001588
This sounds like it makes sense.

>>3001716
>nobody cared what were you, did you have citizenship or not
It was never that simple and if you read anything about roman history you'd know it, because it's very talked about by Cicero.
Pompey pere&fils had to impose themselves through the army, because they were considered filthy half-gaul picentines.
Marius got politically blackballed for half his career due to being mere arpinate scum, and Cicero didn't fare much better.
Agrippa wouldn't have had any career without Augustus beyond the army, and he knew it, mere apulian that he was.
These were all citizens for generations, mind you. Just not romans from Rome, which made all the difference for the longest time.
Then came romans from Italy and roman colonies.
Then came the military emperors and it was a fucking free for all as long as you had money and troops.

>>3001731
That's not Carthage, that's Iunonia (Carthago)!!!
Kek, the name didn't really stick in the face of the site, did it?

>>3001954
this should be a banner or something

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The idea Romans had regarding race was a weird idea of how the weather/climate affects phenotype

>Hippocrates of Cos believed, as many thinkers throughout early history did, that factors such as geography and climate played a significant role in the physical appearance of different peoples. He writes that:

“the forms and dispositions of mankind correspond with the nature of the country.”

>He attributed physical and temperamental differences among different peoples to environmental factors such as climate, water sources, elevation and terrain. He noted that temperate climates created peoples who were “sluggish” and “not apt for labor”, while extreme climates led to peoples who were “sharp”, “industrious” and vigilant”. He also noted that peoples of “mountainous, rugged, elevated, and well-watered” countries displayed “enterprising” and “warlike” characteristics, while peoples of “level, windy, and well-watered” countries were “unmanly” and “gentle”.

http://classics.mit.edu/Hippocrates/airwatpl.24.24.html

On the other hand, Romans didn't see race as simple "color" and of course not as White, Black, Yellow, etc. Romans saw themselves as something you may call "Mediterranean", different than the "Pale faced" Celts and Germans up North and different than the Dark skinned Aethopians down the Nile.

https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/ejournals/ElAnt/V1N4/thompson.html

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>>3001954
b-but muh ancient nordic empires

>>3001954
This

Race is a modern social construct. Trying to apply them to historic peoples is ignorance at best, and malicious cultural appropriation at worst

>>3000657
They were seen as an inferior shitskin race

>>3000657
that hannibal is quite questionably dark

>>3002147
thats only politics mr expert, allies werent roman citizens for a long period mind you, the main difference was if you or not a citizen, then you could be called a peasant in the senate, otherwise couldnt even enter it

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>>3004219
>cultural appropriation

>>3005873
I'm pretty sure he meant anachronism.

>>3003607
>Romans saw themselves as something you may call "Mediterranean"
That's a rather disingenuous name. The romans certainly didn't see the mediterranean world as a racial unicum. They spent centuries going out of their way to separate themselves from easterners. Even greeks were quite despised, in spite of all the adoration their culture engendered.

>>3005967
Not really, they saw themselves as a product of Mediterranean life and climate, but yes, superior to other Mediterraneans.

>Greeks

The problem regarding the Greeks and Romans is that while the Roman recognized Greek culture as a pillar of civilization, great and what not, the Greeks were a conquered people and therefore inferior. You have to add to the equation how the Greeks had many colonies and settlements in the Italian peninsula (influencing the Romans and other Italic peoples), and how in most of their myths the Greeks always defeated the ""Roman"" characters.

The same could be say about their relation with the Egyptians. Great civilization, culture, Gods, etc, but again inferior to the might of Roma.

>>3000661
/Thread

>>3004219
>Race is a modern social construct
A modern discovery rather

>>3000661
That's just imperial propaganda. They knew there were different kinds of people and races. They read Aristotle.

>>3001954
Wrong. Read Aristotle.

>>3001954
For the millionth time. The concept of race based on skin color was a thing in the ancient times and I'm not sure why you fuckers keep denying it so hard. In the Bible the Kushites and Ethiopians are commonly noted for having black skin for example.

>>3006479
That's not what he's talking about. Just because you recognise people have different skin doesn't mean you categorise them as a "race" in the same sense we do today.

>>3001954
>What is India's caste system, dating back thousands of years
>Varna literally means color
>Sudra (dark) is the lowest cast
Fucking learn history. The concept of racism isn't new. It's not like people just decided one day to become racist. This is Reddit tier retardation.

>>3006521
>the concept of races based on skin color didn't exist until de Gobineau I sware on me mum
I wonder why certain people push this meme so hard when it's patently false.

>>3006534
Do you think Romans considered themselves the same "race" as nords, germanics or carthaginians?

>>3006531
A caste system is not the same racism m8.

>>3006559
So making somebody a slave laborer because they are dark skinned isn't racism? That's a real revelation.

>>3006559
I'm currently taking a shit that has a higher iq than you

>>3006573
So from the light reading I just did, it seems more like a generic caste system and I don't see a direct correlation to race. It seems to more generally translate to "outward appearance".

It seems to more indicate a sort of ethnicity rather than "race". At least not our modern conception of it.

>>3006606
>>3006559
Are you actually retarded or just pretending

>>3001954
This is an outright lie. Maybe ancient peoples in ancient times had very well defined concepts of race. Take the Iranics for example which is blatant for over 3500+ years.

>>3006609
What exactly makes you think a caste system and racism mean the same thing?

>>3006628
>caste system based on skin color
>not racist

>>3006628
When the caste system was based on race.

>>3006606
>Light reading
Ok, so you haven't actually researched it

Once again, the whole system means color (Varna)

The whitest were the highest castes, the darkest lower. The lowest were the pure dravidians, the darkest you could get. Even the caste, Sudra means dark.

>>3001954
Why do people feel the need to push this ideology? Culture was important but so were the factors that your EYES could perceive.
You can tell someone is not from where you are by their skin color, facial characteristics, etc.
This was especially important in Ancient (probably more neolithic times when you needed to confirm who was from your tribe (and thus more trust worthy) and who was an invader.
You are denying biological realities in favor of your Disney-esque multiculti world view.
A point of pride for ancient peoples for thousands of years was claiming your ancestry was from where you are currently living.

>>3006635
>>3006637
I'm reading through the wikipedia article on varna and I don't see any general consensus on what constitutes the different varna other than societal roles. Sometimes it's based on lineage, sometimes it's based on colour, sometimes there's no discernible difference other then role.

What sources specifically are you basing this on?

>>3003610
Nobody believes in what this image implies.

>>3006669
>lineage and color
So, a fucking race.

>>3006437
And unless they were Roman they were inferior peoples

>>3003610
Cucks like to bring up the extreme nordicists, but there are very few of them even on /pol/, completely marginal. Almost nobody believes that ancient Egyptians were Nordic. Meanwhile the we wuz ferros niggas are everywhere.

>>3006669
>Wikipedia

Fuck it. Why actually read academic sources. Comparative mythology by Jaan Puhval touches on it.

The highest class (whitest) wasnt even allowed to approach the darker for fear of tainting. Murdering a Sudra could be repented through sacraficing an iguana or frog.

Sudra weren't allowed to read the Vedas even.

Now replace Sudra with black (what it means) and tell me that isn't racism

>>3006669
>Wikipedia

Fuck it. Why actually read academic sources. Comparative mythology by Jaan Puhval touches on it.

The highest class (whitest) wasnt even allowed to approach the darker for fear of tainting. Murdering a Sudra could be repented through sacraficing an iguana or frog.

Sudra weren't allowed to read the Vedas even.

Now replace Sudra with black (what it means) and tell me that isn't racism.

>>3006707
Who exactly would've been the "whites" and "blacks" in this system? Considering it's a Hindu caste system I doubt it would involve our conception of it (Europeans and Africans).

>>3006747
Whites = Indo-Europeans (Indo-Europeans like the Saka for instance).

Blacks= dravidians

>>3000657
Early Romans saw different groups in Italy as different races

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>>3005873
>>3005912
I meant: "taking something of value from another culture and either claiming it as your own or pretending like you have some exclusive claim to say what is and isn't a part of it". Weeaboos are a fine example of this phenomenon, as are "white people" who think that Ancient Rome was a place built by "white people" and take its accomplishments as their own, even though actual Romans would have looked down on the pink-skins and they probably have more blood ties with the Celts whom Romans mindlessly butchered for glory and profit. "Black people" do it with ancient Egypt, which is equally retarded pseudo-history.

I'm Italian-American with roots in the Roman area of Italy, so I probably have more claim than most for considering ancient Romans "my people". But I don't consider them that because of my blood bond, or because I have anything against the Basileia tôn Rhōmaiōn, but because "Rome" as they understood it was an ideal, a public trust which inspired Italian city states to put aside their petty rivalries and unite for mutual protection and economic enrichment, and that unity and willingness to be continuously Romanizing new people and continuously making new citizens is what made them so enduring, and capable of bouncing back from brutal military defeats. That's what we pass on: an ideal which speaks to truths which are universal across cultures, not crude matter which completely replaces itself every 7 years. That's why it's perfectly valid to consider the Byzantine Empire a continuation of the Roman Empire, even though they were Greeks who abandoned Latin fairly early in its history.

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>>3006425
What we've discovered in the modern age is that H.Sapiens as a species are unusually close to each other genetically, to the point where scientists hypothesize that there was some kind of ecological disaster in the recent (by evolutionary standards) past which reduced the total population of breeding adults down to a mere 10,000~ pairs and left humans overwhelmingly similar in terms of genetic make up, even with respect to other primates or any mammal.

What we've also learned is that each ethnic group is the result of previous ethnic groups blending together over scales vastly longer than the span of a single human life, with repeated cycles of migration out of the Ukrainian heartland (an incredibly fertile, nutrient rich area where the PIE peoples originated) swelling to historically unprecedented numbers and then migrated away from, mixing with the indigenous peoples and creating new ones over time.

Like all facets of culture, "race" is a social construct, a fabrication meant to fortify social bonds, not something with any genetic precedence beyond strictly cosmetic surface differences. And this is the mainstream consensus for scientists and professionals in the field.

>>3000657
They are the same race Caucasoid but a different type of Caucasoid from the White Human or North West Eurasian Temperate Caucasoid.

>>3003610
Those people are egyptians

>>3006890
Be careful, /pol/tard will come in force to shit on you

>Muh behavorial genetics
>Muh 9 discovered SNP (cognitives genes) among hundreds of undiscovered genes
>Muh genes frequence.

>>3003610
To anyone who thinks this picture is legit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fayum_mummy_portraits

>>3006767
They failed hard

>>3006667
You're proving his point, if you actually bothered to read the entire post instead of tilting all over it with the typical breitbart shit

>>3008761
This.
>>3003610
Those Romans were from Upper Egypt.

for all intents and purposes this >>3000661

However it is worth noting they admired foreign figures like Hannibal or Pyrrhus. Carthage taught them a lot which helped them conquer the Mediterranean. They built a navy from scratch in response, they learned about gaining client states and allies, they moved on from blocky mechanical tactics.

This can be contrasted with the common modern view that all invaders are huge evil bad bad guy imperialists. The Romans did not fear the outside world but neither did they fawningly love it (besides Greece), they were discriminating and they went out and obtained what they liked the look of.

>>3006890
this couldn't be more of a farce. any geneticist with a shred of credibility recognizes race in some form as a genetic reality. you can tell the race of someone just from looking at their skeleton.

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>>3001716
>slight racism
you care that much?

>>3001954

jesus christ that bluepill

>>3008716
roman egyptians

>>3000661
Greeks and Macedonians were considered equal, it seems to me more akin to Mediterraneans and otherwise

Yes.

>>3006671
Take a trip to /pol/ my friend

Race isn't a social construct. Rather society is a racial construct.

>Wikipedia

Fuck it. Why actually read academic sources. Comparative mythology by Jaan Puhval touches on it.

The highest class (whitest) wasnt even allowed to approach the darker for fear of tainting. Murdering a Sudra could be repented through sacraficing an iguana or frog.

Sudra weren't allowed to read the Vedas even.

Now replace Sudra with nigger (what it means) and tell me that isn't funny.

>>3006479
There were "brown" or "black" roman citizens. Obviously they recognized the darker skin tone, but they didn't have a concept of "race"
There were black african popes during roman times

>>3010754
I live there and I've only seen it a handful of times and they were clearly trolls.

My black friends Unironically post kang memes to twitter and have conversations about it with me.

The thing with race is that it's increased relevancy and/or articulation in the West is a product of the United States being full of people(settlers and slaves) that are unable to trace their familial origins to a time before their ancestral settlement in the US.

This has led to a new identitarianism based on the broader spectrum of race, rather than dynasty which preceded it. So when we see ancient western civilizations like the Romans not be fixated on race, it's not because they were some worldly progressive people but rather, because racism was not nearly a strong enough level of bigotry for them.

Remember the divide between Patrician and Pleb. Romans weren't racist, because hereditary stratification in Rome was too anal to get into the issue of race. Merely being born into the wrong family was more than enough to be seen as a second class citizen of Rome.

In this sense, racism is something of a more inclusive and progressive step away from what the ancients practiced.

>Wikipedia

Fuck it. Why actually read academic sources. Comparative mythology by Jaan Puhval touches on it.

The highest class (whitest) wasnt even allowed to approach the darker for fear of tainting. Murdering a Sudra could be repented through sacraficing an iguana or frog.

Sudra weren't allowed to read the Vedas even.

Now replace Sudra with nigger (what it means) and tell me that isn't funny.

>>3001954
Partly true. The concept of race existed on skin color too. Herodotus kinda talks about that.

However a lot of the stereotypes did not exist. In plutarch life of Cicero he notes a quip in the courtroom directed at a north African, "like the holes in your ears" because they pierced their ears.

I think hate among the ancient concept of race was different than today (obviously). Race mixing was common but in some instances frowned upon because of citizenship or cultural norms. Alexander married his officers to Persian women (and no they weren't your Nordic phenotype your memes claim they are)

>>3000661

slapped my breast with my right arm

>>3008761
Wasn't everyone aware these were Egyptians?

>>3013719
>they weren't Nordic phenotypes your memes claim they are
Not him, obviously not but many of the Persian and Iranian women were famed for being fair skinned like Roxana. Hell, just the fact Hollywood decided to have an African woman portray her in the Alexander movie by Stone had Iranians pissed to hell.

>Wikipedia

Fuck it. Why actually read academic sources. Comparative mythology by Jaan Puhval touches on it.

The highest class (whitest) wasnt even allowed to approach the darker for fear of tainting. Murdering a Sudra could be repented through sacraficing an iguana or frog.

Sudra weren't allowed to read the Vedas even.

Now replace Sudra with nigger (what it means) and tell me that isn't funny.

>>3009341
Do you know that the word "race" is zoothechnic term and not zoological?
It's not even a formal taxonomic rank

Dogs, cows, horses and so on have races

And only because we bred them