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Has SEA historically been influenced by India more? Or China more?
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>>3000484
China
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>>3000484
India
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>>3000484
Both
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>>3000484
Christanity actually.
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>>3000516
This.
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There is definitely a lot of Indian influence in East Asia.
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India. In fact China was influenced by India the most.
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>>3000484
It's a Gradient. Burma, Thailand, Cambodia is POOED as fuck.
Vietnam meanwhile was basically bootleg Imperial China.
Then you have the Islandnigs who had a balance of both and then got Islamed.
>>3000520
Only applies to Flipland.
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>>3000484
Middle East
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>>3000484
At least in Indonesia, more India, hinduism has been a thing for a long time over there, lot of clear indian influence (literature especially).
Then later, Arab traders also had major influence.
In southeast asia in particular, it varies.
Vietnam certainly has more chinese influence, at least in language considering the Han annexed a part of it.
Otherwise, Indian influence trumps China.
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>>3000484
Formerly India. Khmers, indonesians, borneans, and Filipinos were indianized. Vietnam was sinafied. Then Arab culture became dominant after some of the Malaysian and Indonesian kings converted to Islam.
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Mainland SEA =China. Island SEA = India.
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>>3001028
no, the only thing china influenced in the mainland was vietnam while the rest was hindu/buddhist
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Racially, China
Culturally, India
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>>3000789
I thought Vietnamese was Austroasiatic, not Sino-Tibetan.
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>>3001471
>southern part of Vietnam was hindu under the chams for centuries
Which Vietnam destroyed and absorbed into their Sinic-style Empire.
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>>3001485
Burmese and some Thai-Lao ethnics are Sino-Tibetan
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Philippines = China due to the Chinese traders and pirates, I don't recall learning about any Indian influence
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>>3001488
We're talking about the overal influence of India on SEA. I agree that Vietnam anno 2017 has more in common with China, definitely, but if we're looking to the territory that is considered Vietnam today and watch it for all of its history I think the result is pretty even
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>>3001495
Philippines are more Pacific islanders than Indian or China
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>>3000484
Yes.
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>>3000484
Depends on the time period, place, and context. I work in Cambodia so I'll use it as an example. In terms of Indian influence, the language derives it script from Pali and borrows words reserved for speaking about Buddhism and the monarchy from Sanskrit and Pali. Religiously, the official religion of Angkorean Cambodia was before Buddhism. Both faiths originating in India.
As for Chinese influence, many Khmer people have Chinese ancestors. Some as recent as WW2, some centuries ago. Chinese ancestor veneration is practiced by them and Chinese New Year is celebrated along with other days that commemorate ancestors. Teochew, Cantonese and other dialects are still spoken by some Sino Chinese, especially older folks. Some words from the dialects have creeped into khmer language but the influence isn't as palpable as the Indic one.
Politically, Cambodia is very much under the thumb of china today. They're the biggest provider of aid and Cambodia supports them in their territorial disputes with various ASEAN states in exchange for aid.
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>>3001750
Sorry for not indenting. I'm on my phone and my hands are wet. Rainy season in full effect
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>>3000718
>>3000789
>>3001000
>>3001028
These are largely correct. Vietnam, especially the northern half, was definitely more influenced by China than India. They wrote with a version of Chinese characters for a very long time, and borrowed a HUGE amount of words from Middle Chinese.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Xenic_pronunciations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoption_of_Chinese_literary_culture
The rest of Southeast Asia has traditionally been more influenced by India, thanks to the spread of Hinduism, Sanskrit and the Indic Scripts.
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>>3000484
With the exception of Vietnam and the Philippines, India has been far more influential over SEA.
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>>3001818
>Philippines
they Chinese?
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>>3001521
>Pacific Islanders
not sure if bait but flips are more asian than pacific islanders
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>>3001882
Regarding cultural sphere, they're closer to pacific islanders
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>>3001889
lots of chinese, arabic, indian influence in the philippines before the spanish.
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>>3001895
Only in few areas, most of Philippine consist of mountain - coastal tribes similar to Polynesians and Taiwanese Aborigines
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>>3001899
flips only became culturally distant from the rest of SEA when they were colonized. before that they were more SEAn than now
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>>3001914
by that shouldn't indons and malays also be pacific islanders? they all austronesians anyway
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>>3001918
Malays are heavily Indianised and later minorly Sinitised, perhaps at the same level as Mon-Khmers and at the same level of Chams after Islamisation
Don't know much about Indons (Indonesians?) but considering they have many large Buddhist ruins and pockets of Hinduism like Bali its probably similar
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>>3001942
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Tondo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma-i
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultanate_of_Sulu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majapahit
>Mindanao, Sulu Archipelago and some parts of the Visayas islands as under Majapahit realm of power
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajahnate_of_Cebu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namayan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madja-as
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_pre-colonial_Philippines#Hinduism
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>>3001914
Actually the mountian tribe culture is the minority
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>>3001978
We don't have our own records to prove this.
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>>3001987
prove what?
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>>3001997
We wuz kangz and majapahit and shet
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>>3001889
>Filipinos
>Pacific Islanders
Californian Peenoise detected.
This place is Asian. Stop pretending to be a special snowflake.
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As far as peninsular Malaysia is concerned, the Malacca Sultanate was a tributary state and protectorate of the Ming dynasty who gave them protection from other powers like Thailand and the Majapahit. Malacca was one of the stops for Admiral Zheng He's treasure fleet mission, and the Malacca Sultan visited China to pay tribute to the Ming emperor. One of the Sultans of Malacca later married a Chinese woman, Princess Hang Li Po, and a wave of Chinese settlers intermarried with the locals and formed the Peranakan community.
The Chinese were also later hostile to the Portuguese in part in response to the Portuguese conquest of Malacca.
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>>3002019
>The Portuguese conquest of Malacca enraged the Zhengde Emperor of China when he received the envoys from the exiled Sultan Mahmud.[53] The furious Chinese emperor responded with brutal force, culminating the period of three decades of prosecution of Portuguese in China.
>Among the earliest victims were the Portuguese envoys led by Tomé Pires in 1516 that were greeted with great hostility and suspicion.[54] The Chinese confiscated all of the Portuguese property and goods in the Pires embassy's possession.[55] Many of the envoys were imprisoned, tortured and executed. Pires himself was said among those who died in the Chinese dungeons.[56] Two successive Portuguese fleets bound for China in 1521 and 1522 were attacked and defeated in the first and second Battle of Tamao.
>In response to Portuguese piracy and the illegal installation of bases in Fujian at Wuyu island and Yue harbour at Zhangzhou, Shuangyu island in Zhejiang, and Nan'ao island in Guangdong, the Imperial Chinese Right Deputy Commander Zhu Wan exterminated all the pirates and razed the Shuangyu Portuguese base, using force to prohibit trading with foreigners by sea.[57] Moreover, Chinese traders boycotted Malacca after it fell under Portuguese control, with some Chinese in Java even assisting in Muslim attempts to invade the city.
lordy
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>>3002001
but we wuz rajahs and huangs and shiet
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>>3002032
Some of the sources are questionable and don't even work anymore.
It also seems like a lot of blanket assumption as we are an archipelago and even within an island for example not everything that happened in Pangasinan happened in Bicol
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>>3002042
fine. i guess the majapahit and some of the links were pretty dubious but flips are more asian than pacific islanders.
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>>3001485
We're talking culturally, not necessarily linguistically.
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Myanmar here, which you could see as being a mix of Chinese and Indian influences, the same way you might see the UK as being a mix of Scandinavian and French influences.
You've also got to consider how influential the Mon-Khmer were with regards to Buddhism and Pali being brought in.
Politically, China has a lot more influence, although the cancellation of the Myitsone dam was a huge shock to them.
>Indian
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>>3002182
whoops, sorry didn't mean to leave india hanging.
As far as the religion goes, Thais seem to have an affinity with hinduism, as a sort of "older" religion, you can see ethnic Thais going to some hindu temples in Bangkok and getting a tikka, etc. That doesn't really happen in Myanmar and there's quite a bit of racism against indians and muslims.
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>>3000718
>Burma, Thailand, Cambodia is POOED as fuck.
You forgot Laos as well.
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>>3002157
so India, if you include Indian muslims
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>>3002188
>That doesn't really happen in Myanmar and there's quite a bit of racism against indians and muslims.
Not very related but Myanmar, alongside Singapore is one of the only two ASEAN countries not to recognize Palestine.
How's the relation between Muslims and the Buddhist-majority countries?
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Muslim (((traders))) were a mistake
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>>3001495
Flips are more Mexican than anything else. Every real "Asian" (read Sinocentric) culture looks down on them as backwards darkskin savages.
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>>3001764
Do you use a proxy? When I was in Cambodia/Thailand a couple months ago I couldn't post to 4chan, and it implied the country was IP-banned.
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>>3001804
This map needs to include Madagascar :-/
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>>3002621
How do they relate to southeast Asia?
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What about food /his/tory? Why does SEA cuisine seem to be more chinese influenced? Was it because indian spices were unavailable?
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>>3004172
Malagasy came from Borneo.
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>>3005246
Did they bring the Hindu with them?
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>>3005283
They came in ancient time, when Austronesians still followed their indigenous religion.
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WHO /kratom/ HERE
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>>3002449
I get banned on my phone a lot. I'm a lurker so it's fine. I only use mobile data in the village I stay in. I just use my laptop for work in the village. Tropical environments do a number on computers. I have no clue why the country is IP banned. I can't imagine most people here aside from tourists or expats working would even go on 4chan.
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>>3005110
I can speak about Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam in that regard. All three countries have certain dishes that are influenced by Chinese cuisine and introduced by Chinese immigrants. But cuisine in these three countries really makes use of fermented fish paste in soups and also as dips with vegetables like cucumbers or eggplants. I'm not sure if some regions of China have the same affinity for fermented fish paste as here but it's certainly unique. I call it the Cheese of the Orient.
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The Sultanate of Melaka which controlled Malaya was a vassal of the Chinese Ming dynasty, when the Portuguese conquered them the Chinese threw a shitfit and made life as difficult as possible for Portuguese envoys and traders in revenge.
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See for yourself.
The following images are taken from the so-called "Boxer Codex," which is an Ethnographic Atlas commissioned by Spanish authorities in the Philippines during the 1570s to summarize the cultures, histories, and appearances of people living in Southeast Asia & China, with particular focus on Native Filipinos (who were their subjects) and the Chinese (who were the focus of Spanish trade in the region).
The book resembles a typical European codex with two notable exceptions: it is made of bamboo paper because the primary supplier of writing materials in the Philippines were the Chinese, and its artist is highly suspected to be a Filipino-Born Chinese convert who is highly familiar with both European and Chinese style of painting. The figures were Chinese-style, but the border is typical European codex stuff.
It starts of with the inhabitants of what is today, Guam, whom the Spanish called "Ladrones (Thieves)" because when Magellan stopped there to replenish his supplies, some of the local Chamorros (the natives of Guam) stole some of his small boats.
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>>3005780
Another Ladron
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>>3005785
The following images are of people living in what is now the Philippines, who are of especial interest in this atlas.
First up: a Cagayan Princess, from the people living in the Cagayan River Valley, Northern Luzon island.
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>>3005790
A Cagayan Warrior.
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>>3005792
People that the Spanish called "Negrillos/Negritos" (Little Negros, literally), who were basically the first people to settle in Insular Southeast Asia before the ancestors of Flips/Malaysians/Indonesians came in and dominated the place.
These live all over the Philippines, with the most notable group being the Aeta people in Luzon island.
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>>3005799
The Zambal. An animist people living also in Northern Luzon, following their displacement by the seafaring Tagalogs.
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>>3005802
Zambals hunting and performing augury on a water buffalo.
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>>3005803
A Zambal Couple
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>>3005806
These following images are of the Visayans, a blanket term for tribes and kingdoms who live in the dense island groupings in the middle of the Philippines and spoke the same language: Visaya, and who were some of Spain's first subjects in the region considering they first landed in the Philippines there.
These are Visayan warriors whom the Spanish called Pintados (Painted Ones) for their tattoos.
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>>3005811
Visayans belonging to the Timawa (a warrior-middle class of sorts) social caste.
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>>3005814
Visayan royalty.
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>>3005816
Visayan royalty. The earlier royalty were probably Visayan muslims, with these ones being from the Indianized Kingdoms in the Visayas region.
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>>3005819
The next image are of a people labelled "Naturales (de Luzon)" or "Natives (of Luzon.)" Composed primarily of the Tagalogs whose kingdoms and tribes make up the biggest ethnic group in the Luzon island in Northern Philippines.
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>>3005824
Tagalog common women.
By this point in time many in Luzon have converted to Islam. Considering the vast sway Later Islamic empires and states in Indonesia and Borneo used to have in Insular Southeast Asia.
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>>3005826
Tagalog royalty.
Also by this point, Spain was making headway in ruling over the Tagalog bits of the Luzon island, meaning some of the people in these pictures depict their colonial subjects.
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>>3005832
A Tagalog couple of the Maginoo (warrior-gentry) Class.
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>>3005835
The next images depict people living outside the Philippines and Spanish ruled territories.
A couple from Borneo.
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>>3005837
A couple from the once-mighty Sultanate of Brunei, which used to hold an empire that covered all of Borneo and had colonies in the Philippines.
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>>3005844
A Bruneian aristocratic lady.
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>>3005846
A warrior from Malacca, an influential trading port and famous in 16th Century Insular Southeast Asia as a huge manufacturer of firearms.
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Muslims
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>>3005849
A warrior from the states of Java. Possibly a nobleman.
Note the imported Japanese swords this one is wearing.
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>>3005854
A warrior from the Iranun. A seafaring seminomadic people famous for being pirates in Insular Southeast Asia.
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>>3005858
Warriors from Siau, a small Island Kingdom in the Celebes Sea, between what is now Indonesia and the Philippines.
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>>3005860
A Siamese couple from what is now Thailand. A kingdom in the rise as middlemen in the SEAsian trading scene. Although frequently fucked up by the warlike Burmese.
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>>3005863
Japanese. Most specifically Japanese immigrants and exiles found all over Southeast Asia. Driven to the region by trade, adventure, piracy, mercenary work, and the avoidance of wars in 16th Century Japan, they were a common sight especially amongst mercenaries in the region.
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good shit, keep posting
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>>3005865
A couple from "Caupchy," the Spanish rendering of the Vietnamese name: Giao Chi, or today Tonkin.
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>>3005867
Tonkinese urbanites.
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>>3005870
A couple fron "Canglan," Spanish for "Guang Nan." Another Vietnamese province. Possibly depicting Mandarin Scholar-Bureaucrat Aristocrats of the Vietnamese Empire.
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>>3005878
Chams. Who by this point are complete subjects of the Vietnamese Emperor.
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>>3005883
A Cheylam Couple. The Cheylam is the Spanish rendering of Keilang, an Aboriginal group in Formosa, today Taiwan.
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>>3005886
Tamchui. Another aboriginal Taiwanese group.
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>>3005890
Taipue. Another aboriginal Taiwanese group.
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>>3005895
A couple form Tampochia. 16th Century Spanish for Kampuchea. At this time the Khmers have already lost their once mighty empire to the Thais in the West and Vietnamese to the East.
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>>3005898
For some reason, the Spanish saw fit to mention the Mongols (waved off as a Tartars as per the ethnonym used by Medieval Europeans to call every horsenigger in central asia), as a backgrounder for the troubles plaguing late Ming China.
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>>3005901
The last chapters of the Ethnography part of the Boxer Codex summarizes Chinese society, to whom Spain paid particular focus on considering trade with them is one of the chief reasons for Spanish presence in SEA.
Starting with Chinese peasantry.
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>>3005915
Chinese commoners of Urban stock
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>>3005917
A couple from Chinese merchant stock.
Fun fact: A Chinese merchant is called "Sangley" by Spanish colonial authorities in the Philippines. Hell, Spain called every Chinese living in the Philippines as "Sangley." This came from the fact that when Spain held censuses, the Chinese merchants in the Philippines have no idea what to put in "race." So they instead replied "Sengli." Hokkien for "Merchants," thinking it was their professions that the Spanish were asking. And the name stuck.
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>>3005921
Forgot picture
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>>3005923
Members of the Scholar-Bureaucrat Aristocracy of Imperial China. Succinctly identifed by Spaniards as "Letrado" (literate, or man of learning.)
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>>3005925
A Chinese General and one of his Captains.
Interestingly this is one of the images that proves that the artist is some Second-Generation Chinese immigrant living in Spanish-held Philippine territory. Because he's working off painting memes in Chinese art, in this case, a form of armor that has been obsolete in China for almost a century now.
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>>3005932
A Chinese princely family, depicting members of the Imperial Household.
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>>3005938
Finally, the "King of China." The Chinese Emperor.
Again, artist is working off outdated conventions, since this is Song-Period clothing. A Ming-period emperor wouldve worn this one >>3005938 instead.
The rest of the Codex is about plants and animals found in Southeast Asia and Chinese Mythology. But since this is an SEA thread, I post the Ethnography instead. This ends the ethnography.
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>>3002024
A bit of fun fact, later it turns out the Portuguese were cooperating with the Javanese sultans to bring down Malacca which is their rival. They gave the Portuguese treasures and Sumatra rhinos as gift for the king of Portugal but in typical story of greed they overloaded their ship and sunk with all their loot from Malacca.
Iberian blood just can't resist dem gold.
If I recall it right an American soldier settled here in Malaysia looking for that ship after Vietnam War and Malaysian authorities stated that they found a wreck which seems to be the sunken Flor de la Mar back in 2014.
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>>3005921
>This came from the fact that when Spain held censuses, the Chinese merchants in the Philippines have no idea what to put in "race."
Was it just a language problem, or was there some fundamental misunderstanding going on about what they meant by race?
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>>3006004
Both iirc.
Because the Chinese didn't know what Spain meant by "Chino/Sino" since they didn't call themselves that. In addition that was an Imperial Identity as opposed to an ethnic one as many understand Chineseness today.
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>When the thread becomes stellar with period sources.
Thanks anon
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>>3005992
Sounds like a good setting for next Uncharted game.
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Thanks to the codex anon, i am part filipino and this has been very interesting to learn about
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>>3006514
Still nobody goes searching at Java sea much when Malacca strait has a gorillion shipwreck that is easier to retrieve. Last time Malaysian navy confirmed at least 700+ shipwrecks and part their diver training is basically 'dive and get some ancient ceramic plates to cover operating cost'.
Besides that as legend goes Malacca did not store all their treasures inside the city but also hid them in Nangka island off its shores but nothing much was found other than some coins and artifacts dating back to 13th century.
Too bad there is not much Portuguese records to help since the combined Johor Sultanate and Dutch forces went full Deus Vult/Jihad time so hard all that remains of the Portuguese now is the gate of their fort.
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>>3006728
the area around malaccan straits is really underrated, it was chock filled with pirates up until 19th century and even now here in indonesia you can still see news about pirates getting arrested, i think it only started to really calm down around 2009. also look at this shit , the biggest single collection of Tang dynasty artefacts and a fully preserved 8th century arabian merchant vessel all found in one location
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belitung_shipwreck
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>>3006852
>really calm down around 2009
The pirates simply adapted to technological advancement instead. Due to ground radar coverage and UAV patrols since 2014 there are cases where instead of speedboat riding pirates jacking ships they hijack the ships from the inside.
These pirates are trained and educated crews who went to work with firms distributing goods from Singapore to surrounding regions before knocking out the crews with chlorofom and drugging the food. Then they move the ship to international waters in Andaman sea where their syndicate barge would steal the goods and fuel.
No SOS or any emergency signal just the navy finding drifting ships with the crews tied up later on and quarters of the infiltrator torched.
I remember a news report few years ago where the navy spokeman said the the navigator of the the targeted ship was a pirate all along.
This is probably the latest victim of these new generation of pirates.
http://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2017/06/27/special-team-to-probe-fuel-siphoning-of-thai-tanker/
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what did ancient filipino cities looked like?
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>>3006905
fucking hell and i thought the somalis were bad
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>>3006922
Somalis are illiterate and starving men, these are diploma or degree holders who knew better than to hole up in a ship with a hostage waiting for the wrath of the entire world's navy to storm the ship.
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>>3006907
we had cities?
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>>3000484
SEA was original hindu people until chinese moved south invaded raped and rove out thats why its indo china. To this day the Han chinese have been trying to purify china from indian dna in the south. I heard they eat the people and sell them like pork.
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>>3007606
t. Pajeet
We're Buddhist not Hindus, Southern china didn't have Indian admixture, its SEA who got it, and we're ourself are selectively breeding out those qualities because of how ugly it is
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>>3001464
>Racially China
Ehh not necessarily. Yes and no. I would say it was both in some cases like Thailand
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>>3005915
>>3005917
>>3005923
Instead of a class based designation the author may have been trying to distinguish Han subgroups within Fujian province.
The first image is labeled Sheke,an ethnonym for a Hmong-Mien speaking minority who heavily intermarried with Hakka speaking populations.
The second image lacks a caption so I won't comment further.
As for the third image,Changlai/Sengli was a southern Fujianese term.
>Because he's working off painting memes in Chinese art, in this case, a form of armor that has been obsolete in China for almost a century now.
While the parsimonious explanation is the author based this painting on temple murals/woodblock prints,this type of armor was still used during the late Qing.
>>3007606
>SEA was original hindu people until chinese moved south invaded raped and rove out thats why its indo china.
Tibeto Burman,Austroasiatic,Austronesians.Hmong Mien,Tai Kadai speakers aren't Chinese,though Southern Han assimilated the later two.
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>>3010404
>this type of armor was still used during the late Qing.
Dunno m8, everyone heavily armored in 16th Century China seemed to be wearing this kind of armor instead of the Classic Song-Early Ming style
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>>3010404
The image attached in my previous message is from the Qing Guo Piao Liu Tu the Chokyumaru crew's sojourn in Qing China under the Jiaqing Emperor.
Here's a Chongzhen era woodblock print(Chao Zei Tu Ji).
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>>3010440
Then I guess it was still in use.
Chinese armor was barely uniform anyway.
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>>3010431
>>3010458
The image you've linked is only applicable towards the Imperial garrisons,iirc some high ranking Jinyiwei wore ceremonial versions of this antiquated style.
From what I've seen,this style of armor was relatively uncommon and worn by elites.
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>>3010468
Damn near any kind of full armor in China was used by elite soldiers and officers.
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>>3010479
Not necessarily,even the rank and file from the border garrisons were well armored.
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>>3010488
Aren't those guys pretty elite to begin with?
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>>3010349
That would be the case in Burma/Myanmar and Cambodia, Thais and Laotian are descended from Tai Kadai ethnics migration from south China
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>>3010516
Maybe relative to wei-suo garrisons further in the countryside,though not compared to the larger garrisons such as Ji or Liao.
Elites wear lamellar while high ranking officers wear scale.
>>3010520
>That would be the case in Burma/Myanmar and Cambodia, Thais and Laotian are descended from Tai Kadai ethnics migration from south China
Genetically,Thais and Burmese share part of their ancestry with the native Austorasiatics they assimilated.
Thais derive their part of their ancestry from Tai Kadai populations in Yunnan/Guangxi/Guizhou while the Burmese are related to the Yi/Lolo of Yunnan.
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>>3010540
The prior population are assimilated, but no mixing with Indians really occurred except around Burma and border of India
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>>3011426
>The prior population are assimilated, but no mixing with Indians really occurred except around Burma and border of India
I wasn't talking about Indian admixture,what differentiates Thais/Burmese from their Chinese counterparts(Dai,Yi) is their Austroasiatic genetic substrate.
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