Another Marxist thread

>>2990122

Exactly, real Communism has never been tried.

>>2990122
No, because Marx was wrong on the "immiseration of the Proletariat". Wages in Europe largely increased in Europe starting in the 1840s, thus gradual things like unions and such were seen as good enough.

t. /pol/kiddy trying to play nice

>Has Communism ever been implemented in a First World Late Stage Capitalist country

Let's unpack this.

First: Communism is not an ideology, it's an endgame. The word you're looking for is socialism.
Second: First World Late Stage Capitalist country
This only refers to near future scenarios, at a stretch you could say it's present, but be prepared to plead that case.
So your question is now: "has socialism been implemented in some future state like Marx said it should be?"

>>2990122
>he fell for the historic determinism meme
>he fell for the historic materialism meme
>he fell for the conflict perspective meme

I respect socialists. But nothing on this earth can make me respect marxists.

>>2990164
OP here. Holy shit dude I think you just blew the fuck out of me. I have no idea how to reply to redpills like that. I should probably just close this thread already.

>>2990172
You really should, this is literally politics and has nothing to do with history.
>b-but hu-
Fuck &humanities, anything can fall under that bullshit umbrella.
Saged.

>To be sure, the weakness of anti-capitalist movements in the developed countries is one more reason for the existence of national-revolutionary movements. For the latter cannot wait for the proletarian revolution in the dominating capitalist countries; yet, where they succeed, they can reach at best only partial release from foreign exploitation but not the conditions of socialism. On the other hand, successful proletarian revolutions in the capitalistically developed nations could lead to the internationalisation of all social struggles and progressively hasten the integration of underdeveloped nations into a socialist world system.
That there are national-revolutionary movements in the backward nations but not as yet socialist movements in the imperialist countries is due to the greater and more pressing misery in the former.
t.Paul Mattick

>>2990172
Good, you do that. Whig historicism is the only thing worse than marxist historicism.

>>2990199
Actually, I'm going to take that back. Whig history is annoying as fuck, but it's nowhere near marxist historiography when it comes to blatant misinformation and false portrayal.

>>2990227
The only major idea Marx had in regard to the study of history was to "comprehend all things social in terms of a definite historical epoch."

>>2990122
Marx Never eben thought it "should be," he was just providing context on a historical cycle and how the industrial era was going to make the shifts faster.

It was mostly Engels that made it into a political system.

>>2990261
You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

I'm going to explain marxian historiography to the best of my ability when I return from walking my dog.

>>2990319
>historiography
I meant "historicism". I mess that up once in a while.

>>2990319
>You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
If you actually understood what dialectical materialism is then you'd realize i'm correct. He asserts the primacy of the mode of production in determining society

>>2990330
>If you actually understood what dialectical materialism is then you'd realize i'm correct. He asserts the primacy of the mode of production in determining society
Not primacy, he holds it the sole factor. The mode of production, which forms the basis of the society, is that which determines the superstructure - culture, ideology, law etc. But you ignore the entire rest of his teachings regarding history. The mode of production is that which creates classes that are inherently locked in conflict. According to marxist historicism, it is that supernational class conflict that drives history on a dialectical basis and causes all the changes in societies. As another class replaces the dominant class, the ideology of the new dominant class becomes the dominant ideology of the society (he connected ideologies to classes and connected marxian historicism to hegelian historicism by conflating the change of ideology with the self-development of the hegelian Idea). The final dominant class, the proleteriat which bears the ideology of communism, would take power once the material condition allowed it, but not until it became aware of itself (until it became a class-for-itself), which is what the bourgeoise with its ideologies attempts to prevent. At that point communism would come.

Do you see why
>The only major idea Marx had in regard to the study of history was to "comprehend all things social in terms of a definite historical epoch."
was a retarded thing to say? And why "has communism ever been implemented in a developed nation, as Marx predicted" was even worse? It would not be "implemented", the entire world would develop itself to that level when the material conditions allowed it and the proleteriat became a class-for-itself.

>>2990488
And yes, I'll say it again, marxian historiography is so terrible because it has to bend and misrepresent so many things until the story fits into marxian historicism that it's laughable. And don't get me started on the conflict theory in sociology. Marx was the worst bloody thing that happened to socialism.

>>2990488
>The mode of production, which forms the basis of the society, is that which determines the superstructure - culture, ideology, law etc.
Also, this is correct in the sense that the mode of production creates classes, whose relation (class self-awareness, class conflict) determines these things, as I have expanded on later on. Basically, historic materialism posits that the mode of production determines the class situation, which determines the superstructure of a society and drives history.

>>2990488
Engels outright denies your interpretation:
>According to the materialist conception of history, the ultimately determining element in history is the production and reproduction of real life. Other than this neither Marx nor I have ever asserted. Hence if somebody twists this into saying that the economic element is the only determining one, he transforms that proposition into a meaningless, abstract, senseless phrase. The economic situation is the basis, but the various elements of the superstructure — political forms of the class struggle and its results, to wit: constitutions established by the victorious class after a successful battle, etc.,
>According to marxist historicism, it is that supernational class conflict that drives history on a dialectical basis and causes all the changes in societies.
That isnt true by your own logic since class struggle would be the superficial form the cloaks the economic motivators.
>And why "has communism ever been implemented in a developed nation, as Marx predicted" was even worse?
im not OP and my first quote was from Karl Korsch.

>>2990521
>That isnt true by your own logic since class struggle would be the superficial form the cloaks the economic motivators.
You might want to check
>>2990508

That Engels quote is literally all I've been claiming. That the class relations are, in marxian historicis, that which drives history. What actual part of what I've said does this quote contradict?

>im not OP and my first quote was from Karl Korsch
Good, I've been starting from the presumption of you not knowing shite because I thought you were OP.

>>2990564
>(You)Not primacy, he holds it the sole factor.
Engels says it's not the sole factor and that it's not economic determinism.

>>2990587
>Engels says it's not the sole factor and that it's not economic determinism.
I never conflated economic determinism with historic materialism, economic determinism is a classical liberal schtick. This may or may not be a confusion in terms, as I have not been researching Marx in English. I was using "mode of production" to refer to production relations. Because production relations are, in marxism, that which creates classes and locks them in conflict, as I have expanded on in the rest of my posts. Which you seem to ignore.

>>2990621
A literal semantic game at this point based on a case of mistaken identity.

I feel so small when the adults argue

>>2990122
It's impossible to get off the ground because the centralization required to seize that much to redistribute (it ain't gonna happen voluntarily) means no checks against the temptations of corruption and lack of faith in the system as it attempts to get rolled out.

>>2990652
Are you describing yourself? You fixated yourself on a poorly worded part of my post and decided to ignore everything else I have said, with your rebuttal literally repeating what I have said here >>2990508, where I explained what I meant by it before you brought it up, and in the entire rest of my post here >>2990488. What exactly are you arguing against?

>>2990675
That you spazzing out from a quote from Karl Korsch isnt justified since he didnt say anything incorrect. Nothing warranted this massive post storm.

anyone wanting to live in a real gommunism system should join the US army, navy, airforce or coast guard

Yes it has, if you want to know what it was like, cannibalise your children

>>2990716
But what you said was wrong. It was not Marx's only major idea regarding history, not by a longshot. His historicism is a very significant (I would honestly claim it was the most significant by far) part of his works. And the real reason I "spazzed out" was because I thought you were OP, and I'm tired of "marxists" who know nothing about Marx.

It hasn't been implemented on a "First World Late Stage Capitalist" country because Capitalism is not near the end of his lifespan. The capitalism death is a crucial step on Socialists Revolutions, that's why most, if not, all socialists puke that capitalism is dead or some stupid thing they come up with.

Also, most of them have acknowledged their denial of reality, so they appeal to a "possible" future where most people are unemployed because AI, and therefore, Muh Socialism!! Thing is that they, just like Marx, don't take into account how much things would change on the future. If we're talking about 90% of world population as unemployed, means that the classic paradigm we use nowadays won't apply, because the circumstances are going to be different.

Marx theories still prevail today because dudes want them to be important, when there's better explanations out there.

>>2990719
>absolute verticalism
>real gommunism
Are you brain damaged?

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>>2990122
>to be fair it was Marx himself who said that Communism can only be implemented in a developed Capitalist society for it to succeed
Are you starting to see the problem with this? The only place communism can work is in societies so prosperous that nobody wants communism.

>>2990748
Engel's said it was Marx's most important discovery regarding history and that it's comparable to Darwin https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/death/burial.htm
but inb4 muh technological inexactitude

>>"Marx himself who said that Communism can only be implemented in a developed Capitalist society for it to succeed"<<

Marx never said anything of the sort. For Marx, communism was the last stage in a series of six historical stages for which capitalism was a necessary precursor – each stage was necessary for the following historical stage to emerge. Here are Marx's six stages in order:

1. Primitive communism – hunter-gatherer societies (no widespread agriculture)
2. Slave economy – e.g., Egyptian, Greek, Roman societies
3. Feudalism – European Middle Ages
4. Capitalism – modern Industrial Capitalism (Marx's 19th-century Europe)
5. Socialism – Dictatorship of the Proletariat
6. Communism – a stateless, classless and propertyless society

Note: Marx said very little about his last stage of communism. The bulk of his writings were focused on the ins and outs Capitalism.

>>2990760
Why do you keep posting your weeb shit in every thread? It's basically a stamp saying not to take anything you say seriously.

>>2991150
You didn't actually answer the question.

>>2990122
>Has Communism ever been implemented in a First World Late Stage Capitalist country like Marx said it should be?
Czechoslovakia, East Germany. Next question?

>>2991170

No I don't see the problem. Why wouldn't everyone want to live lie a king?

>>2991170
Why bother?

>>2991212
Because what you're saying to people is, "hey, I know you're all living pretty comfortable lives right now, but if you implement my system (which has been shown to fail everytime) you might get a slight increase in quality of life, but you'll probably die of starvation. But don't worry, the only reason it failed all those other times is because they weren't 1st world nations, sure you only have my word on that, but just trust me, all right?"

>>2991150
Kill yourself normie.

>>2991225
Thanks for proving my point

>>2991365
Well since you were arguing against Communism you should've said so from the beginning.

>>2991402
No you dumb weeb. Thanks for proving my point that no one should take what you say seriously.

>>2991212
>Why wouldn't everyone want to live lie a king?
Because society cannot provide for everyone to live like a king.

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>>2991411
You're just making an excuse for not having an argument, aren't you?

>>2990122
He already got proven wrong 20 years ago when it was proven the world was inevitably going to be united under capitalism. There is no way in our age of information and mass production that communism could ever work.

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>>2991429
Mhm. Yeah sure I am.

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>>2991448
>posts weeb shit
So, does this mean I'm supposed to not take you seriously? Now you've got me confused.

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>>2991462
Is this too much information for your tiny capitalist weeb brain to handle sweetie?

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>>2991473
>posting the first google result for "smug anime girl"
Nice

Late Stage Capitalism is a meme prediction with nothing backing it up.

The only work communists seem to want to do is making up excuses and predictions for when it's totally going to happen this time.

>>2991150
That's good though, you can filter him that way

>>2991632
Too late, I've already stopped weebposting. Now he'll have no choice but to reply.

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>>2990122
>I went to college for 8 years , your telling me I can make the same amount of money as a fast food worker!?

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>>2990122
>Has Communism ever been implemented in a First World Late Stage Capitalist country like Marx said it should be?

America

>>2991705
the New Deal saved capitalism

>>2991705
new deal was fascist bro, borrowed from hitler and Mussolini

>>2991765
Eh, this is half-true, but not for the reason people think it is. It certainly didn't work (in fact it extended the Depression), nor did it pull the nation out of the Depression, but by putting on the illusion of improvement it did keep the people from turning to more desperate measures like Communism. The real question is, had FDR not implement the New Deal, would the economy have been fixed fast enough for the population not to revolt?

>>2990122
>to be fair it was Marx himself who said that Communism can only be implemented in a developed Capitalist society for it to succeed, which possessed the advanced infrastructure that could be provided only by late Capitalism to support it.

Marx literally never said this.

He never used the term "late Capitalism" once in his writings. That's from Benjamin or Adorno.

Secondly, Marx always said that violent revolution was the only way to change a capitalist society.

Have you seen any violent Communist revolutions in a First world country lately? No you haven't.

>>2991812
My favorite maymay was when they claimed fascism is a symptom of late capitalism which means socialism is right around the corner, then fascism got defeated and replaced with standard form of capitalism again and these commie retards pretend like nothing happened.

Commies are similar to ancaps not because le horseshoe theory, but because they pretty much turned their ideology into a religion where they keep re-interpreting facts until they adhere to their theory, rather than correctly dismissing the model as horseshit like a real scientist would.

>>2991858
the scariest part is these fucks don't care if millions die again

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>>2991858
>fascism is a symptom of late capitalism
not necessarily "late capitalism", but yes, it arose to stop socialist revolution in Italy and Germany and smash the working class, in order to restore profitability to capital

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>>2991890
You're forgetting that the working class like fascism as well, heck, Hitler raised workers wages and lowered unemployment.

>>2991890
Marxists to this day keep arguing whether call it "fascism" or "late stage capitalism" and this line of thinking was widespread among Marxists in the 20s, 30s and 40. I think this is the reason why they keep calling everyone right of Lenin a fascist, so their apocalyptic prophecies would come true.

>smash the working class
Commies were never represented by the working class, it's always spearheaded by spoiled bourgeoise ideologues from middle and upper class families.

>>2991909
no, they don't. the working class voted for the KPD or SPD in Germany, not the NSDAP fascism is a middle class movement. people who feel squeezed by working class militancy and foreign elites.

>>2991913
>he doesn't know about Strasser and how his pro-worker rhetoric in Prussia ended up securing the region for Hitler

>>2991912
>Commies were never represented by the working class, it's always spearheaded by spoiled bourgeoise ideologues from middle and upper class families.
anti-communists say this a lot. it's just not true. the bolsheviks were strongest in the industrial cities of russia. the german communists thrived in the working class strongholds of berlin and hamburg and fought the lower-middle class brownshirts. by accusing communists of being "spoiled bourgeoisie ideologues", it attacks the independence of the working class and demeans their autonomy.

>>2991913
>KPD
That party was never relevant outside of street thuggery and political assassinations. They got over 15% only once literally ever, meanwhile Hitler won 44% of the vote when he got to power.

>>2991929
>the bolsheviks were strongest in the industrial cities of russia.
Exactly, and 90% of Russian proletariat didn't live in cities, brainlet.

>>2991929
>brownshirts
>middle class
Oh fuck off. Commies weren't popular almost anywhere outside of Berlin, in rural Prussia where all the poorest people lived nobody cared for communism.

>>2991909
>the working class like fascism
Hardly. The Socialist promises most Fascist governments made were never implemented after they took power. In the isolated case you proposed in Germany the German people (included the Working class) mainly liked Nazis because of the political promises they made, believing that it would strengthen the nation as a whole and thus improve their own living situation (lol). 10% increase in wages and low unemployment is nice cherrypicking but let's not forget how much the Nazis also forced every worker's union in the country to disband, as well as rationed consumer goods, never delivering on their promise to provide every German family with the everyday goods they needed due to the excessive increase in military spending they underwent in the late 30s.

>>2991938
>street thuggery and political assassinations
That's pretty much all the Nazis did until 1930.
>Hitler won 44% of the vote when he got to
The March 1933 election was in the context of massive repression against the SPD and KPD
The real Nazi vote peaked in July 1932 and actually dipped to 33% in the last free election in November 1932
>>2991942
The proletariat is the industrial working class. The peasantry is different (hence "workers and peasants red army); generally leant towards the SRs

>>2991929
>completely annihilating productive agriculture and industry in Russia to usher in a vanguardist authoritarian single party state

>helping the working class

Wew, tankies really make my marbles jangle.

>>2991971
>That's pretty much all the Nazis did until 1930.
Sturmabteilung was literally created to protect Hitler and other speakers of the party from communist street violence, since the cops didn't give a fuck.

>The real Nazi vote peaked in July 1932 and actually dipped to 33% in the last free election in November 1932
And that's still significantly better than any result the commies ever got.

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>>2991973
Russia was a feudal wasteland before it industrialised under the Bolsheviks. It didn't even have mechanised agriculture, so it wasn't productive either.

>>2991971
>The proletariat is the industrial working class. The peasantry is different
No it isn't.

>In Marxist theory, the proletariat is the social class that does not have ownership of the means of production and whose only means of subsistence is to sell their labor power for a wage or salary.
You don't even understand your own newspeak.

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>>2991982
>Russia was feudal
Why do you lie? Like seriously, what benefits do you actually get from lying on the internet? It's not like the people you manage to fool are going to join the communist party tomorrow. Russia abolished feudalism in the 1860s and was rapidly industrializing before WW1.

>>2991982
It was productive enough to participate in the First World War to defend other slavshits.

Just because they weren't as productive as the industrious German and British Empires, doesn't mean it's okay to appropriate, imprison and genocide the only productive strata of your society.

>>2991980
Right-wing paramilitary groups were more violent than Communist groups. Right-wing terrorism was also much more common.
And the Army and police were more likely to arrest the communists than nationalists.

>>2991980
>Sturmabteilung was literally created to protect Hitler and other speakers of the party from communist street violence, since the cops didn't give a fuck.
The SA was founded in 1920, the RFB in 1924, and the RFB was banned in 1929, whereas the SA wasn't. That time helped the NSDAP take power immensely. The cops/state certainly were not neutral.
>And that's still significantly better than any result the commies ever got.
I don't deny it. But the reality is the NSDAP votes didn't come from the organised working class.

>>2991989
So now it's not just "nazis" but all "right wingers"? Shitfting the goalposts much?

>>2991993
> RFB was banned in 1929, whereas the SA wasn't
Street violence doesn't magically cease if you ban an organization. Banning them in 1929 surely didn't help Horst Wessel in 1930.

>>2991993
>from the organised working class
>organized
It doesn't matter whether they were organized or not. They were still working class.

>>2991986
It wasn't industrialising fast enough. Absolutely nowhere near enough to win a war and it was decades behind the West. The Civil War only set it back further.
>>2991987
>It was productive enough to participate in the First World War to defend other slavshits.
and they got their asses kicked and had mutinies en masse. Different story in WW2, where they actually had industry.
>appropriate, imprison and genocide the only productive strata of your society.
The USSR didn't genocide anyone.

>>2991998
Not him. But that's not really shifting the goalposts. Logically speaking. Nazi paramilitaries would a subset of the Right Wing paramilitaries set

>>2992008
>It wasn't industrialising fast enough.
It had the second highest industrial growth on planet fucking Earth, behind only Japan.

>The Civil War only set it back further.
Yeah, thanks to bolsheviks.

>>2992008
>The USSR didn't genocide anyone.

Fuck off tankie.

>>2992002
The RFB had all their assets seized. Indeed they kept fighting, and even with all those repressions they were still the first target of the NSDAP when they took power, for good reason, they feared them.
>>2992007
Being organised certainly mattered. The working class, through trade unions and other organisations, generally achieves more when it is organised, rather than atomised.

>>2991998
I'm a different guy. Hitler's group wasn't that different from other groups. A lot of them were former freikorps. Most of them later joined the Nazis.

>>2992017
Kulaks weren't people

>>2992012
Lumping the SA together with religious ultra-conservatives and monarchists who launched the Kapp Putsch is incredibly idiotic considering they were ideological enemies. So it's pretty stupid and a sign of being uneducated if we're talking about nazis and someone pulls the general "right winger" card.

>>2992021
They were more human than any jew who ever lived.

>>2992013
>It had the second highest industrial growth on planet fucking Earth, behind only Japan.
and under Stalin it became the fastest.
>Yeah, thanks to bolsheviks.
thanks to bitter tsarists, western intervention to help the whites and disgruntled reactionaries more like.

>>2992017
Who did it genocide?

>>2992018
>they feared them
Nobody feared them, it was just fun to torture and kill commies for all the shit they did for more than a decade.

>>2992028
t. Oleksander Butthurtoslav Lovenazisrylo

>>2992025
You can always lump them with other right wing organizations forming Kampfbund.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kampfbund

>>2992029
>and under Stalin it became the fastest.
Irrelevant, that's not what we were talking about. You claimed Russia was feudal and had no industrialization which is patently false.

>>2992036
t. Schlomo Gassenstein Subhumanowitz

>>2992032
lol, of course. just smashing the working class for fun is certainly what the nazis liked
this is typical fascist dissonance. they targeted the communists because they were the most willing to combat them. they used the same propaganda against the "judeo bolshevik" ussr. simultaneously a strong menace out to destroy them, and a pitifully weak paper tiger. there's a reason they targeted communists first, and not jews or any other undesirables.

>>2992031
How about 6 million Ukrainians?

>>2992045
>commies = working class
Nope, sweetie. Commies shun manual labor thanks to their ethnicity and cultural upbringing.

>>2992031
Poles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD

>>2992045
>they targeted communists
>and not jews
That's the same group of people.

>>2992040
It was still feudal in attitudes and essentially the same backwards agrarian structure remained. And it's industry was irrelevant, it had not developed into a modern industrial capitalist state like Germany, Britain or France.

>>2992057
This is the lulziest piece of backpedaling I've seen in a while.

>>2992031
Crimean Tatars.

>>2992047
The famine was caused by a number of factors, aggravated by kulaks slaughtering close to 100 million of their own livestock, and Ukrainians were not targeted. It affected all of the Western/Central USSR, and Kazakhstan was hit far more per capita than Ukraine. The whole idea of the Holodomor is completely absurd and an antisemitic, anticommunist lie cooked by Goebbels and used for victim status by Ukrainian nationalists.

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>>2992050
>>2992056
Whatever boys. Just remember those "Judeo Bolsheviks" stomped out your precious third reich in the end.

>>2992072
Which explains all the downward spiral since then.

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>>2992069
>The whole idea of the Holodomor is completely absurd and an antisemitic, anticommunist lie cooked by Goebbels

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>>2992074
The GDR was infinitely better than the third reich. Couldn't give a damn about the fascist-infested FRG.

>>2992077
Being occupied by a foreign power makes it better than being a sovereign nation, how exactly? Although I do admit DDR was much better than the BRD.

>>2992082

what are you smoking

>>2992082
the GDR wasn't occupied. It often clashed with Soviet demands, especially Brezhnev with Honecker and Ulbricht. But even if you think it was, I fail to see how "sovereignty" helped the third reich in any way.

>>2992082
>Although I do admit DDR was much better than the BRD
Is this why more than 3 million people left this communist paradise before Ulbricht erected a fucking wall to stop them?

>>2992086

it most certainly was occupied

don't pretend

>>2992085
Well I'm not smoking cock unlike you.

>>2992086
>wasn't occupied
Do you know what the word occupation means?

>>2992088
Doesn't really matter in the long run. DDR was a commie shithole, but it wasn't a place that festered a culture of national self-hate and cuckoldry and imported millions of shitskins like BRD did.

>>2992098

you are indeed smoking, whether it is cock is to be seen

>>2992098
>Do you know what the word occupation means?
The Soviets having a military presence doesn't make it occupied. Lots of countries have military bases in allied countries.

>>2992123
Yeah but they're there on a voluntary basis usually.

>>2990122
>>2990122
>My flawless ideology will work only if it's implemented under very specific conditions, once of which is the degeneration of the current system which I don't know when or if it will arrive

Goddammit you commies are so fucking pathetic. Even Ancaps make more sense nowadays.

>Muh late stage capitalism
What the fuck even is that ?

>>2992137
>What the fuck even is that ?
It means that this time communism will work, we pinky promise.

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>>2992137
I don't think any communist considers their system to be flawless. Aside from ultra-leftists.

>>2990135
Frankfurt school son. Capitalism bought out the Proletariat

>>2992075
Epic counterargument bro

>>2992137
>What the fuck even is that ?
"Late capitalism" is a term used by neo-Marxists to refer to capitalism from about 1945 onwards, with the implication that it is a historically limited stage rather than a permanent one. This period includes the era termed the golden age of capitalism.

>>2991487
Not really, I have Kyoko from Yuru Yuri for that.
You can only have Kirino picture if you have shit taste.

>>2990164
>I respect socialists.
It should be no surprise considering you're a socialist yourself.

>>2991929
>lower middle class Brownshirts
>Brownshirts
>middle class
Oh, fuck off.

>>2990122
dubs

>>2990122
East Germany is probably the closest it's ever come to that.

>>2990760
Prosperous for whom?

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The struggle between labour and capital is not one-sided, it's super naive to say "well, Marxists were wrong, look, higher wages!" and stop analyzing things.
Yeah, capitalism proved to be a much sturdier beast than the early socialists envisioned, but the working class still won many important political battles. Wages didn't increase magically in the 20th century and essential labour rights weren't given out of altruism - in fact, they were concessions negotiated in the face of genuine fear of revolution and the growing threat of Marxism-Leninism. The specter of the October Revolution most definitely helped the bargaining strength of workers in the West. And today, after decades of successful anti-communist propaganda, we are seeing the death of the welfare state and social-democratic ideology - virtually every socdem party is completely neoliberal.
How much longer are you going to let them destroy every avenue of organized labour before you start to consider socialism?

>>2997678
>And today, after decades of successful anti-communist propaganda, we are seeing the death of the welfare state and social-democratic ideology - virtually every socdem party is completely neoliberal.
thank god

>>2991982
They were the world's 4th industrial power.

>>2997685
I hope you mean "thank god, they've revealed their true colours as bourgeois opportunists" ?

>>2990122
>which possessed the advanced infrastructure that could be provided only by late Capitalism to support it.
So communism has to piggy back off the accomplishments of others? Almost like a leech or parasite does to a host.

>>2991929
>it's just not true.
What was Marx then if not a self-hating capitalist Jew?

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Have communists even trying to destroy monarchy of Britain, Sweden, Norway or Denmark?

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>this thread