Liberal Democracy and Equality

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>>2970648
Here are some alternative takes on the meme:

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>>2970648
Also,

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>>2970648

I think the original image is good from a liberal-progressive perspective, and the image on this post is good from a socialist-leftist perspective. I don't really like the other two. I think a better liberal-conservative image would imagine each person as being the same (average) height, so their boxes would not allow the person on the left to see because his box was taken away so the person on the right can sit and still have a good view.

As for the main question, I think that liberal democracy is still the best system that we have and won't be replaced until our moral education advances beyond the need for legal rights and we can achieve a socialist democracy, or until we have the technology for central planning to work better than the market.

>>2970648
>>2970650
>>2970651

Here is a better question, do you guys see yourself as the tall person or the short person?

Because I don't want to see poor white people voting for Trump and then thinking they are the tall people in these images.

>>2970671
>not seeing yourself as the middle person
Snowflakes.

>>2970679

Middle people can still see above the fence in most of these. So they count as 'tall people'.

>>2970671
I think there should be ~10 people of the same height. They are sharing 10 boxes: 2-4 get one each and can see, while all the other boxes go to one guy who sits like a king. The other 5-7 get no boxes and can't see. The ideal world would give everyone each one box so that the only way you couldn't see is if you were sitting.

>>2970648
Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

>>2970895

I bet you spent all day coming up with that old quip.

>>2970908
About two seconds actually, b/c apparently my brain operates at supersonic speed.

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Liberal Democracy is unlikely to go anywhere in name for the foreseeable future, for the same reason that the early Roman Emperors kept pretending like the Republic was still a thing.

What's instead going to happen is the same thing that has been happening, in a general trendline. More and more power will flow into the upper classes, more and more power will flow to international organizations and corporations, democracy will be denied in the name of democracy, and rights will be chipped away more and more in the service of ideology.

This is the likely future. A world that retains the superficial appearance of the modern western world, a cleaned up multiracial multicultural transnational civilization, a walking UN, but which in reality is an oligarchy ruled by business moguls, political elites, and mass media, supported by the shiftless, ignorant, poor masses who continue to support the interests of this oligarchy in the name of cosmopolitanism.

Now a point I want to make very clear is that I am not criticizing either multiracialism, multiculturalism, or internationalism here. I think all those things are trash, but that is not the business of this question or analysis. My point is entirely who is pushing these things, and why. And the people pushing for greater diversity and internationalism, are primarily people who benefit from larger government programs to support more poor, and people who benefit from free trade and cheaper labor. IE big government and big business.

>>2970665

I've started to notice this whole equity thing starting to take off

>>2970671
It's not a matter of whether I see myself as tall or short in this moment. The tallest of all people can become short in an instant. It's a matter of my fear at how far one can fall. All that separates me from the fallen is one unfortunate day at work, and all that separates the fallen from the hungry and homeless is social welfare. That's why I'm a thorough advocate for social welfare. Yes, all kinds, at any cost. For as much as I care about my fellow man, it's a nickel compared to how much I care about myself.

>>2970895
unfortunately this, until a better alternative can be presented I don't see democracy going anywhere

It will continue its decline but it won't be replaced by any sort of totalitarian system. We're probably looking at a future of cyberpunk Singapore-esque society as East Asia (which is capitalist without the liberalism) ascends.

>>2971195

Adding to this: both true dictatorships and true democracies have been declining in number for a while. The future is in kleptocratic hybrid systems along the lines of Russia, Turkey, or Singapore.

>>2970648
>the moral of the story is that short people are to blame for all the ills of the world

WHEN
WILL
THEY
LEARN

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>>2970648
Depends. Democracy is definitely going to stay, but whether they stay "liberal" is the question, especially when things like free speech and freedom of religion get tore down in the name of progress.

>ywn live in a post-scarcity society where everyone has as many fucking boxes as they want

>>2970995
Well said

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>>2970995
>the world
More like the western world, merged with Africa and SW Asia. China is not going to institute multiculturalism or racial diversity. The Koreans would kill if someone told them Seoul would be majority non-Korean. Japan will keep being...Japan, and doing whatever weird shit they've been doing or the last 2000 years.

I think China is waiting for the west to reach a threshold in its terminal decline and to become sufficiently weak. Then the Han are going to colonize Africa for real--I mean hundreds of millions of people moving to Sub-Saharan countries, and taking over. The same is going to happen in Nusantara once the west is too weak to stop them.

Only white Europeans think the world should operate on principles that placate Muslims, and provide Africans with infinite sustaining aid. Those two institutions will spell the death of all civilizations if they go on forever. The remnants of human barbarism have to be eradicated, or they're going to demographically transform the currently nuclear armed states until 85 IQ populations control nuclear arsenals, and destroy the world. The logic of liberalism was constructed in the context of Christian metaphysics. Liberal democracy ends with the death of the west.

>>2970671
Trump won the majority of votes from every income group except those earning under $50,000 per year. Don't necessarily fall for the false memes.

>>2970995
>This is the likely future. A world that retains the superficial appearance of the modern western world, a cleaned up multiracial multicultural transnational civilization, a walking UN, but which in reality is an oligarchy ruled by business moguls, political elites, and mass media, supported by the shiftless, ignorant, poor masses who continue to support the interests of this oligarchy in the name of cosmopolitanism
You made me feel sick, thanks. I hooe I die before the world becomes a grey, brown, cultureless shithole full of ghettoes.

>>2970648
So you're admitting that some people are inherently inferior/short?

>>2970671
>Because I don't want to see poor white people voting for Trump and then thinking they are the tall people in these images.

We are the short people, academics, movie stars, career politicians and journalists are the tall people

>>2971616
Melayu? Orang Indon?

>>2970671
They're all tall people, or rather soon to be tall people who will become millioniares once tax on the rich are removed.

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>>2971768
>Slave morality

>>2970671
>Because I don't want to see poor white people voting for Trump and then thinking they are the tall people in these images.
I voted for Trump because I don't want some fucking condescending NY Times journalist to tell me what my political opinion should be.

>>2971768
The green is due to natural variation and the pareto princple (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle). It's a statistical reality of the universe just like the normal curve.

What the world needs is a new philosophy to replace liberalism's false egalitarianism based on the untenable Christian metaphysics out of which is was originally reasoned. We need a philosophy that starts with material inequality as a ineradicable reality and a good, and then construct a generally compassionate, sustainable, and peaceful system based on the acceptance of that fundamental reality. Liberals are incapable of constructing a liberal response to the reality of (NON contingent) human inequality, because it still refuses to accept it outside of a 'liberation' conception of historical progress. It's actually exciting because the end of history hasn't arrived, and there are still arguments to be made, and new, and better ways of doing things to be conceived.

Remember, genetics is only going to accelerate in the coming years. These things are going to become as undeniable as gravity. Liberalism is modernity reasoned from pre-modern axioms. It has one food in the far past, and one food in the haze of early modernity. It cannot survive a robust late-modern scientific understanding of Man.

>>2970648
Liberal democracy isn't sustainable because capitalism isn't sustainable. There are really no more foreign markets to broach and the capitalist class is becoming smaller yet more powerful.

Social control of industry is most likely inevitable, but I have no idea what it will take for us to get there. I expect that legitimate fascist governments will emerge to protect business interests from socialist revolt, and these horrific autocracies will be propped up by all the friendly Silicon Valley CEOs who champion progressive causes today.

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>>2971787
Is this a real thing or just some pseudo-intellectual bullshit a /pol/itician came up with?

>>2971789
Yeah, I voted for Trump for pretty much entirely non-economic reasons (although out of the two I still think he'd be better for the economy)

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>>2971800
Okay Marx, I seem to remember similar predictions like that being made before and all failing.

>>2970650
That's so retarded

>>2971805
Literally when?

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>>2971812
Pic related

>>2970648
Democracy will end as soon as immigration is consistently voted against. Free speech is already proving problematic.

Crypto fascism backed by a bureaucratic behemoth like China is the ultimate future. Stability at all costs and a system with enough redundancy to withstand purges.

>>2971791
Isn't the liberal solution to inequality creating social safety nets and promoting liberal ideals? Social security, food stamps, homeless shelters, socialized medicine, free education, etc.

Seems its largely kept the US from going total medieval. The nordic countries have even stronger social safety nets and they're going strong.

So it seems like liberal solution would work fine to human inequality.

I'd ask in converse what the conservative solution would be? Remove those safety nets, create class divisions, racial divisions, gender divisions? Doesn't sound like those would work out. Apartheid have been tried and tested. And it fails.

>>2971805
>What were the Great Depression and Recession?
New Deal and Obama's stimulus is the only reason why capitalism didn't failed then and in 08

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>>2971824
Sure, whatever you say pal.

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>>2971801

The future of the West is undeniably Islam.Demographics are destiny.

Whether China inherents the Earth or not depends on if the west pulls a South Africa and remove it's nukes before surrendering power to it's new rulers.

But yes, OP. Democracy as an experiment is over, because it leads to universal suffrage and that leads to what we have today.

>>2971823
You've left out that the liberal solution also includes the eradication of national distinctions because, after all, we're all equal. Increase diversity from unequal populations exacerbates inequality, necessitating every stronger socialist remedies, promoting ideologies that promote more demographic transformation, necessitating stronger socialist remedies....and so on...

The social safety net in Sweden is being tested by mass low IQ East African migration. They've even had to tap into the Sovereign Wealth Fund, which is essentially a heresy of Nordic socialism, and an admission of the sustainability of the situation.

You can have socialism in a national context, but that called NATIONAL SOCIALISM, and when it's advertised as such, all of the liberals suddenly understand the dark side of their Pollyannish ideas about simple redistribution.

Socialism and the free movement of labor (people), go hand and hand with modern Progressive liberalism. You can't separate them, because to do so is either to admit that individuals are not equal, human populations are not actually equal, and/or socialism only works in a particularistic, or nationalistic context.

>>2971823
I'd ask in converse what the conservative solution would be?

Firstly, you have to understand that Conservatism is just Conservative Liberalism. It's just as irrational, contradictory, and solutionless as Progressive Liberalism. All of it operates on the axiom of human equality. So when you see the liberty conservatives in the west appealing to individualism, and economic freedom, they are doing so at the same time as they are saying things like "it doesn't matter what race the population is, our ideas work with any composition of people", which is demonstrably not true (again, see: Sweden). Conservatism is just the slow, retarded twin of Progressivism, and only succeeds in slowing down Progressive programs, but never stopping them.

cont...

>>2971837
Nonsense.

>demographics
Muslim migrants have more children than Europeans, but it will change in the future. We are not talking about Africa level of fertility rates, but 1.3 vs 2.1.

https://youtu.be/MIdUSqsz0Io
>Peter Zeihan argues that the US will be preeminent for the foreseeable future

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>>2971823
>>2971853
The Solution is anti-globalism, nationalism, and a patchwork of different systems for different peoples that organically align with their respective histories, characters, and circumstances.

Liberalism was an organic outgrowth of Western European civilization, but to other societies with different historical trajectories, it is an clunky foreign ideology that operates on alien religious axioms. I personally don't think the West can be "fixed". It's going to cling to liberalism to the bitter end, or make an early dive into anarchotyranny. The end result in the west is simply going to be 90 IQ, low-productive, socialist states that don't have enough money for much more than subsistence. The Americas and Western Europe are going to be one giant Brazilifornia, while East Asia maintains its demographic integrity and productivity, and inherits the dominant position on the planet as a result.

>>2971866
>nonsense
Christian Lebanon said the same thing a few decades ago. It's a common delusion that the way things are now is they way they will always be. When they stop breeding, then the globalist ideologues will switch to Sub-Saharan migrants. Even if it's not Islam, the transformation will never ever end, there's not point at which it's "enough".

>>2971616
The Chinese are fucking merciless, whatever is left of the West will just watch in horror as the Chinese take over Africa and shit on all the "work" they did in the past century.

At this point, the only way Europe could possibly save itself is through a hard reset, a return to center, a system restore to an earlier date but I doubt that will happen, it appears that many safeguards were set in place to make sure such a thing couldn't happen again

>>2971873
>Christian Lebanon
Things that never happened. Lebanon was never fully Christian, half of the country was Muslim even before WW2.

>The Solution is anti-globalism, nationalism, and a patchwork of different systems for different peoples that organically align with their respective histories, characters, and circumstances.
The solution is creation of authoritarian regimes similar to modern day Russia?

"The future" is pretty broad. and its pointless to even speculate since history seems to be pretty unpredictable. But just for fun:

Some form of Democracy is definitely a mainstay, there's no better system i can think of and i doubt anyone but the most retarded would want to regress.

As the world becomes more educated and inequality is reduced it'll move closer to a direct democracy.

Otherwise if the current trend of wealth inequality continues then we'll have a "democracy" in name but more accurately a plutocracy with two distinct classes of the masses which are "adequately" provided for but kept in a state of permanent dependence on wages and a separate class of wealthy that own the means to produce jobs that pay wages. It'll be a more extreme widespread version of our current situation.

>>2971873
>Even if it's not Islam, the transformation will never ever end, there's not point at which it's "enough".

Why should transformation end? A static society is a stagnant society.

>>2970648
What about Liberal-conservatism, huh?

>>2971893
Not all changes are good

>>2971896
But none the less change is necessary. What you propose is a society that can't effectively change, because it's because it's ruled under the hand of a despotic autocrat that intentionally cuts off foreign influences.

>>2970650
>>2970651
These obvious are more accurate than OP's pic.

>>2971873
A country has never benefited from unchecked nationalism. Its no surprise that times of difficulty always breed extreme nationalism while stable countries have markedly less.

Any form of anti-globalism, nationalism and any similar cry for division is pointless and impossible, diversity is and globalization is inevitable unless you plan to destroy the internet, mass communication and all forms of global travel. Usually such cry's for nationalism are simply racism and xenophobia by another name.

>>2970648
1. liberal police PC state
2. Authoritarian nationalist police state

Peak your poison and enjoy your censorship.

>>2971889
>he solution is creation of authoritarian regimes similar to modern day Russia?
In Russia, yes. Other societies have different populations, and circumstances. Japan is not cosmopolitan by western standards. It's perfectly legal to deny service to a foreigner, just like in the old Jim Crow US South. But people generally don't think of Japan as a barbarous,

>>2971893
Racially "stagnant" Japan became the #2 economy on the planet with only a few rocky volcanic islands as a natural resource. Racially "stagnant" China is going to out-compete the dumbing, browning, west this century.

Why do you equate genetic integrity with stagnation? Surely a societies economic advancement is not intrinsically linked to whether or not it imports low IQ 3rd world migrants? What the hell does that have to do with preventing "stagnation"? Not everything is an economic calculus either.

Did you ever consider that if the status quo of you society is peace and safety, you might want "stagnation" with respect to at least those two areas?

>>2971908
I'd like do hear your definition of "extreme nationalism" and just "nationalism". No such distinction is made in modern liberalism as far as I can tell. There shouldn't even be a word that politicizes nations maintaining their nationhood. Liberals beg the question when they accuse people of essentially being Nazis for seeing trade and immigration as separate issues. The only reason white leftists don't rag on China, Korea, and Japan as much is because of lingering white guilt, and a hesitance to lecture non-whites.

Chinese have a term for people like that: 白左

>>2970665
>>2970648
Your "regressive liberalism/socialism" ideology is the main reason the cultural/racial/sexual conflicts worldwide are become more and more rampant, your "regressive liberalism/socialism" leaders such as Obama are also the main reason ISIS is rising up nowadays. Open your fucking eyes and leave your safespace for once.

>>2971923
>I'd like do hear your definition of "extreme nationalism" and just "nationalism". No such distinction is made in modern liberalism as far as I can tell.
Meant for >>2971908

>>2971789

How did you figure out that Trump being President would stop that? Like, I don't even see how the two even relate.

>>2971923
>Racially "stagnant" Japan became the #2 economy on the planet with only a few rocky volcanic islands as a natural resource. Racially "stagnant" China is going to out-compete the dumbing, browning, west this century.

They only became as such due to extensive foreign influence and both of them have severe internal problems.

>Why do you equate genetic integrity with stagnation?
>muh debunked colonial pseudo-science

Fuck off with your racialist nonsense.

>not everything is an economic calculus either

So long as we are trapped in a material world it is.

And no, I do not want stagnation in regards to those things, because I want my country endeavouring to find new ways to ensure that the continually changing conditions of peace and safety are maintained. Even these are best kept locked in a continual flux, you fucking idiot.

>>2971817
The expansion of Western capitalism into former "socialist" states was a huge boon for the global capitalist economy. It led to a surge of growth that didn't peter out until the mid 2000s

>>2971923
Nationalism, distinct from patriotism demotes a certain extreme feeling of absurd superiority.

But yes, feeling xenophobia and hatred simply because you happened to be born or live in a certain country is wrong and illogical and historically leads to human misery.

>>2971908
>diversity is and globalization is inevitable
Only for Europe, Canada, the USA and Australia...

>>2971789
Or, you know, you can just not read the ny times. lol.

>>2971819
China isn't fascist, it's just authoritarian. Fascism requires mass mobilization of the population and the enshrinement of hierarchy. China has neither.

>>2971873
Lebanon lost its Christian majority because a war broke out and all the Christians with enough money to the US, Brazil, or Mexico. Nothing to do with birthrates.

>>2971789
>voting for Trump will stop other peoples opinions.

Salt isn't magical, anon.

>>2971930
I voted Trump precisely because the cunty besserwisser said I shouldn't.

>>2971923
>It's perfectly legal to deny service to a foreigner, just like in the old Jim Crow US South.
Are you sure about that? I'm sure it's just harder to become Japanese citizen or obtain a visa. There is no racial component to this.

>>2971923
China is practical Brazil tier in its genetic diversity, difference is that its people divide themselves by language rather than appearance.

Han Chinese individuals can pass for Kazakh, Japanese, Cambodian, and Filipino. There's an enormous range of skin colors and facial features within China, yet due to their history this isn't a big deal.

You got any direct evidence that the West is becoming dumber?

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>>2971947

What if cunty besserwisser told you to vote for Trump?

I don't know who "cunty besserwisser" is because I don't read the NYT nor do I get triggered by them.

>>2971943
No it lost its majority when the French annexed Muslim majority reigions to it.

>>2970648
I hope it sticks around, specifically the U.S. system that pits the metropolitan "elite" against the rural hicks so that neither broad group can seize total control. When everyone is a fucking moron, the best you can do is minimize the damage vis forced compromise, not letting one band of retards run roughshod over the others.

>>2971957
>You got any direct evidence that the West is becoming dumber?

this thread? 4chan in general?

But seriously, you cant argue with nationalism or xenophobia. Its something that can only go away with meaningful human contact or good teaching through things like decent literature.

>>2971957
>Han Chinese can pas for Kazakhs/Japanese/Cambodian/Filipino
If you're blind or white (all asians rook arike XD).

Any of these group of people can pretty accurately tell whether or not someone is their ingroup. Unless the Han chinese guy is fluent in those language/customs/culture/etiquete/social norms, its very hard to fool them.

>>2971959
Basically every news outlet hammered their opinion down my throat as the absolute truth. I showed the finger to all of thel. It was sweet watching the squirm like maggots on November 9th.

>Fuck off with your racialist nonsense.
Fuck off with you white universalist nonsense. Enjoy your failed societies. I'll enjoy watching your bubble burst.

>>2971935
>absurd superiority
One can wish to remain distinct without believing one to be superior.

>Xenophobia
Inventing psychometric labels is a cute leftist tactic. Not wanting foreigners to overtake an indigenous population is a fundamental human instinct, not a pathology.

Racism, xenophobia, islamophobia, sexism, they're all just linguistic tricks to pathologize and disarm political position to leftist initiatives.

Would the Native American have been xenophobic for being concerned about the encroachment of whites on their lands? Or are only white the unique genetic threat to foreign populations, while all other peoples are benign diversifier and enrichers of "stagnant" cultures. I have zero sympathy for white people anymore. In response to your perceived history of outward destruction, you've simply turned those impulses inward.

>>2971949
Yes. I suggest you visit. It's a lovely place, just try not to get triggered when you see a sign on a business or a bathhouse that says "Japanese Only".

>>2971957
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289615001221
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/251531226_The_decay_of_Western_civilization_Double_relaxed_Darwinian_Selection

Maybe if enough progressives call it a social construct, the problem will go away.

>>2971972
>I showed the finger to all of thel. It was sweet watching the squirm like maggots on November 9th.

hey dude, I hear ya there. I myself have been having a fun time watching American politics this whole time. Its been pretty funny all things considered.

America loosing influence, respect, and leadership abroad has been a rather somber thing though, that's a tough pill to swallow.

>>2971973
>Enjoy your failed societies
These "failed societies" are currently the most successful.

>>2971080

dude lmao somebody doesn't have money in the family

>>2971888
If the Chinese wanted to conquer Africa they'd have done so by now.

China just wants to be a mini USA with its own corporate empire. The Chinese government is not anywhere near as xenophobic as Japan or Korea and actually accepts substantial numbers of Indian and African workers and students. This will increase in the future as China becomes more developed than the third world.

>>2971963
Lebanon didn't exist until that event. Certain regions of modern-day Lebanon were primarily Christian and remain primarily Christian today. Throughout the 20th century, many Lebanese Christians emigrated to the Americas. Muslims would have done this too, but were both poorer and often encumbered by immigration quotas that Christians didn't deal with.

I should know, my great grandparents moved from Lebanon to Brazil in the 1920s and then to America. If they weren't Catholic, Brazil wouldn't have let them in.

>>2971983
>currently

I guess you have nothing to worry about since you're probably childless, and you'll be dead one day.

>>2971983
The reason for that is NOT because they import third worlders, you dumb cunt.

>>2971970
I'm strictly talking about appearance. The Chinese identity is basically a construction or an imposition. China has the same diversity of phenotype as India, yet 90% of Chinese are part of a single ethnic group.

2200 years of political unity allowed for the Han identity to become universal.

>>2971978
>I don't know what a social construct means

>>2971957
They're all still mongoloid
Their diversity is more akin to native ethnic diversity in Europe and India rather than racial diversity 'melting pot' of Brasil or America
You utter dolt

I wish a new European rivalry will spark off based on nationalism stuff so everyone online will stop bitching constantly.

Go on Spain, I know you want to take on Britain for Gibraltar, go block all overland travel and shipments to Gibraltar again. Please?

>>2971992
Under capitalism, if your economies don't grow they collapse. Places like Germany don't give a shit about Syrians, but recognise that more poor workers can boost their GDP and prevent a devastating recession.

Population decline means fewer spenders which makes a depression inevitable.

>>2971999
Mongoloid isn't a genetic categorization. An Indonesian and a Kazakh are enormously distant genetically despite the skull shape meme

>>2971973
>Not wanting foreigners to overtake an indigenous population is a fundamental human instinct
>Racism, xenophobia, islamophobia, sexism, they're all just linguistic tricks to pathologize and disarm political position to leftist initiatives.

Linguistic tricks? All i said was its wrong to hate or mistrust others because of arbitrary labels of nationality or race. That's not "leftist propaganda", its just being a decent person and a necessary part of living with others. Your so high on your own corrosive points of views that anyone who suggests you might just be an unhappy racist is a "leftist"

I dont get you guys, we all choose our paths in life but who the fucks wants to be a garden variety nationalist and racist, the literal scum of the earth?

>>2972006
>more poor workers can boost their GDP and prevent a devastating recession.
the thridird worlders arre proftiitable consumers until the gibs paid by the state run dry. Stockholm has a huge housing bubble precisely because house owners ask for outrageous sums from the local welfare office so that the welfare office can house the illegals.

>>2971978
But that's the problem with general migrant policies. In the UK Nigerians have higher IQ on average than Whites.
I think most people agree that unrestrained mass immigration can be disadvantageous.

>>2972009
So is a Croat and a Spanish
You're not getting it at all do you? you can't compare the native diversity of China with Brasil Hispanic-Amerindian-nigger mix diversity

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>>2971789
Literally you.

>>2972010
>gypsies steal, litter, shit and piss on the streets
>arabs blow up, deal drugs and commit violent attacks in groups against lone individuals
>somalis do robberies and gang up on lone ATM users
>sub-saharans do any combination of above
>all of the above have employment levels below 50% so they don't pull their weight when it comes to welfare even though that's the main point why people support immigration
LOL DON'T BE A RACIST ANYONE CAN BE SWEDISH, BEING SWEDISH ISN'T DETERMINED BY WHERE YOU WERE BORN YOU FUCKING XENOPHOBE

>>2971972

So you voted purely out of 'muh feels'?

You do realize the world doesn't end with the Trump presidency, and a bad republican president is a godsend to the dems once the next election cycle hits?

>>2972037
Yeah, that's me. Problem?

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Honestly, as time goes by and technology gets more and more powerful, it's hard to see human society *not* ending up as a totalitarian shithole where the people with the money, in unison with the people who have political power will just keep everyone in a tight leash.

Nobody really knows what kind of technology is going to be invented in 50-100 years, and it might not be pretty.

>>2972042

Its so obvious you are craving butthurt from people here.

Sorry bro, you can't troll with Trump anymore because people are more concerned with him getting replaced by Pence and what Pence might do. Trump is practically not president anymore as he has lost that much respect and ability to lead anyone.

>I dont get you guys
That's because you conflate the political with the personal. This isn't about the abandonment of human decency. These are observations about society level dynamics, not individual interpersonal relationships. You just want to be "nice", but you don't appreciate that while differences between individuals can be mediated by direct interaction and discussion, not such mechanism exists to mediate differences between groups, except war. That's why large movements of different people, and the occupation of multiple groups in the same space ALWAYS results in volence. It doesn't matter how "nice" you are to any particular person walking down the street.

Diversity + proximity = war.

I suggest reading van Creveld on the subject.

I don't go on this board anymore but I just want to say that this thread has been the most intelligent political debate I've seen on 4chan- not to say all of the opinions are intelligent, but they are expressed much better than /pol/ shitposting. Keep up the good work

>>2970648
No. It's too ineffective.

>>2970648
If you've read the liberal response to things like Brexit and Trump, you can easily see that liberal democracy isn't really stable anymore. Not in the sense that liberalism is going to die, but it's quite clear that a significant amount of liberals are quite willing to sacrifice democracy to prop up liberalism.

>>2972080
>I don't go on this board anymore

Why? /his/ is pretty funny, shitposting and /pol/fugees aside.

>>2972040
>So you voted purely out of 'muh feels
That is 99% of the voters. Will you not critisize a hillary supporter for that?

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>>2972228
Do you have something against fugees?

>>2971789
Well done you utter fucking retard.
I hope you kys before your next post-ironic election.
>>2971791
lol
>>2971853
The free movement of people is now chiefly propagated by the neoliberals, to chip away at labor rights, drive down wages and increase profits.
Of course, eventually a more borderless world is ideal, but no serious socialists endorse it at this time, before shit is sorted.
Most socialists today are working for a more protectionist, isolationist policy.
The problem is ignorants conflate refugees and economic immigrants, and they through some terrible lapse of reason think it's the refugees that are causing the trouble.
Hence you get the doublethink about foreigners simultaneously leeching of benefits AND stealing our jobs.

>>2972263
>Most socialists today are working for a more protectionist, isolationist policy.
"no"
Maybe the old guard hardliners, but the new modern champagne socialist wants exactly the opposite.

>>2971888
I think European politicians would be glad to be absconced from the responsibility of acting as Africa's caretaker, but they will of course sorely miss all the profits from their still ongoing exploitation.
>>2971924
>he unironically thinks Obama's politics are socialist
Maybe you want to leave this board and come back once your lobotomy wears off
>>2971969
Different cultures are nice to visit and see as a tourist, and you can definitely draw inspiration from it. Wishing it to be a part of your own country is a very different thing.
t. Someone who has visited almost every country in Europe, travelled to many US states, Mexico, Brazil, Nigeria, Kenya, South Africa, Thailand, India, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Mainland China, Japan, Iran, Russia, Australia, Turkey and South Korea. While I enjoyed seeing all of the countries, not a single one of them made me feel I would ever want to live anywhere else than in my Norwegian safespace.

>>2972280
The new "modern champagne socialists" are centrist class traitors wearing sheeps clothing, and retards like you take the bait

>>2972263
>Most socialists today are working for a more protectionist, isolationist policy.

Maybe at your young revolutionaries meetings. The Old Left has been dead since the last Soviet period, with only a few fringe thinkers holding on to the dream. The New Left is the morphing of disillusioned socialists, and progressivism. Very few socialists are economically literate today--it's all about culture, and anti-science in the humanities. No one care about historical materialism anymore.

Look, you're not wrong about neoliberalism, but you're making delineations where non actually exist. You can equivocate and debate ideological purity, but there's not coherent case for anything other than leftism broadly speaking (equality = good, hierarchies = bad) has been triumphant in the entire west. Is it orthodox Marxism? No. It's left wing capitalism, what all good socialists would have dismissed as oxymoronic a generation ago, and yet here we are.

>>2972300
>everyone who isn't a communist is a rube

I wish I was 19 again. I used to be a lone genius in a sea of idiots too. It's strange: the older I get, the less often I find I'm the smartest person in the room.

>>2972311
It certainly holds true for my country, I don't know which countries you are referring to specifically.
All of the serious left parties in my tiny Norwegian part of the world are while they don't dare to say it out loud, to various degrees isolationist. Yes, they do want to accept some refugees (not more than we already are today) and give them a dignified life while they wait to return home or be assimilated in the meantime, but they are also all against the EU and its terrible effects on the proletariat.

In the UK also, afaik, even big parts of the Labor party which is hardly deserving of its name these days, were Leavers.

And to say The New Left is anti-science, seems like a non sequitur, but I'd be interested in hearing you expand on that thought?

>>2972326
The older I get and the more money I make, the more left I lean m8. It's unfortunately quite some years since I was 19, But I'm way more radical in my beliefs now then I ever was then, after being in the workforce for close to 15 years and feeling on my body the exploitation of the proletariat.

>>2972327
Not him but the left has serious problems with science when it comes to economics, nuclear power, GMOs, anything related to genetic differences between individuals and the sexes (let's not even talk about populations).
>>2972332
>The older I get and the more money I make, the more left I lean m8
That's the opposite of what typically happens.

>>2971924
I'm on 4chan. Don't you think I've left my safe space?

>>2971787
Your point? Nietche criticed both
Also you are slighlty misrepresentig them as they arent moral codes they way you wrote them

>>2972341
What they are trying to say is that you should leave THEIR save space, they are getting trigered

>>2972327
I'd say they're disinterested in science. I'm simply drawing a distinction between the old Marxist pretension to at least claim that their program was based on a scientific understanding of history and Man. It was flawed, but nevertheless interested in dialectic, materialism, and theory. That's why regimes like the CP of China have been able to adapt their theory to changing circumstances. In the case of China, they've argued that capitalism has to exhaust itself if socialism is to every replace it, thus delaying communism indefinitely, possibly forever. It's hamstrung by the need to reason withing in the context of Marxist theory, but one could argue that's beneficially constrained the potential for destabilizing actions.

As for Norway, it has so far demonstrated itself to be less arrogant and heterodox than Sweden for instance. I don't know enough about the two countries to understand why. If you can't tell by my genial attitude toward the POC, I don't have a generic western conservative attitude towards Marxism, but unlike ideological Marxists, I'm only judging it based on results, not on a belief that it's actually THE correct system. There are obviously contexts in which is can guard against destructive globalist capital interests with minimal drawbacks, but it's important to remember that in its distilled orthodox form, it too has globalist ambitions that have their own horrific consequences.

>while they don't dare to say it out loud
That's the whole point though. It's not the reactionaries that are creating the atmosphere that makes such annunciations unthinkable. Day to day, normal people are not raging against the nation state in the name of global markets. They're doing it in the name of "progress" and universal human brotherhood, which are staples of the left leaning sensibility, and part of the appeal of the promises of Marxism.

What about energy crises?

>>2970995
>And the people pushing for greater diversity and internationalism, are primarily people who benefit from larger government programs to support more poor
Since when have corporations been willing to pay more taxes to provide for welfare?

>>2970995
>an oligarchy ruled by business moguls, political elites, and mass media
This is a nonsense term. Any period in human history could be called this if you look pessimistically enough. You're spewing shit.

>>2971616
>china
>stable enough to colonize half the world
Nigger the US couldn't hold down Iraq. China is on the brink of economic collapse and do you think Japan and India would sit still while China colonizes the 3rd world? There'd be a World War 3 that China would likely lose.

>>2972384
>China is on the brink of economic collapse
China has been on the brink of economic collapse since forever. Still hasn't happened.

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>>2971768
>reality
Pffft, read up on any research of geniuses and you will find natural talent is no guarantee of success

>>2972370
Can and probably will throw a spanner in the works of all of these predictions.

>>2972370
What kind of energy crisis do you think can happen though?

>>2972332
t. Guy who isn't in the highest tax bracket
No one wants over half of what they make to be taken. Then you save what's left and the government takes more out when you invest. Then when you die the government takes half of what you own again.

>>2972384
You're envisioning the old European model where small groups used overwhelming military strength to subdue majority native populations. Chinese will simply do what they did in Tibet, and are doing in Xinjiang. They can move tens of millions of rural Chinese in a demographic takeover. They have around half a billion rural Chinese that are transitioning to urban life. Not all of them will be able to inhabit Chinese cities. Some will remain farmers, others could move oversees and out-compete locals in the East Indies, and Africa. Don't assume China's interest in Africa is only to extract natural resources. They don't need to violently conquer anyone. They need only accommodations for mass immigration. They're normal low-trust ethnocentric culture will take care of the rest.

It only seems fantastic to you because you're used to only Europeans having that capacity, and now they're too guilt-ridden from the colonial experience to ever repeat it. European global conquest was quite fantastic too, until it happened.

>>2972465
>European global conquest was quite fantastic too, until it happened.
I'm down for round 2, just to give the chunks what for.

Brb, exporting Mormons to Kenya.

>>2972337
>>2972363
I have to admit there are some stupid misconceptions out there yeah, but I think it's sometimes a bit jumbled together the want for economic and social equality with environmentalism, and then to get some hippie opinions mixed in there, which does no good for neither socialists, environmentalists or any others.
I'll admit the point, but just quickly state that while I used to be hugely in favor of nuclear power, I have gone back a bit on it in later years, as I don't think anymore it's a magic bullet suppressed only by irrational fear. There is lots of conflicting information, but when trying to read up on both sides of the debate's viewpoints, it seems to be hampered a bit by huge up front costs, rigidity of technology in terms of development and projected operating time. And there is still the issue of waste management. In danger of sounding like a techno-optimist, I'd rather use gas as a temporary solution and give Thorium plants at least 10 more years of research.
As for GMOs, that's again a whole discussion unto itself, but I am a supporter of open source GMO, free of patents and extraordinarily high profits. While trying to keep the precautionary principle in mind, with regards to keeping diversity up enough to make ourselves too vulnerable to new diseases threatening to wipe out entire countries farm produce.
I'd like to keep this thread free of further discussion on those subjects, and would like to make a new thread for it instead. It's a good topic for discussion, and admittedly one of the real problems for the left.

>>2972423
I am though, at least I think so.
Afaik the highest tax bracket in Norway these days tops out at just over $80k, and I make well over $100k.
I'd have no problems paying half of that in taxes, the more money I make, the smaller percentage of that I need to live extremely comfortable.

>>2972683
I checked now, and the highest tax bracket kicks in at 909k Norwegian kroner, or about $107k meaning my last $10k is taxed at the highest tax bracket.
I pay an effective tax of around 34%, which I really don't think is too high.

>>2972683
That's fine in the context of the Norwegian ethno-state. If outsiders with a universalist dogma against socialist systems want to destabilized YOUR country's application of Nordic socialiism, and create discord for the sake of global markets, then by all mean, fight them. The world isn't Norway though. And the people of the world are not all Norwegians. In defending your system, don't make the mistake of also projecting your on successes onto other societies. That's what Sweden has done in its arrogance, and in that arrogance, overestimated the universality of their model.

IMO, Marxian ideologies, for the most part, only fail insofar as they maintain Marxism's universalizing tendencies. Socialism sees to be viable when it is applied in a particularistic rather than with visions of a single global solution. Of course, this is heretical, but then again, I'm not a dogmatic Marxist, or a MarxIST of any kind, so I don't give a shit if it pisses of the orthodox dinosaurs.

>>2972678
You might be interested to do some googling about the Chinese Academy of Sciences spearheading and prototyping new liquid salt reactors as a medium to long term energy solution. The Japanese are also in on the action--it's a joint program, that's not a meme PR stunt either. The time horizon is more than 10 years though. I believe the date for the prototype is around 2050. Their budget commitments show that they're dead serious too.

>>2972678
Also, consider the difference between wanting social equality within a nation, and pushing for social equality between nations.

>>2972724
>>2972731

Yeah, I have been following the salt reactors with interest.
And I'm not saying """the Norwegian Model""" can be readily exported to other countries, but neither do I think Norway is a socialist state.
That we need to move away from the neoliberal mindset worldwide tho, seems to be a given.
I've been reading a bit recently about the Protestant ethic and it's anthropocentrism and how it has shaped the Western worldview, and it's a very interesting subject.

I do also think socialism needs to rolled out nation by nation, and not as a universal system. If the US would have stopped fucking with people trying to start them, we might have seen some very interesting experiments in socialism.

>>2972750
>If the US would have stopped fucking with people trying to start them
No doubt, but you could just as rightly say that if the Soviet Union hadn't tried to co-opt every socialist movement for their own geopolitical strategy, we might have seen some interesting experiments too.

>>2972763
That's also a fair point, tho I think they don't have as big a part of the blame. But to be fair I only really know about how they influenced Cuba, if you have other examples of Soviet meddling I'd be interested to hear.

>>2972780
Virtually every socialist movement in the world during the Cold War was a KGB/CIA game of support and subversion. COMINTERN wasn't just a book reading club. Both countries had officers and agents on every corner of the planet funding, training, and otherwise aiding rival political gangs aligned with either the socialist east "free" of oppressive capitalism, or the capitalist west "free" of oppressive socialism.

"The Sword and the Shield" is dense, and I haven't come close to finishing it, but it's a good source. There's less material on the CIA simply because our government never collapsed so there was never a huge dumb of classified documents from the era. Safe the say that wherever the KGB was, the CIA wasn't far behind though.

>>2972813
I'll keep an eye out for it

What I don't get is why so many people have bought into the idea of there being a leftist/Marxist conspiracy in regards to migrants. Its not like Merkel is a leftist. The whole thing feels like excuses more than explanations, of why Europe did that.

Especially France can't blaim the leftists for there being so many Algerians there, like holy shit.

>>2972881
It's because the leftists are now defending the situation in retrospect. In reality, it happened because no one was minding the store. There was never a grand conspiracy in the seats of power to demographically transform the west. Politicians have inherited a situation created by negligence, arrogance, and stupidity. SOME have publicly noted the benefits of the situation to them politically. Blaire admitted that some degree of immigration has been a ploy the shift the electorate.

However, I don't think most politicians even thought London would be majority non-British for instance. The speed and scale of change has been beyond anything that anyone besides the most fringe optimistic ideologue dreamed of 50 years ago. Even Enoch Powell's "inflammatory" Rivers of Blood speech grossly underestimated the reality of what was to come. If he has said, for instance, in the 1960's that by 2015, the majority of the people of London would hail from outside the UK, he would have been dismissed as insane, not merely a racist.

The fact that small numbers of peripheral ideologues have wished for this kind of thing leads many to assume it all must have been orchestrated. The fact that everyone from the far left, to the soft left, to the center-left, to the center-right, now makes apologetics for the situation, and says how wonderful it all is, is simply vexing to some, and again suggests some larger vision at play.

I think the truth is less exciting and more depressing. I think it's all cowardice, and apathy. It's the numb suicidal impulse that comes from giving up.

>>2972881

Because you surround yourself with pop culture media, so you engage and legitimise the """left"""" of the 21st century, which is some liberal special interest groupthink. the modern so-called left are not working class, if they even work at all, and are using left/right to virtue signal. they're all amoral dilettantes.

when i was doing the round of socialist clubs back in the day nobody was pro migration because its understood to be detrimental to working class, viz. it devalues labor. The soviets had strict border control

>>2971938
>Fascism requires mass mobilization of the population and the enshrinement of hierarchy. China has neither.
China doesn't have enshrinement of authority? You know that Confuciusm is still the cornerstone of mainstream Chinese though despite the cultural revolution, right?

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