Brutal and Bitter Wars

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Violencia

>La Violencia did not acquire its name simply because of the number of people it affected; it was the manner in which most of the killings, maimings, and dismemberings were done. Certain death and torture techniques became so commonplace that they were given names—for example, picar para tamal, which involved slowly cutting up a living person's body; or bocachiquiar, where hundreds of small punctures were made until the victim slowly bled to death. Former Senior Director of International Economic Affairs for the United States National Security Council and current President of the Institute for Global Economic Growth, Norman A. Bailey describes the atrocities succinctly: "Ingenious forms of quartering and beheading were invented and given such names as the 'corte de mica', 'corte de corbata' (aka Colombian necktie), and so on. Crucifixions and hangings were commonplace, political 'prisoners' were thrown from airplanes in flight, infants were bayoneted, schoolgirls, some as young as eight years old, were raped en masse, unborn infants were removed by crude Caesarian section and replaced by roosters, ears were cut off, scalps removed, and so on."[9] While scholars, historians, and analysts have all debated the source of this era of unrest, they have yet to formulate a widely accepted explanation for why it escalated to the notable level it did.

>>2923471
Jesus, I had no idea this happened, I heard the same sort of thing from my uncles and dad who fought in the Salvadoran Civil War, for those who were actually fighting the war had devolved into a war of attrition. I remember my dad told me that at one point he had forgotten why he was even fighting, things like "Freedom", "Security" and "Communism" didn't matter, he just wanted to kill every single commie he could find

>>2923466
>I read somewhere that the Romans and Carthaginians shared the same dynamic between them like the US and Japanese did during the Pacific War.

I doubt there's ever going to be a Japanese-American US President who speaks Japanese as his first language, speaks English with a heavy accent, and makes Shintoism the co-official state religion.

>>2923490
Guatemalan history is like that too.

I blame the hacienda system of agriculture for creating a bunch of extremely pissed off peasants.

>>2923506
I was referring to the experiences to the men fighting too

>>2923471
This legitimately sounds like something that should have happened in the middle ages.

Why are South Americans so batshit crazy?

Eastern Front, WWII

>>2923471
>unborn infants were removed by crude Caesarian section and replaced by roosters

What did they mean by this?

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Everyone loves a good Balkan war.

The Bosnian War being one of the grimmest in recent history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_War

>The ethno-religious warfare in Bosnia and Herzegovina led to a widespread implementation of rape as a systematic instrument of war. Estimates of the number of women and girls raped range from 20,000 to 50,000, overwhelmingly Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim). This has been referred to as "Mass rape" and occasionally "Genocidal rape", particularly with regard to the coordinated use of rape as a weapon of war by Serb armed forces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

Of the situation at Potočari

>Some of the executions were carried out at night under arc lights, and industrial bulldozers then pushed the bodies into mass graves. According to evidence collected from Bosniaks by French policeman Jean-René Ruez, some were buried alive; he also heard testimony describing Serb forces killing and torturing refugees at will, streets littered with corpses, people committing suicide to avoid having their noses, lips and ears chopped off, and adults being forced to watch the soldiers kill their children.

>I saw how a young boy of about ten was killed by Serbs in Dutch uniform. This happened in front of my own eyes. The mother sat on the ground and her young son sat beside her. The young boy was placed on his mother's lap. The young boy was killed. His head was cut off. The body remained on the lap of the mother. The Serbian soldier placed the head of the young boy on his knife and showed it to everyone. … I saw how a pregnant woman was slaughtered. There were Serbs who stabbed her in the stomach, cut her open and took two small children out of her stomach and then beat them to death on the ground. I saw this with my own eyes.

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>>2923466

The American Civil War somehow manages to be both the last major conflict with any real kind of traditional chivalry (ex. soldiers cheering on the other side for their bravery) and a tragic prophesy of the horrors the 20th Century would bring.

>>2923543
Every war in Latin America is a holy war, because of the Catholic church and the left wing's opposition to the Catholic church,

>>2923639
Jesus, was anyone in the right in that war? I mean out of all of the factions, who had the most justified cause?

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>>2923717
Slovenia

They were/are geographically (Alps, not Balkans) and linguistically separate from the other Yugos

You could also argue they avoided the Turkish influence

also they didn't behave like fucking savages or resort to ethno-religious fanaticism

>>2923639
serbs are not people

>>2923466
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_War

they broke every rule and custom of the land in this war.

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>>2923466

>>2923639
Jesus Christ that war is the best argument against nationalism because you get this shit

>>2923717
Bosnians, Slovenes.

To a lesser extent Croatians.

>>2923792
>3792▶
>>>2923717 (You)
>Bosnians and Croats

I read about Slovenia but how were the Bosnians and Croats in the right? Was there some kind of enemy they shared?

>>2923603
They took "give her the cock" too literally

>>2923798
they were 'in the right' in so far as they were resisting Serb domination of Yugoslavia and exercising their rights to self-determination, but the government/Milosevic got antsy and sent in the troops. the argument against is that they deliberately destabilized Yugoslavia and caused its downfall, while being inconsiderate of the large Serb minorities in those regions

>>2923798
The TL;DR of the Yugoslav Wars is like this

>after Tito dies, Serbs become the most powerful faction in Yugoslavia
>every other nation in Yugoslavia wants to abandon the country and go their own way
>Serbia is 50% butthurt that they won't have vassals any more, 50% scared that the Serb minorities in the new countries will be persecuted, like during WW2
>Milosevic capitalizes on these fears to become dictator of Serbia in order to go keep Yugoslavia together and fight off the evildoers trying to get their own countries
>invades Croatia with the regular Yugoslavian (read: Serbian) army and ruins that shit
>after the shitshow in Croatia, they decide to give Bosnia the old "autonomous local militia" treatment
>Milosevic calls up a bunch of literal mobsters (the leader was wanted by Interpol for murder and bank robbery before the war) and gives them all the old communist weapons stockpiles, and tells them they're now the Bosnian Serb militia
>Bosnian Serbs basically just murder everyone in their way in the name of more clay for the Serbs
>Clinton is tired of photogenic massacres showing up on CNN and making him look bad, so he bombs the Bosnian Serbs into agreeing to a peace deal
>the KLA, a group in Kosovo, a province of Serbia with a majority Muslim Albanian population, can't help but notice that every gangster with enough guns is getting their own country
>start an insurgency against Serb forces
>Serbs respond by killing a bunch of civilians every time a member of the Serb security forces gets killed
>Clinton is sick of this shit, there are tens of thousands of Kosovars dying out in the mountains because they fled the Serb forces
>bombs Serbia proper until they accept a peace agreement and pull their army out of Kosovo
>Serbs eternally butthurt about losing three wars inside of a decade (four if you count Slovenia)
>Russia butthurt because Serbia is their traditional butt buddy

>>2923817
So the whole thing was basically a shit sandwich from the start? What happened between all the ethnicities of the Balkans to cause these wars?

>>2923848
I forgot a couple of key details

>the Croatians in Bosnia also developed their own paramilitaries and participated in warfare
>the Bosnian Army was composed of Catholic Croatians, Orthodox Serbs, and Muslim Albanians, who all wanted the foreigners to leave their country alone
>Serbia invaded Slovenia, but it's called the ten day war, because it only lasted for ten days, because there are no Serbs in Slovenia and the Serbian invasion of Slovenia was basically just to get their forces into position for the real war in Croatia
>a brief war started in Macedonia between Albanian refugees and the Macedonian government, but the US basically stepped in and told both sides that the US would not tolerate a fifth Yugoslav War, resulting in an armistice before much blood was spilled
>right after the 9/11 attacks, FBI investigators seriously considered the possibility that the attacks were committed by pissed off Albanians, or some other faction from the Balkan Wars, by 9/12 they were sure it was Al Qaeda

>>2923848
>>2923919

Thanks for the effort frendo. Any other details I should know about?

>>2923762
Care to give a few examples? Why the hate between them?

>>2923942
Shit, I forgot a few of the big ones

>a lot of the same guys who traveled to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan and the US in Iraq signed up to fight with the Bosnian and Kosovar forces during the Balkan wars, because muh Muslims being attacked by infidels
>the same type of war tourist retards compose the bulk of IS today
>remove kebab memers will pretend that the Serbs were protecting Europe from the Muslim hordes, despite the fact that Serbia's actions directly resulted in hundreds of thousands of Muslim refugees flooding into Western Europe
>the US bombing of Serbia is one of the main factors that caused the incoming Putin administration in Russia to become opposed to the United States, as Serbia is traditionally a Russian client state (Russia entered WW1 to defend Serbia)
>Bosnia and Kosovo are still clusterfucks in terms of international law and diplomacy, because the peace treaties were designed to end the fighting as quickly as possible by just giving each ethnicity their own lands and separating them physically from one another, the Bosnian Serbs still have their own state within a state in Bosnia
>the KLA is basically just an organized crime family
>in between the war in Bosnia and the war in Kosovo, a large number of Serbian mercenaries got hired to fight in the First Congo War, where they raped and murdered their way through Africa
>Montenegro became independent from Serbia in 2008, apparently just because some politically connected goon wanted to be president for life of his own country
>one of my best friends in middle school and high school was a Serb, I used to spend afternoons playing tennis with him and explaining to him why his country deserved to be bombed
>we're still friends

>>2923980
Shit, I forgot the big one

>Croats did in fact kill hundreds of thousands of Serbs when they were a client state of Nazi Germany during WW2, they just threw Serbs into the same camps as the Jews
>this is the primary reason why Serbs were so scared to let any country with a Serb minority achieve full independence

>>2923471
white brutality + nigger criminality = south americans

>>2923543

You have to understand the buildup to this massive outburst of violence in Colombia. Liberals and Conservatives had been going at each others throats in various civil wars and political schemes throughout the 19th century that divided the people sharply. Towns,villages and families were divided by political allegiance which in turn stood for two very different societal visions.

A good book on the history of Colombia is "The Making of Modern Colombia: A Nation in Spite of Itself" by David Bushnell.

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>>2923466

War of the Triple Alliance comes to mind. Paraguay gets teamed up on by some of the biggest powers in South America and over half of the entire Paraguayan nation dies in the war.

The Northern and Albigensian Crusades were pretty savage as well.

The Armenian Genocide really is disturbing in terms of how much the Ottomans tried to eradicate the Armenians. They would take Armenian children, put them on a boat and take them a few miles off the coast so they could throw them out to drown or sink the boat full of kids. They would round up Armenians and burn them en masse. They would drop Armenians in the middle of the desert to march to their deaths, foreign observers reported back of the endless trails of corpses due to all the death marches. All of this was brought upon by Ottoman setbacks at the hands of Christian nations in the years before.

The Punic Wars. Rome is like WW2 Russia and Carthage is like Germany. The Romans engaged in total war on an industrial level (massive use of manpower, created large Navy in a short time, developed naval corvus, etc.). Hannibal undertook a ridiculous treck expending tremendous resources in a fantastic logistical feat, that may have put Carthage a little over its head; though it was the cavalry advantage caused by a Numidian betrayal that lead to Hannibal's defeat at Zama, so its not as if Hannibal would have lost the war (or at least on the terms that it did, with Rome at its doorstep).

>>2923992
Thanks mane

>>2924192
What did the Carthaginians do to piss of the Romans so much that they built a Navy and raised an army, whom which I assume the Soldiers must've harbored hate for the Carthiginians, so much?

>>2923717

You wont get an easy consensus on this one unless you ask a croat, serb bosniak or slovene. The serbs claim that the massacre cited was fabricated and in fairness the finnish woman who anecdotally reported it to the UN has come out and said as much a decade after the incident.

Those wars were brutal but I encourage you to look at the complicated history and absolutely ignore any ex Yugoslavian input since the rabid whitewashing nationalism isn't in any way exclusively Serbian.

>>2923640
In America we do it all baby! :(

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>>2924459

No shit.

On one hand we've got the Angel of Marye's Heights, Confederate troops at Cold Harbor refusing to shoot and later cheering a color bearer who was advancing toward them totally alone, and General Chamberlain saluting John B. Gordon's men at Appomattox.

On the other hand, we have Bleeding Kansas, Bloody Bill Anderson, John Chivington, Fort Pillow, the destruction of Atlanta and Lawrence, Andersonville and Point Lookout being run like Death Camps.

Truly one of the most fascinating conflicts of all time. A window to both the past and future in all its glory and gore.

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>>2924459

Another point, the Civil Wa both broke America free from the grip of the century-long question of slavery but also left a wound in the American psyche that never completely healed.

It paved the way for America's future while at the same time forever chaining it to the past.

No doubt when the next one eventually occurs, be it a year from now or 100 years from now, people will point to the first Civil War as its origins.

TL;DR the Civil War cast a long shadow in its wake and we're still living in it.

>>2924191
>conquer one of the greatest coties in Christendom
>get btfo by Westerners later
>throw a tantrum and try to exterminate armenians
>deny it

I fucking hate t*rkroaches

>>2923639
How can people consider Serbs "based"?

Thirty years war
>Mass executions of protestants by catholics
>Mass executions of catholics by protestants
>Famines all over Europe
>Not enough gold to pay mercenaries So pillaging, raping is pretty normal
>30% or more of Europe is dead in the end

>>2923466
The Mercenary War seems to rank quite high on the list of bitter and brutal wars.
It was a conflict take took place shortly after the First Punic War when the government of Carthage failed to pay its mercenary soldiers.

>The conduct of the war was barbaric even by the standards of the time. Polybius called it a "truceless war", without any concept of rules of warfare and exceeding all other conflicts in cruelty, ending only with the total annihilation of one of the opponents.The conflict escalated when the mercenary leadership tortured and killed its Carthaginian prisoners and in response the Carthaginians committed similar actions. At the instigation of the mercenary leader Autaritus, Gesco and 700 of his men had their arms and legs broken, their hands cut off, were castrated, and were thrown into a pit to die, according to Polybius. These atrocities were intended to prevent any possibility of a negotiated settlement, contributing to the "most impious war in history."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercenary_War

American War In The Phillipines

>>2923506
Who are you refering to?

We swedes certainly know how to party in Europe:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(history)

>During the wars the Commonwealth lost approximately one third of its population as well as its status as a great power.[7] According to Professor Andrzej Rottermund, manager of the Royal Castle in Warsaw, the destruction of Poland in the deluge was more extensive than the destruction of the country in World War II. As Rottermund claims, Swedish invaders robbed the Commonwealth of its most important riches, and most of the stolen items never returned to Poland.[8] Warsaw, the capital of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, was completely destroyed by the Swedes, and out of a pre-war population of 20,000, only 2,000 remained in the city after the war.[9] According to the 2012 Polish estimates, financial losses of Poland are estimated at 4 billion zlotys. Swedish invaders completely destroyed 188 cities and towns, 81 castles, and 136 churches in Poland.

>>2924342
The romans just had a fucked up understanding of warfare. To them it could only end with the subjugation of the enemy no matter how many legions it would cost.

>>2923777
How do their actions reflect nationalism?

>>2924192
Hannibal would have lost anyway because Scipio was better than him in every regard.

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>>2923466
The Pacific War and to a lesser extent the Eastern Front of WWII

>>2924555
Because they were doing it to t*rk spawn

>>2923543
Its central América, not south america. Colombia doesn't count.

>>2925110
>The Pacific War and to a lesser extent the Eastern Front of WWII
>to a lesser extent

Do you really believe the Pacific War was in any way comparable to the savagery of the eastern front?

If so you must either be American and/or completely clueless as to the extent of the extreme hatred and atrocities involved, and should probably go read about it before posting.

>>2925110
This fucker right here: >>2925162

If the soviets had trouble with traversing a place they sometimes used PoW's and water to make a stable ground for their transports.

>>2925162
If you start from the beginning of Japanese expansion, then yes it was definitely comparable. Japanese were pretty brutal in their own right.

>>2924488
>Confederate troops at Cold Harbor refusing to shoot and later cheering a color bearer who was advancing toward them totally alone
Where can I read up on this?

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AYO HOL UP

I hear you be looking for grim and bitter wars full of pointless suffering and hatred?

Then I have the war for you!

Behold the Iran-Iraq war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War

>Since the Iranians suffered from a shortage of heavy weapons but had a large number of devoted volunteer troops, they began using human wave attacks against the Iraqis. Typically, an Iranian assault would commence with poorly trained Basij who would launch the primary human wave assaults to swamp the weakest portions of the Iraqi lines en masse (on some occasions even bodily clearing minefields). This would be followed up by the more experienced Revolutionary Guard infantry, who would breach the weakened Iraqi lines, and followed up by the regular army using mechanized forces, who would maneuver through the breach and attempt to encircle and defeat the enemy.

>Iraq began to focus on using defense in depth to defeat the Iranians. Iraq created multiple static defense lines to bleed the Iranians through sheer size. When faced against large Iranian attack, where human waves would overrun Iraq's entrenched infantry defences, the Iraqis would often retreat, but their static defences would bleed the Iranians and channel them into certain directions, drawing them into a traps or pockets. Afterwards, Iraqi air and artillery attacks would pin the Iranians down, while tanks and mechanised infantry attacks using mobile warfare would push them back. Sometimes, the Iraqis would launch "probing attacks" into the Iranian lines to provoke them into launching their attacks sooner. Chemical weapons were used as well, and were a major source of Iranian infantry casualties.

Cont. in part 2

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>>2925233
Cont.

>I don't have enough room for the quote about the 'War of cities' strategic bombing campaigns that killed tens of thousands of civilians

Meanwhile in Iraq:

>In the summer of 1982, Saddam began a campaign of terror. More than 300 Iraqi Army officers were executed for their failures on the battlefield. In 1983, a major crackdown was launched on the leadership of the Shia community. Ninety members of the al-Hakim family, an influential family of Shia clerics whose leading members were the émigrés Mohammad Baqir al-Hakim and Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, were arrested, and 6 were hanged. The crackdown on Kurds saw 8,000 members of the Barzani clan, whose leader (Massoud Barzani) also led the Kurdistan Democratic Party, summarily executed. From 1983 onwards, a campaign of increasingly brutal repression was started against the Iraqi Kurds, characterised by Israeli historian Efraim Karsh as having "assumed genocidal proportions" by 1988. The al-Anfal Campaign was intended to "pacify" Iraqi Kurdistan permanently.

And in Iran:

>In June 1981, street battles broke out between the Revolutionary Guard and the left-wing Mujaheddin e-Khalq (MEK), continuing for several days and killing hundreds on both sides. In September, more unrest broke out on the streets of Iran as the MEK attempted to seize power. Thousands of left-wing Iranians (many of whom were not associated with the MEK) were shot and hanged by the government. The MEK began an assassination campaign that killed hundreds of regime officials by the fall of 1981. On 28 June 1981, they assassinated the secretary-general of the Islamic Republican Party, Mohammad Beheshti and on 30 August, killed Iran's president, Mohammad-Ali Rajai. The government responded with mass executions of suspected MEK members, a practice that lasted until 1985.

And the best part of all

>Result: Stalemate - Status Quo Ante Bellum

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Cromwellian conquest of Ireland.

>The impact of the war on the Irish population was unquestionably severe, although there is no consensus as to the magnitude of the loss of life. The war resulted in famine, which was worsened by an outbreak of bubonic plague. Estimates of the drop in the Irish population resulting from the Parliamentarian campaign range from 15 to 83 percent.

>. Drogheda was garrisoned by a regiment of 3,000 English Royalist and Irish Confederate soldiers, commanded by Arthur Aston. After a week-long siege, Cromwell's forces breached the walls protecting the town... and the majority of the garrison and Catholic priests were killed. Many civilians also died in the sack. Aston was beaten to death by the Roundheads with his own wooden leg.

>Wexford was the scene of another infamous atrocity, when Parliamentarian troops broke into the town while negotiations for its surrender were ongoing, and sacked it, killing about 2,000 soldiers and 1,500 townspeople and burning much of the town.

>In 1641–42 Irish insurgents in Ulster killed between 4,000 and 12,000 Protestant settlers who had settled on land where the former Catholic owners had been evicted to make way for them.

>[English] tactics included the wholesale burning of crops, forced population movement, and killing of civilians. The policy caused famine throughout the country that was "responsible for the majority of an estimated 600,000 deaths out of a total Irish population of 1,400,000".

>In addition, the whole post-war Cromwellian settlement of Ireland has been characterised by historians such as Mark Levene and Alan Axelrod as ethnic cleansing, in that it sought to remove Irish Catholics from the eastern part of the country, others such as the historical writer Tim Pat Coogan have described the actions of Cromwell and his subordinates as genocide.

>>2923466

>I'd like to know more about the Punic Wars, I read somewhere that the Romans and Carthaginians shared the same dynamic between them like the US and Japanese did during the Pacific War

The first Punic War doesn't seem to have actually been that brutal, and we can infer this because Carthage fought a civil war after the First Punic War, and this war was often simply called "the Truceless War". No accounts of the First Punic War talk about it in such horrific terms.

<The conduct of the war was barbaric even by the standards of the time. Polybius called it a "truceless war", without any concept of rules of warfare and exceeding all other conflicts in cruelty, ending only with the total annihilation of one of the opponents.The conflict escalated when the mercenary leadership tortured and killed its Carthaginian prisoners and in response the Carthaginians committed similar actions. At the instigation of the mercenary leader Autaritus, Gesco and 700 of his men had their arms and legs broken, their hands cut off, were castrated, and were thrown into a pit to die, according to Polybius. These atrocities were intended to prevent any possibility of a negotiated settlement, contributing to the "most impious war in history."
After the Battle of "The Saw" Spendius and Autaritus were captured and crucified. Matho was finally captured as well, and executed at Carthage after various tortures inflicted on him by a mob.>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercenary_War#Course_of_the_war

>>2923850
>So the whole thing was basically a shit sandwich from the start?

Yes, the whole notion of "Yugoslavia" was a mistake. Just because a bunch of people speak similar languages doesn't mean they should be lumped into the same country, especially if they practice different religions.

>>2924191
>The Armenian Genocide really is disturbing in terms of how much the Ottomans tried to eradicate the Armenians. They would take Armenian children, put them on a boat and take them a few miles off the coast so they could throw them out to drown or sink the boat full of kids. They would round up Armenians and burn them en masse. They would drop Armenians in the middle of the desert to march to their deaths, foreign observers reported back of the endless trails of corpses due to all the death marches. All of this was brought upon by Ottoman setbacks at the hands of Christian nations in the years before.

Leaving the Turks alive after WWI was a mistake, holy shit.

>>2924342
It all started with Sicily. Oddly enough, Rome and Carthage were originally allies against the Greeks. The whole Mediterranean was fucking weird then.

>>2924588
Some German towns lost up to 3/4 of their population from a combination of war deaths and people fleeing the towns.

>>2924992>>2925003
>>2925011>>2925233
>>2925239
>>2925240


Underrated posts.

>>2925076
If anything Yugoslavia shows the danger of not letting separate nations get their own states.

>>2925100
To be fair, Scipio was one of the greatest generals of all time. Saying Hannibal wasn't as good as Scipio is like saying someone isn't as fast as Usayne Bolt.

1) Soviet war in Afghanistan
2) Civil war in Tajikistan

>>2923640

didnt the germans during the battle of the bulge acknowledge the bravery of the US paratroopers they took POW?they even gave them their chocolate rations.

>>2925304
Possibly. The Germans were far more civil in the Western Front than the Eastern Front.

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>>2925300

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>>2925318

>>2924191
>All of this was brought upon by Ottoman setbacks at the hands of Christian nations in the years before.

These massacres were occurring sometimes in the region since at least the 1840s (against Assyrians, as in WWI).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Badr_Khan

It seems that, if anything, these were made easier by the setbacks to the central government. And I don't think the emirs there fought Europeans by then.

>>2923777
>argument against nationalism

You can be a nationalist and not fucking stab pregnant women and children.

>>2923466
Eastern Front in WW2
Nothing really compares to ferocity and sheer destruction and death in human history

Why do you guys really have to have these sufferboos threads? You guys are cancer. Irl cancer too because I know sufferboos IRL and the only favet of history they care about is when people were dying en masse and...who am I kidding. Any films about any of these wars ?

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>>2925304

Usually they just shot them.

SS troops during the the Battle of the Bulge were supposedly given explicit instructions to treat American POWs extremely harshly, hence why close to 500 of them were murdered in massacres not unlike the kind they had carried out against the Red Army countless times (Malmedy being the largest) and shipped even more off to concentration and forced labor camps where another third were worked to death. If the Germans did treat Americans kindly, it was generally in contravention to orders.

>>2925470
But can one be communist and not steal and rape?

>>2925210

Saw it on TV actually

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pof6EXGFBlQ

This Confederate soldier's memoir might be referring to the same incident however.

https://books.google.com/books?id=1lLtuS6ASV0C&pg=PA223&lpg=PA223&dq=lone+union+color+bearer+cold+harbor&source=bl&ots=tfpyTsyi6a&sig=ri7X7Be-BcFRsNbOaw-yXYMIszw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiWlqLzya7UAhVNy2MKHWv6AkYQ6AEIVTAJ#v=onepage&q=lone%20union%20color%20bearer%20cold%20harbor&f=false

>>2925706
Peiper a gud boi, dindu nuffin

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>>2923717
In the Bosnian war?
No one. The Bosniaks brought it upon themselves. They shot the first bullet, and they are the ones who stopped the pre war negotiations and brought down the Cutileiro plan. Also, their secession was unconstitutional unlike the Slovene and Croat ones.
>bosniaks shoot up a serbian wedding
>serbs refuse Cutileiro plan
>serbs backtrack and everyone signs the Cutileiro plan
>croats slaughter serbs 60
>bosniaks withdraw from the Cutileiro plan
>serbs slaughter bosniaks
>war officially starts
And then you get escalation after escalation.
Sad, how the goal of the secession was to "keep the war out of Bosnia", but resulted in the bloodiest and dirtiest of the wars in the former Yugoslavia.
In the broader dissolution of Yugoslavia?
Slovenia.

>>2923734
I also read that they had the most homogeneous society, so they never went through the whole ethnic tension thing as bad as Bosnia and Serbia did.

>>2923762
Where's this quote from?

>>2926185
Their secession was on the grounds of reform, dropping communism, and decentralization.
Croatia's was on the grounds of "muh 1000 year dream of independence"
Milosevic wanted to be Stalin, he accused every Serbian opposition politician of being a western, nazi, capitalist spy. And literally pushed the meme that the Serbian right wing wants to burn Croatia to the ground, while he only wants to return order to Yugoslavia (btw he also accused federal reformists of wanting to destroy the country)

>>2925239
>Result: Stalemate - Status Quo Ante Bellum

All that death for nothing. Damn

>>2925003
This here.

The Filipinos started an insurgency and may or may have not done some atrocious things to the Soldiers and Marines occupying the country so the US replied with even more brutality. I can't remember the exact details but I remember reading on how after they found a Marine buried up to his neck with a trail of sugar leading from the jungle to his mouth so the ants could eat him inside out, the Marines hopped on boats and went down a winding river that went through most of the country and pretty much removed any villages they found. I think its also the only insurgency the US has ever effectively beaten overseas, just goes to show the consequences and the brutality that goes into winning a war against an insurgency.

>>2925723
no

>>2924191
there is no limit to the turkish brutality in the storyteller's imagination, yet so little evidence for the actuality of the genocide, and almost no evidence for the thousands of stories of rape, pillaging or depravity of the turks against armenians. the armenian genocide is a novel or epic fantasy similar to poetry, where cyclops and man-killing harpies would be mentioned.

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>>2925162
>When we were on the beach, waiting to leave, The Japanese were lobbing some artillery on us, some pretty heavy shells.
>The shells were falling way too close for comfort when we were about to leave that place
>One of the shells hit a DUKW amphibious vehicle and sank it. The guys all got killed
>We had some Japanese Prisoners there on the beach. During this shelling, one of the guys who was standing guard told a Jap, "This is your chance, jump over that fence and get the hell out of here!"
>So the japs did and the guard shot them dead
>Hell, thats nothing. When the Japs were in China, they were throwing babies in the air and catching them with bayonets you know
>Art Pendleton USMC

Among other things, the Marines and Soldiers who fought the Japanese got down to their level pretty fast after Guadalcanal, I don't think many Germans or Russians would boil out each other skulls and send them back home as trophies.

>>2926248

No, they turned them into fertilizer and boner pills instead

>>2925233
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Marshes

>with Iraqi helicopter gunships being deployed to "hunt" the Iranian troops through the swampy land
>Iranians were left with over 40,000 casualties, 20,000 of those KIA
>1,200 Iranians die in one day when confronted with Iraqi defense in depth and mustard gas

Good God,..

>>2926248
>americans really believe that killing some ill equipped and starving japs in some jungle island compares to the Stalingrad or Kursk battles

>>2925233
Iraqis also used electric cables as a kind of booby trap. They basically ran cables through the marshes, or even manmade "lakes", and turned them on when there were enough Iranians running through the water.
Just imagine that. You're in a massive human wave attack stumbling through a marsh and suddenly everyone around you starts convulsing, electricity running through your friends. And when you finally make it through, Iraq just uses their artillery to bombard you with gas.

>>2925110
Just read about stuff like Mamayev Kurgan, the hill that overlooked Stalingrad and saw really fucked up fighting. It's now a tourist destination and yet, bones and shrapnel still gets found after heavy rains.

>>2926325

Mamayev Hill was actually almost completely black for many years after the battle because the shrapnel, wreckage, and powder had poisoned the soil. Snow didn't fall on it either because the ground temperature was raised by all the debris and fires.

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>>2926323
Japs weren't exactly a push over

>late one afternoon a buddy and I returned to the gun pit in the fading light.
>we passed a shallow defilade we hadn't noticed previously. In it were three Marine dead.
>They were lying on stretchers where they had died before their comrades had been forced to withdraw sometime earlier.
>As we moved past the defilade, my buddy groaned "Jesus!" I took a quick glance into the depression and recoiled in revulsion and pity at what I saw
>The bodies were badly decomposed and nearly blackened by exposure. This was to be expected of the dead in the tropics
>But these Marines had been mutilated hideously by the enemy. One man had been decapitated.
>His head lay on his chest; his hands had been severed from the wrists and also lay on his chest near his chin.
>In disbelief I stared at the face as I realized the Japanese had cut off the dead Marine's penis and stuffed it into his mouth
>The corpse next to him was treated similarly. The third had been butchered, chopped up like a carcass torn by some predatory animal
>From that moment on I never felt the lest pity or compassion for them no matter what the circumstances.

To be fair, The Eastern Front was brutal and dehumanizing based off the industrialized scale of death and destruction it brought, the Pacific was a soul crushing and grimy war that brought everyone involved down to the level of savages fighting to the bitter end

>>2926370
>B-but they did mean things to dead bodies!!!

No one cares, burger. Pacific Front was a cakewalk compared to the eastern front.

>>2926370
the Pacific was a soul crushing and grimy war that brought everyone involved down to the level of savages fighting to the bitter end
That is true for the eastern front as well.

>>2923471
>unborn infants were removed by crude Caesarian section and replaced by roosters,

wtf

>>2926370
I'm not saying Pacific War was a cake walk, it wasn't but it perfectly clear that the Allies had the advantage right from the start, so it was basically the matter of clearing up japanese holdouts. Americans had the advantage in manpower, equipment, supplies, air and naval superiority.
Also there were plenty of mutilations in Eastern Front. I remember reading that the reason why German partisan reprisals in the East were so severe and cruel is because they were constantly finding dead German soldiers castrated, their ears, noses and fingers cut off, lying in a ditch naked because of the partisans.
Eastern Front was the same as Pacific, except 10 times the scale.

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>>2926376
>>2926377
I've read books written by men who fought on both fronts (The Forgotten Soldier and With the Old Breed are one of my favorites), I don't care who anyone is, I wouldn't want to be a German
infantryman realizing that there are more Russians running at him than he has ammo on some blasted steppe or a US Marine who hasn't slept in 2 weeks of straight combat in a maggoty foxhole because of Japanese infiltrators and the rain.

>>2926390
poor germs
To think that the original plan was that they will be home by christmas :'(

>>2926410
I know there are a thousand threads on this but why? Did the Germans really have no choice but to invade Russia? It just all seems so self inflicted to more I read about the Eastern Front, did they even stand a chance?

>>2923777
You mean multiculturalism? It seems to end the same way anytime two groups occupy the same land.

>>2926422
first of they really underestimated the russians.
second they really didn't have a choice. Think about it, you just conquered the west and failed to knock britain out of the war. Hitler I think knew that if they waited too long eventually the US will join in the war and attack the west like it happened. Now when this happens Stalin will most certainly join in too. I think he wasn't that stupid in regards that he was running out of time. He needed to act fast so he could capture tremendous amount of resources, oil and manpower to win the war against the west too.

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>>2926449
So Germany took a risk and it didn't pay off huh? Kind of like how the Japanese took a risk pissing off the US and it backfired horribly for everyone

>>2926462
exactly

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>>2926472
Thats terrible, when did the Eastern Front get at its ugliest? I've studied the Pacific Front extensively and, for the war overall, the Japanese occupation of China saw levels of cruelty that rivals medieval Europe, for the US side it had to have been the Battles of Peleliu, Saipan and Okinawa, Okinawa were particularly ugly battles, throw in veteran Marine and Army units that had nothing but hate for the Japanese with the Ryukyuan civilians being drafted for the war effort and WWI tier weather and terrain and you have mind breaking clusterfuck that makes you wonder how anyone left with their sanity.

at one point the Japanese 24th Infantry Division tried to do a counterlanding during the Battle of Okinawa Army units and the Marine units that flanked them, in the span of a little over a 24 hours, 6,000 Japanese soldiers were killed by the 7th and 77th Infantry Division with the help of the 1st Marine Division. By the end of the battle, most of the 24th Infantry Division had been completely annihilated.

Also tell stories of brutality from the Eastern Front, individual infantrymen accounts especially

>>2926370

Both the Pacific and Eastern Front had belligerents whose rage was stoked by genocidal racist rhetoric. Each side viewed the other as subhuman and deserving only of extermination.

The major difference is that the fighting in the Pacific with the exception of the Philipines, Okinawa, and Saipan occurred on military occupied islands where there was no large civilian presence. The Eastern Front on the other hand occurred in the Soviet Union's most heavily populated areas where the Germans were free to rape and murder the civilian populace en masse and vice versa once the Soviets began advancing into Germany.

If the U.S. had been forced to proceed with the planned invasion of Japan and we fought ourselves fighting in the Japanese towns and cities or vice versa (as implausible as that is), it would have gone down to be just as horrible as the Eastern Front. In fact, the Filipino capital of Manilla was just as every bit devastated as Stalingrad was. Perhaps even more so given that all of it occurred in a single month (Stalingrad was destroyed over the course of six).

>>2925005
Septimius Severus, Emperor of Rome and proud Punic.

>>2926523
>when did the Eastern Front get at its ugliest?
Stalingrad, Partisan war in Ukraine and Belarus, Leningrad, take your pick

>>2926549
You know, for being a decisive battle on that front, you really don't hear much about the the Philippines Campaign, I always chalked it up to the Marines being amazing at PR and hogging most of the attention but all the hatred between the Filipino people and the Japanese occupiers came to a head in 1944. As for the US Army units fighting there, it was payback time for most of them.

As for the Eastern Front, I read that the Battle of Kursk was such a bloodbath that it could've been its own war.

>>2926562
What happened during the Siege of Leningrad? I remember reading somewhere that the Finns were involved and some weird shit went down.

>>2926563
You don't hear about it because it didn't matter that much in terms of actually defeating Japan. The island hopping campaign is what did that.

>>2926573
they wanted to starve them out and were basically like "any day now"

>>2925061
That sounds incredibly realistic, not fucked up. Win entirely and destroy their ability to ever be an existential threat, or call an end to it half-assed and then get struck down when the other side eventually finds itself in an advantage over you.

>>2926573
millions of people literally freezing and starving to death and eating each other

>>2926582
>>2926596

So why didn't the Germans push in and finish them off? Was it the cold? Were they already stretched too thin at that point to carry an assault into a city? Was Leningrad important to take in the grand scheme of things?

>>2925723
>But can one be communist and not steal
No.

>>2926600
>So why didn't the Germans push in and finish them off? Was it the cold? Were they already stretched too thin at that point to carry an assault into a city?

The almost a million Soviet soldiers also probably didn't help.

>>2926600
>So why didn't the Germans push in and finish them off?
they didn't want to put in the effort of assaulting a large city like that, so instead opted out of encircling it and starving it to death
>Was it the cold?
during winters the temperature could reach -40 degrees by celsius
>Were they already stretched too thin at that point to carry an assault into a city?
pretty much, all of Hitler's attention was fixed on Moscow and later Stalingrad and Ukraine, so Army Group North got just enough reinforcements to hold the siege.
>Was Leningrad important to take in the grand scheme of things?
Not really, maybe as a moral victory but it had no strategic value that Moscow or Stalingrad had.

>>2926557
wasnt septimus severus black in all seriousness? Considering he was from africa?

>>2926623
Carthaginian would be more like caramel than chocolate.

>>2926623
He was from the area that is now Libya and from looking at all the statues of him, he was most likely a Berber.

Anyone remember those posts about the Congo Wars here? I forgot which thread it was, though. It's been a long time, like more than a year ago.

>>2926622
So did they ever really step foot in the city?

>>2926634
The First or Second Congo War?

>>2926549
To be fair, majority of the damage done to Stalingrad was done by german bombing raids, conducted just before 6th Army advanced into the city proper.
Which also brings another point, germans where doing terror bombings of their own whenever they could do them but where shocked when their enemy nations responded in kind.

>>2926664
Bomber Harris did nothing wrong

>>2926657
Both of them. The guy was also talking about the Rwandan Civil War.

>>2926684
Wait, no I was mistaken. He only talked about the Congo Wars. It's this one: >>671474

>>2926623
...
Are you serious. You know than North Africans are Berbers in the main? And Punics were Lebanese? Blacks were a very little minority, the Garamatas in the Sahara used them as slaves, and some berbers tribes were dark skined but blacks were rare. He would look like a Med, not that different from a roman, greek, punic or whatever. And talking about Africa, it was called because the African province in North Africa, near carhtage if I recall well.

>>2926281
>Fighting took place in waters over 2 meters deep at times. Iraq in response to the attacks ran live electrical cables through the water, electrocuting numerous Iranian troops and then displaying their corpses on state television.[3]

what the fuck

>>2926523
The fighting at Pavlovs House and the already mentioned Mamayev Kurgan are pretty well documented.

>>2925696
Lots and lots.
Hell even persopolous makes mention of the fucked shit that went on in the Iran Iraq war, granted the bulk of it is from the point of view of a girl that gets to escape the war and spend her time being an angsty teen in Europe.
But for all time winner in films of the depravity of man and hopelessness of war has got to be "come and see".
If you have high emotional intelligence it'll fuck with your head for a week.

>>2926174
>muh srpski svat

First of all the secession of the Republic of Bosnia was completely legal, both internally from Yugoslavia as it was a Republic within Bosnia and fell within the same criteria as Croatia and Slovenia and internationally as the secession was monitored (the referendum that is) by various international actors and even before the war started Bosnia had a seat within the UN. Now regarding the first shots fired, you point out to the serb wedding incident which happened after several incidents in which serbs shot at, burned down or siezed various cities in eastern bosnia and even parts of the capital, you cannot justify a war based on a single murder of a politically insignificant person by a simple criminal. The rejection of the Carrington plan was completely reasonable as the dismantling of Bosnian sovereignty was out of the question.

>>2925696
Which one? There's a ton on the Eastern Front and Pacific War, I can't name any Punic War movies off the top of my head

>>2926247
How's life treating you Cenk?

>>2923466
Honestly, the Taiping Revolt is, imo, the most brutal war in history.

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>>2923471
>political 'prisoners' were thrown from airplanes in flight

>>2926889
>Total dead: 20–30 million dead (best estimate)

Jesus anytime the Chinese have some sort of conflict millions of them die

>>2926901
Literally the second deadliest war in history by the mean estimate. The upper estimate has a deathtoll greater than the upper estimate of WWII and more people were executed (not died in battle, just executed) in Guangdong province than died at Kursk. The Taiping revolt was supremely fucked up.

>>2926917
Why though? Why the fuck did this murderfest even start? Was it ethnic differences? Religion? How did millions of chinks get rekt?

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>>2926924
God sired another son

>>2926934
Must've been one charismatic motherfucker if he ended up getting over 30 million Chinese dead and drag a war on for 14 years

>>2926924
All of them at once. Basically the Chinese were sick of the Manchus. Then one Chinese guy, who happens to belong to a weird Chinese amalgamated version of Christianity, fails the civil service exam. He then has a vision that he's supposed to overthrow the Qing and decides that it's the voice of God and he's the brother of Jesus Christ and as such he is the Heavenly King and Emperor of China. Then some random dude also has a vision that he's supposed to help the civil service guy and declares himself the cousin of Christ thus becoming the Heavenly Kings right hand and primary general (despite never been in the military at all). They proceed to romperstomp the Qing for several years. Later on, the cousin of Christ decides he wants to be Emperor so the brother of Christ has him killed. Taiping fall apart due to infighting over who actually is the Heavenly King and intervention by the British and French. Most of the deaths were due to the brutality of fighting. Literally, everyone in the Taiping Tianguo were conscripted. Men, women, children, geriatrics. Fucking everybody.

>>2926924
No ethnic differences, mostly just a combination of anti-Qing discontents who hated the Manchus and the angry masses peasants who suffered from the contemporary chaos and therefore wanted new rulers/dynasty. Those who truly believed in that heterodox religious stuff the Taiping were very much a minority.

If there is a major rebellion in China, it generally becomes a fight to the death over the entire land. Either the government would limp onward after pacifying disorder or they would be completely deposed by rebels.

>>2926949
>No ethnic differences
>who hated the Manchus
Pick one and only one

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>>2926949
>>2926941

>tfw BTFO by /his/ once again

Holy shit, that has to be one of the wildest things I've ever read, so pretty much some dude says he's the brother of Jesus and everyone in China (apparently a lot of them) who hated the current rulers backed him up if it meant getting rid of the Manchus? Goddamn, was this the war where people were volunteering to be eaten by soldiers during a seige?

>>2926949
Scratch the part about ethnic differences, it was a struggle of the badly discredited Qing rulers vs opportunistic ethnicities like the Han. Of course, many Han continued to maintain loyalty to the imperial court during this conflict, so it cannot be fully characterized as an ethnic war.

Paraguayan War

>With an estimated 400,000 deaths, the war was the deadliest and bloodiest in Latin America's history.[7] It particularly devastated Paraguay, which suffered catastrophic losses in population – almost 70% of its adult male population died, according to some counts – and was forced to cede territory to Argentina and Brazil. According to some estimates, Paraguay's pre-war population of 525,000 was reduced to 221,000, of which only 28,000 were men.

>>2926952
Yeah, sorry about that m8

>>2926957
>everyone in China
Not everyone, but quite a few in the Southern provinces as they were most removed from the capital and hated the Manchu the most.

>>2926958
It was mostly Hakkas which is a sub-ethnicity of the Han.

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>>2926959
>Paraguay's pre-war population of 525,000 was reduced to 221,000, of which only 28,000 were men.

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>>2926957
No, that was the An Lushan Rebellion more than a thousand years past. But events like that are not unheard of if wars are severe enough. Some accounts of that battle you mentioned, the battle of Suiyang:

"Yin Ziqi had besieged the city for a long time. The food in the city had run out. The dwellers traded their children to eat and cooked bodies of the dead. Fears were spread and worse situations were expected. At this time, Zhang Xun took his concubine out and killed her in front of his soldiers in order to feed them. He said, "You have been working hard at protecting this city for the country wholeheartedly. Your loyalty is uncompromised despite the long-lasting hunger. Since I can't cut out my own flesh to feed you, how can I keep this woman and just ignore the dangerous situation?" All the soldiers cried, and they did not want to eat. Zhang Xun ordered them to eat the flesh. Afterwards, they caught the women in the city. After the women were run out, they turned to old and young males. 20,000 to 30,000 people were eaten. People always remained loyal."

"After the city was besieged for a long time, at the beginning, the horses were eaten. After horses ran out, they turned to the women, the old, and the young. 30,000 people in total were eaten. People knew their death was close, and nobody rebelled. When the city fell, only 400 people were left."

The defending general of the city, Zhang Xun, was absolutely hardcore and competent. When he finally lost he was asked by the victors:

""I heard that every time you fight, you open your eyelids until they rip, and you bite your teeth until they crack. Why do you do that?" Zhang Xun answered, "I want to eat you traitors alive. The damages to my eyes and teeth are nothing." Yin Ziqi used a dagger to hold open Zhang Xun's mouth, and to his surprise, all but three of Zhang Xun's teeth were indeed cracked. Zhang Xun finally said, "I die for my emperor, so I will die in peace.""

>>2926957
>Holy shit, that has to be one of the wildest things I've ever read
Chinese history, in general, is wild as fuck. Don't forget that the Qing had a literal pirate state in their southern provinces that they could do nothing to stop. When foreign forces tried to stop it, they got BTFO too. It gets better: to get the pirates to fuck off and give the land back, the Qing offered them amnesty which signaled to Europeans that the Qing were weak.

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>>2926623
He was born in modern-day Libya to one Roman parent and one Punic parent. The Punics were a people of mixed Berber and Phoenician origin. He probably looked like a Lebanese/Tunisian or a slightly swarthy Italian. Contemporary busts and paintings of him (like the Severan Tondo) give him typical Mediterranean facial features and an olive/tan/light brown skin tone, plus dark brown eyes and hair.

>>2926900
it's a South American tradition

can't wait to see Maduro take flight

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what about that chinese war where all those people got eaten?

>>2927020
That happens throughout Chinese history but one example is>>2926985

>>2927020
>>2927029
>What about that Chinese war where all those people got eaten?
>Can you specify which one?
Fucking China

>>2926985
This rebellion, lasting 7 years mostly in northern China, is estimated to have depleted anywhere from 13 million (6% of the world population) to 35 million (17% of the world population.
Surprisingly enough, the An Lushan Rebellion is not well-known in today's China for its severity. For example, when I asked a Chinese friend from Shanghai about the war, he had little idea about details of the war itself. Instead, the war for its famous romance and its significant influence on poetry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Guifei
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bai_Juyi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Bai

>>2927048
The collective historical trauma caused by dynastic collapses, famines, and natural disasters is the major reason why Chinese are so obsessed with unity and stability. Cue muh Mandate of Heaven.

>>2926174
Germany started the shit recognising independence of Bosnia. It is very fortunate that this country was treated exactly how it was after ww2. Were it allowed to be just a little bit stronger or more independent it would again become serious pain in ass for all

>>2927048
That's why the Chinese are so anal about MUH STABILITY

>>2926449
Why would Stalin attack Germany together with US

>>2923691
>left wing's opposition to the Catholic church
>Muh dictators dindu nuthin
Get fucked you big faggot. Catholic church backed the left wing movements because of Liberation Theology, which led local governments to start massacring priests and in some places like El Salvador they were effective in supressing the catholic belief in the long run. Now protestant is getting more and more believers every time because they tell people they're free to murder whoever as long as they come to "repent" on sunday.

No one makes rugs on holy friday anymore, gangs also kill whoever is not protestant.

>>2926672
Strategic bombing != tactical bombing
You can move your ass from front line but what can you do if you can be bombed just anywhere thousand kilometres from actual fighting. Harris aimed to destroy civilians and nobody else, it is war crime. He was not hanged just because allies won the war.

>>2924555
Because they are edgelords on an image board trying to out-edge each other in their dislike for Jews,Turks and Muslims in general

>>2923980
>Muslim war tourists went to Bosnia and Kosovo
The big difference being that Bosnia let them in and to this day there's a lot of Arab tourism there; Kosovo didn't take any mujahideen in. Dunno why, maybe they didn't want Milošević's stories about it being a religious war to become true.

>>2927154
>any of them
>good

>>2927081
What possible reason would they not? Germany was a major military threat on their new border and had a huge load of new European land that'd be ripe for the taking if they were fending off the U.S.

Russia had every incentive in the world, from ideology to realpolitik.

>>2926672
He solidified civilian Germany's resolve and did shut all in terms of hurting the military. It was a huge mistake for the allies.

>>2923603
Cock block

>>2928308
>It was a huge mistake for the allies
While it's true that Harris' terror bombing didn't do much, British and American strategic bombing in the Ruhr and Poland did more to damage the German military effort than any thing else.

>>2926848
They couldn't declare independence without 20 representatives of each of the 3 nationalities voting for it.

>>2928341
I think the idea behind Harris tactic was that he knew that the big four engined bombers he had, didn't have accurate enough bombing sights to do precision bombing against german military industry, even the famous Norden sight was accurate in the level of "drop bombs on this general area and level several cityblocks, instead of leveling few dozen cityblocks around the area you are trying to hit."

>>2926248
Taking trophies and killing fleeing PoW's is comparable to weaponised rape, indiscriminate torture and genocide.

>>2926379
It's a bit harsh allright.

Anyone know the metaphoric meaning of it?

>>2926557
I wasn't aware of his punicophilia. For some reason I've always imagined the province of Africa and all the romanized punics as extremely roman in culture. It's probably the destruction of Carthage that have been inflated into cultural genocide in my mind.

>>2927008
I can't help but laugh at his wife's apperance every time I see that family portrait. She just makes it look like some Monty Python-sketch. I half expect to hear Graham Chapman's shrill women-impersonation coming off it every time.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=crIJvcWkVcs

>>2928471
Right. But everyone living in the vicinity of a military factory in Washington understands shit might happen.

Intentionally taking out civilians on a large scale when the guy leading them says that their race will be destroyed if they lose the war just makes everyone line up behind Hitler. Anyone that doubted Hitler didn't anymore.

Just because the planes weren't accurate doesn't mean you should intentionally prove Hitler right in the eyes of the public.

Hitler made the same mistake in the east. Hearts and minds isn't just and ideal, it's practical.

>>2928575
Probably the chicken was nearby during the unlucky event, some stories from the siege of Vukovar tell the same tale, except the Chetnik put cats in wombs after taking out unborn children.
Metaphore for 'your children and you are animals'

>>2926422
The same reason Napoleon did, continental blockade

>>2927098
Depends on the country.

Seems like the main reason Colombia went up in such a huge fireball is because the Catholic Church backed the Conservative side, which put them in direct opposition to a large number of angry peasants.

But you'd be correct, the Catholic Church also backed left wing movements.

>>2923850
How far back do you want to go? Basically Serbs are on the winning side of WW1 and get to create Yugoslavia, Serbs view it as a just reward and treat it like Greater Serbia. Meanwhile the Slovenes and Croats are unhappy as they had a lot more autonomy under Austria-Hungary and want autonomy and federalisation, unlike the absolute monarchy it became. Basically massive internal political discord including assasination of the king and establishment of a dictatorship, resulting in that everyone got radicalised and long story short it was invaded by the Axis powers who put a hardcore Croatian facist party the Ustase. The Ustatse tried to exterminate the Serbs, they existed before Auschwitz and Treblinka. Bosniaks at the time were just considered muslim Croats, so they collaborated. Serbian royalists Chetniks also got in on the action and commited massacres as well. Communists win in Yugoslavia who basically succeeds in papering over the divisions till the Yugoslav wars happen.
>basically your neighbours in living memory tried to exterminate your ethnic group, ruled over you cruely and they now have invaded/seceded with big pockets of your kind facing their armies

>>2929566
You forgot to mention the fifty years of communism, that had the Belgrade-centered Yugoslavia literally drain Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia of their resources, culture and religions. And if that wasnt enough, they tried to secceed peacefully but then the Serbs sent the (predominantly Serb) YNA to reclaim lost lands

>>2925110

I'm an American, and I while I know the attack on Pearl and shit like Bataan really fueled the US's hatred and desire for victory and vengeance but it pales in comparison to Operation Barbarosa and the Soviet Counter Attack.

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>>2930223
>muh pearl harbor

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>>2930223

>tfw no epic and genocidal struggle for national survival for Americans to rally behind

>>2924191
Fuck Paraguayans, they asked for it.

>>2923640
>soldiers cheering on the other side for their bravery
What did he mean by this?

>>2926557
Well, first they'll have to annex Japan and the wait approx. 200 to 250 years in which Japan is the primary energy source for USA. It isn't impossible.

>>2926941
>They proceed to romperstomp the Qing for several years.
How did they do that if both of them lacked military experience? Did they recruit those with experience, was the Qing military that bad, or was it something else?

>>2931082
I don't actually have an answer for you because I have a cursory knowledge of the Taiping rebellion at best. From my understanding it was all of the above. The Qing military was absolutely atrocious by the 19th century.

>>2926595
Dude look at the wars of the greek states during the rise and fall of Athens. If a city wasn't completely subjugated or destroyed, it would just rise with a shitton of soldiers. Which is why the Spartans wiped Plataea off hellas.

>>2926523
Cannibalism during Leningrad.
the Leningrad Police had to create a special department to combat and record the cannibalism in the city.

some of the after-effects of Order No. 227 also come to mind.

>>2923471
>The results of Salvadoran military training are graphically described in the Jesuit journal America by Daniel Santiago, a Catholic priest working in El Salvador. He tells of a peasant woman who returned home one day to find her three children, her mother and her sister sitting around a table, each with its own decapitated head placed carefully on the table in front of the body, the hands arranged on top "as if each body was stroking its own head."

>The assassins, from the Salvadoran National Guard, had found it hard to keep the head of an 18-month-old baby in place, so they nailed the hands onto it. A large plastic bowl filled with blood was tastefully displayed in the center of the table.

>According to Rev. Santiago, macabre scenes of this kind aren’t uncommon. People are not just killed by death squads in El Salvador-they are decapitated and then their heads are placed on pikes and used to dot the landscape. Men are not just disemboweled by the Salvadoran Treasury Police; their severed genitalia are stuffed into their mouths. Salvadoran women are not just raped by the National Guard; their wombs are cut from their bodies and used to cover their faces. It is not enough to kill children; they are dragged over barbed wire until the flesh falls from their bones, while parents are forced to watch.

>>2925233
It says in the Wiki that the United States supported both Iraq and Iran (Contra Affair). Did the Americans switch sides?

>>2932773
>Did the Americans switch sides?
They were on both sides from the start. It might seem counter-intuitive, but a longer Iraq-Iran War with no clear winner played in the U.S.' favor

>>2932776
How did it benefit the United States? By having Sadam Hussein in power to check on Iran?

>>2932804
It bled Iran, helped fund anti-Communist efforts in Central and South America (contrary to popular belief, the money didn't just go to the Contras) and kept Iraqi oil cheap for American import in exchange for weapons thus assisting the oil glut. Basically, the longer the Iran-Iraq War lasted, the more the U.S. could benefit from it. The whole thing was pretty normal American realpolitik.

>>2926985
Fuck. I've read about the battle in some book. They mentioned the city population starving but not a single thing on cannibalism. The book wrote that they resorted to eating their horses and tree oak and That's about it.

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>>2932762
>tfw uncle was part of an Anti Communist Death Squad
>tfw most men in my family fought for the government

They did some terrible things, especially the Anit Com one

>>2932762
Jesus Christ
>dragging children over barbed wire
what kind of sadistic beast do you have to be to even get the idea

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>>2934575
The National Guard were feared in the rural area for their ruthlessness, we know of El Mozote because we found the remains but before they did, the massacre was really just a rumor for years. My mother came from the rural part of the country, around where all those isolated Mennonites communities were, and she remembers hearing rumors of other massacres in remote parts of the country. Who knows how many people the National Guard killed, my uncle would give hints every now and then when he'd get drunk but the truth is we may never know

>>2934936
Excuse me, I have close to zero knowledge about that conflict. Your uncle fought in an anticommunist force? What was that all about?

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>>2935204
I'll give you some background first

Pretty much decades of economic troubles and inequality, especially among the indigenous people, led to a bunch of Marxist/Communists coming to the conclusion that El Salvador was ripe for a revolution, the Military led government usually aggravated things up to the point that the war broke out. Most of the arable land, 77%, was owned by a literal 1% and while the government tried to pass policies in the 70s to try and get some of that land to independent farmers (like my grandfather), it was too little too late. The Archbishop of El Salvador tried to advocate for the peasants/Amerindians but eventually caught a bullet from it, no one was sure who did it, some people have come forward saying they did it but there's no way of being sure they did. Most people assume that it was a paramilitary death squad that did the assassination.

Things only got worse as the US started pouring money into the Military led government, eventually a group of soldiers brutally raped and murdered 4 American nuns in 1980. At this point the leadership of the communist forces, called the FMLN, organized themselves and set off the war in 1981. They were armed and supplied by Cuba and the Soviet Union while the Salvadoran government was funded and armed by the US and, strangely enough, Israel.

This sparked off an 11 year war that would end in a stalemate, leaving tens of thousands dead, some estimates put it at 100,000 considering the villages and people who simply disappeared

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>>2935532
As for my uncle, he was drafted to fight in the Army originally but found that he liked military life and volunteered for a new unit specializing in counter-insurgency, they were trained by Americans. The National Guard was its own branch but this unit my uncle volunteered for was part of the Army, so he wasn't part of most of the killings and massacres that took place. Basically his unit would be choppered in to some remote part of El Salvador where commies were spotted making movements and they'd do search and destroy ops like in the Vietnam War. From what my uncle told me, they were actually pretty effective, especially in the region where my mother was from where the farmers and people were sick of the commies taxing them food and whatever money they had as well as kidnapping their sons and daughters. Where his unit would get a bad rap with most people is what would happen when they DID catch the commies, it would usually involve shit like >>2932762 said. Also keep in mind that sometimes they'd find the commies hiding out with their families or with child soldiers, they were all usually killed and made an example of, usually by cartel style mutilations. My dad told me a story my uncle told him, they had found a commie stockpile and headquarters in the Usulutan regon, they killed everyone save some kids that had gone missing in a near by village and burned the place to the ground, they let one man live though. The chopped his hands and tongue off, cauterized the wound by burning it, tied some rope around the dismembered hands and hung them around his neck. They dropped him off at the nearest village for everyone to see, he doesn't know what happened to the man but its safe to say that he probably died in the jungle since the last he saw of him he was practically getting stoned by the village people

>>2923980
>in between the war in Bosnia and the war in Kosovo, a large number of Serbian mercenaries got hired to fight in the First Congo War, where they raped and murdered their way through Africa
What

>>2935532
As I understand it, the government more or less forced the country into civil war by killing anyone and everyone who so much as blinked at them.

>>2935613
The French wanted to help out Mobutu, and the Bosnian Serbs were out of work, so the French paid for a bunch of them to fly over to the Congo to resist the Rwandan invasion.

Of course, a Serb can't tell a Rwandan from a Congolese, so they just wandered around aimlessly raping black people, killing anyone they felt like, and crashing military equipment into each other.

They would be the finest force Mobutu would field during the war.

>>2935636
What makes Serbs so shit? Jesus
>The French wanted to help out Mobutu
Why?

>>2935676
Communism is a hell of a drug.

Especially when the communist government starts using "we're the only thing keeping the fascist Muslim hordes from slaughtering you" as a justification for their existence.

Also, the French suck. Any independent, detailed examination of history will lead the practitioner to dislike the French more than when they started.

They also backed the Hutu government during the Rwandan genocide, for the same reason

>MUH FRANCAFRIQUE

>>2935532
>>2934936
These guys look pretty aesthetic. A shame they were really just murderers.

>>2935626
Essentially yes, while they don't really know who pulled the trigger, it's almost a sure thing that the government ordered Romero's death, also there were already tensions between the government and the natives thanks to a massacre that nearly wiped them out in the 30s and the active suppression of them in the years that followed.

Now that being said, thats how some people see it, other people might tell you that the Government was just killing anyone who was a commie, some people saw them as murderers like >>2935685 pointed out but for others, like my grandfather, they were the only ones between the commies and losing their livelihood and families. Like any other civil war, El Salvador was much more complex than it seemed

>>2935676
They were Serbs, Bosnians and Croats. Plus some Ukrainian pilots.
The problem was they only acted if they got paid, so almost all of their actions were defensive. Which mostly consisted of them placing mines everywhere and rigging their buildings with explosives for when they retreated. Also they didn't speak French or the local language, so there was basically no coordination. So they mostly just drank and harrased the locals during downtime. Which triggered the other mercenary forces, so they we're constantly arguing with them also.
Not sure if this was this conflict, or some other Serb mercs in Africa, but one of their pilots died in an airplane crash. He was drunk and hit a power line or something stupid like that.

>>2935717
If you want complexity, look no further than Yugoslavia in WW II, specifically the fighting taking place in Slovenia. There were so many groups, all with different agendas, motives and tactics. There are countless stories of families being torn apart when their sons left for or were forcefully conscripted into opposing forces, then other forces coming to fuck with the remaining family.

>>2926901

An Lushan's rebellion in the 7th century killed more people than WW1. India only suffers severe deaths when it's famine but China goes big or goes home in famine as well as disease, natural disaster, war.

I wouldn't look forward in the least to if China falls apart or has a civil war in this century. It'd be nasty as all shit.

>>2935730
Honestly anything involving the Balkans is going to be a soul crushing clusterfuck, just what set all of what happened there off? At what point can we trace back and say "This is where they fucked up"

>>2929278
They were already lining up behind Hitler. He had basically unanimous support, and the gestapo took care of the rest. De-housing worked in the sense that it made life even more shitty, which was almost a moral obligation at that point

>>2935752
The Caucasus are like that too.

>>2935755
It didn't just make life more shitty, it created an enormous economic burden, and made people in other cities want to flee, as the millions of refugees moved on to other cities and told the stories of what had happened

>>2926901
If there was a heatmap of every single death caused by war I wouldn't doubt for a second that China would be glowing white while the rest of the world would be a mild blue.

>>2934363
Don't worry,one of my ancestors was an hitman for mohammed ali Pasha in the 18th century.the family elders are certain he's killed atleast 14 people (all innocent) .

>>2923471
>infants were bayoneted
Every fucking time.

Why are they so bayonetable?

>>2923466
There were battles between reinforced companies (say 300 guys) during the Finnish-Russian Winter War where everyone died. That is pretty brutal.

>>2923466
On the Eastern front during WWII there were battles between units of the German Army and the SS. No point to taking prisoners.

>>2935849
>light
>defenceless
>annoying
>"the future" of the enemy
>have a big head
>smaller bayoneting target so you practice precision
Hell, I'll bayonet the fuckers if I had to take position in some ruins for the night and some little shit cries like a lil bitch next to his mom's corpse for all night.

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>>2930885
Glory to the empire!

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>>2924342
They existed.

>>2926573
My friend was from Ukraine. Her grandfather and grandmother were in Leningrad during the seige. Her grandmother was forced to eat shoe leather to survive. Then she met her now husband who was in the red army. He fell for her quickly and snuck her half of his daily ration which helped her and her family a lot even though it was half a cup of water and a bit of bread. After the seige broke he left with his unit and finished out the war. He promised to come back to her and did, when he found her after the war he brought a ring with him and proposed right there. She said yes and they eventually moved to a small costal town on the border of Ukraine and Romania.

A bit of happiness in the suffering.

>>2928575
Her womb is only good for cock maybe?

>>2935532
>>2935589
Thank you for exlaining the abouts of that stuff for me...sounds horrible in every regard

>>2936245
>He promised to come back to her and did, when he found her after the war he brought a ring with him and proposed right there
You just know he took that off of a dead Kraut after raping her to death.

>>2936245
that's kinda heartwarming

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>this thread

Jesus christ man has the balkans ever been a stable place? I feel like at this point it's almost too light or easy to call them a powder keg.

I go into threads like this expecting it to become a balkan thread at least with this one we got some other flavoring like Chinese and ww2 stuff.

I'll add some knowledge i have bout the congo wars

>During the first and second civil conflicts which took place in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), all sides involved in the war actively recruited or conscripted child soldiers, known locally as Kadogos which is a Swahili term meaning "little ones". It has been estimated that the militia led by Thomas Lubanga Dyilo was 30 percent children. In 2011 it was estimated that 30,000 children were still operating with armed groups. The United Nations Organization Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (MONUSCO), released a report in 2013 which stated that between 1 January 2012 and 31 August 2013 up to 1,000 children had been recruited by armed groups, and described the recruitment of child soldiers as "endemic"

>The use of rape was so widespread and routine that the U.N. decided to consider rape to be an instrument, not a side effect, of war. Indeed, a 2011 study from the American Journal of Public Health found that up to 1.8 million women in the Congo have been raped, averaging out to around 48 women per hour.

>Women of all ages have been targets of these rapes; victims have been as young as 18 months old or as old as 80. In some instances, women’s genitalia are mutilated, with their families being forced to watch.

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>>2936573
>You just know he took that off of a dead Kraut after raping her to death.
>Still believing the mass rapes happened

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Korean War & Russian Civil War.

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human depravity really doesn't have an upper limit. reading this shit and taking the scale of some of it into context is almost soul crushing.

>>2923466
World War I was probably the most brutal. To attack was just suicidal on both sides.

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>>2929391
The spark that really set off the keg was this guy's assassination.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Eli%E9cer_Gait%E1n
Massive populist, huge support from the peasantry, due to his advocacy for land reform. Was effectively guaranteed to win the next presidential election (after losing the previous one due to a split Liberal ballot). When he was assassinated, the city of Bogota literally went up in flames.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogotazo
>The murder of Gaitán was followed by widespread confusion. Civilians took to the streets of the centro district sacking public buildings. Among these were the Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Public Health, the offices of the public prosecutor and the Ministry of Communications.[1] The rioting also extended to private property with 157 buildings in the downtown area suffering serious damage, 103 of these were a total loss.

I can go on a bit more about Colombian history and its partisan politics if you want. It certainly makes US partisan politics look like child's play.

>>2925706
The SS units were almost autonomous, there's a really good book called Black Edelweiss, that covers both SS being complete thug goons to PoWs and other times being civil and sharing their caffeine chocolate with guys.

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>China massively depopulated from the wars during the Three Memedoms
>Ruling Jin Dynasty has a retarded emperor (when he heard frogs croaking, he asked, in all seriousness, "Do they croak because they want to, or because the government ordered them to?")
>Everyone around him fighting to use him to get themselves more powerful
>Ensuing civil war results in nothing but the weakening of the emperor's clan and massive uncontrollable uprisings by a flood of opportunistic barbarians
>Northern China has completely collapsed into warring kingdoms ruled by the barbarians mainly from five ethnicities (the Wu Hu)
>Remnants of the Jin flee south
>Han Chinese by the millions fleeing south and west from the slaughterhouse of the Central Plains

>Be Ran Min, of Han ethnicity
>Adopted by the Shi family, rulers of the Kingdom of Later Zhao (belonging to one of the five Wu Hu, the Jie)
>The Shi family abuses Ran Min, making him detest his adopted family and all barbarians
>Somehow manages to seize control of Later Zhao
>"Gas the barbarians, race war nao!"
>Orders every single Wu Hu within his territory to be put to the sword
>Issues edict allowing Han to arbitrarily slaughter barbarians without penalty
>Even Han people with slight hairy features killed without trial
>Exterminates 200,000 in several days
>Declares a new kingdom of Wei and goes on an unstoppable rampage on all surrounding barbarian states
>Defeats 100,000 soldiers from Zhao refugees with only a couple thousand cavalry
>Other barbarian states pee in their pants at this genocidal maniac
>Barbarian coalition sends 300,000 reinforcements, Ran defeats them with only 110,000
>Proceeds to exterminate 400,000 Xiongnu and 320,000 other people
>Defeats 100,000 Tangut and Yue shi soldiers
>With only 2,000 cavalry crushes 70,000 reinforcements

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>>2937963

So much wasted life.

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>>2937963
>At this point, millions of refugees of all kinds are trying to escape from Ran Min to avoid their death
>Every barbarian kingdom in the area except one in the northeast demolished, all singlehandedly due to him
>After doing nothing but incessantly wage war over four years, Wei is mostly depleted
>Goes on a invasion with 10,000 soldiers to raid more supplies
>Murong Ke, of the Xianbei ethnicity, surrounds him with 200,000
>After ten battles, Ran Min's army is eventually shattered
>Finally captured and executed, ending his reputation of invincibility
>Ending score: Over 2 million killed, not including civilians
>Total annihilation of the Jie, Xiongnu largely dead
>All major barbarians diminished to the point that, except the Xianbei, they all are to never again play a significant role Chinese history ever again

>>2938023
*in Chinese history ever again

>>2926549
you cannot compare the Eastern Front with the Pacific Front! In a single Battle in the East there were more casualties and death then US Army had in the whole WW2 (Europe & Pacific)!

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>>2926901
China is listed more than any other location.

>>2938856
>Dungan Revolt

Ah yes...bamboo poles.

>>2926959
At least getting a gf wouldn't be that hard.

Coldsteel: The Hedgeheg: The Chinaman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Xianzhong

>>2937963
>>2938023
With this thread and reading shit like this i'm starting to think the reason china is so populated is just to make up for all the people that died over the course of their wars and rebellions.

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French shells began to hit to the right and left of us, leaving human forms writhing in agony. Our advance came to a stop and after hesitating a few minutes we drew back while the artillery fire followed us, ripping large gashes in our formation. Soon the French drumfire engulfed us, and the air was filled with gas and flying pieces of steel. We automatically mounted the machine gun for action. Then like animals we burrowed into the earth as if trying to find protection deep in its bosom. Something struck my back where I carried my gas mask, but I did not pay attention to it. A steel splinter broke the handle of my spade and another knocked the remains out of my hand. I kept digging with my bare hands, ducking my head every time a shell exploded nearby.

A boy to my side was hit in the arm and cried out for help. I crawled over to him, ripped the sleeves of his coat and shirt open and started to bind the bleeding part. The gas was so thick now I could hardly discern what I was doing. My eyes began to water and I felt as if I would choke. I reached for my gas mask, pulled it out of its container - then noticed to my horror that a splinter had gone through it leaving a large hole.

I had seen death thousands of times, stared it in the face, but never experienced the fear I felt then. Immediately I reverted to the primitive. I felt like an animal cornered by hunters. With the spirit of self-preservation uppermost, my eyes fell upon the boy whose arm I had bandaged. Somehow he had managed to put the gas mask on his head with his one good arm. I leapt at him and in the next moment had ripped the gas mask from his face. With a feeble gesture he tried to wrench it from my grasp, then fell back exhausted.

The last thing I saw before putting on the mask was his pleading eyes.

-Corporal Frederick Miesel, 371st Infantry Regiment

>>2939244
Jesus christ...

>>2938753
I think OP is also referring to the conduct of those who were fighting the war too when he was talking about brutal and bitter, Eastern Front was a war between two massive superpowers with battles so fucking huge they could've been their own wars, only Chinese wars have caused as much desolation. As for the Pacific, it was nowhere near as bloody but the cruelty and hatred between the to belligerents, reading accounts of US GIs, Fillipino insurgents. Japanese Soldiers and, particularly horrible, Chinese resistance fighters and civilians paint a very dehumanizing and cruel picture of what the war in the Pacific was like. Also, its pretty fucked up on how the administrators of the Units got away with experiments that make German vivisection look like childs play

>>2939175
That's partially the reason but the main reason is because of rice. Rice is a very labor intensive crop that requires a whole community to cultivate. People are expected to have lots of children just to grow it. Rice is the staple crop in a large number of Asian countries which is why Asia is the most populated continent. China was the first place in the world to domesticate rice so they've had that massive population before anyone else. As rice was introduced to neighbouring Asian countries, their populations swelled just like China's. On a global scale - after the colonization of the Americas, there was a massive population increase because crops that had been domesticated by Native Americans, such as corn and potatoes, were introduced to the Old World.

>>2923603
I think it's like a "he got cucked by a chicken" meme joke.

>>2938023
>>2937963
>taking Chinese historical figures seriously

lol

>>2941074
>This again
Read >>2916435

>>2941123
You unironically think that thread defends your position?

>>2941127
Then first explain why Sima Qian and other chink historians should not to be trusted in their credentials.

>>2941242
>Although he worked as the Court Astrologer (Chinese: 太史令; Tàishǐ Lìng), later generations refer to him as the Grand Historian (Chinese: 太史公; Tàishǐ Gōng or tai-shih-kung) for his monumental work; a work which in later generations would often only be somewhat tacitly or glancingly acknowledged as an achievement only made possible by his acceptance and endurance of punitive actions against him, including imprisonment, castration, and subjection to servility.

Not like he had to deal with interference or censorship.

>>2930295
jap

>>2926573
people ate the wallpaper glue in their houses to survive

>>2938863
bamboo poles? how much per bundle?....I'm a fellow Hui can you give a good price ;)

>>2941256
>muh censorship
Are you that same guy again from before?
By that logic, every historical record and army size accounts before the 18th century are a farce. Most, if not all, organized societies employed ideological repression at one point or another. His punishment had nothing to do with his work as a history. Sima Qian himself wrote an explanation for his own circumstances. This explanation stated that the importance of his punishment is that it gave him the motivation to create a historical record in order educate future rulers what to do and not to follow the example of incompetents and malevolent rulers.
What ulterior motive is there from forming a conspiracy to falsify army sizes for thousands of years anyways? If they are defeated by inferior numbers (like in the Battle of Salsu against Goguryeo), that falsification would make the defeat all the more humiliating for the Chinese.

>>2941374
>By that logic, every historical record and army size accounts before the 18th century are a farce.

cool fallacy bro, at least Greek historians weren't routinely castrated.

>>2926247
Kill yourself, turkroach

>>2941404
Do you even know what the hell you're talking about? Castration was not routine or protocol for historians. If someone important in the government is deemed guilty of a crime, they are usually imprisoned, exiled, branded, or just killed. Castration is more rare.

>>2941374
Also, you didn't answer the second part of my statement at all? What is so special about China? Why are Roman historians like Josephus, Livy, and Tacitus more trustworthy when they give a record of battles? Please explain what unique aspect of Chinese governments creates a systematic falsification of records.

>>2941515
Oops, responding to >>2941404

>>2941515
China is notorious for its pragmatic approach to history, such as their archeological findings, "ruins" restorations, ancestry/pedigree, etc. Every single new dynasty would try to control the scribes, make sure they're politically correct, in order to justify their authorities.

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>>2941688
What are you, a broken record or something? It's one thing to have a different perspective on historiography. Yes, semantics sometimes have trouble translating between different cultures/civilizations. However, it's a totally different issue when you are questioning the very existence of reliable primary and secondary documents about the history of China. Of course in the post-"Xia" eras, there are questions about some exaggeration of numbers, but not about outright fabrication of history. If what you say is so, you're essentially challenging the fundamental reliability of China's most famous historians throughout the thousands of years and thus academic consensus throughout the world. Not even people say like Korean and Japanese nationalists, who have a stake in critically examining Chinese power, question the core reliability of Imperial Chinese records. They even frequently use them for their own claims despite their relative animosity towards China.
Furthermore, a key notion of the political ideology of every dynasty since the Zhou is that the previous dynasty they took over the one before them which had fallen in virtue due to their own virtue; they themselves were chosen by Heaven due to the failure of the previous one. Historians were to account of the successes and failures of each ruler in order to show that a greatness of virtue earns Heaven's favor, and a weakening earns Heaven's wrath and legitimacy for replacement, noting an observation of a cycle rise and fall thought up of throughout different civilizations. If rulers completely, systematically censored the historians by threat of force to increase their image, why is there a belief that the Mandate of Heaven can be passed? If rulers are said to be perfect and dynastic succession therefore useless due to the eternal goodness of rulers, why isn't the Chinese system geared like the Japanese one with a divine, single dynasty throughout history?

>>2942167
Furthermore, assuming you believe Chinese censuses are relatively reliable and don't believe that most people living in the significantly populated areas of China didn't just disappear into thin air whenever the census official came by in a time of trouble, how do you account for the dramatic losses in population after periods of instability? Famine, natural disasters, and disease are heavy hitters, but it would be absurd to deny the potency of human violence in racking up a large amount of death, especially if the violence is heated and prolonged. Refugees also muddle censuses but they would be accounted for sooner or later after things calm down and they establish a settled household.
Plus, the area of Chinese history which is definitely controversial in regards to the validity of surviving, retrospective accounts (mostly about pre-Shang) is not mentioned in this thread.

Bah, messed up again.
>>2941688
>>2942196

>>2923490
The war against communism was a total war. Thank God we had brave men like him.

>>2923543
>Sounds like something from the Middle Ages
>Mesitos

You answered your own question.

>>2930794
And then most of the germans are dead and the russians have no free press, so nobody will ever get a good idea of what really happened.

>>2939005
This guy has a foot fetish