Was feudalism really as bad as (((they))) claim it was?

>>2913885
depends on time period and area. Some of it was ok and just the way you'd organize things before you have professional administration.
What timeframe/area are you looking into?

File: 1496611199049.png (89KB, 363x475px) Image search: [Google]

89KB, 363x475px

>get a qt peasant wife and have a nice family essentially given to you
>work much less than a modern person because you can stop working when you have what you need, instead of having mr sheckelstein breathing down your neck forcing you to work 80 hours a week
>the medieval, enchanted worldview ensures that your life feels meaningful. you're part of a cosmic drama between good and evil, unlike today where life feels meaningless and hollow, creating a void which most people haven't figured out how to fill

Move to rural China, start a farm, and find out.

>>2913885
>>2913973
sort of true. the average working day, and this is in the Flanders, one of the more economically developed parts of europe in the central middle ages, was no more than 250-60 days considering the constant stream of religious and civic holidays.

>>2913984
days of work a year i mean

>>2913982
Imperial China didn't even have feudalism. The land was owned the by the village.

>>2913998
I think he means current China farms are similar to the way feudal farms were

>>2913885

>literally living in human waste and sewage
>90% of your grain taken as taxes, barely have enough to eat
>local baron gets to fuck your 12 year old daughter
>die of the flu at age 29

sounds like a blast

>>2913984
>365 days in a year
>52 weeks, saturday and sunday off
>52*2 = 104 weekend days off
>365 - 104 = 261
> add in a few weeks of holidays/vacation
>~240 working days a year for modern man
Woah........ we're so bad off these days....

One must consider how most people did not have as large and lofty aspirations, occupying such positions, as most commoners do now in a far more decadent Europe. There certainly was the desire to get ahead of others, present among many people, although I think most peasants would have realized how unlikely it would have been to become even upper middle class in terms of wealth and status.

>>2914011
but thats not how it was.

>>2914008
They are, but with a few extra modern comforts (like medicine, clean water, and slightly larger houses). Regardless it should still give you a good idea of what being a subsistence farmer was like.

>>2914012
most people being lower middle class or poor in even the first world, people have to work way more than you put forward. not to mention the increasing amount of work one has to put in to maintain the same standard of living and expectations to work longer off the books that is becoming the norm if i'm to believe the papers. there's also the fact that your boss can now make you think of work outside the office by texting and emailing you.

>>2913984
you mean 150-160, right?a

>>2913885
It was dull hard work, but it was more boring than miserable

>>2914029
Yes, but now you don't have to do physical labor on the fields

>>2913973
>work much less than a modern person because you can stop working when you have what you need
I see you have literally no clue how feudalism worked.

You are a peasant living in France in the 12th century.
>illiterate
>can't own land since land is the currency by which the King buys loyalty from his vassals and I am not important enough to receive any
>born as a serf on the land of some Count
>most of the work I do is cultivating the Lord's crops for him, backbreaking labor sun up to sun down 9 months out of the year, rest only on holy days
>in return I get a few strips in the fields for my own subsistence
>I can sell any leftovers at the market but its better to save up in case there's a bad harvest so we don't starve, since I have literally no income
>only solace is the Priest says I'll go to paradise when I die so this shitty life of endless toil for bare subsistence doesn't matter

Feudalism at its height was absolute shit for peasants. Things got a little better after the Black Death killed a third of Europe because there was a huge labor shortage which effectively ended Serfdom in England and parts of France, and a few other places in Europe. But peasants were still largely illiterate, couldn't really own land, and had little or no political agency.

File: carlistas.jpg (135KB, 750x689px) Image search: [Google]

135KB, 750x689px

If feudalism was so bad, why so many peasant rebellions against attempts to end it?

>>2913885
>It's a pathetic piece of reactionary shit yearns for a backwards and shitty time to live because they're such a failure in the present episode

>>2914264
Most of them know absolutely nothing about feudalism. They have this ridiculous romanticized few of it they probably got from reading 19th century poetry or something. I think it's a symptom of them never having experienced tyranny. They have no concept of it, they literally cannot imagine a society where they have zero control over their own destiny and are ruled over by a Master who has the power of life and death over them and their family.

>>2914278
>They have no concept of it, they literally cannot imagine a society where they have zero control over their own destiny and are ruled over by a Master who has the power of life and death over them and their family.

>they have no concept of the modern day

What did (((he))) mean by this

>>2913973
And then your organs explode because you didn't know how to wipe your ass and wash yiur hands after

Now thinking that feudalism is shit is a jewish conspiracy too? What isn't?

>>2914278
Yore spouting equally potent enlightenment memes tho, not that i disagree with you:^)

>>2914285
See this is what I'm talking about. You're so fucking deluded you have no clue what tyranny looks like. Your only frame of reference is your own present experience. If you think that what you're experiencing now is as bad as it can get then you're remarkably blessed and hilariously naive. You have no clue what real tyranny is.

>>2914176
Very true mostly playing devils advocate here

>>2914291
>being able to choose what you want to do with your own life is a meme
Yeah we should all going back to being tied to the land and trapped into whatever life we were born to. I have no idea why you people born into liberty desire slavery so much.

>>2914289
has nothing to do with feudalism

>>2913885
No

>>2914278
You had more liberty in feudal Europe than in any modern democracy.

>>2914292
Would rather have a tyranny i can see than one working in the shadows through psycological and political mindgames

>>2914226
>Feudualism
>90% going to the lord

Well, maybe if you lived right before the French Revolution, but otherwise, I don't think that there many lords retarded enough to take more than the extra harvest.

>>2914278
Yes, let's bitch about tyranny while our souls starve. I too enjoy trading satisfaction and structure and leadership and tradition for a shitty ideal of the individual being supreme that ends up in an even worse situation.

>>2914019
Right, the Baron fucking your daughter would be an honor and a chance to earn several years of income if he gifts her a brooch or something. The chances of your shit-covered peasant daughter catching the Baron's eye was like winning the lottery.

>>2914346
>Would rather have a tyranny I can see
Yeah because they totally allowed peasants to hang out at the king's court or sit on church councils and they would have surely understood what was going on.

>>2914409
Well, idealized feudalism means that you spend 6 days a week farming for 9 months a year (not counting religious holidays) and pay about 10-20% of your harvest to your liege lord. The rest is yours to use literally however you want. You can read because church schools, and you can use your farm profits (because burghers have to eat too) to buy some pleasant shit. You're also more-or-less guaranteed a q.t. peasant girl wife.

Not so ideal feudalism means that you work a farm the same amount of time, but you have the same IQ quotient as your pigs because no one teaches the peasantry anything, and you pay cripplingly high taxes to your liege lord. Who is also a total dick. At least when you're drafted into the army (with nothing more than a pitchfork and a helmet), you can steal from other peasants with equally shitty lives.

File: a97AtSr.png (350KB, 899x811px) Image search: [Google]

350KB, 899x811px

>>2913885
>le serfs had it breddy gud meme

There is no end to this memeree.

>>2914449
the peasants were ordinary people anon, and its not like today's ordinary people sit at government meetings or executive boards

>>2914446
>a lover of feudalism calling anyone else a cuck
lel. You dipshits are literally asking for powerful men to put you in your place and structure your life as befits their purposes and you have the gall to call anyone else a cuck?

pathetic

>>2914012
What the fuck is that retarded math why did you multiply the 52 weeks by two

>>2914658


Difference is, Ordinary people today in Modern democracies can.

t.personyouarentreplyingto

>>2914200
That's exactly how farming works.

>>2914517
They did have good. Hell, random peasants in places like Bhutan or Nepal have it pretty good and we an see it with our own eyes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOvQ1iz3TK4

File: 1492902738935.jpg (31KB, 600x600px) Image search: [Google]

31KB, 600x600px

>work for some inbred fuck who did nothing to get where he is
>the grand majority of the fruits of my labor go to said inbred fuck
>can die from basic-ass diseases
>no social mobility to speak of unless I somehow become a priest
>can be drafted to go die in some war that has nothing to do with me
But it's all worth it because I'm guaranteed a (good chance of being ugly) wife I guess?

>>2914226
>serf
>france

Serfs are a term invented by historians which refer specifically to the situation in which Russian peasants found themselves in under the rule of the Tsars.

>>2914517
>All peasants were destitute

Wrong. Depending where you lived, you could see some pretty well-off peasantry.

>>2914698
Although they are technically allowed to, how often does the vast majority of modern society actually try to? Not very often (although more than in a feudal society).

>>2914719
see
>>2914484

>>2914709
This looks comfy as hell. Guaranteed marriage and just enough work to make sure that the crippling malaise of boredom does not set in.

Who needs tvs anyways?

>>2914484
>and pay about 10-20% of your harvest to your liege lord.
Did they pay anything to the church?

>>2914752
In the ideal, the church runs off of donations. In the grimdark, the church has its own, separate tax.

In reality, you would pay to the church if you worked a monastery or bishop's land.

>>2914752
Initially they paid the church with their time, laboring in fields or building cathedrals. It gradually shifted to taxes.

File: 1494230318810.jpg (609KB, 855x1050px) Image search: [Google]

609KB, 855x1050px

>>2914744
>expecting a political system to ever in an ideal fashion
>ever

>>2914797
He's not talking about pure ideology. He's talking about the experiences a serf or peasant could have in the the middle ages. It ranged on a spectrum. Sometimes better or worse. Sometimes in between.

>>2914695
>implying that *I* have argued for feudalism

Keep defending your wage slavery though. Just remember that when you waste your life slaving away for Shekelstein's benefit that it's not cuckoldry because you don't have to call him mi'lord :^)

>>2914797
It's best to list the ideal situation, and the worst possible outcome.

He did both.

>>2914697
1 day per week with 52 weeks per year
>(1[day] / 1[week]) X (52[weeks] / 1[year]) = 1[day] X 52 = 52 days

2 days per week with 52 weeks per year
>(2 / 1) X (52 /1) = 2 X 52 = 104 days

>>2914697
math isn't my strong suit

File: Pieter_Bruegel_the_Elder_-_Peasant_Wedding.jpg (255KB, 1280x885px) Image search: [Google]

255KB, 1280x885px

Look all those starving peasants.

Wouldn't they be happier eating junk food and smoking meth?

They were even ruled by a lord whom everyone know who it was, and could be approached and appealed to. Imagine that! Everyone knows that the way of modernity is to be ruled by unaccountable individuals in secret societies you don't even know exists.

>>2914928
>you don't know they exist
>but somehow you know they rule you

Really buttered my almonds there.

>>2914658
>>2914738
Even if you aren't a congressman or something, there's a lot more transparency over the proceedings AND you have the political and literal literacy necessary to understand what's going on (with a minimum of research maybe, which you have no problem getting thanks to all the resources at your disposal.)

File: snail.jpg (30KB, 500x228px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 500x228px

>>2914928
>This painting proves that feudalism is a-okay and that peasants were living in fine, grand positions!

How brave of those knights to fight the giant snails too!

>>2915013
That is true, but can a common man influence those proceedings any more or less than a peasant could influence his lord's judgments?

>>2915122
Not sure honestly, but I was originally replying to that post:
>>2914346

>>2914928
the netherlands was one of the most well fed regions in europe. it was so urbanized because the region had long been running a surplus in specialized crops were traded for baltic grain.

>>2915132
So noted, I'm just saying that despite a change to power technically coming from the people, not much has changed about the political class, be they lords or senators

File: Pieter_Bruegel_d._Ä._037.jpg (3MB, 3200x2081px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 3200x2081px

>>2914928
You know what it means when a dude spends his life fantasizing about and painting fat people and abundant food?
Either he has a weird fetish or he grew up eating moldy bread.

Also that's a fucking wedding ""feast""

>>2914008
>>2914022

Not remotely.
Don't talk about shit you don't know you have no idea what challenge these people faced since the Mao usurpers.
They were doing much better during the Imperial and Republican rule. It doesn't even fucking compare.

>Subsistance farming
you don't even know what you don't know.

>>2915099
that's a commissioned painting of an actual scene, retard.

>>2914939
Plebeans who thinks hes got it figured all out and society is scaled to his pea brain.
Besides, he's off point, we know very well about these societies and beyond that if you had any idea how policy making and public administration worked you would shut your fucking trap.

>>2915013
>there's a lot more transparency
>he says this when lobbying is a thing

You're a fucking retard.

>>2915217
>that's a commissioned painting of an actual scene
Proof?
Also for the irony:
>Some authors have even suggested that the groom is not even included in the painting. Van der Elst speculated that this could be the depiction of an old Flemish proverb: "There is an old Flemish proverb: 'It is a poor man who is not able to be at his own wedding.'

File: Paolo_Veronese_008 crop.jpg (3MB, 4213x2114px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 4213x2114px

>>2915252
Others who think it's not even meant to be real:

>Some argued that it is a presentation of the mystical Wedding of Cana.[4] Lindsay and Bernard Huppé speculated that the painting was a Christian allegory, symbolizing corruption, depicting the corrupted Church, which was supposed to be the bride of Christ, but the groom has not appeared to claim his corrupt bride.[13]

Incidentally here's another take on the Wedding at Cana, you might notice a few differences.

>>2913885
No, but it wasn't very good either. Living in fear of hell, not being able to leave your crappy village, and living in a society where images and literature are rare sounds, at best, very dull.

File: dance.jpg (154KB, 1111x776px) Image search: [Google]

154KB, 1111x776px

>>2915257
>>2915252
There's thousands of paintings representing medieval and renaissance rural life from that time. Even if you argue that Bruegel was somehow improvising everything and not basing himself on real models.

You're choosing to make your last stand on the most retarded nitpicking imaginable.

>>2914011
This, feudalism is just big fuckery

>>2915283
Maybe stop talking out of your ass if you don't want people to "nitpick" your bullshit?

say what you want about feudalism but it's better than slavery. it was a christian innovation on slavery that eventually lead to our society today. and like >>2914928 says it would be better today if the mass of scum on the streets today were bound to a piece of land somewhere rather than bound to prison and a criminal lifestyle

>>2915302
nice rebuttal.

>>2914292
This is why I quit /pol/ 3 years ago, being shut in what is essentially an echo chamber that makes the world seem evil and horrifying with no real point of reference from actual experience of it. Neckbeards shouldn't talk about things outside of their basement in that respect.

>>2915324
It wasn't meant to be one, dipshit.

>>2915326
>neckbeards
>projecting that hard
>implying that anyone is normal on this japanese softcore animated pornography website

>>2915323
The main reason why people are attracted to feudalism after all this time is this. An actual example in history of a society where everyone has a place and an important role to play. You may not have the riches of capitalism or the total security of communism, but you know that you matter and that you have work to do, which can be considered more important than any sort of materiel wealth/safety net.

>>2913885
Feudalism as a system?

There's less freedom in general, i.e. getting levied to fight on a war that your lord is obliged to provide troops for, even though it's at the behest of an even bigger lord in some other location.
You're pretty well tied down to a piece of land, and your landlord has every right to take a sizeable chunk of your produce. You also don't technically *own* anything, though there's people to whom that's not important.
If your lord wasn't a disinterested cunt, he would at least provide some things so you could get work done, all the necessities are locally available, you live in a small/tight-knit community (I can't think of an example of large-scale feudalism, though I feel like Soviet-style communism had elements), and I'm sure feasts/holidays had fun times
It's a very paternalistic system (imagine being a legal child all your life), but to some it's nice to have those provisions, simple/straightforward lifestyle, and lack of certain responsibilities.

Feudalism as it existed in the Middle Ages?

You have to be ridiculously delusional to think it didn't suck, unless you were the lord, and even then the vast majority of comforts we take for granted are gone in exchange for a higher place in the hierarchy

>>2915350
Yeah except it's basically just wishful thinking by lazy socially-crippled underachievers who believe they would totally work hard and pull themselves up by their bootstraps if someone just put a shovel in their hands and told them where to dig, ignoring the fact that they would run back to their dark and cool basements as soon as they start sweating or feeling the sunburn.
See:
http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2017/04/how_can_there_b.html
For that matter, they could just enroll in the armed forces like so many poor or directionless people have done. Hell, you can even land a comfy high paying office jobs if you have some education. But no, you have to run a few lapses, that's literally torture.

>>2915354
>You're pretty well tied down to a piece of land, and your landlord has every right to take a sizeable chunk of your produce. You also don't technically *own* anything, though there's people to whom that's not important.
Woah, nothing has changed.

Taxes were a joke back then compared to today.

>>2915380
>For that matter, they could just enroll in the armed forces like so many poor or directionless people have done. Hell, you can even land a comfy high paying office jobs if you have some education. But no, you have to run a few lapses, that's literally torture.
Spoken like someone who has never worked a day in his life.

>>2915389
except you have more freedom to move somewhere else these days

taxes varied. it could be less than today, or it could be ancien regime tax farming where it's like 90%

>>2915395
I'm quite happy with my job thank you. The point is that they should fuck off and join the army if they long for physical effort and utopian servitude instead of regretting that they were born too late to experience eating cabbage soup every night and dying of the plague-du-jour.

>>2915389
Not him but you also aren't liable to be executed for leaving your home county or selling your melons in the wrong part of town in modern society. But yeah I see your point. Political freedom is nothing to shake a stick at but in terms of economic freedom the basic terms haven't changed overmuch for poor people.

>>2915397
>move somewhere else these days
Where it's basically the same thing. Or worse

> or it could be ancien regime tax farming where it's like 90%
Stop reading Warhammer lore books.

>>2915410
Have you even been in the army?

>>2914346
>working in the shadows through psycological and political mindga

Do you hear yourself, son?
You're basically admitting you're so free you have to invent villains to keep yourself from getting bored.

>>2914408
>waaaah i HATE all this stupid individialism where's my lord waaah gibbe servitude

For fucks sake, Shirley, man up and change your diaper.

>>2915412
>Not him but you also aren't liable to be executed for leaving your home county or selling your melons in the wrong part of town in modern society.
>What are regulations
Same thing, different context.

The only thing that was punished with death was poaching. Just don't poach man.

You would simply make a better point talking about the instability and rampant hooliganism going on that mostly went unpunished.
Yeah this is something that we don't experience today. But then some say as a species we're supposed to experience these kind of things and this is why we're all apathetic, depressive nervous wrecks.

>>2915342
>>implying that anyone is normal on this japanese softcore animated pornography website

Most people are, and you can thank /pol/ and /b/ for that, ironically enough.

>>2915416
I know maybe two dozen people who have been in the military, including my father and a guy my age for whom it was his Plan C to find long-term employment.
Opinions went from "it was okay, would recommend" to "it was fucking shit, don't ever go" but all of them would agree that they prefer that to being a medieval peasant or even a modern subsistence farmer (they've toured third-world shitholes, they know what they're "missing")
I also happen to know many people who were rural Eastern Europeans, namely my grandparents' entire generation, and while they have a lot of gripes with the communists' modernization programs they certainly don't miss their childhood homes that had dirt floors and parasites, no running water, no electricity, no TV, no phones, no appliances etc. Especially now that they're too old to enjoy running barefoot.

>>2915099
>comparing a painting to manuscript doodles

nigga you dumb

>>2915458
Serving as a mercenary in a godless mechanized army like an industrial cog to go fight wars for a plutocratic, possibly tribal elite's mad plan for a new world order is hardly what I would call a fulfilling life.

But this is where we always come back. It's always about comfort for your moderntard. It's like physical comfort is the same as the comfort of the soul, or mind as you would most likely confuse it for.

That's not mentioning that even that sacred cow is being attacked today. Jobs are becoming more demanding and stressful, purchasing power dipping, fitness dipping, debts skyrocketing and the ever constant threat of global anihilation that's been looming over us since the 50s.

What a fucking golden age.

>>2915167
10/10 /pol/sant btfo

>>2915252
back to work, subject.

>>2915389
Wow! What a zinger! have you considered writing for the Daily Show?

>>2915498
>trying this hard

You all should read de Tocqueville, he clarifies pretty well what are the benefits of free-market democracy compared to feudalism, as well as why so many people have a nostalgia for a society where everyone had their place and a role to play. It doesn't help that most of Western wageslaves nowadays lack the filtering mechanisms of culture to make the correct choices to steer their lives in a fruitful direction.

>>2915492
Yeah it's a pretty shitty world but at least we aren't living in some medieval shithole.

Seriously, grow up.

>>2915515
The medieval era was hardly appealing if only for it's instability and serious contradictions.

But at least society made it meaningful. Today's life is oblivion headed for social collapse. There is no higher torture than the absence of god. That's literally what hell was.

>>2915492
the world is better now for the average person than it has been for most of civilized history, the feudal period included. Everyone has problems, everyone has a shitty boss, everyone feels sad sometimes. the world you live in isn't the worst it has ever been. everything is just fine.

A simpler life doesn't equal a better life.

>>2914176
instead we rot away our days sitting

>>2915550
>muh comfort

every.fucking.time

>>2915555
you want a hard life that bad then move to Alaska, start a shitty farm, get an ugly wife, fuck her awkwardly, have lots of ugly kids, and die.

>>2915590
>let's have the worst of both

You aren't the sharpest tool in the shed uh?

>>2913973
>>2914029
Thanks but no thanks. I prefer being able to eat meat whenever I want and not seeing my children starve to death.

t. Russian, who heard from his grandparents stories about their parents' and grandparents' lives.

>>2914299
Weak men fear the awesome responsibility of freedom, of knowing that their choices are truly their own, and that with each one, they bring forth a new world of their won design. They would rather have others choose for them, so that they do not have to accept responsibility for their own fate.

>>2915555
>>2915539
If you despise comfort, then go become a farmer or join some survivalists/hippies/whatever. I'm sure you'll be able to find like-minded people in your country. If you're being tortured by "meaninglessness"
and by the "absence of god", then go join some cult. After all, thanks to the decadent modern civilization, you're aren't tied to a plot of land and are free to choose your lifestyle.

>>2915671
>If you're being tortured by "meaninglessness"
and by the "absence of god", then go join some cult
This is what moderntards actually believe

>you're aren't tied to a plot of land and are free to choose your lifestyle.
Completely on your own and now increasingly padding against society.
That said, economic and regulatory freedom is going down the drain, I thought that alone was consensus here. Even your retarded comfort doesn't hold in modern society.

>>2915539
>I'd rather live a pleasant lie than face a painful truth.

Literally bluepilled, in the most fundamental form of the term. You're like the asswipe in the first film who was willing to sell Zion up the river to get plugged back into the Matrix with all of his memories erased.

>>2915397
>ancien regieme taxes
Let's all just agree to not count france as feudalism, and more as an unholy abomination of a state

>>2915690
M'lady

>>2913885
Is this the rightwing iteration of the "Noble savage" meme?

btw, if someone ITT wants to be a peasant, how about you come to my place? I inherited some farmland, you guys can work it and I'll take half of what you produce and act as a figure of authority?

File: the-famous-pose-of-albert-camus1.jpg (15KB, 537x360px) Image search: [Google]

15KB, 537x360px

>>2915684
Here's an idea: kill yourself. No, really! If you see the future as a never-ending Hell that gives you neither pleasure nor comfort, and the past as an unattainable ideal that taunts you with its beauty, making life unbearable, then killing yourself is a perfectly legitimate option. That's the beauty of free will: if you don't like the game, you can quit any time you want. No one is MAKING you be alive but you. I mean, I personally would prefer that you wouldn't, because I think that life is worth living, but you sure don't seem to think so, and I cannot understand your circumstances but must assume you've made some rational decisions to come to that conclusion.

>>2915696
>Implying an accurate analogy is the same as being a fedoralord

>>2915550
>>2915515

>implying that modern comfort is tied to the base philosophy of our society

So you're comparing the feudalistic societies of the 1100s to the capitalistic societies of the 2000s? Nice even comprison, bub

>>2915714
Material and scientific progress is completely separated from culture, Arabs today have much more tech than Europeans 500 years ago, even with an complete anti-research culture.

>>2915646
Could you relate some of these stories?

File: Pontus Roar.jpg (177KB, 1334x936px) Image search: [Google]

177KB, 1334x936px

>>2915505
ebic.
simply ebic

>>2915610
Alaska has no taxes and loads of backbreaking work.
t. Reservoir engineer

>>2915690
>implying all those underage kids have actually watched the matrix and it's kinomatography

>>2915801
and no women

>>2915811
you can buy a flip wife with all the taxbux you save

>>2915811
Good, the quest for love will fill your meaningless life. That's what you wanted right?

>>2915817
maybe he can watch the aurora borealis.

Nah, he won't appreciate that.

>>2914699
Feudalism =/= farming you simpleton
It depends on the landowner that you're beholden to. Was he a tax happy prick who took all of your grain? Probably as the whole Adam Smith enlightenment shit hadn't happened yet and Devine right was all the rage. Does that mean every lord duke and whatever was Mr steal your food? No, but for better or worse you were stick with the high born dude for his life, which would probably be longer than yours.

>>2915122
Yes they can these days because of the internet and social media.

Yes while we are at it, lets bring back roman style slavery and the latifundia system.

Why is humanity so happy and desirous of being slaves?

Marx was right.

I'd like to hear from anyone in this thread that has actually worked an acre of land the way it was done then. Hell, there are probably less than 5 that have worked any land the way it's done today. It's not as hard a life as some of you seem to want it to be.

>>2915963
I worked in a farm make some money for college, I'd to work hard, but was far more happy than I city.

>>2915963

I have engaged in farming, and it not as easy as you think, friend. Even if you have modern day technology like tractors.

Its not the hardest job in the world, but it requires 100% investment of your time, almost all 365 days of the year. Plus, today crop failures in our time means a step back in profits, or just financial ruination, back then it meant starvation.

You can have farms without a feudal society, that is oblivious, but how possible is a modern feudal society?

>>2916000
Factory/Office/Restaurant/whatever would be a fief

>>2913982
If you every go around rural China, you will see most of the people are just sitting around relaxing.

>>2916008
>capital owner owns the means of production
whoa

>>2916008
That would be sweet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3yCcXgbKrE

>>2916015
>commie can't see things different
whoa

>>2915503
You are too young to be browsing this website.
LMAO JUST LIKE MY EX-WIFE AM I RIGHT?
haha taxes

>>2915696
He's painfully right.

>>2915684
>moderntards

He's LARPing you fuckin idiots. You've all been played.
Brilliant thread, man.

>>2914226
>Iknownothing.post

It's difficult to say what feudalism was or wasn't because the records of it are sparse. The only things we really know about feudalism is that it is best described as a legal system. Everything is essentially done by social or even literal contract. The king is given rights by god to essentially divvy up land. In exchange for that people owe him service and loyalty. They can then take the land given to them for this vow and exchange it down the line to whoever they want to, usually extracting the same promises to themselves (who by proxy extends this to the King, in theory, less so in practice). The idea that if you weren't a noble you were a peasant is fucking stupid. A vast portion of Europe were freemen, townsfolk, and urbanites. They weren't serfs. A freeman might not have a rank, but he has the same level of "freedom" that a noble has. So long as he fulfills his oaths his land is his.

>>2915323
Except the prison industrial complex is literally slavery so there's no need to dilute it with feudalism. It's already abundantly clear that so long as the people you shove into the system are "criminals" nobody will ever lift a finger to improve their horrific conditions.

>>2916037
>Poor oppressed people, we can't lift them to feudalism, if we lift them I'll not be able to fight against the oppression.

>>2913885
I wonder if Anarcho Capitalist ask themselves this

>>2916093
Yes, for me the reason of poverty in middle age is technology not society.

If the world was even a little bit remotely like in the witcher 3 I would pay every shekel of mine just to experience that for even 10 minutes.

File: original.jpg (22KB, 818x503px) Image search: [Google]

22KB, 818x503px

>>2913973
>He can't get a girlfriend or find a reason to live so he'd rather live as a shit stained peasant in the middle ages

Have fun dying from disease or a failed harvest

>>2915778
Not that anon, but sorta the same stories. Except my family owned other families. My family was some sort of higher boyar family, the Bathories and my Great-great-great grandma would tell my great-grandma about how when she was a little girl they could whip the serfs before the Great Emancipation. Then it happened and the peasants wouldn't bow to their passing, and would beat their kids when they would do it by instinct.

Shit was cash.

>>2914226
>saying being illiteracy is inherently bad
>not realizing that cultivation times were mornings and evenings, not in the middle of the day

Feudalism in Western Europe wasn't bad. In times of crisis maybe, but it wasn't this awful oppressive time. It was just a really simple living situation.

Eastern Europe, on the other hand... Just look up Hungarian Serfdom. That is when it gets bad.

>>2916211
Omit *being

>>2916211
excuse me but what was wrong with hungarian serfdom?

>>2916337
There was no representation or defense of peasants, and the Monarch was too weak to control his vassals, so the Nobility were too powerful. Say you were a serf. Your Lord could cone to your hut and take your six year old daughter, only so she could be raped and whipped at a dinner table for entertainment.
And if you tried to fight back, you'd get punished.

>>2914290
Feudalism was literally the paradise on earth, jews were thrown to the stakes, burnt for their crimes, ejected from our nations. The peasantry was content, had plenty of free time, entertainment - a literal paradise on earth.
Then the upper hipster classes were like: How about we stop being a successful society and go back? So they resurrected the (((antics))) and created (((renaissance))) so they can be (((enlighetened))). So progressive, wow, religious tolerance, what a geat thing. It all went downhill from there, capitalism, exploitation, downfal of traditional values & religion. Literally fuck my shit up.

>Not swallowing the feud-pill, not wanting to be a happy peasant working on a field & praying all day.
Fucking enlightened fags, I swear. Fuck your Arishitle and Platcunt, Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine is where it's at, ok?

>>2915283
>Even if you argue that Bruegel was somehow improvising everything and not basing himself on real models
Didn't pay attention in art history class did you anon?

>>2915555
>>2915671
the problem with comfort imo is that the higher the comfort, the higher risk that when it's taken away you will be left utterly clueless as to all the things that you relied on. I guess that's predicated on the idea that we're heading toward some apocalyptic event, which seems unlikely in the first world with its unprecedented stability. But if history is any indicator, ages of prosperity are always cut short by war, social strife and economic slumps. With our world as populated as it is I worry that any major collapse in any one of our economic social and political systems would mean peril for many of us, making comfiness an illusion or at least a opiate which only keeps the pain at bay temporarily.

>>2916677
>Happy peasants

Look at literally any historical source depicting Eastern European serfdom and tell me the peasentry was happy. I can understand hating Jews but unironically wanting to return to feudalism is retarded.

>>2917707
Read Tolstoy's Confession.

>>2913885
Are you saying you don't want to be ruled by the jooz, but by a bunch of inbred nobles instead?

>>2916190
>my Great-great-great grandma would tell my great-grandma about how when she was a little girl they could whip the serfs before the Great Emancipation. Then it happened and the peasants wouldn't bow to their passing, and would beat their kids when they would do it by instinct.

WATTBA.

My family is from Eastern-Central Europe but they were all peasants back in those days, so I get stories of my great-great-grandpa who had to eat cats and dogs to survive one winter

>>2913885
Feudalism
>Peasants create wealth to pay for church and nobles
>Nobles protect the church and the peasants and govern
>Church teach the nobles and to a lesser extent peasants, and ensure the unity of the kingdom

Today
>Peasants create wealth
>Bourgeoisie spends it for itself
>Peasants die at war
>No more church
>No more nobility


Feudalism was more efficient and fair.

>>2913885
>using /pol/ memes on /his/
Discarded

>>2915836
People aren't stupid. Or weren't, so they had stashes for food to avoid excessive taxation.

>>2918083
Leaders aren't stupid. Or weren't, so there would be hefty punishments for hoarding food. Talking life and limb.

>idealising the worst time in history to be poor and best time in history to be rich

Yes, goyim, keep going. Life is bad now, life as a serf good...

>>2914257
The same reason Donald Trump is the president.
If you're stupid, you fight against your own interest.

>>2913973
you're wrong bubby

>>2915492
The body and soul/mind are one. Why separate them?

>>2917999
That's awesome! The same woman would talk about how when she was 6 or something she watched a dog get beaten to death so they could cook him in the churchyard

Then my grandma told me that the old lady cackled and told her later that night they had a dinner party at a friends

>>2913893
Re-readign Iron Kingdom and maybe it's not the same for everywhere but there's a long section that talks about peasant life and such and it was pretty interesting. At least in Prussia, apparently if the peasants just didn't feel like working they'd do only the bare minimum, farm out their own labor to people they essentially hired to take their place that day, all kinds of little small forms of protest that pissed off the nobility. Some times the lord would send a guy out to get shit in order fi the peasants were feeling particularly ornery and there was a always a good chance he'd just get the shit beaten out of him instead.

Granted that would've been in the 1600s/early 1700s and of course being a peasant wasn't a great existence but at least from that I don't get the impression it was the oppressed, tend the fields and sleep in shit style existence we typically think.

>>2913973
>instead of having mr sheckelstein breathing down your neck forcing you to work 80 hours a week

Do you not understand how owing tribute to a feudal lord works?

File: Homestead-Plan.jpg (66KB, 900x529px) Image search: [Google]

66KB, 900x529px

People who miss feudalism should not wish to return but rather use modern technology and applying it to their ideology.

My dream is to marry my girlfriend, earn a bit of money from working, then retreat into a beautiful ecological house with all modern comfort (such as internet, central heating, warm showers) powered by solar panels where I can substance farm.

>>2918358
almond status: activated

>>2914928
It's a celebration you thoughtless first-read-historical-origin-assumption twatface, have you no sense for constructive criticism? A one in a time situation like this can hardly counter the endless days of constant social insecurity, shitty health care, insufficient nutrition, lack of knowledge. You could hope that people around you would help you, maybe in some well working village untouched by incompetent rulership and wars, but for most of the part good fucking luck if your crops go to shit, or getting called out on shit that you haven't done. And hygiene at the time was a comedic attempt in comparison to today's standard, yes maybe they were able to make a soap, but half probably gave a fuckall about that. Seriously, either read all available sources from the period that offer different angles or kill yourself.

>>2920622
but who is gonna produce the internet, complicated machines, garbage desposal infrastructure etc if everyone is producing food

>>2913885
>/pol/mblr is now revising slavery too

Really makes me ponder.

>>2914303
As much as the fairy tale you posted.

Is this another attempt to garner support for this dark enlightenment bullshit?

9 times out of 10, anyone who preaches for Feudalism always believe they'll be the sword noble, royal adviser or at least a minor court functionary. Guess what, you'll be a poor shitting peasant. If you have problems with getting women right now, you also wont be able to look forward to having a fat peasant wife.

This all assumes the nobility also are of sound mind and intent. When really your chances of getting a philosopher king are miniscue. You're far more likely to get a noble who decides to test his new gun on your farm stead or decide to have first dibs on your wife on your wedding night.

You would probably work less but its dull and drudgery. You would have 3 good years and then 1 year of famine.

>>2920885
>or decide to have first dibs on your wife on your wedding night.

Come back when that IQ hits three digits GOT fag.

File: Yeoman Husbandry.jpg (394KB, 948x533px) Image search: [Google]

394KB, 948x533px

yeomanry is the best. fuck feudalism, but also fuck wage slavery.

a life like the amish have is the most healthy and fulfilling in every way. essentially a self governing community of stable families who live and work the land together.

>>2920913

Droit du seigneur existed and laws were passed to stop it.

The scottish medieval historian Hector Boece recorded the law of first night for the king and his lords to do this on the wedding night. Only being abolished by King Malcolm III in the 11th century.

Now I dont think lords were riding around fucking every peasant girl they see, just as samurai werent killing a peasant everytime they got a new sword. But the fact they had to make a ruling for it shows it happened and it bothered people enough to stop it. Even if it happend once a year or whatever.

>>2920948
No body wants to live pre-11th century besides viking larpers.

>>2913973
>work much less than a modern person because you can stop working when you have what you need

I don't think you understand that there was literally never a time, unless you were a priest, you were able or expected to just sit your ass on the ground and stare slack-jawed at the floor.

You can't read. You can't write. You can't do numbers too good. You don't have TV or the internet. So what do you do when there "is no work?" You find work, and remember that in the age before electricity you would go to bed when the sun set, and wake up when the sun rose. You didn't just "stay up" and waste valuable candles doing something stupid like stare at those magical letters on a book you can't read.

Feudalism as redrawing the political, economic and social landscape of Europe was fuelled by

A) Massive decentralization of power, many feudal lords could consider themselves kings in all but name

B) Religion reinforcing a caste based system of society

C) Deurbanization of Europe to a more rural agrarian center

D) The old germanic warlords becoming legitimized but still maintaining their fiefdoms and maintaining their own forces. This was so the king could in theory access an army to fight wars without really paying for it.

None of these things are easily reproduced in the modern first world

In fact if you want to look at what a modern feudal state would look like, take a look at Afghanistan. A nominal government that controls the capital and tiny slices of the country and the rest ruled by near completely autonomous tribal warlords who pay lip service. And large sections ruled by warlords who dont even pretend to listen.

>>2914484
>At least when you're drafted into the army (with nothing more than a pitchfork and a helmet), you can steal from other peasants with equally shitty lives.

I thought that was a quintessentially English thing, specifically Anglo-Saxon Fyrds.

>>2920984
He's probably talking about the 30 year war. And this was mainly done by mercenaries.

>>2920996
>>2920984

Sailors and archers were the ones typically Shanghai'd into service, the two being reasonably valuable skills that take a long time to train up and would present careers that didn't necessitate joining the army.

Peasant levies are just silly!

>>2920971
Good points but I believe you overstated it. Humans have always been inclined towards laziness inbetween productivity, and we can easily keep ourselves entertained and happy with just other people and our own thoughts. The need for extreme stimulation wasnt there so much before video games and tv.

>>2914408
Then go get a shitty construction job that requires no skills and works you 10 hours a day for fucks sake instead of displaying your autism on here.

>>2918358
/forgottenpol/ DETECTED

The thing about feudalism is that it must have been highly varied from location to location, based on how rich the region is and how good the local lord was and other such variables. I can imagine some peasants had it absolutely horrid, but I can also imagine some peasants had it really good.

If the harvests are good and the lord or lady is kind, I can imagine the peasants may have genuinely loved their boss and their lives.

>>2914323
hahahahah

>>2914257
Maybe because common ownership of land was economically better for the average villagers than going to the city and becoming a prole living in urban squalor. The only benefit was probably that you became educated or something.

>>2914709
Once you fell for the industrialization meme, there's no going back.

We will never have to deal with immigration problems

File: peasant coming through.png (338KB, 778x658px) Image search: [Google]

338KB, 778x658px

>>2913973

>>2920864
Bullshit. I've heard plenty of (I assume uninformed) socialist comment on how, theoretically, a pre-capitalist feudalist society "proletariat" was better off than the industrial working class because at least the peasants had better access to the means of production and self-govenrning, while the industrial proletariat didn't own anything and is completely alienated from their work and subservient to the bourgeoisie class.

At least to me this was always a weird postion of the far-left to demonize liberals.

>>2914257
because they were cucks paid by (((soros)))

>>2918020
Peasants and the bourgeoise produce more wealth than ever before, the peasants are wealthier than ever before, and everyone is much less likely to be a victim of war than ever before.

>>2913885
In Russia yes, in some time periods of England and Austria etc no, France is a mixed bag.

>>2915099
>comparing an illuminated manuscript to the dutch masters

you could have pointed out that its a depiction of a wedding feast, and not an everyday meal.

>>2913973
I heard that in those times the sleeping and eating regimen were extremely different than the modern ones we have today.

People used to sleep three times a day and ate in between each sleep.
So working hours would have been much shorter and more relaxing/energetic then we have today.
You could also in between each sleep could plough your wife and be even more pleased.

Sounds extremely comfy.

>>2922207
Don't forget about getting to cum in her every time. Try having a kid before 40 nowadays...

>>2920622
This is best. Anyone can join a commune and live a serf like and take whatever benefits of modern culture they want, like medicine, toliet paper and dental hygiene

>>2922207
>People used to sleep three times a day and ate in between each sleep.
That's because they had nothing better to do. One week back in college I decided to completely plug everything off and spend a lot of time on self-reflection and reading, without the internet or computers or games, and without going out to pubs, the mall or the supermarket. Just one week at home, only going out for walks and light groceries.

This is what my days consisted of:
>read book for 2 hours
>get bored, go take a nap
>wake up, have a snack
>go back to reading a book. Get bored
>Go out. Buy some groceries. Get tired
>Get back home. Sleep.
>Wake up. Spend 2 hours cooking. Eat. go take another nap.

When you're not overloading your senses with mass media or digital entertaininment, you tend to get sleepy a lot. Add a peasant wife to the equasion and you'll end on the old cot 15 hours a day and having 10 kids by the time you're 25.

>>2914011
Not like that really. And Jus Primae Noctis was just a very ill-named tax (to be payed in money or grain, you maniac). It was the Romantics who created the modern myth and the Communists who popularized it.

>>2914012
Saturdays off... I'd love that.

>>2914011
Both peasants and kings died ""at 29 of flu"". OP's asking about the socioeconomic system.

>>2914173
This.

>>2914176
Yeah, no healthy, fulfilling work in the nature for latter-day plebs. Boring, alienating paper-pushing in a cubicle with dim, artificial light and fake human relationships is soo much better...

>>2914226
>rest only on holy days
Of which there's like 160 a year.

>>2918358
And who's going to tach people their own best interest? You, mr. Red? Gee, thank goodness the Marxists are here to teach us where our class consciousness lies, we'd never get there anyway!

>>2914292
Tyranny is a wholly different thing than the law favoring long term stability, believe me. But you're probably as shortsighted as you make others out to be.

>>2914408
This.
>>2914278
We tried your cute little individualistic experiment. It doesn't work. Give us "freedom and serfdom" back, please (it's a reference, in case you didn't get it).
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ffHUG5rv1Mo

>>2922151
>everyone is much less likely to be a victim of war than ever before
you're dead wrong

>>2914290
Not feudalism, the *demonization* thereof.
The book itself is meh, but this argument here (Jews vilifying feudalism in order to uproot the lower classes from order, stability and rule of the aristocracy) is one of the fundamental memes of the Protocols of the Wise men of Zion.
Not to say the Protocols are right: but it's no news nor a weird thing that "it's the Jews" comes up here. They had everything to lose under feudalism, and had everything to gain from modern egalitarianism.

>>2914484
IQ and schooling are two different things. And peasants had an extremely rich culture, both practical (a range of skills that even Army Special Forces don't have - fulfilling skills, too) and literary: tales (philosophical and ethical techings), songs (poetry/art, in some places hailing back from pre-Christian pagan lore and themes), ballads, legends, old men's memories (history), etc. And a lot of time to ponder that, or to compose something new. The sort of stuff you nowadays study in higher education. I don't think many modern kids get better schooling than that.

>>2918020
>There was never conscription or war during feudalism

>>2922151
>Peasants and the bourgeoise produce more wealth than ever before
You are confounding tech progress with political model.

> everyone is much less likely to be a victim of war than ever before.
You are forced to fight in a modern state, while only feudal lords and volunteers frighted in middle age

>>2913973
>qt wife
Lad this is before makeup and personal hygiene, enjoy your acne-encrusted crow's nest-haired 3/10

>work much less than a modern person
AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH

>you can stop working when you have what you need
And when you've done the 60 hours of unpaid labor for your lord for the week. Don't forget the wife and 5 kids which you need to support.

>having mr sheckelstein breathing down your neck forcing you to work 80 hours a week
You can smell the NEET off this post

>the medieval, enchanted worldview ensures that your life feels meaningful
You're literally considered to be less than a person. Lords and nobles sell or give you away at their leisure.

>unlike today where life feels meaningless and hollow, creating a void which most people haven't figured out how to fill
Get a job you hippie

One of the great benefits of larger empires is that at least you don't have to worry about your neighboring populations turning on you.

In the feudal age you had a breakdown of ancient empires. Still had the despotism without that protections. In Asia we call them Warlords.

>>2915982
Farming is easy if you arent a paranoid fuck who worries about crops failing all the time.

>>2923084
>Lad this is before makeup and personal hygiene, enjoy your acne-encrusted crow's nest-haired 3/10
Same mistake, you miss technology for social/political system

>AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH
They did, most peasants only worked full time in two seasons, and had many holidays, this give a 5 days week, 7 hour a day.

>And when you've done the 60 hours of unpaid labor for your lord for the week.
They got what they produce, 50% of their work was for their lord, not different from taxes in most countries today.

>You're literally considered to be less than a person.
No you weren't, it's almost the same as a regular guy today, no political power, always secondary to those who have power, follow some rules and obey authority.

>Lords and nobles sell or give you away at their leisure.
Only in some regions of Russia nobles could sell and give serfs, regions more near to barbarians than feudalism.

>Get a job you hippie

>>2923107
>Same mistake, you miss technology for social/political system
The only time feudalism has been tried was in the Middle Ages, retard. You said yourself that your worldview was medieval.

>They did, most peasants only worked full time in two seasons, and had many holidays
Name me one holiday serfs enjoyed that don't exist outside of feudalism.

>this give a 5 days week, 7 hour a day.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. It takes much more than 35 hours a week to manage a farm, especially during harvest time. At most 35 hours a week is the labor your lord expects of you.

>They got what they produce
This is true for virtually every political system.

>50% of their work was for their lord, not different from taxes in most countries today.
You're delusional if you think your average farmer anywhere today pays 50% taxes.

>No you weren't, it's almost the same as a regular guy today
You had no civil liberties, no rights to property, couldn't leave your job, couldn't marry who you wanted, couldn't get divorced, could literally be bought and sold along with your land (Russian gained infamy for gambling with deeds to their serfs), and in many places your lord could actually have you killed for disobedience.

>no political power, always secondary to those who have power, follow some rules and obey authority.
You do have political power. You can vote, you can run for office, you can campaign for a candidate of your choice. You have the right to take your government to court if they have wronged you. Stop being such a cynical faggot.

>Only in some regions of Russia nobles could sell and give serfs, regions more near to barbarians than feudalism.
>It's not real feudalism guis!!!
Charlemagne would give "unfree peasants" away to the lords whom he granted lands.

>>2913973
>get a qt peasant wife and have a nice family essentially given to you

What makes you think this? Its the same now as it was then, if your wife doesn't actually like you then even if you get married to her, shell just cuck you with Chad thundercock, the fancy peasant with the wooden floor.

Peasants were horny bastards like everybody else. I don't get this 'women in the past were better' meme that /r9k/ propagates.

>>2923193
>The only time feudalism has been tried was in the Middle Ages, retard. You said yourself that your worldview was medieval.
You are blaming a tech fault on a political model, a modern democracy would have the same problem with that tech.

>Name me one holiday serfs enjoyed that don't exist outside of feudalism.
Saints days, not 1 - 2 like today, but 50 - 60

>This is true for virtually every political system.
Then why feudalism is bad?

>You're delusional if you think your average farmer anywhere today pays 50% taxes.
He pays 25 - 30% in direct taxes (income and property taxes) and 20 - 25% in indirect taxes (consume, tariffs, ...), modern states are just better in hiding it.

>You had no civil liberties,
Serfs had right, some that citizens don't have, like don't be called to a war.

>no rights to property
Here you got a point, they couldn't own land

>couldn't leave your job
You can, it wasn't uncommon to a serf became a craftsman in a burgle.

>couldn't marry who you wanted
No legal restriction, people just used to marry in the nearby village, but this happen in smalls societies no matter the system.

>couldn't get divorced
If you weren't a noble you could, even if it was very hard

>could literally be bought and sold along with your land (Russian gained infamy for gambling with deeds to their serfs), and in many places your lord could actually have you killed for disobedience.
This only occur in some regions eastern Europe.

>You do have political power. You can vote,
You represent 0,001% of the political power, that is almost nothing.

>you can run for office,
You can be chosen to hold a position or enter the clergy.

>You have the right to take your government to court if they have wronged you.
Ok, one advange

>Stop being such a cynical faggot.
Sorry but having 0,001% of political power is the same as nothing, a least I'd met my feudal lord in person. Wanting more than a distant overlord is be cynical?

>>2923193
My problem with modern democracy is that nations are so big, that an individual political power is null, you will never met your rulers, never speak with them, what you think is irrelevant, it's impossible to revolt like in a feud. For example, I smoke and most that live near me smoke too, some guy that I've never met sudden start making illegal to smoke in public.

Idly reading through this thread, and I had a thought.

Anyone else find it interesting how people think who the past was better are mocked in the modern age, while those that think the past was worse are encouraged? I mean we have people here jumping down people's throats for thinking that maybe life in ancient times wasn't awful, you don't see that kind of behavior when it comes to the reverse. Doesn't seem rational to me, it's like someone has crafted a meme to goad along toward something.

Might be wise to deconstruct that meme.

File: 1466670662652.jpg (92KB, 500x625px) Image search: [Google]

92KB, 500x625px

>>2914484
>Muh dumb peasants
This shit has got to stop. No school doesn't mean that they were retarded. Their fucking lives depended on having a plethora of useful knowledge and having at least basic mathematic skills and literacy. They needed to know how to survive on their own, how to manage their crops, when and how the weather changes and to know everything there was to know about animals and plants. My fucking grandmother (who only has four classes) has been a peasant her entire life and she successfully ran a mill, a very large patch of land and tobacco plantation and her homestead while feeding 3 children after my grandfather died in ww2.

>>2923259
She was a farmer not a peasant.

>>2923228
>You are blaming a tech fault on a political model
You can't have medieval feudalism without medieval tech.

>Saints days, not 1 - 2 like today, but 50 - 60
Religious holidays exist outside of feudalism.

>Then why feudalism is bad?
Are you retarded or can you just not read? You have to do unpaid labour for your lord, and have no rights.

>He pays 25 - 30% in direct taxes (income and property taxes) and 20 - 25% in indirect taxes (consume, tariffs, ...)
Even assuming that is true (it's not), farmers in almost every nation on earth are given heavy subsidies and tax breaks.

>Serfs had rights
Name me some. Property, public meetings, press, speech, life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are all off the table.

>You can, it wasn't uncommon to a serf became a craftsman in a burgle.
It was extremely uncommon. And it would require your lord's permission regardless.

>No legal restriction
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom_in_Russia#Marriage_and_family_life
"Serf mobility was heavily restricted, which did not leave many options in choosing a spouse. To make things harder, there were three main constraints on the marriage of serfs. The entire empire had to follow rules put into place by the Tsar and the Church, landowners imposed restrictions for their estates, and finally families and communities established certain guidelines and influence."
Stop your bullshit.

>If you weren't a noble you could
Not unless there was some extraordinary circumstance (e.g. infertility) which prevented a marriage from being valid. And that was dependant on religion, there were no secular divorce laws like now. So the political system had no way to initiate divorce.

>This only occur in some regions eastern Europe.
Which obeyed a form of feudalism.

>You represent 0,001% of the political power, that is almost nothing.
It's the same as everyone else, and 0,001% than a serf has. The most fair system there is.

>>2923264
I don't live in america, and she's by definition a peasant since she lives in a 300 population village in the countryside.

>>2923265

>You can be chosen to hold a position or enter the clergy.
A serf can in no circumstance be ennobled, nor is he allowed to leave his land without permission from his lord.

>Sorry but having 0,001% of political power is the same as nothing
It's not, and furthermore you have the ability to change that by forming a party or coalition and running for offices. Feudalism gives no such rights to serfs.

>a least I'd met my feudal lord in person.
Doubtful. At most he would walk by you, not wasting his words on a subhuman serf.

>Wanting more than a distant overlord is be cynical?
Saying "overlords" who treat you like slaves and ones who seek to fight for your civil liberties are in any way alike is.

>>2920848
They had artisans back then, Anon.

Imagine the modern day equivalent and it fits in with the scenario.

>>2917707
Life in Eastern Europe is still shit today though, maybe we shouldn't use Eastern Europe as as average representation of life in a functioning society at any point in history, hmmmm?

>>2923265
>You can't have medieval feudalism without medieval tech.
We are talking about feudalism as a whole.

>Religious holidays exist outside of feudalism.
Yes they exist, have you read what I've written about numbers? 50 religious holidays is very different from 3 or 4.

>Even assuming that is true (it's not), farmers in almost every nation on earth are given heavy subsidies and tax breaks.
And regular citizens? Someone has to pay the subsidies.

>It was extremely uncommon. And it would require your lord's permission regardless.
You use the worse Russian feudalism as example,should I use USSR as example of modern state?

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom_in_Russia#Marriage_and_family_life
>>>>>>>>>>>Serfdom_in_Russia

> there were no secular divorce laws like now.
Are secular divorce laws any better?

>So the political system had no way to initiate divorce.
Again, I don't see how this is even relevant.

>Which obeyed a form of feudalism.
Again is hard when you use only the worse example, North Korea is pretty bad, but I don't said every modern state work this way.

>It's the same as everyone else, and 0,001% than a serf has. The most fair system there is.
Kind fair, some families have 3 or 4 presidents and many senators while most never meet their rulers.

Let's reduce or discussion size, tow post is annoying.

>>2923267
She wasn't under a feudal legal system.

Why do people idolize the peasant life in the middle ages? Isnt that the worst time to be a peasant?

>>2923279
>A serf can in no circumstance be ennobled, nor is he allowed to leave his land without permission from his lord.
Again, only in feudal Russia.

>Feudalism gives no such rights to serfs.
Feudalism let me chat with my ruler.

>Doubtful. At most he would walk by you, not wasting his words on a subhuman serf.
Have you read something about middle ages, except some huge realms, most feudal lords had 150-450 serfs, you can act as a distant ruler with so few people.

>Saying "overlords" who treat you like slaves and ones who seek to fight for your civil liberties are in any way alike is.
Do you really think the president care of you as a citizen, that has rights and deserve attention, you are right when you said he don't treat you like slave, he treat you like a number, that pay tax, serve nation in case of war and vote, nothing more than a statistic.

>>2923300
Just in eastern Europe.

>>2923228
>Here you got a point, they couldn't own land
Considering property taxes are thing, it's arguable that we can't really own land today either.

Feudal times:
>fail to fulfill your obligations to your liege lord
>get whatever property you live on seized by the brute squad

Modern times:
>fail to pay your taxes
>get your property seized by the brute squad

>>2923326
>it's arguable that we can't really own land today either.
In us and some countries, there is only taxes, but in most of EU, government can chose if you can cut a tree or build something in your "own" land.

>>2923335
The more I think about it, the more I realize the people who are arguing in support of feudalism, are just looking to reclaim the rights our ancestors had, which we counterintuitively lost in exchange for "rights" that don't actually seem to do anything meaningful.

>>2923342
The difference between old and modern feudalism is tech level and centralization.

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn6KioEogdM

>>2922506
>2 hours on a book at a time
Wow, you really have to up your taste in literature

>>2922762
i.q. is directly related to education, though.

>>2913973
I see /pol9k/ isn't getting any smarter these days

>>2923218
well, you could beat her and lock her up in your house if she got uppity.

can't do that now

>>2922762
>peasants had an extremely rich culture, both practical (a range of skills that even Army Special Forces don't have - fulfilling skills, too)
It's like im reading a 15 year olds retarded ramblings

>>2918020
>Nobles protect the church and the peasants and govern
>Church teach the nobles and to a lesser extent peasants, and ensure the unity of the kingdom
I notice how nobles and church don't give a single fuck about the peasants in this case

>>2923787
>not giving a single fuck
>about the people whole represent your wealth and the future wealth of your child
>about the sheep whom you must save, or else they WILL burn for eternity

of course, that's presuming the nobles have half a brain and that the church believes itself

File: df4a720c7c8677c165840daef407bff28fe2d736445e2d699af0270d03b82f65.gif (2MB, 320x384px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 320x384px

>>2923876
>that's presuming the nobles have half a brain and that the church believes itself
How can someone be so cynical about the present and so willfully naive about the past? Nostalgia goggles is a hell of a drug

>>2923888
Well, I'm obviously arguing the ideal version of my particular favorite form of society against the lest ideal version of the current one.

It's just part of making an argument, friendo

>>2913885

How fucking pathetically subservient are you?

Why the fuck do you retards want this shit? Capitalism is really that ingrained in your brains? Pseudofeudalism is something you enjoy, so you think you'll enjoy actual feudalism?

You morons will never be free. You idiots don't deserve communism.

>>2923916
no one deserves communism, though.

except for you, faggot

>>2923931

Gulag.

File: e22ea903a4651e6290c65501ad2a79c76730a71fe56290f14b2cbc1b205f3fc9.png (204KB, 500x689px) Image search: [Google]

204KB, 500x689px

>>2923911
Arguments don't have to be my feels of X > my reals of Y dumbass

>>2923916
What this nigga said

>>2913885
You mean manorialism. Peasants weren't concerned with feudalism.

>>2919539
>>2917999
>>2916190
>>2915778
>>2915646
your stories from 20th and 19th century are irrelevant because peasants had it a lot better in like 13th century, then it progressively got worse

>>2923716
>I see /pol9k/ isn't getting any smarter these days
Every body I don't agree is /pol/

>>2923787
>I notice how nobles and church don't give a single fuck about the peasants in this case
Tell me anon, have you ever met your president or a senator?

>>2924507
Bump

File: peasants.jpg (46KB, 841x547px) Image search: [Google]

46KB, 841x547px

>>2913973
>Be peasant
>marry qt peasant wife
>have your feudal lord fuck her in front off you on your wedding night and you better like it since it's his divine right

>>2924507
>meeting someone face to face means they give a fuck about you and vice versa
>in the age of the internet
Even if you want to be really fucking cynical about it, living in the present age where a senator and president's job security is dependent on you means they have to at least pretend to give a fuck about you. A noble or clergy don't even need to pretend back in the day.

Would modern feudalism work?
With economy not based of farming

>>2926566
Look up sharecropping.

>>2923048
>volunteers frighted in middle age
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription#Medieval_levies

>>2913973
>Another person who wants a flawed political system because he can't get laid in this current one

>>2925412

desu, that wasn't a widespread practice at all.

American blacks experienced that a lot more under slaveowners than the vast majority of serfs.

>>2926841

One man per household is less strict than universal conscription.

>>2923916

I don't see anything idiotic about wanting to return to a system under the aspect of an ideal image that contradicts modern conditions.

Work less, have wife, and grow up in centuries old tradition.

The problem is that nobody ever finds freedom except on the frontier. When humans find themselves with nowhere else to go, they resort to trying to game systems with increasing order that has to create entropy in periphery until the costs of the complexity, of sustaining order and trading the places of order and entropy, become too overwhelming for sensible policies to be made.

>>2924402
We weren't trying to show any correlation to the middle ages to the modern era, just our encounters with the corrosion.

>>2920971
>So what do you do when there "is no work?" You find work
Actually what you did when there was no work was fuck your wife.

>Let the reeve be all the time with the serfs (peasants) in the lord’s fields…..because serfs neglect their work and it is necessary to guard against their fraud……the reeve must oversee all work………..if they (serfs) do not work well, let them be punished.

-Walter of Henley c. 1275

>>2923723
do you which mushrooms are edible without using the internet and books?
Well medieval peasants knew that.

>>2926945
Millions of farmers existed in the modern world and everyone is free to pursue such a life.

>>2928517

But if you're a farmer, you're going to get buttfucked by the bank unless you're already independently wealthy.

Bankers are precisely a class of people who game systems with increasing order (and rigidity) at a cost of entropy to things on the periphery of their vision (99% of Americans).

Or the advertising industry. Get people hooked to cognitive parasites that don't care about belief. Just replay it in your head and get mad at it. It still siphons and spreads.

Why should any self-respecting cognitive agent suffer this shit? We're not only taxed monetarily but the entirety of the entertainment, food, and moralism constitutes a cognitive tax of priceless value.

There are so many beautiful things in the world you could be thinking about. And they were crushed for an ad man's dollar.

Of course this is a unique time, we might have actual AI and supergenius children in the next half century.

>>2928720
You just wrote a bunch of nonsensical sentences. Most of that doesn't relate to farming at all and the very fist sentence is moot as well.
If anything, it's easier than ever to go into farming today. But I don't think the majority of the people with a very romantic view of such a lifestyle in this thread would go through with it, even if it was just substinence farming.

>>2913885
no it was comfy af

>>2928494
Are you trying to insinuate that peasants somehow inherently knew which mushrooms were edible and which were poisonous and they didn't have guidebooks or at the very least other peasants telling them which mushrooms were safe to eat?

>>2928746
Socialists can't make arguments, only spew humanist and technofuturist drivel at you.

>m-muh glorious perfect central AI planning and FALC will happen eventually, guys! Just you w-wait! ;_____;

>>2928794
>FALC
What's that?

>>2928794
>insinuating that I'm a socialist of any sort

I'm with capital against mankind. At least capital has a chance to engender accelerating intelligence.

>>2928746

"We should have cops who watch cops!"

Okay now you have another bureaucracy, another layer of complexity for ever decreasing returns on the investment.

"Okay what about cops who watch the cops...who watch the cops!"

Another pile of order for decreasing returns...

So tell me, which of my sentences were "nonsensical"? Which part had you stretching your head?

I mean the cognitive load of man is stressed by keeping tracks of ever increasing amounts of social agents constrained within the same amount of land. Not only that but the attempts at dominating the daily cognition of a population for the sole purpose of selling ad space.

There are far more beautiful things to muse on but if you took accounting of your life, you'd find many ...subpar cognitive frames.

>>2929010
Even if you weren't greatly exaggerating, a farmer pends most days working, not dealing with bureaucracy or advertisement. And that bureaucracy ensures order as opposed to the state in which people lived in feudal societies where nothing was guaranteed to them in return for providing taxes and even protection wasn't a constant element.
Again, nobody is holding people back from turning to farming while in the middle ages, farming was what most people were born into and couldn't change professions.

>>2929075

To compress my thoughts on this...

The value of a moral-aesthetic worldview can outweigh the value of sterile truth. Especially when the "truth" of the modern day is incredibly unsatisfying.

I was trying to get you to understand how people might want to react back to a former social order, even to the point of liking the idea of a feudal lord-fief-yeoman relationship. As opposed to daily predation on segments of their cognitive frames.

When there is no frontier, you have a class, or multiple classes, of people who try to organize themselves and justify their status as de facto rent seekers.

A vision of the cowboy, the sailor, and the aviator on the frontier is a vision of freedom from humans being cocksuckers all around and freedom from wanting to be nothing more than the most cocksuckingist rent seeker in the land.

>>2924498
>everybody that has views sensibly similar to the majority of people that browse /pol/ and /r9k/ shouldn't be called /pol9k/ because it hurt their feefees
ok tumblr