Given that the apostles all died horrible deaths in the name

>>2909277
People do all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons.

>>2909277
>people don't die for religious delusions
tell the to the next suicide bomber you see.

>>2909277
Everyone in the past was stupid and crazy because they couldn't use their iPhones or go on the internet because there was no service back then.

>>2909280
I believe the point he's getting at is that deliberate con-men seldom die for their cons.

>>2909280

Not comparable, suicide bombers are led astray by someone else.

The Apostles knew Jesus personally and proclaimed his resurrection with their dying breaths.

Again, people do not die for something they make up.

>>2909298
>people die for religious delusions
>other people die for religious delusions
>oh it is totally not the same

forget it OP, pretty much everyone understands how weird religious people can get. Your proof is trash, and your religion is likely the same.

>>2909333

>literally witnessing a miracle so irrefutable that you're willing to die for it
>getting told to blow yourself up for a bunch of pussy

Yeah man, totally the same thing.

The Apostles willingly martyred themselves for something they personally witnessed, not what at someone else's command. This is historical fact and your denial flies in the face of human nature.

>>2909298
see >>2909280

>>2909360
see
>>2909292
Show me a suicide bomber who met Mohammed.

>>2909360

Debunked already.

>People don't willingly die for a lie they made up.
Joseph Smith did.

And we don't really know that all of them died horrible deaths. James's death is the only one even the Bible describes.

>>2909280
>>2909360
Suicide bombers experience heavy indoctrination and conditioning often beginning when they were children:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/10/20121014102539659862.html

The early church did not posses the institutional organization to inflict this kind of conditioning on the apostles so this comparison holds no water. The apostles chose to die because they believed what they had seen.

Do we have evidence that any of the apostles actually in their own words talked about the resurrection?

>>2909354
>The Apostles willingly martyred themselves for something they personally witnessed
they may have indeed witnessed something, but there's no reason that what they witnessed couldn't simply be a vision or delusion

>>2909382
Heaven's Gate.

>>2909394
Also victims of systemic indoctrination.

>>2909277
>ITT
>religious weirdo tries to prove that his religious weirdos where more sane than other peoples religious weirdos.

>>2909382
exactly what level of organization do you need to indoctrinate someone? was the early church's organization more simple than say jonestown or heaven's gate?

>>2909382

Now explain the Christians who have converted to Pisslam and died as suicide bombers.

>>2909380

Joseph Smith got killed trying to flee a mob.

>>2909386

Yes, read their epistles.

>>2909387

12 men all seeing the same exact thing and being convinced to the point of enduring horrible deaths for it? Are you really willing to bet on it just being a "delusion"?

>>2909400

>ITT
>Atheists getting BTFO by historical facts

>>2909386

The only writings we have that are fairly sure to be by an Apostle is the Gospel of Thomas, and that's just a collection of sayings of Jesus, it has no narrative and doesn't mention his death, let alone his resurrection.

>>2909404
>12 men all seeing the same exact thing and being convinced to the point of enduring horrible deaths for it? Are you really willing to bet on it just being a "delusion"?
yes. why not? it's pretty damn common.

>>2909401
I don't know, the only point I'm trying to make is that suicide bombers experienced a level of indoctrination that the apostles did not.

>>2909403
Demonic influence obviously.

>>2909411

I'm sure you can cite examples.

>>2909417
jonestown, heaven's gate, etc. already mentioned.

>>2909423

None of those are comparable.

>>2909382
>>2909375
>>2909372
>the only explanation for a religious belief is that it was caused by witnessing a real supernatural event

>>2909277
They believed it. That's all it boils down to anyway.
I believe it, fuck you. That's faith.

What sources are there about these apostles and the events surrounding their deaths beyond the bible?

>>2909427
the head of the heaven's gate cult was definitely sincerely deluded by his own claimed divinity

>>2909427
so you're betting on the idea that only once in history have twelve whole people thought they saw the same magical thing? that's your strategy?

>>2909396
Which only took about 20 years, no influence outside the group itself, and no institutional power. Nothing Early Christianity couldn't do itself.

>>2909408
It's sad that atheists are incapable of believing people who believe differently than they do are anything other than insane. Even the most zealous and intolerant Christian of yore didn't believe pagans were insane, just misled by demons, which is far more charitable when you think about it.

It figures though, atheism always was "Stop liking what I don't like!" The Religion. A perfect cult for autists.

>>2909427
>muh special pleading

You "people" really are the dumbest, most dishonest, least respectable scum ever to crawl out of a dog's cunt.

>>2909414
>suicide bombers experienced a level of indoctrination that the apostles did not
that argument is gonna depend on the claim that just growing up in a certain religious climate can't have comparable effects

>>2909429
>The only explanation for a religious belief is those that hold it are mentally defective.

>>2909429

>People will let themselves be tortured and killed over something they know full well is a lie because they made it up

>>2909434

Josephus, early church accounts.

>>2909440

Yup, because no other incidents were put to the test and proven to be true.

>>2909448

See above, name one other time it has happened and was not put to the test and found false.

>>2909457
>>2909457
>>2909457
>>2909457

Atheist hypocrisy at its finest.

>>2909446
>atheists are incapable of believing people who believe differently than they do are anything other than insane
that's a tendency of all ignorant arrogant people and ideologues, not just atheists and not all atheists
but arguably nobody ITT has accused religious people of being insane
somebody used the word "delusion" which could just mean something like "strongly held false belief"

>>2909459
>Josephus, early church accounts.
Specifics, please. At least give me the works they're supposedly mentioned in.

>>2909472

http://www.about-jesus.org/martyrs.htm

>>2909465
>somebody used the word "delusion" which could just mean something like "strongly held false belief"
i think that's me. I was refering specifically to visions, etc. however I didn't mean that that means they were scizophrenic. perfectly normal people can have such experiences even without drugs. in Roman times it was quite common for both pagans and christians to fast in order to make these experiences more likely to happen.

>>2909459
>something they know full well is a lie
so those are the two options, huh? either a true belief caused by being a firsthand witness to a real supernatural event, or a fully conscious lie?

>Yup, because no other incidents were put to the test and proven to be true.
ok so the argument is now no longer that 12 people believed they saw the same supernatural event
the argument is that the incident was "put to the test" and "proven to be true"
so what was the test, who performed it, what proof resulted and how?

>>2909277

The martyrdom traditions of the Apostles are late and legendary and have no identifiable foundation in genuine history. We do not have information on how any of the original followers of Jesus died, beyond Josephus mentioning that his brother James was executed by the Romans. We don't see these martyrdom naratives show up until the 2nd and 3rd centuries with the writings of Tertullian and Origen. In fact, beyond references to Peter in Paul's nonpseudipigraphical letters and the aforementioned execution of James they all drop off the historical map entirely after Jesus' crucifixion.
.

>>2909457
you believe that the only way to come to a powerful false belief is to be mentally defective?

>>2909488

>so those are the two options, huh?

Yup. Nobody dies for something they know is a lie. So either the apostles lied, or what they claimed was true.

No, it is not possible that they were all fooled into meeting the resurrected Jesus.

>so what was the test, who performed it, what proof resulted and how?

Every martyrdom
The people apostles
Proof was that they believed in what they claimed because they were willing to die for it

>>2909530
>Yup. Nobody dies for something they know is a lie.
you do realize that it's possible to believe something and for it not to be true, right? surely you've gone to school before and taken a test, only to get a question wrong. were you lying?

>>2909542

The difference being it's really fucking hard to believe multiple people could have the "delusion" of having met with and talked to a physically resurrected person and be willing to die rather than recant.

>The apostles were deluded

Right, so Jesus' identical twin decided to prank them and convince them he rose from the dead.

>>2909530
>Yup.
how do you know?

>>2909566

Read the rest of the sentence.

>>2909446
>being this autistic

>>2909552
knowing about 20th century cults, not really at all. not all of them could simply be boiled down to someone tricking and purposefully indoctrinating others, like heaven's gate

>>2909579

Nothing in the 20th century involved interacting with a physically resurrected person.

(No, someone claiming to be the "reincarnation" of whoever doesn't count)

There is simply no comparison.

>>2909530
btw your epistemic principles here are going to force you to believe in the existence of every single mythical, supernatural, and paranormal being and phenomenon that over 11 people have sincerely believed they have observed around the same time
get ready to accept most religions, cults, mythologies, and folklores in world history

>>2909591

Nope. Because none of them have been tested in the same way and proven to be true.

>>2909572
the rest of the sentence has nothing to do with proving that those are the only two options

>>2909478
>Batholomew
The article references a non-existent document called "Martyrdom of Bartholomew." No such document exists, and a cursory Google search yields no extra-biblical documents concerning an apostle named Bartholomew. The article does not provide the alleged document.
>James son of Alphaeus
The article cites a boot written in the 16th century.
>Andrew
The article just has a nebulous reference to the Catholic Encyclopedia.
>Peter, Judas, John
The article doesn't even reference anything. It just makes unsubstantiated claims.
>Jesus
Why is he here?
>Thomas
It just cites that same book written in the 16th century.
>James son of Zebedee
It just cites the bible.
>Philip, Matthew, Thaddeus (Jude), Simon
The 16th century book again.

I asked for extra-biblical sources for the supposed martyrdoms of these supposed apostles, you gave me a heap of garbage.

>>2909598

It's clear that those are the only options.

>>2909596
right, so you don't actually care about this "roughly simultaneous 12-person sincere belief in having observed a miracle" argument
what you care about is this so-called test & proof
but when asked what that consists in, you repeat the "sincere belief" argument (>>2909530)

>>2909602
how do you figure

>>2909615

Both are important.

The high unlikelihood of 12 people holding the sincere belief in HAVING MET AND INTERACTED WITH A RESURRECTED PERSON, and the test of whether it was true by them being willing to die for it.

No other phenomena or miracle compares to meeting a resurrected person.

So unless you're postulating that someone dressed up like Jesus and tricked the apostles who knew him dearly, you are calling them liars, which is clearly not the case since liars don't willingly die for their lies.

>>2909620

See above.

>>2909601

I'm not here to do your research for you, I gave you Josephus who talks about James' martyrdom.

Do the rest your self.

>>2909651
Josephus is incredibly shaky and unclear, and very possibly an interpolation or scribal error. There isn't even any evidence within the text that he was an apostle. Also, you're making the claim that the supposed apostles were martyred specifically for claiming the resurrection of Jesus, so the onus is on you to provide evidence. The thing is, there is no evidence. There's the bible, which is not a historical document and I don't think it even deals with the supposed martyrdoms of the supposed apostles in any real detail.

Your argument is garbage, and the fact that you've become indignant about having to support your own claims with historical documentation tells me and every discerning reader of this thread that you can't do it

>>2909683

There is evidence, not my fault that you refuse to do your research.

You need to know your shit like I do before you get to call anyone's argument garbage.

>>2909702
If you know your shit, it should be trivial for you to cough up sources. It's not my job to research every retarded claim some faggot on 4chan makes. You're trying to prove your claim, that means you need to produce the goods.

>>2909292
Check the early mormon leaders Broseph Smith

>>2909711

I'm not responsible for educating you, go read a book you simpleton.

>>2909645
>Both are important.
but what i'm saying is that you have only given one argument, which is this

1. if 12 people sincerely believe they saw the same magical event around the same time, the magical event really happened
2. if you die for your belief, it's sincere
3. the 12 apostles died for their belief
4. so 12 people had that sincere belief
5. so the magical event really happened

this is the argument that i said will force you to believe in basically all magical things, since many have died for those beliefs too, and anyway dying isn't the only evidence of sincerity (so premises 2-3 aren't necessary in every variation)
your response was that in all those other cases, this argument may apply, but in the case of jesus there is also a test and a proof in addition to it
but that test and proof turns out to be the same argument repeated again
and even if it was a different argument, then that other argument would be the one you were actually relying on instead of the sincere belief argument
so either way you've played yourself and also you still haven't given any reason to think supernatural claims must be either true observation reports or conscious lies

>>2909724
Dude, you're embarrassing yourself. I'd tell you to quit while you're ahead, but you're so far behind the curb, you might as well just go home.

>>2909729

Except there is no other incident proven like this one, meaning I don't have to believe anything else.

>>2909741

I see you've given up. Nice failure to address the question, I'll take that as your concession.

>>2909277
>>2909298
>>2909354

https://youtu.be/VlBJpObJhDU

>>2909749

((())))

>>2909746
>Except there is no other incident proven like this one, meaning I don't have to believe anything else.
okay, so you are a retard
i just had to be sure
i laid out the whole thing completely explicitly, and all you had to say was a lackluster repeat of something that was explicitly addressed in the post you responded to
fucking moron
kys
i'm out

>>2909762

Another concession, thanks for playing.

Better luck next time.

>>2909746
>>2909769

You don't win the argument by slinging accusations of ignorance or slyly insinuating laziness in lieu of providing evidence for your own position, or by refusing to actually engage the opponent's argument.

>>2909798

Oh, I thought you were leaving?

Are you going to actually refute my argument or keep demanding other people spoonfeed you?

>>2909815
>counting is hard, must be the same guy coming back
But then again, we are talking about a christfag here, who probably asserts that there are no contradictions between the OT and the NT.

And, while new to the thread, it's easy enough to refute your argument. If mere belief is proof of the veracity of the thing believed, then Hale-Bopp really did have a space ship trailing after it and by killing yourself at the right time, your soul could embark on that spaceship. Also, the earth is going to be destroyed any day now.

File: Look at the poster count.png (19KB, 1893x307px) Image search: [Google]

19KB, 1893x307px

>>2909828
Forgot the pic

>>2909815
>Oh, I thought you were leaving?
Never said I was leaving. I'm not >>2909762
>Are you going to actually refute my argument or keep demanding other people spoonfeed you?
I already refuted your argument by declaring that the claims your entire argument is based on were baseless and you had no evidence to support them. You responded by making further nebulous and baseless claims that the evidence "totally exists", then handwaving your responsibility to provide evidence for your claims, and finally attacking me personally.

>>2909828

Yeah, nothing you said counters it.

It's not mere belief, it is belief tested under the most brutal circumstances by direct witnesses, not indoctrinated zombies.

And there are no contradictions, deal with it.

>>2909832

You have refuted nothing.

Keep trying.

>>2909842
>It's not mere belief, it is belief tested under the most brutal circumstances by direct witnesses,
So, exactly like the Heaven's Gate community, which personally "witnessed" the claims that the comet held a spaceship that could carry souls, and went out of their way to shed their mortal bodies in preparation.

>not indoctrinated zombies.
Ooh, a small cult, hiding away from mainstream society. Totally not indoctrinating, and totally not like how the early Christians were.

>And there are no contradictions, deal with it.
How many generations were there between David and Jechoniah/Jechonias? Why do Matthew and Chronicles have different numbers?

>>2909749
Welp. Guess that's it, pack it in boys Christianity is over.

>>2909889

>So, exactly like the Heaven's Gate community, which personally "witnessed" the claims that the comet held a spaceship that could carry souls, and went out of their way to shed their mortal bodies in preparation.

"Witnessing" a claim is not the same as MEETING A RESURRECTED PERSON.

>>2909894
>"Witnessing" a claim is not the same as MEETING A RESURRECTED PERSON.
Can you actually address my argument instead of making a strawman about it?

What, by the way, is the difference between supposedly meeting a resurrected person, and the supposed witnessing of miraculous powers of the "UFO two"?

>>2909904

Your "question" is based on a nonsensical comparison.

There is a major difference between seeing someone die, then meeting them again days later and hanging out for days and witnessing "powers" of two "beings" you aren't seeing and interacting with.

>>2909913
>Your "question" is based on a nonsensical comparison.
No it isn't. In both cases, you have a group numbering in the double digits claiming to see an obvious suspension of the laws which most of the rest of us live by. Why is the comparison nonsense?

>and witnessing "powers" of two "beings" you aren't seeing and interacting with.
The UFO duo was Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Nettles, who were very real, flesh and blood people, whose followers claimed did very real, in your face miracles.

>>2909277
Buddhist monks light themselves on fire

>>2909933

Being fooled by party tricks isn't the same as seeing someone die and come back to life.

>>2909987
What makes you think they were party tricks? Why is resurrection such an important miracle, but not other miracles?

As a side point, you haven't gotten back to me about that number of generations things. Are you conceding that there's discrepancies between books in the bible, or are you still trying to think up an answer?

>>2909998

Magic tricks performed by con artists vs someone verifiably dying and coming back to life? You tell me how there couldn't be a bigger difference.

>As a side point, you haven't gotten back to me about that number of generations things.

It was answered.

>>2910015
>Magic tricks performed by con artists vs someone verifiably dying and coming back to life? You tell me how there couldn't be a bigger difference.
What makes you think they're magic tricks? Why are you so certain YOUR group's miracles are legit but other groups arent'?

>It was answered.
Where?

>>2909277
So does this mean ISIS suicide bombers also follow a true religion?

>>2910020

Because none of those people came back from the dead, meaning they weren't real miracles at all most likely.

>Where?

http://www.contradictingbiblecontradictions.com/?p=1179

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>>2910015
>fake death
>show up in town 3 days later
>2000 years later autistic retards shill for you on anonymous imageboards

&Humanities was a mistake, and it's all Christianity's fault.

>>2910040
>Because none of those people came back from the dead, meaning they weren't real miracles at all most likely.
That says nothing about the possibility of their miracles being legit. Besides which, do you say the same things about Alvaro Garza Jr? Kelvin Santos? Li Xiufeng? Lyudmila Steblitskaya? Or are they all faking it too?

>Incredibly unconvincing apologetics.
You might think that a wicked king isn't a good guy, but he's still a biological impact, and it throws your "14 generations" claim all out of the water. "I wasn't expecting people to take what I deliberately said seriously" is pathetic, even for a Christcuck.

>>2910057

>Get crucified
>Get stabbed
>Somehow live for three days with grievous wounds

Nah

>>2910066

None were comparable.

>You might think that a wicked king isn't a good guy, but he's still a biological impact, and it throws your "14 generations" claim all out of the water.

Except it doesn't and you're missing the point.

>>2910077
>None were comparable.
Of course they were. You have people being "dead" and in a morgue for the same three days and getting back up.

>Except it doesn't and you're missing the point.
Yes, it does. Your apologetic literally makes the claim that Matthew excluded Ahaziah, Joas, Amaziah, as punishment for Joram killing his brothers. It also makes the bizarre, unsubstantiated claim that there was a "Temple Archives" that kept track of this shit. And then, in the crowning of failure, it says

> Maybe a comparable punishment was laid on the royal family of David by the priests right after Joram's murders.
I.E., we actually have no support for this idea at all, but we hope you'll believe it because we've run out of ways to reconcile the unreconcilable.

By the way, the temple that was around back then burnt to the ground and had all of its stuff either removed or stolen, so I don't know why anyone would be drawing from a list that they supposedly had back then anyway.

>>2910097

They weren't dead.

>>2910142
I can turn around and say Jesus wasn't dead.

>>2910203

Prove it

>>2910274
take a poop in front of us

>>2910294

K posting to youtube now

>>2909333
are you illiterate

>>2910274

He rose again. Dead people don't do that, ergo, he wasn't dead.

>>2909749
Fuck anon this guys great.
Been watching his videos for 2 hours now and he just makes so much sense.
Anyone here converted to Judaism? Seems like it might be for me.

>>2910435

You don't need to convert, you can go to Jew Heaven simply by following the seven laws of Noah. In fact becoming a Jew makes it harder to reach heaven, since instead of seven easy to follow laws, Jews have 613 laws, some of which are pretty damn inconvenient, and because Jews are meant to be a light unto the nations, God holds them to a much higher standard and is less likely to forgive a transgressing Jew than a transgressing gentile.

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>>2910435

Yeah his lectures are great

One does not need to convert to Judaism in order to be considered righteous before G-d, there is always the observane of the Seven Noahide Laws for non-Jews that was revealed in the Torah alongside everything else. Conversion to Orthodox Judaism requires a lot of time and dedication and should not be made lightly, here's some resources

http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm#Conversion

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2972927/jewish/What-to-Expect-at-a-Conversion.htm

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/385671/jewish/How-Are-We-to-View-Jews-by-Choice.htm

https://asknoah.org/7-commandments

>>2909490
>drop off the historical map entirely after Jesus' crucifixion

They were never ON the historical map, most of them have zero historical support and are probably as fictional as Jesus himself.

>>2910470
Do you have autism?

>>2910496

No. Do you have mental retardation?

>>2910496

What is autistic about that post

>>2910500
>>2910498
ahaha I thought you were the self confessed autistic jew who posted a few months ago, sorry if I offended you anon.
But yes I don't think I'm anywhere near good enough to take on the burden of the law, I would convert to orthodox though If I were going to.

>>2910514

Just keep researching and learning and then decide how you feel about it, there is no superiority between Jew and Gentile, only each one's required obligations to G-d

>>2910545
Are you jewish? Born or converted?
I think that God might want me to be jewish but I'm a unrelenting sinner, I can't resist my family and worship idols nearly every week, masturbate every day and I don't know if I could get married if I did convert.

>>2910579

https://youtu.be/ku8WzUSyK5E

Converts can marry Jews, you're as Jewish as anyone that was born of a Jewish mother once you go through an Orthodox Jewish conversion process

>>2910626
Sorry I mean I'm a very unattractive person, both inside and outside.
A jewish women who perhaps by some stroke of fate decided to marry me would end up being very resentful to the fact that I am her husband and consider her life having been wasted because of me.
From what I've read though, a mans duty is to be married, at least in the eyes of God so I would NEED to get married.
That is my predicament.

>>2910579

If you don't think you could keep the 613 mitzvot, then do yourself a favor and don't convert. God will not forgive you for taking on these demands and then falling short, just stick to the seven noahide laws.