Why didn't the kulaks just share the grain?

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Alot of commie shills out today. Reminder that Stalin would hate the perverted social politics of modern leftism.

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>>2898479

>Implying an obsession with identity, the individual, and access to resources isn't an outgrowth of the capitalist consumerism Millennials were raised on

The modern left is a capitalist invention.

The true radicals will rise and sweep it away with the rest.

>>2898497
No True Scotsman?

>>2898497
Capitalism is leftism.

>>2898545

Not really. If you compare classical communist texts with modern snowflakeism the only real common factor is pressed versus oppressors. The targets are all different. Snowflakeism is biggest among the rich and upper middle class. Communism always did best with the urban poor or rural peasants.

reminder that communism has killed more people than any ideology in human history, and that communists are scum

impolite sage

>>2898644

>ideology can kill people

What did he mean by this?

>>2898497
You just posted my exact toughts on the modern left comrade

>>2898644

Friendly reminder that more people have been raised out of absolute poverty and a life of hardship and death by disease under communist governments than capitalist ones.

Reminder that the two greatest economic transformations in history were the USSR in the 1920s and the PRC in recent years.

Reminder that capitalist regimes killed far more.

>>2898843
Only commies would laugh at genocide.

>>2898869

> A natural disaster is genocide

Meanwhile, /pol/ laughs at a real genocide. The capitalists were also happy to do fuck all about it while the Red Army did all the work stopping it.

>>2898869
> genocide

The word gets thrown around as loosely as your mother. There can't be a genocide of an economic class.

>>2898869
It was Ukraine's own damn fault for the so-called Holodomor.

> thinking "kulaks" wasn't a meme to justify mass murder of potentially reactionary public
Why american leftards so naive?

>>2898931
Orly? How come? And, was it just coincedence that famine in Volga region affected mostly Germans?

>>2898952

The famine effected lots of people all over the soviet Union.

Or, what about all the famines in India as a direct result of the British during WW2?

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>"stalin killed lots of people"
>tfw they never mention the death toll of the West
>tfw they're never able to compare systems without siding with their own
>tfw they're sheeps

If the Hodolomor had happened in Sudan, and if the perpetrators were to be the US you guys would simply not care about it.

>b-but muh whataboutism
You don't need to be a tankie to realize that if you'll criticize a system (and in this case the criticism is supposed to discredit it as a whole), then you should also check if those arguments apply to your system as well.

>>2898958
The famine in 32-33 mostly affected two refions, Eastern Ukraine and Volga region.

>>2898497
Fucking this. College made gommies going to be purged first.

>>2898479
they are liberals and they get the bullet first. Note that many conservatives can considered to be liberal.

>>2898875
/pol/ here, you faggots suck at history

>>2898958
Why do you shift the conversation to the British? We're talking about Soviets, if you're so confident that it wasn't intentional you wouldn't need to change the subject.

>>2898447
Because the Kulaks didn't have the grain, especially not in the numbers that the Communists demanded.

Stalin set unreasonably high growth quotas, which caused the lower-level soviet officials to report bullshit production figures that grew faster than the "official" state figures. This then caused Moscow to demand grain according to the reported production figures that nobody actually achieved. The fact of the matter on the ground is that there was a drought, and productivity was way down because there was a shortage of farm animals. This caused the communist officials to set collection figures that were higher than the actual amount of grain produced, leaving absolutely none for the peasants.

So for example, a plot of land produces 2 tons of grain, the communist officials report to Moscow that it produced 4 tons, because exceeding production quotas gets you promoted. Moscow demands 2 tons because according to the reported figures, that would leave a reasonable 2 ton for the farmer. The officials then go to collect the non-existent 2 tons of grain, and only find 1 because the farmers have kept 1 ton for themselves to survive. Now the officials accuse the farmers of hoarding and search the farms for any hidden food. If the farmer wasn't shot for the crime of "hoarding", now they have zero food for themselves to eat.

>>2898447
The fact that people still think kulaks were the victims is disgusting.

>>2898545
>muh fallacies
So, you think the DPRK is democratic because they call themselves that?

>>2899464
and the widely reported amount of kulaks that slaughtered their cattle to try to sell off the meat or save it in their freezers rather then letting the government compensate them for it? There is no question that the kulak issue was multifactorial and I am sure that what you stated happened. But lets not pretend that the kulaks were not actively opposing the government at every turn. Whether their drive was ignorance, greed, or direct sabotage is unknown. What is known is that they fucked any chance that collectivisation had of working in the ass.

>>2899515
It's exactly the absolute form of Democracy.

>>2898497
I respect this kind of commie much more than a liberal "socialist" whose only coherent belief is hating white people.

because dealing with the famine in the cities meant they had to requisition pretty much all the grain, kulak or small peasant.

>>2899533

The seizure of cattle was not compensated, which is the whole point of the Kulaks slaughtering and eating their livestock. Better to have the calories rather than getting nothing when the government takes it.

Collectivization is never compensated properly, because at it's heart collectivization is a way of bribing the masses by designating a demographic "enemies of the people" and placating your allies with property seized from those "enemies". If the communists gave proper compensation, it would require they raise those resources from taxes elsewhere.

No farmer ever willingly destroys what they spent their time and effort cultivating.

>>2898928
>There can't be a genocide of an economic class.
Yes their can be. Especially when this economic class is largely Ukrainian Orthodox.

>>2898497
lol. chairman of mankind

>>2898447
Grain is scarce in the Gulag.

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>>2898865
You're delusional.

http://myweb.fsu.edu/jsc07e/Documents/Papers/Connors%20-%20Economic%20Institutions%20and%20Global%20Poverty.pdf

>>2898875
The Red Army put more people in concentration camps than the nazis did.

Not even just a little more, like exponentially more people.

>>2899593
The cattle would have been taken to a collectie facility where the proceeds would have been equally redistributed. This is the equivalent of 5 people being stuck on an island, one has a bag of beef jerky and refuses to share, the rest say they will take it by force so he instead throws it into the ocean. So then they kill hm for being a huge dick. You can spin it however you want but thats what essentially happened. People were being forced to share with those in need and they shot the entire country in the foot.

>>2899647
Look up the definition of genocide then get back to me. It literally can't apply to an economic class.

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>>2900031
>we killed a bunch of people of a certain class causing untold amounts of death and suffering due to our terrible ideology, but it's not TECHNICALLY genocide, reactionaries BTFO communism wins again! HOW WILL THEY EVER RECOVER

>>2899937

No he isn't, he's just a liar.

>>2900031

Classic tankie mixing up cause and effect

"Dekulakization" started before the famine of 32-33. Stalin announced the "liquidation of the Kulaks" in December of 29. At this time, there was no famine in the Soviet Union. In 1929 the Soviet government was still exporting ~3 million tons of grain.

The famine started because of gross inefficiencies with collectivization and the kulak backlash against seizure of property. If you want to use the island analogy, there are 5 farmers on the island, one has a few draft horses in addition to his farm. There's enough for everyone to eat and still sell some for money. Then the neighbors decide to seize the wealthy farmer's horses, so he decided to eat and sell the pigs himself before the neighbors take it from him.

The neighbors arrive at his farm, find no horses, and drive the farmer off his land. Without the expertise of the farmer and his horses to aid plowing, the neighbors can't farm as efficiently, and now there's starvation.

>tfw /his/ has been reduced to /pol/ denying the Holocaust and /leftypol/ denying Holodomar

>>2900076
> HURR DURR PEOPLE DIED SO IS GENOCIDE

Im sorry that words have meaning you dipshit. Human rights violations do not = genocide. Massacers do not = genocide. Killing large numbers of people does not = genocide. Call things what they are otherwise t takes away from your arguement and dilutes the gravity of the word. Genocide is a much different thing than just killing a buch of people. I'm surprised that you cant see that despite the hundreds of hours of education we get on genocide since WWII.

>>2900136
your analogy is a bad one. According to you there was no reason to take the farmers animals, when in reality there was. And there clearly was ot enough food for everyone beause for some reason when the farmer killed his animals everyone starved to death. And it wasnt cuz they didnt know how to farm. There were pleanty of peasant who worked on the farms that knew how things worked as well as other farmers who were still around. Your analogy isheavily bias to your narrative of the innocent farmer and the illogical commie coming to plow his wife and rape his land.

Try to objectively look at your own story and ask yourself if all the participants make logical sense. They dont, therefore something doesnt fit. In my narrative everyone behaves the way they do for a reason, not some random act of violence. "All of a sudden the neighbors decide to seize the wealthy farmers horses for no reason."

>>2900432
>genocide
>the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation
Kulaks were mostly Ukranian. It was a genocide.

>>2900471
Try reading again, specifically
>"Dekulakization" started before the famine of 32-33. Stalin announced the "liquidation of the Kulaks" in December of 29. At this time, there was no famine in the Soviet Union. In 1929 the Soviet government was still exporting ~3 million tons of grain.
To reiterate
>At this time, there was no famine in the Soviet Union. In 1929 the Soviet government was still exporting ~3 million tons of grain.

>>2900259

Holocaust was genocide though. Hodolomor was natural. The Great Leap Forward actually saved hundreds of millions from future famines.

>>2900521
>Hodolomor was natural
What natural causes were those?
>The Great Leap Forward actually saved hundreds of millions from future famines.
All my keks. The Holocaust saved tens of billions of Jews (the last survivors of mankind) from decimation in the future Andromedan-S'kstls'ptlrs space wars.

>>2899548
all leftists hate white people