An United Europe

>>2896619
Bad, alliances is all, all Europe should br in permanent alliances of mutual defense, thats it.

>>2896619
>lumping together dozens of different countries each with their own language, culture and 1000+ years of animosity with their neighbours
>good idea

>tfw euroskeptic and never even been to europe
Yeah pretty bad idea

>>2896619
Well the only reason is works now is because America funds it. Had they actually had to do it on their own it would have fallen apart before it even started

>>2896634
Especially when two or three countries are essentially holding up the value of their currency while a handful are degrading it.

And then one of those who are the major producers leave.

>gg

>>2896619
It's a great idea. Others in this thread clearly don't understand it or never studied philosophy behind unification.
European countries alone are simply too weak to compete with economic powerhouses such as USA, China (or the Soviet Union in the past).

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>>2896619
>Çatalca Peninsula
>Istanbul
>Europe

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>>2896650
>America funds it
[citation needed]

>>2896694
>European countries alone are simply too weak to compete with economic powerhouses such as USA, China (or the Soviet Union in the past).

This

>>2896650
This is horseshit. Any difference i military spending (if that is what you mean) is balanced by the considerably higher foreign aid and refugee aid the europeans pay.

Many EU countries also have a greater proportion of active military personnel than the US.

What they dont want is to be forced to finance ailing american industry by buying expensive equipment they barely need.

On topic, I am a big supporter of the eu, which gives me personally greater opportunity for travel, access to a wider job market, access to a number of prestigious universities, cheaper food, fairer prices on utilities and in a wider sense provides me with a stable and peaceful living.

It's the only way our countries could stay relevant on the world stage. It's also the best way to preserve our cultures, contrary to what populists say.

>>2896665
How is that any different from the us? Dont new york and texas finance mississipi and alabama?

>>2896888
>Dont new york and texas finance mississipi and alabama?
This is a sore subject among flyovers. Best not to mention it.

>>2896888
States =/= Independent Nations

>>2896907
In this case, thats a purely semantic difference

>>2896907
EU =\= independent nations

>>2896882
>It's also the best way to preserve our cultures, contrary to what populists say.
is it really?
anyways i used to be a huge eurosceptic and i'm against the current EU, but i have become more open to the idea of a european unity after listening to Oswald Mosley

>>2896915
In what regards? The states don't have to each pay for their own military. Police sure, but not full a full fledged fighting force. In fact none of them have the power or jurisdiction that the federal government has.

Of course they're not all going to produce the same GDP, but at the end of the day they are nowhere near as powerful as independent countries and share and armed forces. If one doesn't produce as well other can make up. Greece is a major factor in the decline of the Euro but if they want to leave it's likely they'll have to pay like the EU is trying to force the UK to do.

>>2896966
Not him, but the eu finances cultural institutions massively, protects minority rights and is a big boost to tourism

>>2896975
Sure, that is a difference, but defence is miniscule and greece is miniscule on top of that.

By comparison, california defaulted a few yeard back. You dont think that also hurt the us?

The euro has the backing of like 7 big aaa economies. Its doing fine, and will do better with future legislation

>>2896619
Reeeeeeeeee add Cyprus to that blue pqrt of the map.

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>>2896983
Miniscule? Ok, the total military budget of the US is $580 billion.
Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States#Total_Budget_of_Military

Divide that up by 50, assuming each state has to contribute equally, and each state would need to be able to afford $11.6 billion. Now Take a look at state budgets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_budgets) Most could afford it, but many would be dedicating most if not all of their budgets to paying for a military, and there would still be those left without a force to defend themselves.

And now, look at how countries contribute to the euro in the photo attached. There are far more countries depleting the euro rather than aiding it. The UK is one of the few helping keep it afloat, and now they're leaving. Good luck with that.

>>2897012
I dont understand what you are trying to say. Of course contributions are going to be uneven, regardless of whether its the eu or the us

Your use of math is generally questionable. The average us output is unfeasible for nebraska or other small states

>>2896634
If china can do it so can Europe

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>>2896619
>>2896694
Closer alliances between European countries are a good thing. Drifting towards the establishment of a superstate or pseudo superstate is autism and a recipe for disaster.
Pic semi related I guess.

>>2896882

No, fuck the EU.
It's an institution filled to the brim with clueless morons and bureaucrats who create unnessesarly complicated law, so they can milk the European taxpayer for their own benefits.
Also they don't preserve culture, when they allow and encourage retarded shit like cultural appropriation and outright censorship of dissenting views.

The EU should be abolished and recreated as a economical union

I honestly don't care if they band together or not, but if they do I'm going to laugh my ass off when we eventually get another balkanization.

Except this time, it's going to be all of Europe.

>>2896619
As a trade union and possible route to mutual defense? sure, great, probably necessary

As the growing parallel to the shambling cannibal government that is the US Federal, it is an awful idea. An undemocratic oligarchy that will spell disaster for its substates.

My country, Europe. My language, European. My religion, equality.

>>2896634
if you overlay augustus' rome and hitlers nazi germany you pretty much have project accomplished

>>2896619
it still is a good idea
europe must unite and take its rightful place as leader of the free world

>>2896619
It's a beautiful thing. It truly is. It is hardly perfect and it may not have a 100% stellar track-record and it still has potential to go horribly wrong. But is still a success, it's unique and beautiful mix of sovreignity of states and federal institution and power of the people. And I guess technocratic functionalism. It's pretty cool, famille.

>>2897201
t. Nigel

>>2896694
>European countries alone are simply too weak to compete with economic powerhouses such as USA, China

That's why globalism is shit and protectionism is the only way a small nation can compete economically in a world with overproduction and mass cheap labor force like China or the US

>>2896878
>I am a big supporter of the eu, which gives me personally greater opportunity for travel, access to a wider job market, access to a number of prestigious universities, cheaper food, fairer prices on utilities and in a wider sense provides me with a stable and peaceful living.

t. 3rdworlder from the shithole depths of the balkans, eastern Europe, middle east and Africa.

>>2896882
>It's also the best way to preserve our cultures

You are very naive. Wouldn't surprise me if you're american. The UE isn't about preserving culture. It's a technocracy which only aims to make trade a priority above all. Culture, society and politics are all centered around how the economy goes, not vice-versa. The EU is a globalist project that only exists because of the US's global capitalist economy.

>>2896977
>protects minority rights
Not a good thing. I don't want EU enforced and supported mussulman immigration.

>>2897327
not an argument

>>2897297
>power of the people
There's no way to express how hard I cracked up when I read that. EU is not, will not and never was democratic. It was not designed to be so.

I want a united EU because it annoys the Americans and the Ruskies alike.

>>2897394
I too like the idea of being a Chinese satellite state.

>>2897416
>I'd rather be X's puppet than Y's!
Besides; China's a paper tiger

>>2896619
>russia isn't europe
???

>>2896619
If they'd shape the EU after the Swiss confederation and not after the Soviet Union it might have been a good idea.

>>2897427
Russia isn't Europe. Russia is Russia.

>>2897434
t. Zbigniew Brzeziński

>>2897426
>I'd rather be X's puppet than Y's!
At least americans aren't stinky slanty eyed dog eating chinks
>Besides; China's a paper tiger
So are America and especially Russia.

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>>2897434
no way russia is europe to the urals ez

>>2897363
Never said it was.

>>2897481
>Russia
Ruskies is arguably more competent than the chinks, especially when it comes to military power projection.

>>2897515
Its not about geography, it is a bout culture and historic boundaries.

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>>2897536
my point still stands!

>>2897544
No it doesn't, after that the mongols came, killed most of the shit, enslaved the rest and kept Russia isolated form Europe until Peter I opened it up again. Thats why Russia and Europe evolved completely different.

>>2897536

Culturally they are European.

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>>2897561
>No it doesn't, after that the mongols came, killed most of the shit, enslaved the rest and kept Russia isolated form Europe until Peter I...

That's a funny way of saying St Petersberg.

If anything it was more the Khazar Khanate that ripped it up, isolated, seperated.

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>>2897628

>>2897297
>still a success
>sovreignity of states
>power of the people
the EU is none of these, ameritards should leave

>>2897216
cringe

>>2896878
Helping millions of violent strangers who hate us to go in and not even trying to keep the know terrorists out does not compensate for the lack of a real army.

Sending money into corrupt shithole only make it more corrupt and solve no problem.

Using diplomacy and a small, very mobile and offensive army like France do make most African states live in peace and prevent many ethnic/religious cleaning. Remember about that islamic state in Mali/Algeria and in Tchad? Dealt with with the French way.


Our way show positive result, yours only lead to even more misery and dead people.

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>>2896619
They should have mutual defense, cooporation in science and trade with countries along the northeuropean plain, which all have similar economic prospects and historicaly the most hostile relations becuase of the lack of security along this area. Also the southern european regions are capital poor becuaase of the cost of transportation (mountonous terrain and no rivers which makes boat transportation, the cheapest method, harder)and arable land.
Pic related

>>2897366
>>2897774
How exactly is the EU not democratic?

All power is ultimately derived from elections from the people. This is my main criterion for judging how democratic something is, so in my eyes the EU is clearly democratic.

>>2897841
German would be secure aswell as russia and france would be fucked, which is why the beurocracy shouldnt be too big, then everyone would be secure and dependent on eachoders, and since all regions would be geographically simular there would be no leeching like how greece is today. Germany would be able to sell its manufactured capital throughout asia and siberia and europe. Ukraine would be a super power with its grain and coal aswell as intelingent population, poland would eventually do better, the baltics would be secure and better, France would be safe and get science cooporation, Britain and ireland would get science, russia would have a huge market to sell its natural resources to to and scandinavia would earn.... nothing?

>>2896619
It's the best thing that happened to Europe ever.

>>2897844
Just like in North Korea, or most African dictatorship.

Elections is when you have the choice between some men who know each other and agree on most things. Whoever you vote for do what he want once he is elected. In the EU, they have another layer separating them from the will of the people.

You really think borrowing billions to Greece was a thing we agreed with?
You really thing we want millions of so called refugees to settle in our countries ?
You really think we want the economies of France and Romania to play by the same rules?

>>2897844
>All power is ultimately derived from elections from the people.

Factually incorrect.

>>2897883
>Elections is when you have the choice between some men who know each other and agree on most things. Whoever you vote for do what he want once he is elected. In the EU, they have another layer separating them from the will of the people.
So, you're against representative democracy in general? Then this is not a problem specific to the EU.

>>2897885
>Factually incorrect.
How so?

The four major powers are: The European Parliament, the European Council, the Commission and the Court of Justice.

Courts of Justice are never elected, so that's not a problem.
The European Parliament is directly elected.
The Council consists of people from the governments of the member states, who are elected in national elections.
The Commission is nominated by the Council (national elections) and appointed by the EP (European election).

Who doesn't derive his power from an election and is that unlike national governments?

>>2897899
Representative democracy have its flaws, but you find them more or less present according to the way the institutions work and how united the people are.

Representative democracy in Iceland is probably the best thing ever.
When the EU do it, it become a soft dictature.

How can we measure it? Easy, just look at how hard the official try to suppress dissident voices and to act independently of the will of the people.

>>2897899
>Parliament
>have no real power

>>2896882
>It's the only way our countries could stay relevant on the world stage.
It's interesting. Everyone still believes that without the EU we would all be in the mud alongside Africa or something.

>>2897807
you're a politcally incorrect intolerate biggot if u dont bend over and let them reserve cavity search you by detonating themselves inside your rectum

>>2897936
>When the EU do it, it become a soft dictature.
Why?

Your claim is that something is a dictatorship if the way the institutions work isn't right (who knows what you mean by that) and the people aren't united. I don't understand how that is supposed to make sense.

>Easy, just look at how hard the official try to suppress dissident voices
What exactly do you mean? How are officials suppressing dissident voices in the EU and is this unlike national governments?

>and to act independently of the will of the people.
Who gets decide what the will of the people is? How do we find out, what tools do we use to find this out, if not elections?

>>2897948
Literally every single law has to go through the European Parliament up to THRICE. It has a veto power every single time. The European Parliament just doesn't have the right of initiative, which the Commission has, but the EP can force the Commission to initiate the invocation of their right to initiative about specific matters, if there is a majority in the EP.

>>2896619
When was the last time 70+ years passed without a (major) war in Western Europe?

Whether or not further unification or expansion to ex-soviet countries are good things is still up to debate(and not /his/, anyway), but I think it's pretty obvious that European Union as originally conceived was a good idea.

>>2897976
Forcing the Commission to deal with a specific matter can also be initiated by the Council and even by a European Citizens' Initiative, by the way.

>>2897362
You would like it if you were Basque or a member of a native European minority as such.

>>2896860
where is liechtenstein

>>2898028
it is offshore

>>2897988
>No longer world power
>The only thing to fight for is to keep the colonial empire
>Nukes
The EU is not why we are at peace.

>>2897976
I don't know what you are trying to imply. Denmark and Iceland are not crypto nazis.

Just take a fucking look at how the EU push for more "diversity" everywhere, to destroy everything European and every culture or traditions we have, only to enforce unvetted immigrations on top of it.

The Eu does have a propaganda machine and sanctions against those who stand on their path. Theses are not an indicator of democracy.

>>2897994
All we can do is force them to give an answer.
They are free to say no.
Enjoy your power.

>>2896634
Is there really much a difference between the countries? They're all white and thats what counts, whether your greek or norwegian.

>>2896977
Will the EU protect the minorities of the native populations it swallowed?

>>2896619
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxutY7ss1v4

>>2898198
Greeks and Norwegians don't belong in the same state, nor do they look or act similar.

You're average Greek probably has more in common with a Syrian than a Norwegian.

>>2896619

Great idea

Too fast expansion

Too rigid currency system

Doomed to fail now that it has basically become the West supporting East and South

Also gypsies

>>2898203
Can you find something even more biased? This look like an add for the EU creaded with Euromony.

>>2898230
Did you actually watched the video? Half of it is saying what the EU did right and the other half is what the EU did wrong. And all of it is sourced.

>>2898214
East and south should leave, Norway, Switzerland and Iceland should join and then most of the problem of the Eu would be sloved.

Instead of all of Europe. They should have started with main powers like France, Germany, Italy, Spain.

>>2897073
and India.

>>2898241
>italy
>main power
Until we manage to sort shit out we can't be considered a main power.
t. italian

>>2897353
>Protectionism is the only way a small nation can compete economically
>Protectionism = competition

Wait, what?

>>2896619
It's a start, ideally I'd like to see a world government. It erases peoples concerns about immigrants since there would be none anymore, just people moving around in one country. Race would no longer be needed to be documented or seperated except in studies for certain races being predisposed to certain illnesses, in which case it's just a study of genetics.

>>2897524
yet still can wreck the EU cucks anywaty

>>2898238
I stopped at "we are at peace because of the EU".

I am looking it and all it say against the eu is "sheple feel like it is bad"

>>2896619
>Putting countries that have historically fucking hated each each other and have COMPLETELY different culures (The Eternal Anglo and the Eternal Kraut) in an economic and later cultural union will have NO FORESEEABLE CONSEQUENCES

The Jew behind the EU (Coudenhove-Kalergi) was a dipshit wasn't he?

>>2898198
>They're all white and thats what counts
That is such an American idea. In Europe, only complete retards who blindly copy American ideology have that view. Until recently, nobody in Europe gave much of a fuck about other races, the subhuman wasn't a nigger or Muslim, it your neighbor (The German, The French, The Slav). The European fascists tried to exterminate other European races, not brown people. Even the Nazis cooperated with Muslims while exterminating blonde, blue eyed Russians.

>>2898259
A one world governement don't mean all of the world have the same standard of living or the same quality of life, so massive movements of populations will still be a thing.

>>2898300
But back them the Muslim was in Egypt. Would millions of Muslims be in Germany, you can bet they would have the Jew treatment.

>>2898291
>The Jew behind the EU (Coudenhove-Kalergi) was a dipshit wasn't he?
Coudenhove-Kalergi wasn't Jewish. He was half-Japanese, half-Greek/Flemish/German.

>>2898300
This..Americucks are so obsessed with races its unbearable

>>2898300
Literally this. Le savior of the white race Hitler allied with the Japanese to take down European empires and allowed them to take white Australian and Dutch women and force them into prostitution to be brutally raped. The idea of the united "white race" is an American stormfag invention. Europeans held a somewhat similar view, but each thought that their individual ethnicity of the white race was better (especially when it came to Germans vs Slavs) and deserved to hold hegemony over the continent.

>>2898360
He wasnt jewish, he only worshipped them as superior.

>>2898006

We had our own special rights and privileges long before the era of super-national bureaucracies.

t. Basque

>>2896619
possible

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>>2898370

>>2896619
"United"

We will never get a peacefully and united Europe when Germany exists.

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Post best Europe

>>2897073
China is +90% Han. India would've been a better example.

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>>2900733
Cause most of them are hindu worshippers

>yfw Europe could've been united under a single religion if not because of this fat fuck

>>2898165
Propaganda is a factor in every regime, democratic or not.

The sanctions are applicable when some members don't meet the obligations decided upon the institutions that each member backs. A sanction is merely a penalty. A penal system is essential to any political system, democratic or not.

Poland and Hungary could activate article 50. The EU can't legally force them not to. But the EU doesn't have an obligation not to treat leavers as it would treat any non-EU member. It's not "unfair" it's basic sense - why would they not take a proportional share of the burden, while at the same time taking in more benefits?

>>2898168
They are appointed by the governments each nation elects. To change policy campaign and vote.

>>2900744
There are plenty of sects of hinduism.

>>2898287
Economic interdependence is the main reason. War would simply not be worth it.

>>2900733
>implying Han is an actual monolithic group
Han is basically like saying white

>>2897844
>All power is ultimately derived from elections from the people

No it's not you fag. The institution with actual power in the EU is elected by themselves.

>>2900779
Han is basically like saying Germanic or Slavic.

>>2900744
>most of them are hindu worshippers
Hinduism =/= abrahamic religion with central church and guy in funny hat

>>2896619
Get Switzerland and Ukraine off that map you fucking GERMAN

>>2896619
>tfw this may become true in your lifetime

>>2900779
>>2900936
Don't most of them speak the same language though?

>>2896619
Reeeeee

>>2898291
You should read his Paneuropa manifesto. It explains the idea behind unified Europe. I bet you've never read anything about that man except that quote about European-Negroid race and Jews.

>>2901578
Feels good man

>>2897568
lmao western europe was almost totally isolated from russia until the 18th century

>>2900750
>Propaganda is a factor in every regime, democratic or not.
How on earth is that a defense? You actually think it's desirable that an supranational institution is actively trying to silence people though """""""hate speech""""" laws while at the same time propagating diversity is wonderful in the hope the massive influx of MILLIONS of africans we supposedly "need" wont result in a huge backlash? The EU as a political union is barely supported by the people yet Brussels is working very hard to make the EU one.

>>2897988
All of that is thanks to NATO not the EU

>>2898259
I wouldn't want a world government, fuck that. Although I would favor something like a stronger UN to tackle problems like nuclear escalation, global warming, the overuse of antibiotics etc. So long as it was federated and not just borderless anarchy, because nobody is going to benefit from that... the civil planning alone would be a nightmare, not to mention the capacity to spread disease or military insurgents.

>>2898198
>Amerifat detected

Culturally, Swedes and Italians are very different from one another. That's just one example. Race exists but it isn't everything.

>>2901736
No. They just use thhe same writing system, because the chink alphabet is symbolic, not phonetic, and can thus be used without any kind of understanding of how anyone else but your community pronounces it.

>>2900756
They are indeed appointed by the elected national governments but there are certain requirements those persons have to meet. Such as "working in the interest of the european people and whole of the EU" which on the surface seems logical but in practice means that nations can basically only appoint proEU fags.

>>2898370
>>2898300
>Slavs are an ethnicity

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>>2896882
>whoring our national economies to American multinationals
>opening the borders and disprivileging "problematic" European culture
>reducing people to utile that simply occupy an "economic zone"
>a belching giant of bureaucracy dedicated to preserving and exhausted liberal-kantianism
>ethnic replacement
>Euro is becoming one of the worst currency failures in world history
>militarily no more than a pimple on the arse of NATO
>Ode to Joy (should be the final nail really)

you're delusional

>>2901578
It's more likely that the EU will be dead in 2030. I have ears on the ground in German politics and they're rather blackpilled about the EU.

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>>2896619

>>2897216
The pseudo religion of equality will not save you from the marginalization of your people and tradition which will take place.

>>2896619
It should have stayed as a trading bloc, right now it is just puppet states under German control.

the EU should have been France, BENELUX, Germany, Austria, and Britain.

No one else.

>>2897394
This

>>2896619
It could of worked but the politicians in power abused the idea and now it's all falling apart.

>>2897073
Kys

Without the EU, European countries instantly become irrelevant compared to the US, China, India, Brazil and Russia.

>>2896619
Would probably have been if it didn't involve replacing native europeans with muslims desu

Europe has to stand up from its knees, however whether uniting into a single entity is the answer is a difficult question. I doubt it, and am not a big fan of the idea.

>>2897073
(You)

>>2905949
>Without the EU, European countries instantly become irrelevant compared to the US, China, India, Brazil and Russia

Even without the EU, Russia is no enemy it's GDP is a joke.

>>2901736
Han Chinese all speak languages from the Sinitic family, much like how Slavs and Germanics are both ethno-linguistic groups; but the Han Chinese share a cultural identity, a common writing system, a coherent genetic structure, and they were actually united under a centralized government (and when they weren't united, they always fought to get united again) for thousands of years.

in my experience the people that criticise the EU the hardest often times have no idea of even the basics of how it functions

>>2897353
>protectionism
Yeah because that's always so successful isn't it?

>>2897201
>milk the European taxpayer
EU tax isn't compulsory.
>they allow and encourage retarded shit like cultural appropriation and outright censorship of dissenting views.
Since when?

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>>2896694
Why do you need to be an economic powerhouse? Just seek economic independence. People lived just fine before global economies.

>>2897869
Scandis would get more refugees.

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>>2906817
>Just seek economic independence. People lived just fine before global economies.
What? How is that an argument? We live in an age of Globalisation in which first world countries are now forced to compete with other economic powerhouses like China and the US just to achieve economic independence.

>>2906830
>forced
we live in an age of automated factories and 3D printing. You don't even need a large workforce any more, if your nation has the raw materials for production and enough arable land to feed everyone in it, you can be economically independent. And if either of those aren't true, you're a fucked up artificial nation, a product of globalism and part of the problem.

>>2906815
>Since when?
Largely since the migrant scheme.
Germany has been censoring and charging anyone remotely criticising certain things like the migrant scheme. I don't know if Sweden is arresting/fining any critiques themselves however they are censoring many dissenting views.

>>2897353
Dude just think a bit before you speak. Latin America, does it say anything to you?

>>2897988
1815-1914

Prussia-France was a 2 month war.
Don't forget the Cold War and Balkans war.

Finally, these comparisons are idiotic. Nuclear weapons exist now.

>>2902374
>The EU as a political union is barely supported by the people
Source

>>2906842
So like for one or two years

>>2900779
[Citation needed]

>>2906838
>if your nation has the raw materials for production
Production of what? The number of products people consider necessary needs these days is insane. There's no way a nation has all the materials necessary to make smartphones and PCs for everyone, trade is a necessity to provide these things to people.

>>2905949
Source? Not like you guys aren't military allies.

>>2902405
They are...

>>2906965
Retard detected.

Slav is a language family.

>>2906753
The Han Chinese are an ethnic group. Case closed.

>>2906976
Slavs are an ethnic and linguistic group you fucking imbecile.

>>2906988
Exactly.

You can argue that certain cantonese/minority groups in the southwest are not (although they consider themselves to be Han)... but that still means 80% of China is Han.

globalist idea to destroy the nations of europe with an artifical "european" identity

>>2900744
What? It worked sufficently well in the HRE, until Bohemia sperged out.

>>2906753
>and when they weren't united, they always fought to get united again
What did they do that for? If they liked unity so bad why did they keep splitting up, or if they like splitting up so bad why did they keep trying to unite again?

>>2907068
How is that any more artificial than national idenitity?

>let's create some federal superstructure and completely miss the point of why the EU exists in the first place
Peace and Prosperity. Our goal is non combatant, The only thing a federal superstate would do is miss the point by creating some other empire to fuel nationalism in a different way. Let's just build that Common European Home instead and stay true to the project's foundations.

>>2896665
>Major producer leave
And then the banks and the companies moves. The only thing brexit did was make it easier for the EU to expand its military cooperation. Not having Americas #1 bitch in the union will make it better.

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>mfw brexiteers push the "unelected bureaucrats" me
Do you elect your civil service? Of fucking course not, because that would be moronic.

It's a good idea on paper but in practice it's honestly pretty bad. Reminds me of a certain other pan-national movement.

>>2896619
Absolutely right

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>>2896619
The simple observation that Norway, Iceland, and Switzerland are doing great while not being EU-members speaks for itself.
>>2896882
No, it is merely a clique of elitists enriching themselves while undermining any for or shape of national identity and integrity since these are perceived as a threat to the EU.
>>2897297
>sovereign
>federal
pick one
>>2906856
Get your head out of your arse.

Pan-nationalism has always been a disastrous failure. What Europe, the Arab World, China, the Slavs etc are trying to do is be America so they can take on America.

Unfortunately for them, a unique set of circumstances arose to make America possible, and they are all finding that such wide-sweeping national unity is impossible to achieve in the Old World.

Enjoy fragmentation.

>>2907846
>The simple observation that Norway, Iceland, and Switzerland are doing great while not being EU-members speaks for itself.
Too bad that Norway is basically a voteless member, since they share in most treaties, plus they have petrodollars galore. Iceland is far from doing great, and Switzerland is also halfway towards being a voteless member.

>>2896619
It's a great idea, with a shitty implementation.

>>2896694
That doesn't matter. Different geographical areas and cultures have varying interests which are extrapolated in historically fragmented Europe.

America only works because the states share more cultural similarities than they differ, and they do not have a great history of independence and competition (it happened but on a small scale and for a small amount of time).

The EU will go the same way as Gran Columbia.

>>2907875
A couple of agreements does not come close to being EU-member. That you are bringing up natural resources as if solely Norway possesses them is pitiable. And Iceland is one the most prosperous nations on the world and it is booming since its debt crisis.

>>2907257
They broke up over power struggles but believed that China always had to be whole and united again. The "one China policy" is a remnant of this belief.

How does it actually work in the US? There are big economic differences between the states and seems to work somehow.

>>2900936
either way its not saying much
>>2896634
>has nothing to do with any of the problems that the EU currently has
great job retard
>>2896619
I'd say its a wash, there aren't any real problems with it other than its nearly pointless, the open borders thing is pretty nice but the trade margins are fickle as the value of the currency

>>2906844
>2 month War
>war between 2 most important continental killed tens of thousands and led to the creation of modern Germany
jesus fucking Christ this board is shit
>Cold War and Balkans war
neither are a "(major)" wars and one didn't have a single land engagement in Europe
Not that any of that matters because the EU has nothing to do with at least half of that "70 years" that was mentioned

>>2909639
*2 most important continental *powers* that killed tens of thousands...

>>2906753
>common writing system
you mean like the latin alphabet?
>coherent genetic structure
what?
>united under a centralized government
Oh you mean like Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, The Roman Empire, the Ottoman Empire, and pretty much any fucking empire that ruled over multiple peoples ever??? Not to mention China is most definitely not completely Han considering there are semi-autonomous enclaves and Xiongnu, Hui, Tibetan peoples, etc....there's a reason that China has a bloody civil war that kills millions of its people every few centuries, because they most definitely are not culturally homogeneous.

I like that idea

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>>2900724

Damn the eternal krauts

>>2896619
Yes.

EU is a lobbyist's wet dream. Since the governments are sub-servient to the EU, you can just focus on Brussels to push your corporation's agenda. The EU has all these feint "hurr we care what our citizens think" like European Citizen Initiatives, but the rules of invoking it are nearly impossible, not to mention the fact that the EP or EC can just say """""no"""" to it (usually due to the lobbyists advising them to do so).

There are also problems wuth the EC being opaque and its members getting private lunches, trips, private talk deals and such. Its negotiations are also always between it and "industry leaders", which is why TTIP was completely negotiated in secret. The talks were full of industry lobbyists with no Citizen's Representatives present.

>>2910779
And yet mega corps like Rupert Murdoch's media empire are supporting the UK to leave the EU because thanks to Franco-German influence the EU isn't subservient enough to their agenda.

>>2910787
A corporation can peddle both sides in hopes of favourable political climate. The EU just makes lobbying in Europe fsr easier than it was before it.

>>2910779
>There are also problems wuth the EC being opaque
What exactly do you mean? They release a shitload of official documents for anyone to read.

>members getting private lunches, trips, private talk deals
Whoopdiedoo. What kind of totalitarian shithole do you live in that high officials have to report every private lunch? Also, there's open lobby lists for everyone to see through, with allotted consultation times listed. They're probably less opaque than your national government.

>which is why TTIP was completely negotiated in secret.
Absolutely false. Since years already, you could've literally downloaded every document detailing the currently agreed upon measurements each stage.

>The talks were full of industry lobbyists with no Citizen's Representatives present.
Because it was a trade deal. Naturally, it will rather involve industry lobbyists, rather than activists from Concerned Moms for Animals.

>>2907999
>A couple of agreements does not come close to being EU-member.
"Couple of agreements", kek.

40% of Switzerland's revisions of laws are literally just EU law.
http://www.ethlife.ethz.ch/archive_articles/121206_ewr_rechtsanpassung_sch/

Let's not even mention the laws that just outright start being EU law (half of all laws passed in Switzerland), because the EU is Switzerland's #1 reference point when passing new laws, even when the EU isn't actively demanding it.

>>2896619
no fuck off
ukraine and belarus belong to Russia

>>2907846
>Get your head out of your arse.
"Muh friends who happen to be my friends because they share my general worldview, which includes being hostile to the EU, are hostile to the EU, so people generally must be. Also, anecdotes are superior to data."

>>2906842
>Germany has been censoring and charging anyone remotely criticising certain things like the migrant scheme.
Not only is that not true,
even if it was, then Germany would have to be blamed, not the EU. After all, they would've done it out of their own volition.

>>2897201
Well that's pure BS, without the EU Europe would be a shithole, the difference would be huge

>>2900806
Which imaginary institution are you referring to?

List it.

>>2902401
>which on the surface seems logical but in practice means that nations can basically only appoint proEU fags.
As if that would make any difference in practice. National governments just appoint whomever they want. There is no mechanism for preventing that.

Feel free to prove that claim by giving a list of people that were rejected on that grounds, enforced by an EU institution, though.

Brexit was inevitable when Britain refused to adopt the Euro. Sooner or later that wasn't going to fly with the rest of the union.

>>2898165
How does your post have anything to do with his argument?

>>2911031
>Because it was a trade deal. Naturally, it will rather involve industry lobbyists, rather than activists from Concerned Moms for Animals.
Concerned Mums for Animals should have a voice in decision making because regulation-destroying free trade deal absolutely affects animals and basically every aspect of life of a normal citizen.

>>2911137
Should industry lobbyists in return then have a voice in every single other aspect of life, because the economy does absolutely affect every single other aspect of life of a normal citizen?

Ideally, everyone should everywhere have his voice represented, but there's only so many hours in a day for you to hear out people, so naturally consultations about topics will be biased towards topics that not just tangentially concern that topic.

Concerned Mums' for Animals voices are heard enough pertaining tangential topics through the process which determines who gets to lead the negotiations. That is, ultimately elections for people who appoint the negotiators.

>>2896619
>A United

Might makes right, and the bigger you are the better. A supreme argument for a united EU is to be able to push back against America and China.

>>2911152
>Ideally, everyone should everywhere have his voice represented, but there's only so many hours in a day for you to hear out people, so naturally consultations about topics will be biased towards topics that not just tangentially concern that topic.
It's not a question of time but rather money. If Concerned Mums for Animals had lobbying budget of 1mrd €, they absolutely would've sat at TTIP negotiation table if Citizen activist groups weren't specifically banned from being invited.

>>2910779

You will always have problems with corruption, but you could argue that the scattered countries of Europe are forced to squabble and internally and grovel before business because they are too small to offer resistance by themselves. A more united Europe could more credibly tell the big corporations to go fuck themselves.

>>2911214
>A more united Europe could more credibly tell the big corporations to go fuck themselves.
Key word could. EU puts big corporations always before its citizens. Case studies: TTIP and CETA. They usually berate and tell corporations to fuck themselves to seem like the good guys, but they put corporations first in agreements where it matters.

>>2906856
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8224/european-union-support

>>2911208
> If Concerned Mums for Animals had lobbying budget of 1mrd €, they absolutely would've sat at TTIP negotiation table
What are you basing this claim on?

>if Citizen activist groups weren't specifically banned from being invited.
And this one? I haven't heard aout them being "banned" from the table.

Also, are Concerned Mums for Animals sitting on the negotiation table of trade agreements in literally any other government of the world? Do they sit on the US' table for TTIP?
If not, why complain about this just in the EU?

>>2911817
>rightwing thinktank which is best known for inaccurate reporting and plainly fully made up claims
Post academic journal articles from highly rated journals instead.

>>2911248
How do you tell apart a genuine "fuck you" from a "staged fuck you"?
Is there even a functional difference when it comes to law?
How do you tell apart corporations ending up being put first out of simply pragmatic necessity from doing it out of corruption?
What are you basing the claim that coprorations are being put first on?

>>2911248
They fuck up corporations using trade regulations. Corporations literally whined about how their products must meet the detailed EU standards, they must abide by fair competition laws, etc. Compared to the US and China (especially China) it's arguably one of the good stuffs they've done.

>>2896619
"United Europe" is an oxymoron and always will be.

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>>2896619
Only the Eternal Anglo can save us now

>>2907307
It doesn't exist yet.

>>2914034
Kek, nope

>>2911078
in your dream, Ivan

>>2896619
I'm American and I assumed you guys would become a kind of unified economic to rival to the USA as a union. Not really sure you did.

>>2896619
Very well

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>>2914702
Thank you for your support, Goy

Good idea executed by bad people.

>>2896619
Nah

>>2914604
Maybe you don't have it, but I do feel like having a European identity.

People mistakingly assume that for something to exist, eeryone must have it, but there are even people that don't feel like being part of a national identity, and I doubt you'd deny that natinal identities exist, so maybe you shouldn't categorically deny that European identity exists in some people.

>>2897807
>dealt with

Lel not really

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>>2907041
They're not. To assume that a St. Pidorsburg man would be in any way genetically related to a Dubrovnik man is dumb.

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>>2911072
That you have to resort to revisions of law really shows you are grasping at straws here. Furthermore, you completely omitted Norway and Iceland in your argument.
>>2911081
The EU has shown to consistently ignore results of national refernedums whenever it suits them. That is naturally undemocratic.
>>2911825
For one thing, the page he linked provided a report of Pew Research. For another, you are just being an asshole for outright dismissing sources as you personally do not like them.

I wish we weren't denbtland. Though that's an older problem.

>>2911831
>What are you basing the claim that coprorations are being put first on?
Squashing regulation, easier cobsolidation between giants in the USA and the EU, TTIP containing a section for extranational court where a corporation can demand reimbursement for lost profit if a country does not want to, for example, reduce its enviromental laws to nothing.
>>2912699
That is exactly why TTIP and CETA were conjured up.

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>>2896619

>>2916353
>That you have to resort to revisions of law really shows you are grasping at straws here.
Revisions of law are more expressive about the power to change laws than simply passing new laws.
Furthermore, I also addressed new laws in general.

>Furthermore, you completely omitted Norway and Iceland in your argument.
I don't know enough about them.

>The EU has shown to consistently ignore results of national refernedums whenever it suits them.
First of all, the EU CAN'T ignore the results of a national referendum, because the members are the Herren der Verträge.
Second, because the members are the HdV, it is the government of a member state "ignoring" a referendum that you should clamor about.
Third, in all cases people list when claiming this, the proposal was changed, albeit not always substantially, before being resubmitted. Remodeling or sometimes even just rewording a proposal to have another voting is totally legitimate. That governments change their mind when being faced with reality can be totally legitimate, too.

>That is naturally undemocratic.
People fetishize the instrument called "referendum" and direct democracy in general way too much. I find them to be much less democratic than the instruments indirect democracy has to offer.

>For one thing, the page he linked provided a report of Pew Research.
Link that report instead then.

>For another, you are just being an asshole for outright dismissing sources as you personally do not like them.
I dismiss the source because I claim that it has no authority, based on its history of outright lying.

>>2911831
>How do you tell apart a genuine "fuck you" from a "staged fuck you"?
A staged fuck you is "oh you just happened to take massive risk to your books by pushing loans in an illegal way or wreck the enviroment due to negligence, here, a small fine so you don't do it again"
>Is there even a functional difference when it comes to law?
Yes. A fuck you sends parties responsible to jail.
>How do you tell apart corporations ending up being put first out of simply pragmatic necessity from doing it out of corruption?
What kind of pragmatist refuses to listen to the stakeholders of said corporations, those being the citizens of EU, when negotiating trade deals?
>What are you basing the claim that coprorations are being put first on?
I addressed this here>>2916413

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>>2915043
>unified economic to rival to the USA as a union
the US had been afraid of a european superpower since the the post war period.

their strategy involved keeping it together so not to come across as overt rivals but supporting the Big five the size of which disrupts the balance and equality of the union preventing them from acting in unison and reducing the continent to a satellite state no more powerful than its largest constituent part.

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>>2916430
>First of all, the EU CAN'T ignore the results of a national referendum, because the members are the Herren der Verträge.
They can and have clearly done so and will persist in ignoring referendums. What planet are you living on?
>Second, because the members are the HdV, it is the government of a member state "ignoring" a referendum that you should clamor about.
The politicians of national governments of the EU and EU politicians derive all from the same elitist clique. Politicans break promises all the times and happily sign agreements disapproved by referendums. Recently it happened in the Netherlands after being assured that the Dutch people were heard and would be obeyed. Stop playing games.
>Third, in all cases people list when claiming this, the proposal was changed, albeit not always substantially, before being resubmitted. Remodeling or sometimes even just rewording a proposal to have another voting is totally legitimate. That governments change their mind when being faced with reality can be totally legitimate, too.
A vote for "no" is "no", not "yes, but...". This should be extremely simple except it is not for some.

>People fetishize the instrument called "referendum" and direct democracy in general way too much. I find them to be much less democratic than the instruments indirect democracy has to offer.
I have no idea what you are trying to convey here. What does "fetishize" even supposed to mean here? Also, I can discern no arguments here.

>Link that report instead then.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/euroskepticism-beyond-brexit/

>>2916413
>Squashing regulation,
The whole point of integrating trade zones is the removal of barriers to trade, which having a different regulation in each country is. These then get replaced by a uniform regulation, which may or may not have higher standards than before.
For example, the EU has extremely high consumer protection standards in general, which its members, before the integration, didn't have to this extent. Meanwhile, the US has higher consumer protection standards specifically in banking. Integrating a trade zone could give you both of these standards, or a worse new one, or a better new one.

Of course, you should also consider that people disagree what a "better" standard is. Is it better to have a three-pin power unit, which costs more and is incompatible with the whole rest of the world, but is safer, or is it better to have a more compatible and less resources requiring unit?

>easier cobsolidation between giants in the USA and the EU,
You can't just list everything that benefits corporations.
To support the claim that corporations are put _first_, you have to show that this is being done while sacrificing something else. What would that be?

>TTIP containing a section for extranational court where a corporation can demand reimbursement for lost profit if a country does not want to, for example, reduce its enviromental laws to nothing.
Extranational courts of arbitration are actually the NORM for trade disputes everywhere, and has been for half a century. That people got a hysterical fit about it in TTIP is hypocritical as fuck.
AFAIK, the Commission has also by now already proposed an international court for these settlements and it's just the Americans that don't want this. Blame the ones rejection such a proposal.

If a federal Europe had overtaken the US we could be living in an era of a progressive superpower that believes in global warming, worker's rights and fair market competition rather than the regressive one we were left with.

>>2916505
>They can and have clearly done so and will persist in ignoring referendums. What planet are you living on?
Show me the list of treatise that the EU forced to sign member states. Oh, there are none, because the EU can't do that without the member state doing it itself.

>The politicians of national governments of the EU and EU politicians derive all from the same elitist clique. Politicans break promises all the times and happily sign agreements disapproved by referendums.
So it's a malus of politicians in general, which would mean that it isn't a malus of the EU specifically. Blame political culture in general then, rather than acting as if this is all the EU's fault.

>A vote for "no" is "no", not "yes, but...". This should be extremely simple except it is not for some.
A vote for "no" is a vote for "no" for this specific proposal.
A proposal that has been changed is not the same proposal.
A vote for "yes" afterwards is a vote for "yes" for that revised proposal.

As you say: A "yes" is a "yes". This should be extremely simple, except it is not for some.

>I have no idea what you are trying to convey here. What does "fetishize" even supposed to mean here?
I prefer indirect democracy and have never liked a referendum being used to decide on policies. I don't like the tool itself.

>Also, I can discern no arguments here.
Neither did I intend to give one. It was a statement of opinion. Statements of opinions are simple noninferential passages, not arguments, and they aren't intended to be arguments.
We could go that route, but experience tells me that it's not a fruitful discussion.

Thank you for posting the PEW link.

>>2916456
>A staged fuck you is "oh you just happened to take massive risk to your books by pushing loans in an illegal way or wreck the enviroment due to negligence, here, a small fine so you don't do it again"
>Yes. A fuck you sends parties responsible to jail.
The EU has no competence in criminal law. If you want it to persecute, then give it the competence to do so.

Don't complain about them not doing something you don't allow them to do.

>>2916513
Do you seriously think a free trade agreement would bring about best of both worlds regulation to both the USA and EU if there is absolutely no one who gives a fuck about the normal consumers in either trade zone sitting at the negotiating table? I need to remind you again that CETA and TTIP had no citizen's organizations at the negotiating table. Only 3rd parties were the industry and the industry gives no fucks about consumers or workers because giving a fuck eats into quarterly earnings. My interests as a EU citizen are not the same as some American/German conglomerate.

>>2916564
>Do you seriously think a free trade agreement would bring about best of both worlds regulation to both the USA and EU
No, but I think it to be equally unlikely that it would bring about the worst of both worlds.
What would happen is that we would get the worst in some, the best in some, and in the end something both sides can live with. Good proposals are easier to find a consensus for than bad proposals that would outrage one side, by the way.

>if there is absolutely no one who gives a fuck about the normal consumers in either trade zone sitting at the negotiating table?
Whether that is even the case depends on how much you think the negotiators from the Commission have your interest in their heart, which depends on how much you think the guys you elected who appointed those negotiators have your interest in their heart.
But: This is the same scenario that would happen every time a free trade agreement is made without the EU. There's always the elected guy appointing a negotiator.

>>2916593
>Whether that is even the case depends on how much you think the negotiators from the Commission have your interest in their heart, which depends on how much you think the guys you elected who appointed those negotiators have your interest in their heart.
So none at all, especially since my country has no political power at all in the EU. One europhile yesman commissar appointed from our country is not actual power. Cool fucking union, ain't it?

>>2916593
>which depends on how much you think the guys you elected who appointed those negotiators have your interest in their heart.
I mean this applies to the ministers and civil servants for one's own country as well. If they are so untrustworthy that they would appoint EU commissioners to act against your own best interests, being outside of the EU won't help you much since they are appointing shitty local officials too. In fact being in the EU might protect you somewhat because other countries' elected representatives can appoint people to the EU commission who are looking out for the best interests of the whole union.

>>2916607
>especially since my country has no political power at all in the EU.Cool fucking union, ain't it?
Which country?

>So none at all,
> One europhile yesman commissar appointed from our country is not actual power.
It is an actual power in matters requiring unanimity.

Also, does he not have your interest in your heart? If not, then why would your government have appointed him?
If your government failed to appoint the right guy, then why don't you blame your government, rather than the EU? It was your government which decided on whom to send.

But that's the totally wrong way to think about the Commission in the first place. People often forget that they aren't the only people that matter. Yes, the Commission doesn't have YOUR interest in his heart. They aren't supposed to.
They are supposed to have EVERY EU CITIZEN'S interest in their heart.

People also tend to forget that the Commission isn't all there is to the EU. When the proposal for TTIP is finished, it has to go through the Parliament and Council, which both need to affirm it.

For it to be affirmed in the Parliament, majorities are needed. Majorities are gained through elections, which require you to consider the interests of your voting base. In the qualified voting system, small countries are actually disproportionally much considered, so that even small countries have a voice.
For it to be affirmed in the Council, there must be unanimity, because TTIP is a matter of foreign affairs, and those require unanimity. So, it is impossible for it to go through the Council, if your government doesn't say yes to it. That's an absolute power.

>>2916416
t.Britcuck

>>2911248
EU actually imposes just about the strongest environmental and labour protection laws on it's member's corps. The social market economy model is meant to prevent the "race to the bottom" that follows governments trying to have lower standards than other countries to attract more corporations, leading to countries competing to be the most shitastic to work in.

>>2896882

I agreed

>>2917340
Way to screw it with CETA and TTIP

>>2917406
the EU actually negotiated pretty well on TTIP for instance on leaving public resources, NHS etc, out of private hands

>>2896665
What. The UK never adopted the €. Whether it stays or leaves is irrelevant to the currency.

>>2911105
I don't think so. There are other members without the euro that don't seem like they're leaving, although I think that they'll adopt it, sooner or later.

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>>2901578

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>>2896619

>>2900744
Christcuck detected

>>2896882
>It's also the best way to preserve our cultures, contrary to what populists say.
>he actually believes this shit when the European Union was made in the mind of Kalergi who wanted all European ethnicities to become into one single mongrelised ehtnic nation

>>2900744
>Europe was the only Christian sector in Europe before Protestantism
you're an idiot

>>2896619
Good, but now they're shrinking their armies. It's like defending Knox with the paintballsqaud. My cous. wants to reinstate draft. This way they can at least defend their own with the shitty little army they're keeping. And Europe has been united under holy orders so were now having the secular version of lets say the holy roman empire

A confederation makes sense once the nigger and muslim invasion implodes which it will

>>2902370
>lmao western europe was almost totally isolated from russia until the 18th century
What did he mean by this?

>>2905949
this

>>2920779
Seems like /pol/ picked up Kalergi as a boogeyman.

>>2897524
Sadly no, they're still dealing with the fallout from 1991. Many underestimate how badly it fucked their country up. China is a bit of a meme as well but unlike Russia they are continuing to develop newer military tech and major projects such as aircraft carriers, 5th Gen fighters (of questionable quality, definitely, but they're managing to pump them out in numbers) while Russia's military technology is largely stagnant aside from a few small projects such as the Armata series and the PAK-Fa which at the moment are little more than vapourware. One of the major problems is that since the fall of Communism Russia's industry has been largely founded on raw materials whereas China is more focused on manufacturing (cheap shit, yes, but they're producing it in huge numbers and that gives them the workforce and factory space to do more than Russia can at the moment) and of course has a much larger population. Of course, both suffer from endemic corruption, significant minorities that could pose problems to the the central government, and a US hegemony focused on keeping them down.

They're both shit-tier dictatorships but Russia is struggling to stay together while China is struggling to establish a sphere of influence.

Unity that which is co-operation is always a good idea. However the way unity is implemented will ultimately produce the results!

Given that the people despite being so similar do differ in their believes and cultures the only unification worthy and long lasting will be via the rule of law.

If the law is not complex, and is logical, respectful and respected it can provide equality in every aspect from education to distribution of resources!

>>2896619
I think it could be done, but the EU is trying to rush it far too quickly. It's impossible to get over the huge disparity in culture and economic progress in a few decades.

Really it should have stayed as an economic agreement with an internal core of like-minded, prosperous western European (presumably continental since as we all know Britain likes to keep Europe at arms length, but could still make valuable contributions to economy and defence at this stage) nations, slowly aligning themselves to be compatible culturally, economically, and infrastructurally. Then a slow process of doing the same to the rest of Europe, on a step-by-step, nation-by-nation basis, making sure not to rush any nation's progress until success is near-certain.

The problem with a United Europe is that though politicians across Europe are largely on-board, people definitely aren't. Even without Brexit look at the low turnout to EU parliament elections, etc. Changing the attitudes of the wider population is probably the most important thing the EU should have been doing all this time, and they did a shite job of it. Even pulling 'The EU funded this' signs on infrastructure projects or trying to discourage the holier-than-thou Brussels bureaucrat image right from the start might have averted Brexit, but they failed to do that repeatedly.

>>2896619
.Sumerian city states
>produce civilization
>united Mesopotamian empire
>produces nothing of note at all
>Greek city states
>produce civilization
>unified Greece
>produces nothing of note at all
>Italian city states
>produce civilization
>unified Italian state
>produces nothing of note at all
>German city states
>produce civilization
>united Germany
>produces nothing of note at all

>>2921815
>Saxon kingdoms
>produce nothing of note at all
>united England
>build the world and everything in it.

>>2896634
Initially sure these different distinctions between people engender problems but usually overtime people tend to kinda forget and unite under an all-encompassing identity, like on the fact that they're all European for example.

>>2896634

This. Stop the paneuropean meme. You have nothing in fucking common.

>>2896634
That's how all those countries came to be in the first place.

Doing it one more time is possible.

>>2922795
more in common than with what's outside europe

>>2920788
>Europe was the only Christian sector in Europe

What did he mean by this.

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>>2921815
>unified Italian state
>produces the greatest empire in history, bedrock of Western Civilization.

FIXED

>>2919346
>>>/pol/

Nice idea, but too haste at implementing

>>2916416
Is EU just code word for Germany?

>>2907851
/thread

>>2924485
No. Germany only has 12.8% of the seats of parliament.

>>2916349
not him but please stop trying to bait so hard

>>2921780
>Changing the attitudes of the wider population is probably the most important thing the EU should have been doing all this time, and they did a shite job of it.
Doing that takes resources and makes you subject to accusations of spreading propaganda.

>>2896638
the same could be said for the US, no? too big to avoid such a radical division amongst the people whomst inhabit the land?

>>2907335
yeah but that's a local level. the eu is a giant bureaucratic state which makes policies with very little effort to tell the public

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>>2896619


This might as well happen, to piss off Muricans

>>2925735
>yeah but that's a local level.
No. Civil servants permeate the whole government.

Do you elect the Chief of Police? Do you elect the head of universities? Do you elect generals?

>he eu is a giant bureaucratic state
The EU has less bureaucrats than a middle-sized European city has officials (500k cities).
It's actually the opposite: a small and efficient body of 25k people responsible for 500.000.000 people.

>with very little effort to tell the public
The EU publicly releases a shitload of information, much more than your average government. You can look up any judgement, any directive, lobby lists, it fucking video streams (and archives) LIVE sittings in all bodies.

>>2927229
this

>>2927271
The comparison of unelected EU bureaucrats whose decisions have international ramifications to a chief of police for a city is absolutely retarded.
The EU as an entity dictates, it does not act as a functionary to other systems. That is why it is relatively so small, not because of some bullshit efficiency.
When you're pretty much untouchable as an entity but also want to keep a clean image while doing dirty shit of course you want to publish a bunch of supporting material. You want to publish so much that it seems impossible for things to be left out and why all of the mundane pointless bullshit that the EU undertakes it makes it quite easy to a white noise of publication to mask the bullshit.
You are either some deluded young european federalist tier retard or a fucking shill.

>>2927794
>The EU as an entity dictates
Way to move the goalpost. First you talk about "unelected EU bureaucrats", then you talk about the EU as a whole.

The whole rest of the post is worthless because of that.

>Islamic states of Europe

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>>2896619

>>2898326
t.fucking american with their shitty education

>"buh I'm nuht ahmerican"

>>2898198
>and that folks, is how you find, the burgers,
with their shitty education

Go back to school american,you ignorant fool

>>2921663
that's literally what he wanted to do, look it up

>>2900733
India fucking sucks though, they can't even build proper infrastructure and all the religious groups hate each other

>>2896619
bad

>>2896619
>Ukraine
>Belarus

>>2928458
And there's literally nothing wrong with that.

>no brexit

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2017-40219030

>>2929095
I don't even have a reaction pic to describe my disgust with your post

>>2929108
Fine with me. You're entitled to your shit opinion.

>>2929112
whatever you say, Schlomo

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>>2898198

>/his/ - History & Humanities

>>2922795

Well they're getting assfucked or will be assfucked by foreign superpowers because they're small and not as powerful as before. Unity is a good safeguard against this.

>>2896619
If it was ruled by white nationalists it would be good, but it's not so... it sucks.

>>2898198
>all the responses are butthurt europeans
Ask a Chinese person or an Indian and they'll tell you they're all pretty much the same

>>2929179
>muh white nationalism

Fucking Americans, I swear.

Definitely happen

>>2896619
They should have had a system of free internal trade, mutual defense, and unified foreign policy. Basically US Federal Goverment lite. But having each state conduct their own foreign policy and find their own military robs the union of decisive action.

Union of European States when?

>>2930365
Hopefully soon.

t. anon who lives on the eastern fringe.