Critically Assessing Islam/Traditionalism

>>2885007
Religion of any type is for the weak

>>2885044
If a religion was shown to be true would you still reject it on the grounds that it "is for the weak"?

>>2885007
Islam is satanic. The angel speaking to Mohammad was not Gabriel. It was satan lying about his identity. Because that's what satan, and islam by extension, do. They lie.

>>2885079
So Satan lied to Mohammed by telling him that there is only one God and that he should worship God alone, and that Satan is man's main obstacle and that he should resist Satan? Interesting theory.

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>>2885007
>Shi'a Islam is more reliable than Sunni
Are you fucking stupid or what?

Those Shi'as literally harm themselves with swords and knives because MUH ALI

they also practically worship idols which is the most unislamic thing

>>2885007
>"this hadith says this"
Yeah, about that though. From a purely philosophical viewpoint, the Quaranists that reject the Hadith seem to be the only Muslims that make sense. Religious texts written more than two centuries after Mohammad don't seem in line with "the most reliably transmitted tradition." Some hardcore Quaranists go so far as to say The Hadith is the work of Satan. However, I would not recommend you join that branch. The majority of Muslims label avowed Quaranists as apostates.

>>2885090
No, satan lied to Mohammad by telling him allah is God; that Ba'al is God.

God is a title; that title does not belong to Ba'al/Chemosh/allah/satan.

It takes a real fool to not know that there is only one God.

It takes a bigger fool to think Mohammad is his prophet.

>>2885105
It's all the work of satan.

satan has always wanted to be worshiped as God.

>>2885007
>I'm practically on the verge of converting
You cant be saved
Only solution is to kys

also, here's a little thing about Hadiths OP

There are maaaaaany hadiths, which means they are not 100% waterproof, In fact i'm absolutely sure a respectable percentage of them is miscarried or simply false (Also, historially there were many smear campaigns against muhammed by creating false hadiths during the 7th-10th centuries)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC4TuYrSNJs

TLDR always revert to the quran before the hadiths.
and ONLY follow *mutawater* (essential, trusted, authentic) hadiths

>>2885103
>Those Shi'as literally harm themselves with swords and knives because MUH ALI
It's not required, and it's an expression of mourning. What's wrong with it besides it not fitting your personal tastes?

>idols
What are you referring to.

>>2885105
I don't say why hadith should be categorically rejected. There is a methodology for determining which hadith are reliable or not. Quran itself says that one must follow the Prophet's examples and commands. So Quranism doesn't make much sense.

>>2885111
>allah is God; that Ba'al is God.
I'm not going to insult your intelligence by asking you if you really believe this, right? oh wait, you do, you historical illiterate

First of all, Baal was a phoenician god, i don't even know how the fuck you keep bundling him with satan is beyond me

Second, Muhammed in fact fought the pre-islamic people who worshipped baal, people like abu jahl

>>2885127
>nd it's an expression of mourning. What's wrong with it besides it not fitting your personal tastes?
The fact that you literally stab and harm yourself despite the quran saying "la tuadu nafsakom ila attahluka" (Do not lead yourselves to harm)

Shias are quite literally the Emos of islam

>What are you referring to.
The fact that shias worship saints despite it being heavily unislamic and many many of them worship ali himself or the 12 imams etc

>>2885126
But you see, I consider the Imams of Shi'i Islam to be trustworthy authorities and exemplary individuals. So why shouldn't I follow trust their assessments on the issue?

>>2885007
>Shi'a Islam is more reliable than Sunni

Top kek

>>2885150
Just please listen to the entirety of the video

>>2885007
shias tend to self-harm and that doesn't make sense. They also keep longer fasts than sunni muslims.
It's harder to be a shia than to be a sunni.
I suggest to become a sunni.

Good job on converting. Be careful though. It has a lot of baggage and prejudice in the west.

>>2885105
You cannot reject all of the hadiths as unreliable without rejecting the Quran since most of the narrators of hadith are the very same people who passed down the Quran itself. This is why the Quranists are considered apostates by nearly all Muslims

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>>2885007
>3. Islam is the most reliably transmitted tradition.

this is simply not the case.

the historicity of the quran and the integrity of current texts from the original material is *VERY MUCH* in question. You just won't hear it mentioned too loudly by mainstream academics because they're afraid of reprisals, be they institutional attacks on their careers or physical violence.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/01/what-is-the-koran/304024/

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/02/arts/scholars-are-quietly-offering-new-theories-of-the-koran.html

>Christoph Luxenberg, a scholar of ancient Semitic languages in Germany, argues that the Koran has been misread and mistranslated for centuries. His work, based on the earliest copies of the Koran, maintains that parts of Islam's holy book are derived from pre-existing Christian Aramaic texts that were misinterpreted by later Islamic scholars who prepared the editions of the Koran commonly read today.

>So, for example, the virgins who are supposedly awaiting good Islamic martyrs as their reward in paradise are in reality ''white raisins'' of crystal clarity rather than fair maidens.

https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/quran-historical-criticism

>>2885161
I mean I just watched the scrolling text in the beginning and I already agree so is there any point in watching the rest? It seems to me that those are the same criticisms Shi'a use against Sunni.

>>2885179
The arabic version of the quran can't be mistranslated so it hasn't been changed and is reliable.
checkmate

>>2885179
Thanks, I'll look into that. I've been meaning to look into those kinds of criticisms. In any case, even if you reject the absolute reliability of the Quran, would you reject the proposition that it is the MOST reliable, i.e. more reliable than other traditions? That seems to be the case for me. Other traditions have far greater transmission issues, even if we do accept for the sake of argument that Islam also has its issues.

>>2885189
>It seems to me that those are the same criticisms Shi'a use against Sunni.
No not exactly.

Shi'ites actually use those shitty unauthentic hadiths to diss the sahaba, whereas competent scholars will disregard most hadiths (because they're practically unsourceable) and only follow mutawatir hadiths because they're 100% authentic

>>2885229
If you have resources dealing with these issues (links, book reccomendations) I would appreciate it. Not that interested in youtube vids.

>>2885242
https://www.slideshare.net/nsnirjhor/a-collection-of-mutawatir-hadith

>>2885210
there are words in and segments of the Qur'an that are not even Arabic, and are incomprehensible even to speakers of classical Arabic.

It doesn't help that there were, at one point, many different, often conflicting, versions of the qur'an. Most of those were destroyed, though.

>>2885255
yeah because they were false

>>2885056
it isn't true, brvh

>>2885255
>there are words in and segments of the Qur'an that are not even Arabic
Care to cite them?

>>2885253
Thanks, but isn't that just a collection of hadith? I meant resources arguing for your point of view.

>>2885007
>converting to Islam
It boggles my mind that there are people this genuinely stupid in the world.

I look forward to reading about your inevitable suicide bombing, after you decide Shia isn't hard-core enough and you join Islamic State.

>>2885217
I would reject that proposition as well. We really have little to no hard evidence of what exactly went down during Mohammad's lifetime, if Mohammad the man described in the Qur'an even existed in a form comparable to the text. The idea that the Quran has been "perfectly" preserved, or even relatively well preserved from day 1 is nonsense. The Qur'an that has been handed down to today is one of a few competing qurans that were compiled after Mohamad's death, and spurred by the death in battle of a number of his companions who had memorized verses.

These men died without transmitting information, so there's possibly quite a lot that has been lost. Furthermore, when the "final" qur'ans were being compiled, many qur'anic texts that contradicted the main bodies being developed were burned or otherwise destroyed in order to prevent "confusion".

A lot of the "revelatory" texts that DID survive themselves are eerily reminiscent of heretical Christian works that were floating around the region shortly before Mohammad, and may have been plagiarized by Mohammad himself, or accidentally mixed in by his followers, thinking they were originally handed down from Mohammad.

>>2885281
http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/hadith_not_from_prophet_(P1177).html

>>2885007
OP do yourself a favor and convert to Alevi. Actually you will have to convert to Bektashi since conversion to Alevi is not allowed.

Alevi = Shia Islam + Shamanism + Buddhism + Zoroastrianism + Christianity

>>2885256
I'm sure the guys who burned them wanted you to think that.

>>2885301
>OP do yourself a favor and convert to Alevi
Congratulations on shiiirk and kuuuufr

>>2885111
check'd
also op is a cuck

>>2885313
Thank you.

Now go back to your 6th century pigsty ya filthy arab

>>2885295
As far as the unreliability of the Quran I cannot comment since I haven't looked into it in detail, but I intend to. Common sense seems to reject that opinion though.

As far as plagiarizing heretical sects, well heretical is a pretty loaded term. Who says they didn't have the right ideas (more or less), whereas mainstream "Pauline" Christianity is deviated?

>>2885295
>We really have little to no hard evidence of what exactly went down during Mohammad's lifetime
that's wrong
muhammed's life was one of the most document lives ever, and mecca was one of the biggest trading routes in the known world

>>2885321
there's nothin more shit than someone who mixes up all religions and calls it a day because he can't make up his mind and pick one

>>2885295
Arabs were extremely serious about preserving the quran though.

Honestly, I really don't get the appeal of Islam to Guenonian perennialists at all.

It's yet another Abrahamic sect that popped up one day in the middle of nowhere in a region already heavily influenced by outside ideas. It's not even that fucking old..

It claims to have a monopoly on truth, and advocates the violent removal of polytheistic religions and traditions. It's all about revealed truths, nothing primordial about that shit, other than the claim to universality common to almost every religious system.

>>2885332
Give me some reliable non-Muslim sources about Mohamad's life. Hell, even """reliable""" contemporary Muslims sources will do

I'd also like to see some evidence for your contention that Mecca was one of the biggest trading routes in the "known" (by whom?) world

I'll wait.

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>>2885369
>and advocates the violent removal of polytheistic religions and traditions
stop this meme

the quran clearly states that "let there be no compulsion in religion"

>>2885326
I use the word simply to indicate that they were ties to groups not part of the main Christian church that would go on to the modern day.

>>2885346
they probably should have started writing it down during mohamad's lifetime then.

>>2885390
Arabs were good at memorization

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>>2885369
Wll you obviously ought to examine the religion more closely. Guenon, Schuon, Lings, etc are onviously very intelligent individuals. They wouldn't have accepted it haphazardly or without thought. So perhaps your impression of Islam is fundamentally mistaken. Try to research into its beliefs with an open mind.

>>2885381
> “Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven... And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.” Translation from the Noble Quran (8:38-39)

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." (9:5)

>>2885394
sure dude, I'm sure they told you that too

>>2885394
This is kinda anecdotal, but according to Marmaduke Pickthall the Quran is a remarkably easy text to memorize.

>>2885408
For arabs it is because it has alot of poetry

>>2885345
>Not mixing the best of religions
>Believing in a fucking Arab moon god

>>2885397
I'm not really a fan of Guenon or Schuon, but I was once very much a follower of the perennial school, especially Evola, and myself had a period where I strongly considered becoming a Shia Muslim.

I really wanted to approach Islam seriously, but the more I looked and read into it the more nonsensical it seemed.

I appreciate the aims of the perennialists, but I think they were telling themselves things about Islam that simply were not true, probably spurred on by disillusionment with the western traditions and an orientalist fascination with the old world.

>>2885437
what's wrong with being disillusioned with western traditons and liking the old world?

>>2885390
The early arabs were extremely good memorizers because their only form of art was poetry

>>2885437
Reminder that shi'ism was started by a Zoroastrian jew

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_ibn_Saba%27

>>2885437
Well for me there are several points in favor of Islam:
1. The Quran: this is anecdotal, based on my own experience, but having read the Quran I concluded that it has a definite Revelatory character, that it could not be a merely human production.
2. Reliability of transmission, and trustworthiness and exemplary character of the Imams.
3. It's explicit concern with Truth in the metaphysical/absolute sense. There is a difference between saying "our religion is the true one" (most religions claim this) and saying "our religion is that which is concerned with Truth as such" (Islam). One could argue that this applies to other Eastern religions, and I wouldn't dispute that, byt I find, so far in my research, that Islam is both more reliable (point 2) and that it is more "complete" (it takes all aspects of human life into account in a very satisfactory manner).

These are largely a matter of feeling and opinion though. I would say to you that as long as your primary concern is with Truth as such you are on the right path.

>>2885447
because I think they had orientalist fantasies in their head about ancient traditions in the spooky old world, hidden away from the corruptions of modernity. I think Guenon had some delusions about Islam and the orient that prevented him from looking at it objectively. This, of course, worsened by the low quality of western scholarship about Islam at the time.

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>>2885481
very good and elaborate post.

>>2885292
t. Shlomo Shekelstein

>>2885497
you're not helping your case by appealing to /pol/, abu

>>2885481
people these days believe that religions are a series of rituals that you believe in and perform and all other aspects of human life have nothing to do with them.
There's lots of people that hate the fact that islam says you can use violence to defend yourself, while these very same people believe that militaries should exist.
Islam has an opinion on almost everything and many of those beliefs are what populists believe today.

>>2885524
nobody gives a shit that the Qur'an says you can defend yourself. People dislike the fact that the Qur'an advocates offensive violence.

>>2885549
But it doesn't really.

>>2885566
Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..."

>>2885549
What's wrong with offensive violence. Even liberals support it.

>>2885582
All those passages imply that fighting is something that is necessary and is a part of human nature.

Islam doesn't say that you cannot conquer territories. But it does say you can't force people to accept Islam and you shouldn't kill people that are subdued and repent for their crimes (waging war against muslims).

People dislike that Islam mentions fighting at all meanwhile they vote for war and send their warplanes to foreign territories to bomb the shit out of them. All democratic nations support war because they vote for governments that carry out offensive violence.
Seems kind of hypocritical to call Islam barbaric doesn't it?

>>2885582
Read their whole suras dipshit

next time make an effort if you want to shit on something

>>2885608
None of those say shit about human nature.
They are advocating active violence against people who refuse to accept Islam. I don't know what the fuck keeps you from picking up on the meaning of "fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them."

I mean, fuck, 9:29 is one of the last verses Mohammad supposedly dropped.

>>2885612
I've read 9, I see nothing here that changes my mind.

>>2885629
>Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
what do you think this means?
It means fighting is in human nature. Fighting determines too much of the course of the world. Did peaceful people conquer all the territories in the past?
Peaceful people who can't defend themselves with violence are eventually conquered by others that are willing use the guns. How do you think your european ancestors conquered all those colonies? It was by force.
Then you call islam barbaric?

>>2885653
It's interesting that the Quran exposes those who deny or oppose it as being "hypocrites". The Quran is pretty spot on tb'h. A lot of the arguments against Islam are straight up lies or hypocritical sophistry.

>>2885664
Why would the Quran not refer to itself as the truth?
Should it call itself an alternative fact?
When a religion calls itself the truth, it's obvious that it considers non-believers hypocrites

>>2885664
>our religion says violence and rape is ok so at least we're not hypocrites :3

and then people look at me like I'm crazy when I say Islam is a satanic cult

>>2885653
What makes you think I'm European, or endorse the actions of colonialists?

Fun fact- that verse, 2:216, comes from a time when Mohamad was trying to talk his followers into raiding merchant caravans.

Yes, Islam is barbaric. Yes, ideological savagery and violence is barbaric. The violent removal of native peoples from most of the world was barbaric as well.

This kind of behavior leads men to reduce themselves to the level of animals. It's disgusting and degenerate in nature.
My home board is /k/, I'm fine with people using violence to defend themselves. The Qur'an advocates for way more than just defensive violence.

>>2885683
My point is that they actually ARE hypocrites. When Western liberals accuse Islam of war-mongering when they themselves belong to war-mongering and economicaly exploitative nations that's pure hypocrisy. There is a lot of hypocrisy vis a vis Islam from its critics. It's endemic.

>>2885692
Islam doesn't advocate violence for the spread of Islam. There is a verse saying there is no compulsion in religion. It can't forcibly use weapons to force people to convert to islam or die.

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>>2885697
Western liberals don't criticize Islam lmao what the fuck are you on about?

Do you think it's alright for you to act like niggers and kill people who don't convert to your religion or give you their money just because you admit to being a nigger barbarian?

>>2885697
It's OK though, liberal religious dogma allows for hypocrisy, so they're not actually being hypocrites, and it's actually the Muslims who are hypocrites for not following a religion that allows hypocrisy.

>>2885719
Terrorism is wrong. But the west is at war with the middle east. Terrorist attacks happen for that reason. Do you seriously not expect any collateral damage?

>>2885715
These people think of themselves as authorities on Islam despite having no qualification. If they were sincere they would consult actual authorities first, but they don't care. When I wanted to learn about Christianity I attended Church, consulted a priest, and read their books. I'd like to see these hypocrites give the same courtesy to Islam, but it's unlikely it will ever happen.

>>2885719
modern conservatives still fall under the umbrella of "classical liberalism". They're two sides of the same coin.

>>2885715
Even if the bit about "muh no compulsion" WEREN'T abrogated (it is), Muslims are explicitly told to carry out violence against non-Muslims, including Christians and Jews, until they "submit". Whether that means "submission" as in conversion to Islam, or submission as in giving their money to Muslims, it's still offensive violence.
Because the only way to escape jizya is to become a Muslim, it is quite clearly designed to economically pressure, that is, compel, non-Muslims to convert by putting heavy taxes on their shoulders.

>>2885652
Illiterate

those verses talk about story, they're not a commandment, it talks about the war between the pagans and the muslims

>>2885731
The west is not at war with the middle east. The middle east is not a unified faction.

The west is at war with various kinds of salafist and wahabbist, as well as the Iranian-led shia and Ba'athists.

At the same time, the west is supporting other salafists and wahabbists, and arming them alongside monarchs and secular nationalists.

the west doesn't even really exist anyway, though. and the violent actions of government officials not voted on by the general public do not give "middle easterners" free license to kill random civilians.

which is exactly what Muslims do. Muslims never tried to assassinate John McCain, but they sure do love bombing and stabbing innocent bystanders, don't they?

Not that I would expect nigger barbarians to know the difference.

>>2885692
>The violent removal of native peoples from most of the world was barbaric as well.
I hope you're not fucking serious

The north african berbers converted to islam peacefully when trade began and arabs began buidling cities there, like qayrawan

Same thing for people of the caucasus and the steppes

>>2885735
Nigger I'm quoting your shitty book right fucking now. I never voted for any war, either.

>>2885715
>There is a verse saying there is no compulsion in religion.

The last 1400 years puts the lie to that, now, doesn't it. Convert or Die.

You should watch some imam apologist rage when they are asked what they would do to their son or daughter if they became a born again Christian.

No compulsion my ass.

>>2885768
I'm referencing the genocide and enslavement of native americans by Europeans.

>>2885140
Hubal is the Ba'al of the Moabites, not the Phoenicians. Hubal is Mohammad's father's family god, that his father was named after.

Hubal = HaBaal = the Ba'al of the Moabites.

I have yet to find something true that I will not believe.

>>2885769
Selective quotation is not a valid methodology for deriving Islamic law that has ever been recognized by an Islamic scholar. Ask an actual living Muslim scholar if you want to know what Islam is about. In fact, ask a few so you can get some variety of opinions. Maybe you'll start to appreciate just how complex a matter it is.

>>2885121
It's pure taqiyya. The OP is a hardcore muslim, likely getting paid to post on the internet to spread acceptance of his vicious religion.

>>2885748
Submission doesn't mean forcible conversion.
It also doesn't mean that you're forced to give your money.
Jizya tax is protection money. Living in muslim rule used to be a privilege and people had to pay for it unless they were muslims.
When you pay the jizya tax, you will be defended by muslims against people trying to kill you.

>>2885326
It cannot be more divergent.

Bible: Jesus is God, crucified, died on the cross, rose from the dead.

Quran: Jesus is not God, was not crucified, did not die, did not rise from the dead.

>>2885776
Oh, sorry, carry on

>>2885493
Men who will slit your throat if you do not believe them are not of "exemplary character".

>>2885773
Leaving Islam when you're an adult, makes you a traitor.
You think Imams would be pleased if their sons or daughters became Christians especially after what Constantine did to Christianity?

>>2885111
>>2885316
Hello, newfriends! This board has a higher level of discourse than most other boards on 4chan, especially /pol/, which is often viewed as our "sister board". Simply spamming baseless claims/memes about the subject of the thread is against board culture here. Kindly bring a higher level of discourse to this board when posting.

>>2885783
>that his father was named after.
what?

abdulah, means human of god
abd=human
u=of
lah=god

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>>2885787
I'm not talking about Islamic law. I'm talking about whether or not your book advocates for violence- it does. And I know for a fact that there are Islamic scholars who agree that offensive violence is acceptable in Islam, because they run about half of the middle east at this point. They also would probably try to kill you for denying this.

>>2885805
When did an Imam do that?

>>2885807
Then there is compulsion in religion, and the quran is false.

>>2885805
Wrong again mate, even the messenger himself never claimed to be a perfect example, even he made mistakes which were the reason god gave him the surah of abasa

>>2885795
>Living in muslim rule used to be a privilege and people had to pay for it unless they were muslims.


ahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahah holy shit

this is some serious cognitive dissonance

>>2885809
abd means slave/servant doesn't it?

>>2885808

Hubal = main god of the Quraish and the kaaba.
Allah = main god of the Quraish and the kaaba.

How good are you at math?

>>2885795
>you will be defended by muslims against people trying to kill you.
You mean other Muslims?

>>2885810
kee relying on yourself, clearly you're an expert.

>>2885810
Violence is necessary and inevitable in many different conditions.
Islam doesn't deny this. Islam says people will have to fight to survive, even if they do not like it.

>>2885817
since Christians don't believe in violence, it's not very safe to live in Christian rule is it?
Christians can't defend themselves

>>2885809
The name of Muhammad's father was 'Abd-Allah ('Abdullah, the slave or worshipper of Allah). The esteem in which Allah was held by thepre-Islamic Makkans as the creator and supreme provider and the one to be invoked in time of special peril may be inferred from such koranic passages as 31 : 24, 31; 6 : 137, 109; to : 23. Evidently he was the tribal deity of the Quraysh. (History Of The Arabs, Philip K. Hitti, 1937, p 96-101)

>>2885810
>Pewresearch
>Taqqiya
memespouting.exe

First of all, taqqiya is used by Shi'ites and shiites only

Second of all pewresearch, that joke of a poll, polled only 27000 muslims (that's about 0.001% of the muslim population) and then they projected it into the 1.7 billion muslims with practically no confidence level or interval

TLDR your memes are shit and you should do more effort
>>2885818
Nope, that's Abeed

>>2885812
What year has gone by where one has not?

>>2885823
Okay you're a troll.
Just because muslims are in a weak state right now thanks to the muslim version of the holocaust (wars in the middle east), doesn't mean muslims always used to kill each other for no reason in the past.

>>2885829
Allah is an arabic word for "god"

even arab christians and jews call god "allah"

>>2885832
Imam = the 12 Imams of Shi'i Islam

wrt that particular post.

>>2885813
A person that was born a muslim, isn't a real muslim till he realizes that he's a muslim when he becomes an adult. But once you've realized the truth, it's heresy to denounce it. How can a religion be true if people leave it on a whim?

>>2885826
Are you even a Muslim, or just some stormfag who wants to see roasties get put in their place?

Islam isn't some parable about human nature telling man he has to fight to survive. The Quraysh were having no trouble surviving. Islam advocates violence for the sake of Islam, not for some vague existential survival of the fittest bullshit.

As for your point about safety under Christian rule, there's clearly a whole lot of shit you're not aware of. Which again makes me question whether you're actually a Muslim.

>>2885834
They literally did that though.

Is this bait?

>>2885848
Islam doesn't advocate violence for the sake of Islam and it says that clearly.
That's just your interpretation of Islam's stance on fighting.

>>2885856
no they didn't. Because otherwise they wouldn't have made the ottoman empire. Big empires can't be sustained on random killing and fear.
If muslims killed each other randomly all the time, how did they put up a good fight against your holy roman empire for so many years?
Muslims would have gone extinct if they died by the millions every day.

>>2885719
>Western liberals don't criticize Islam

They literally do it all the time. It's the Western conservatives that constantly praise Islam as the last traditionalist religion

>>2885056
Yes.

>>2885871
You know the Ottoman empire got as big as it did by conquering other Muslims, right?

Muslim states have had shitloads of religious wars between one another throughout history. They've also had shitloads of nonreligious wars between one another.

>>2885692
>Yes, Islam is barbaric. Yes, ideological savagery and violence is barbaric.

But that's what makes Islam such a great religion. I hope you will outgrow "Enlightenment" values and realize that there is nothing wrong with barbarism

>>2885880
is this bait or have you only ever spoken to westerners on /pol/?

>>2885895
Muslim religious wars are unfortunate and take the longest because Allah is on both sides

>>2885897
Stop projecting. I'm not a faggot liberal either. But you don't have to be a follower of the enlightenment to look down on nigger behavior.

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(33:53) Believers, enter not the houses of the Prophet without his permission,95nor wait for a meal to be prepared; instead enter when you are invited to eat,96 and when you have had the meal, disperse. Do not linger in idle talk.97 That is hurtful to the Prophet but he does not express it out of shyness; but Allah is not ashamed of speaking out the Truth. And if you were to ask the wives of the Prophet for something, ask from behind a curtain. That is more apt for the cleanness of your hearts and theirs.98 It is not lawful for you to cause hurt to Allah's Messenger,99 nor to ever marry his wives after him.100 Surely that would be an enormous sin in Allah's sight.

what did he mean by this?

>>2885910
How the shit is that even possible.

>>2885933
Good grooming

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What did she mean by this?

>>2885968
looks more like fanfiction than canon. But it's okay. Many of the prophets followers had memorized all the verses by heart.

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tfw Mohammad really just wanted a mommy gf

>>2885977
this is wrong. Delete this. Probably a very weak hadith

>>2885987
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0taTSaUO2hM

http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/. For the love of God

>>2886025
am I going on a watchlist for opening that link?

>>2885007
>>I'm practically on the verge of converting
Dont touch my freedom or I will eat you.

Sahih International: The bedouins are stronger in disbelief and hypocrisy and more likely not to know the limits of what [laws] Allah has revealed to His Messenger. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.

>>2885968
>>2885977
Hohohoho

See OP this is what i was talking about? dirty majoosis using Weak fabricated hadiths

>>2886107
Yes, must not impugn character of 54 year old psychotic murderer and false prophet who marries 6 year old.

>>2886125
anything wrong with loli?

>>2886125
Using retarded shit that you consciously know is wrong is against the post quality of a history board, moron

>who marries 6 year old.

>"“Asma died in 73 A.H. (After Hijra or Emigration to Medina) at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha.” This would make Asma 28 years of age in 1 A.H. and Aisha 18 years old. Then in year 2 A.H. year of the consummation of her marriage to The Holy Prophet Aisha should have 19 years old""

Christian Palestinian Arab currently living in Israhell here. I don't care about Islam, but when the push comes to shove. I will stand with my fellow Arab Muslims, rather than the Zionist Apartheid state that Israhell. The ''people'' who rule this country are unworthy of the title ''Human''.

>>2885787
I'll just go ask all of those nice guys in Saudi Arabia, our Greatest Ally, for their opinion on it. I'm sure they'll back your peaceful interpretation of it.

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>>2887076
>Saudi Arabia

>>2885830
>Second of all pewresearch, that joke of a poll, polled only 27000 muslims (that's about 0.001% of the muslim population) and then they projected it into the 1.7 billion muslims with practically no confidence level or interval

That's how polls work.
With about a thousand respondent your poll can accurately describe the state of mind of a country if your quotas are accurate.

>>2888050
Yeah. Those Polls sure were accurate in the recent western elections.

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>>2888069
Indeed they were.

>>2888075
I really hope you don't think Macron's victory is something that is good. He is a Neo-Liberal who supports Muslims Immigration in the West and in his own words said ''France must learn to deal with Terrorism'' Him winning instead of Le Pen is something that is actually good for Muslims and Islam.

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>>2888095
>polls aren't accurate
>yes, they are
>but <irrelevant babble about the results the polls predicted>

>>2888050
Retard. like i said in my earlier post they had absolutely no confidence level or interval, which means it's no more than blind speculation

>>2888095
...should they not learn how to deal with terrorism?

>>2888102
I'm not the same person you were replying to, you retarded waste of sperm.

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>>2885007
Greetings, as a reverent Sufi, I must assess some points and statements in your post. Bear with me.

>conversion to Islam
In Islam one does not converse, only reverse, for it is believed that every human was born a Muslim until a certain age.

>Islam is the most reliable source
This is true, however be wary of false information, people will often refer to Hadiths or stories lacking authenticity.

>Shi'a Islam is more reliable
This is of course your statement, and I will respect it. However, their teachings are misleading. You may have heard of the term 'Taqiyyah', which is a Shiite term. It defines as being able to lie and say whatever you want, in the name of your religion. This makes 'The 4 Books' a sceptical source.

If it is metaphysics and philosophy you seek, then I advise Sufism and not Shi'a. I hope this helped, and I welcome you with open heart to our religion.

>>2888104
You mean that because they didn't display to you the confidence levels, those don't exists? The margin of error for a 1000 respondents sample is generally around +/- 3.5 pts if the quotas are accurate enough and the weighting isn't completely fucked.

>>2885007
Not shitposting, but real question. Why have you decided to convert? Do you have interest in esthetic side of Islam - minarets, clothing, beards, deserts? Or you have some mystical feeling that this religion is right? Or you think that you must come as a Muslim to afterlife? Are you ready to keep wearing Western clothes and abstain from growing beard after conversion? This is serious question.

>>2888114
How is this relevant?
You are intervening in a conversation, spout crap that isn't relevant to the conversation you're invervening in, and then get into whiny baby mode when people are calling out the fact that you're spouting nonsense?
I don't give a shit about Macron's policy, I said the polls were accurate and they were.
Kys.

>>2885111
Allah is God in Arabic and Aramaic dumbass

>>2888127
>>2888127
Not that guy but if you expect a decent confidence level for 1.5 billion people you're legitimately stupid
also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_interval#Philosophical_issues

>>2888139
I agree with you that the Polls are accurate you dumb cunt. Just delude yourself that Macron is in any way, shape, or form Anti-Muslim or Anti-Islam.

>>2888149
Don't*

>>2888144
I can expect a decent confidence level on a country of several millions individuals, which is the level the polling was made on.

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>>2888106

>>2888149
>I agree with you that the Polls are accurate you dumb cunt.
You never talked or implied that in any way, shape or form as you only talked about Macron's policies.

>Just delude yourself that Macron is in any way, shape, or form Anti-Muslim or Anti-Islam.
Again, non-relevant to the conversation. At this point I can only assume you suffer from severe learning disabilities.

>>2888156
Not an argument.
Trump said in his Manchester "loser speech":
>"And there will be more of them"
Using the reasoning you made for macaroni, this means we can also assume Trump wont do anything against terrorism because he says there will be more of them regardless?

>>2885910
The end result of this retardation.

>>2885844
>How can a religion be true if people leave it on a whim?
If Islam claims to be true then that's something it has to provide an actual answer for. And silencing questions is not answering.

>>2888153
Read the link i posted

>>2888208
that's just what the beduins believe

>I've been taking a serious interest in Islam lately and I'm practically on the verge of converting.

I'm also very interested in several religions and I even admire them in some ways, but that doesn't make me any more likely to convert. They all provide poor evidence for their ridiculous claims and none of them can actually prove that their god exists. I can't even think about a horse with a woman's head without cracking up, but islamic texts, like all other religious texts, are full of ridiculous shit like that. I know you don't care for these arguments but it's just too hard to ignore.

>>2888120
>Taqiyyah', which is a Shiite term. It defines as being able to lie and say whatever you want, in the name of your religion.
that's not what it means and it's mainly an ismaili thing

what sufi order you belong to? if youre allowed to say, that is

>>2888131
I outlined my main line of argument in the OP. Once you buy into the premises of Traditionalism its pretty much a straight track to Islam, although some Traditionalists didnt take that route but most did

>>2888120
>Sufi
hahahah grave dancer

Is islam a religion of peace or not?

>>2890596
There's no such thing as a religion of peace unless you religion is truly pacifist aka jainism or buddhism

>>2885007
Tl;dr, I wanna join a death cult.

>>2885171
>shias tend to self-harm and that doesn't make sense. They also keep longer fasts than sunni muslims.
First, the self-harm is a cultural practice that only some Shia do, not a religious practice, and as such is not required.
Second, it is fucking retarded to pick what religion to follow based on what's "easiest".

>>2885902
>"girls are degenerate"
>"stop watching porn"
>"make babies, stop using contraception"
>"there are no rules anymore because of liberals"
>"premarital sex is not okay"
>"race war is okay"
>"being atheist is not okay"
>"being gay is not okay"
/pol/ is ideologically muslim's best friends

>>2890644
>Buddhism
>Pacifist
Why the fuck do westerners keep giving Buddhists a free pass? Japan had multiple Buddhist warrior cults. Tibet had a military that regularly invaded its neighbors (what China did is completely justified if you know the history). And don't even get me started on Sri Lanka!

>>2891241
Rohingya? What are those?

>>2885007
It is not good to interpret anything written by a person as the rule of law. The Quran was written thousands of years ago and many of its laws are not applicable and abhorrent in a modern day context so being Muslim is not good. The Quran was written prior to the evolution of reason and rationality in 1700s, and many of its verses were written with the purpose of manipulating people into creating a system that would be peaceful but utterly authoritatian and close minded. Islam is based on tribalistic, violent, and puritanical systems. Islam is not good to follow because it is wrong, contradictory, and currently is very much scorned by lots of people so you will suffer personally for adhering to it. If you like traditionalism stick with Paganism. It is literally the ancient traditions of western civilization pre-Christianity, start studying it.

>>2891250
Why, all one and a half million of these people with their own language, cultural identity, and entrenched society are just illegal immigrants that got here from Bangladesh last Wednesday.

>>2891252
>wow I'm so civilized now
>I mean look at me!
>*shits and pisses the same way as any wild animal*
Just because humans got to the moon doesn't mean we're suddenly gods and everything before 1700 was wrong.

>>2888120
>You may have heard of the term 'Taqiyyah', which is a Shiite term. It defines as being able to lie and say whatever you want, in the name of your religion.
I was under the impression that it specifically means lying to prevent being killed.

why do people think a couple of arabs wiping their asses with their hands, and dying at the ripe old age of 43 had the mysteries of the universe figured out to the point that people thousands of years later should be living by their ideals?

>>2891302
63 not 43. Get it right.
Why would you assume those Arabs made everything up?
It was divine revelation. That's why everyone follows it.

Shi'i Islam isn't more "reliable", per se. Yes, their relationship with Ahl al-Bayt is much closer than your conventional Muslim populace. However, their theology is based on historicity - of which Shi'i claim to have the more "accurate version". The original split was political. The idea that they curse the Prophet's Companions, believe in twelve infallible imams, venerate Husayn and make pilgrimate to Karbala all all products of history and not the theology of itself.

I don't mean to discourage you. I know many converts who have become Shi'a and I welcome them to Islam nonetheless. Just don't be quick to jump to a side that claims to be more reliable, despite this reliability being the product of events that took place much later than the original split.

>>2885007
I don't understand what the fuck you're talking about. It sounds like you want to convert to literally any "tradition" so long as it's been the same "tradition" for a long time.

If so, that's the most retarded method to get an accurate understanding of the the world that I've ever heard.

>>2892005
Cool thanks. It was a provisional kind of claim. Based on the most cursory observation of the evidence. Obviously it was very superficial, but as someone being introduced to Islam I have to start somewhere, and the school of the Ahl al-Bayt seemed like a reasonably trustworthy source to learn about Islam. Getting to a Shi'a masjid is a bit inconvenient where I live so I'll probably end up doing the conversion at a Sunni masjid. I just want to emphasize, however, that I didn't mean to imply that "Shi'a good Sunni bad", it's just that I had to choose one or the other and one seemed slightly more reasonable.

Also from the Shi'a literature I've read I'd say their view of the split is a little different. They don't conceive it as being primarily political. That's a secondary and peripheral issue. The main point is the authority of the Imams to teach and interpret. Political power can be foregone without it constituting a major loss, but the authority to instruct and interpret is essential to the role of Imam.

>>2892416
Nah, you got to read Guenon to know what I'm taking about. Also my inference would be invalidated if the Quran didn't have a genuinely revalatiry character, which I obviously believe it to posses.

>>2892416
I mean, your criticism is valid though. Some people end up falling heavily in the perennialist side and either arbitraily pick a tradition just cuz or end up practicing a mish mash of different traditions. I'm trying to avoid those pitfalls.

>>2892423
revelatory* woops

Just thought I'd share this. Pallavicini is one of the original Traditionalists and followers of Guenon's philosophy. He's still heading a sufi order based out of Italy.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gUgz32po0j4

OP, what makes you interested in Islam over a religion like Judaism?

>>2892462
OT is not a reliable text. It's a heavily edited mish mash, filled with weird stories like God not being able to overcome iron chariots, and it doesn't have a reliable and documented transmission. And that's just my criticsm of the OT, let alone the Talmud and the halacha that Judaism is based on. Also "Jewish philosophy" prior to hasidism was mainly taken from Muslim/Sufi/Greek influences (Maimonides, Ibn Ezra, Ibn Paquda etc) and Kabbalah is 2spoopy4me. Islam is simple. One unique deity, one ultimate reality. Many prophets, Muhammed is the final one with the clearest message. Follow his example, submit to God's will as revealed in the Quran. That's as far as the exoteric aspects.

>>2892508
Kabbalah just has a lot of superstitious stuff surrounding it. I don't even know where to begin on that.

As far as Islam being based on Judaism. The fundamental premisnof Islam is simple: there is one Truth and many "prophets" have testified to it (every people without exception has had a prophet come to them at some point in their history not only semites). As for how accurately they have passed down those original teachings, Islam cannot vouch for them. In fact, all the evidence is against a reliable transmission of these teachings. So while Jews may have had some prophets in their history (they aren't the only ones), that doesn't mean they preserved the purity if the original teaching. The text itself is obviously highly corrupted and not trustworthy. Islam depends on the revelatory character of the Quran, a text which claims for itself the function of aiding believers in acquiring knowledge ("knowledge" being one of the most recurring words in the Quran) and distinguishing between true and false.

>>2892536
premise of*

>>2891252
>It is not good to interpret anything written by a person as the rule of law
That's why i will never accept liberalism and Secularism.

>>2891238
None of those are inherently Islamic. They're just common sense.

>>2885788
Proof? You also dont know what taqqiya is

>>2888104
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Page 150 of the full report pdf has the margins of error for each population surveyed. Stop talking shite.

>>2888050
Yes, for a *country*, retard. You can't then extrapolate the results for one country to fit all Muslims.

Why don't we poll what Israeli Christians believe about their nice Jewish neighbours and then extrapolate those results for all 2bn Christians worldwide?

>>2892496
>filled with weird stories like God not being able to overcome iron chariots
Unlike the completely normal stories of flying horses, haggling with god about how times a day to pray, and splitting the moon in two.

>>2893952
>margin of error=confidence interval/level

>>2894007
All the information is there if you bother to read it

>The table on page 150 shows the sample size and margin of sampling error for Muslim respondents in each country. For results based on the Muslim sample in the countries surveyed, one can say with 95% confidence that the error attributable to collecting data from some, rather than all, members of the Muslim population is plus or minus the margin of error. This means that in 95 out of 100 samples of the same size and type, the results obtained would vary by no more than plus or minus the margin of error for the country in question.

So to reiterate, stop talking shite.

>>2894029
Not the guy you were talking to, read >>2888144's wikipedia link

>>2886151
The hadith state that Aisha was taken to Muhammad’s house, as his bride, when she was 9 and she took her dolls with her as play toys. I’ll borrow some excerpts from Sam’s article here:

'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house AS A BRIDE WHEN SHE WAS NINE, AND HER DOLLS WERE WITH HER; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)

'A'isha reported that she used to PLAY WITH DOLLS in the presence of Allah's Messenger and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah's Messenger whereas Allah's Messenger sent them to her. (Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5981)

When the Apostle of Allah arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.

He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 4914)


A Muslim scholar says that it is okay for Aisha (and other children) to play with dolls because they are not considered adults:

Al-Khattaabee said: From this Hadeeth it is understood that playing with dolls (al-banaat) is not like the amusement from other images (suwar) concerning which the threat (wa'eed) of punishment is mentioned. The only reason why permission in this was given to 'Aa'isha (may Allah be pleased with her) is because SHE HAD NOT, AT THAT TIME, REACHED THE AGE OF PUBERTY.

>>2888141
You have to be fucking retarded to believe that the God of the Jews is the God of the Arabs.

>>2894111
READ>>2885126 especially the video

>>2892496
Bible obviously does not say that God could not defeat men with iron chariots.

Just like the battle of Ai, the leaders did not always consult God first, and in this case, likely did not consult him at all, but were afraid.

>>2893015
The father of lies, satan, the founder of islam, encourages his children to lie. Constantly.

>>2894118
Yes, all islamic writings are fallible, wrong, in error, lies, and garbage. What else would you expect for a religion of inbred illiterate retarded people?

I already know.

>>2894148
Hurray for post quality, fucktard

Aside from mutawater (the hadiths we need) hadiths which are authentic, hadiths are non-important,

think of them as the muslim equivalent early tales of jesus' life

Because it's not your tradition. You're selling out your tradition, which I assume is an enlightenment value protestant denomination, for a completely different thing.

I'm not being traditionalist if I, as a Swede, decide to adopt the Abo rite of eating my firstborn child.

>>2894265
I do. I think of all islamic writings as lies, garbage, misinformation, and vicious frauds upon humanity. Without exception.

>>2885007

>1. Traditionalism: I generally accept the arguments of the Traditionalist school as embodied in the writing of Rene Guenon. There is a "primordial tradition", a kind of pure metaphysics, of which all particular traditions are embodiments.

I haven't read Guenon, but I think the idea of a primordial tradition would imply that there exist universal truths which are expressed through the religions of the world. I would personally agree with that, I believe that there are truths to be found in the religions of the world about quesions which scientific inquiry can not answer. They can provide us an understanding on the deepest meaning of being.

But I do not understand how this defends the choice of you choosing one tradition in particular. If anything it urges you to use all the faculties which you possess to find this truth in all religious systems of the world. After all, that's how Guenon did it.

>>> continued

>>2894291
Protestantism and the Tradition that Guenon speaks have nothing to do with eachother, protestantism is unlegitimate.

>>2894297
Not an argument

>>>part 2

>2. Most of these traditions suffer from issues relating to faulty/unreliable transmission
>3. Islam is the most reliably transmitted tradition.

The Quran is probably a reliably transmitted tradition. But you make two mistakes.

First of all, and this is in line with my previous point. A tradition might be reliably transmitted, that does not say anything about the value of the tradition. I have not studied Guenon, but I have studied the Quran, together with the Old Testament, the New Testament, old Egyptian and Sumerian texts. And I have found very little deep values in the Quran. This might offend Muslims, but that is my experience. I find the text shallow, and I find its values shallow. It is a book of one man who commands you to let the fear of God lead your life. The more you read it, the more this became clear to me. It is not an inspired work, it is a work by one clever man on a mission.

Second, and I suspect Guenon would agree, a reliable tradition, set in stone, does not have to be a good thing. Think about it, how does primordial truths really come into being? I personally see it more as a Darwinian process, where generations upon generations have and fine tuned these stories and knowledge, about what life is about. They thought about how a man should act in a manner that is good for himself, but also, his family, his community, his nation and the cosmos. Things that didn't work were left out, half truths were refined, things that worked were kept. This is most prevalent in the Old Testament, a book, not of one revelation, but containing the stories of generations of people.

Do not believe that the true tradition simply came from the sky, and only needs to be protected.

You are putting the cart before the horse. You will only find what works for you by reading texts or experiencing rituals. Because you can not find the true tradition, by virtue of its pedigree.

>>2893981
The Quran is explicit about the fact that it employs similitude, the OT is a chronicle of events.

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>be 'traditionalist'
>follow the semitic, jewish cults of revolutionaries who hate all actual Tradition and want to purge it with their neurotic iconoclasm

I never understood this as a Traditionalist. Christian/Muslim "Traditionalists" are fuckin' retarded, man. YHWH is a Jewish egregore. If you're a European why wouldn't you look into the indigenous actual Tradition of your forefathers? Your ethnicity's paganism. That was the unbroken Tradition of thousands of years. Semitic Monotheism is a drop in the bucket and a proto-Bolshevism.

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>>2894317
"Unlegitimate" as opposed to Islam, which was invented by one guy. I'm not sure what your standards for illegitimacy is, but everything came from something else, including Islam. And everything changes. You will not be accepted by muslims if you follow the quran and nothing but the quran. You realize that, right? The minaret and the beards and the veiled women arn't a part of the original thing, it's a tradition that has sprung up over time, and is as unlegitimate as anything else. Should you attempt to follow the Quran to the letter, you would not be a muslim, not a shia or a sunni or a sufi or a shiite. You'd just be you. Every religion has its own peculiarities, and if you want the oldest unchanged line.. Be gnostic or something, it hasn't been tainted by human interference through thousand years of editing. Or yet better, be a Trypillian Bird Figure Cultist. Both options are, by your standards, closer to the perennial truth, since they're not tainted by actual tradition.

Or pagan. Or buddhist. Or yet better, cremate your deceased like the Lake Mungo men did. That's as perennial as you're gonna get.

>>2894350
Tradition comes from tradere which means "to pass down". There is no such thibg as pagan traditionalism since it was not passed down to the present day. Unless you want to claim you know a druid with a line of transmission back to the original druids.

>>2894350

Maybe if our paganism was a deep and strong a tradition as Indian paganism, it would have survived. But honestly it wasn't. Christianity initially spread by means of its message because there simply are issues addressed in the Old and New Testament which aren't in Western Paganism. Granted it also replaced Egyptian paganism which was a rich and deep tradition but well.

In any case the idea that traditionalism is about doing what your genetic forefathers did would make it pretty retarded. "Yeah that buddha guy has a point be he's a gook so he must be wrong". Come on.

>>2894302
Guenon adopted Islam, and according to people that knew him when he lived in Egypt he was scrupulous in his observance of the Sharia.

>>2894329
>A tradition might be reliably transmitted, that does not say anything about the value of the tradition.
Absolutely correct in my view. The valditity of the Islamic tradition depends on the revelatory character of the Quran. As for your first impressions of the Quran, it has been noted by many commentators that the Quran is a text which veils itself and even shows itself as "ugly" to some while showing its beauty to others. This is precisely my experience of reading the Quran. The first few times I tried to read it I couldn't even get passed the first chapter because of how incoherent I found it.

As for your Evolutionary theory of tradition, nothing could be further from the Guenonian conception. I do not know how the primordial tradition originated or whether there was such a tradition in the factual/historical sense. But the idea of the primordial tradition is very closely related to the idea of metaphysics and a level of insight into things that requires the use of highly specialized faculties.

>>2894329
>Do not believe that the true tradition simply came from the sky, and only needs to be protected.
If we're speaking figuratively, that's more or less what I believe.

>>2894425

Thanks for answering.

>If we're speaking figuratively, that's more or less what I believe.

Mahler said 'Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire.'

I firmly believe this. Which is why I have a similar view on certain forms of Protestantism, which remind me of Islam.

Anyway, isn't it unreasonable to think that God, the infinitely incomprehensible, came down to earth and wrote a booklet where he tells you how to get into heaven in five easy steps. Step 1, if you are rich, give money to the poor. 10% will do though, no reason to exaggerate.

It just doesn't work to me.

And doesn't the book go against traditionalist teaching? Because does it not say that they who do not follow Islam, or at least it's 'corrupted' off shoots like Judaism and Christianity, will be doomed forever? But the primordial tradition is supposed to be a truth to be found in other religions of the world. How can Islam then assert to be the only, final truth?

Just thinking aloud here.

>>2894425
>it has been noted by many commentators that the Quran is a text which veils itself and even shows itself as "ugly" to some while showing its beauty to others.

I suppose I belong to the former then, but it rather annoys me that because of that I will apparently burn for eternity.

In any case, no two human beings are exactly alike, and what works for one does not work for another. So best luck to you and your religious conversion.

I do hope you will keep an open mind to other religious texts. Or even texts you think you already know, but may reveal their value from another perspective.

>>2894485
>but it rather annoys me that because of that I will apparently burn for eternity.
Not the gut you were talking but that's not the case
Here's the thing about islamic hell/heaven is that it's different than christianity or judaism or etc etc

"kuffar" go to hell in islamic doctrine, but who are kuffar?

kuffar doesn't mean anyone who isn't a muslim, for example, let's say an american woman who never heard of islam or only has a very basic surface knowledge about it, does she count as a kafir? nope

"kuffar" is someone that thoroughly knows islam but chose not to convert (codeword: thoroughly)

and the non muslims who aren't kuffar get judged for their deeds

TLDR in islam not all non-muslims go to hell

>>2894324
A complete denunciation, yes. You know what isn't an argument?

"The quran is a holy book."

>>2894499
>He makes a statement and doesn't back it up with facts
nice double dubs tho

>>2894498
>TLDR in islam not all non-muslims go to hell

In the real world, all muslims go to hell.

>>2894473
The "preservation of the fire" is a crucial aspect. It has to be a living fire passed down and preserved over the ages, or reintroduced into the world via genuine revelation.

Revelations take on a tangible form that is suited to the people and the time (in the case of the Quran, suited to the final age in which we are dwelling). It depends on the nature of the receptacle as well as on God. Hence the dkfferent character of revelations from different periods and places. I find that the character of the Islamic tradition is highly congenial to me conpres to others which I've studied and tried out.

As for who is doomed and who isn't we can't know. In Islam it is not as black and white as the catholic extra ecclesiam non sallus. It is based on good deeds, acknowledgement of God's unity (the singulr nature of Truth), and other factors such as how culpable a person is for his actions (enviromental factors have to be taken into account). Bottom line we just don't know.

>>2892423
What's revelatory about it? Every line in that book is clearly designed by a man to control other men.
Abrogation? Are you kidding me? That's Joseph Smith tier bullshit. That's not being able to keep track of your own bullshit so you make up an idea that "Everything I say now supersedes what I said before."
How the fuck is the not obvious nonsense?

>>2894485
Not only can I promise you that I will keep an open mind to other texts/traditions, but I can promise you that I will engage with them and learn about them all my life.

>>2894498
Yeah and it's important to note thy unlike English, Arabic is a HIGHLY equivocal language. Words like kufr have many explanations and connotations.

>>2894498

I'm probably Kuffar because I really did put some time in reading the Quran.

Worst of all, I did it with good intentions. I though, this will give me a better understanding of my Muslim fellow citizens.

Well, fuck me I guess.

>>2894505
>off topic shitpost
good post

>>2894528
that unlike*

>>2894530
Nah, don't believe in that kind of crude interpretation of damnation/salvation. Just realize that your sojourn here on earth is temporary and it's very inportant how you spend your time.

>>2894519
So have you ever spoken with an actual authority on Islam (naturally, who is a Muslim himself) on what abrogation is or are you basing your understanding on youtube videos?

>>2894531
Every once in a while it's good to interject some truth into this Islamic circle-jerk.

>>2894548
What's the point? They'll just retreat behind "lol you're not a native arabic speaker, you just can't understand it".

Proving Islam is only for native Arabic speakers, by the way.

There's no salvation in Islam; you could be the best person in the world, die, stand before allah who's in a shit mood, and get cast into hell.

The only way inbred retarded muslims think they can get into paradise for sure is to die in jihad.

Hence 1400 years of jihad, and billions of very confused and pissed off muslims in the afterlife.

>>2894542
>it's very inportant how you spend your time.

Whoever keeps their life shall lose it; whoever loses their life for Jesus' sake shall find it.

>>2894564
ok then

>>2894140
No proof. So you are just a confused zealot. I pity you I truly do

>>2894560
Its a legit discussion. You are just injecting your zealous butthurt.

>>2894571
Is Mohammad proof?

"His [Muhammad's friend's] father said to me, "I am afraid that this child has had a stroke, so take him back to his family before the result appears. ..... She [Muhammad's mother] asked me what happened and gave me no peace until I told her. When she asked if I feared a demon had possessed him, I replied that I did."
>"The Life of Muhammad", by A. Guillaume, Oxford University Press.

Even in the Quran, there are references that people believed that Muhammad was possessed or influenced by demons.

Sura 81:22-25 says, "No, your compatriot [Muhammad] is not mad. He saw him [Gabriel] on the clear horizon. He does not grudge the secrets of the unseen, nor is this the utterance of an accursed devil."

Sura 69:41, 42 say, "It [the Quran] is no poet's speech: scant is your faith! It is no soothsayer's divination: how little you reflect! It is revelation from the Lord of the Universe.

From his youth, some people close to him thought he was demon possessed. Later in life, Muhammad's encounter with a spirit, the so-called "Gabriel", deeply disturbs him, and he thinks he is demon possessed. He becomes very depressed, filled with fear, and attempts suicide. But he is stopped only when this spirit appears and says he is an apostle. Later, when these visitations become infrequent, he again goes and tries to commit suicide. Each time the spirit intervenes. As time went on people continued to think Muhammad was demon inspired.

>>2894571
No proof?

Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

Mohammad is accursed.

According to God.

>>2894594
People talking about teletubbies is also a legit discussion then.

>>2894615
this is some advanced shitposting, are you an aussie, baptist, and a /pol/tard?

>>2894610
You know that I could just pull up a Sure stating that the Quran is the last revelation to mankind and Mohammed is the last phrophet? Just stating a fucking holy book isnt an argument. There is no proof behind it its just a statement.

>>2894615
Well there are a lot of Christian discussions too so...

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>>2894610

>"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

*innovates religion*

>>2894605
Do you think Jesus would have appeared mentally stable to the people first seeing him? A guy who babbles something about him being god and his son simultaneosly and about some holy sacrifice and lets himself get crucified?

>>2894659
Don't kid youself, though. It's not as though Christian theology is anymore coherent today than it was then. Also let's be careful in attributing such beliefs to Jesus without a reliable source to back it up.

Are you going to go the whole way on the prohibitions of certain foods and activities, go on the pilgrimage, and pray 5 times a day stopping everything you're doing? I've looked at islam lightly before, and I essentially agree with its theology concerning Gd.

>>2894713
Yes, I intend to try to the best of my capacity.

>>2894638
Why don't you pull up the sura saying that the bible is the inerrant and perfect Word of God?

Did they teach you that one in bomb making school?

>>2894656
The New Covenant does not change, alter, or have anything to do with the Old, and has nothing to do with taking land in Israel.

"Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I am teaching you to perform, so that you may live and go in and take possession of the land which the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Here's the real admonition against Islam, in the bible:

Revelation 22
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

>>2894659
How mentally stable are you?

Guy says He's the Son of God, and feeds 10,000 people with one kid's lunch, a few loaves and fish.

Could you watch that and say "nah, he's nothing special"?

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>>2885179
>https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/01/what-is-the-koran/304024/
>follow that link
>see pic related advertisement
i have no face for this

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>>2895222
no wait i do gave a face for this occasion

>>2894473
>Step 1, if you are rich, give money to the poor. 10% will do though, no reason to exaggerate.
Why do you have to bring this particular one as an example though?

>>2895222
lol im not even /pol/ but even the placement of the ad just under the part where it says "your struggle is futile goyim, just give up" is too much of a (((coincidence))) for me

i mean it probably is atleast partly accidental, but still really funny

>>2895287
he's probably implying that it's arbitrary, i.e. why 10% and not 11%, and why would God condescend to give such precise and banal/trivial details on managing our affairs

i dont agree with that, just trying to gauge what that poster means

>>2894473
>It just doesn't work to me.

Neither was it given to you.

>>2895297
Because He was making His rules for His country populated by His people during His rule as their king.

Has nothing whatsoever to do with you.

12 tribes. 11 got land. The priest tribe got zero land. As all wealth derives from the land, the priest tribe would be poverty stricken and unable to do their jobs as priests, judges, hospices, orphanages, etc.

So the 11 tribes had to kick in 10% of what the land yielded to them that year. Harvest 1000 bushels of wheat, give 100 to the Levites. Cattle goes from 1000 to 2000, give 100 cows to the Levites.

In such a manner the temple could be run, maintained; the courts could be staffed, run, maintained; and the charity work of the Levites could be carried out.

Note the 10% is only what the land produces; if you work as a lawyer for $100,000 that year, your tithe is zero.

And under God's rule, the land produced abundantly.

So stop taking what was meant for one people in one time under very certain circumstances and thinking it has something to do with you. It does not. You could not enter into the Old Covenant even if you wanted to.

>>2895316
What do the 12 tribes have to do with anything? Aren't we talking about zakat tax?

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>>2885056

So far, in the age of cell phone cameras, no one has filmed a holy miracle. I suppose you can say victory of the religion could be seen as a way, but so far Chinese seem to be winning.

>>2895338
If there was a miracle people would just be like
>muh paranorma phenomena
>muh sekrit government technology
>muh ayy lmaos

>>2895316

Pretty sure he could convert to Judaism if he wanted to.

>>2895347
paranormal*

>>2895337
God.....10%.....

zakat tax is about satanic islam, and nothing to do with God.

>>2895348
Don't need to convert actualy, I already am one.

>>2895338
Yes, the 150,000,000 Chinese Christians are winning indeed.

>>2895356
Why is autism so endemic with Christian posters?

>>2895358

Chinese are mostly atheist that was my point.

>>2885103
You should perhaps to talk an actual shia muslim instead of repeating may mays

>>2885256
this fucking mongoloid.

Damn man learn to think critically.

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>>2893965
? But they did poll countries and extrapolate only to that.
Did you actually read the study or are you talking out of your ass?

>>2897047
shut up about the polls already you autists, it's way off topic

>>2885888
Trips for a shitpost

>>2885795
>Living in muslim rule used to be a privilege and people had to pay for it unless they were muslims.

So basically people had to pay for the privilege of staying in their homeland after a foreign occupation. How friendly.

>>2897065
When people stop being wrong I'll stop

>>2885007
Islam is newer than Christianity, most traditionalists considered Christianity a degenerate jew religion, checkmate camel fucker

>>2885844
>How can a religion be true if people leave it on a whim?
There is no correlation between the existance of a "true thing" and people's belief in it. People are in fact gullible and base their understanding of the world on what they already percieve as true. As such they are liable to change their mind regardless of the actual facts.The fact that a person stops believing in a "true thing" have absolutely no relevance to the truth of that thing.
Killing people for apostaphy is thus seen as a lame attempt to hinder people from coming to their own conclusions which reflects poorly on thw religion, i.e it makes the religion seems less plausible as it evidently need to force people into staying with it.

>>2894785
Thats exactly what the author wants you to believe. You have no proof of Jesus actually doing that. Its just stated and supposed to be believed in blindly.

>>2894785
Were you there?

>>2894117
They're both omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and enjoy dicking with everyone.

>>2885871
>Big empires can't be sustained on random killing and fear.
Not on random killings perhaps but targeted killings and fear are two of the historic main staples of maintaining an empire.

>>2885910
If Allah was on both sides wouldn't he make the conflicts short but decisive?

>>2895412
Most of them are budhists though.

>>2885007
>on the verge of converting
what do you think your ancestors would think about you retard converting to the enemie's religion?

>>2899089
I don't need to speculate about ancestors since I have living relatives, and I can say with certainty that they would totally and vehemently reject my choice.

>>2899089
>WE WUZ VIKANGZ N SHIET
>WE WUZ CRUSADERS N SHIIIEEEET

>>2892417
You don't need the guidance of these twelve imams. There's already a rich tradition of ijma (consensus) that has made the five largest Islamic madhabs practically uniform in belief, with the exception of the Jafari Shi'i madhab believing in the Imamah as a core concept.

I'm not denying the piety or righteousness of the eleven imams (the twelfth is apparently in occultation somewhere in Iran). However, as I mentioned in my previous post, their importance in Shi'i theology is a product of history, not actual Islamic tenets. Otherwise there would be explicit Qur'anic verses exemplifying their importance and you can't even find tafsiri (exegetical) justifications for them outside of Shi'i interpretations (even then there are succession disputes - see Zaydis and Ismailis). They are only alluded to conspicuously in verses about the Ahl al-Bayt that Shi'a claim refers to them because the imams are conveniently Muhammad's direct descendants. On top of these beliefs, there are questionable characteristics like the imams having infallibility on a level similar to the prophets or having near perfect knowledge of Islam despite some of the imams receiving their succession as children. Your main focus should be the Quran, Sunnah and early Islamic sources (the first three generations of Muslims) and then with your way from there. Alternatively you can start from a more contemporary lens and go backwards. I'd suggest Islam in the Medieval Era. It's particularly rich in historical context outside of the perfect generation of Muslims AKA the Salaf. Whatever you conclude from this, I will respect regardless.

All this said, I still welcome you to Islam if you truly wish you join. It's the best decision you will ever make.

>>2885103
Not true. You second point is an outright invention and your first point shows your ignorance. Do you have some sort of agenda faking facts?

>>2901764
You're probably right. I've emailed a bunch of masjids in my area, both Sunni and Shi'a. I'll probably go with the Sunni cause they're closer to me, but so far no one has responded. Feels bad man. Do Muslims fast from emails during the Ramadan too or something, it's been a week since I emailed the first one.

>>2901779
Kek. Just visit them in person during prayer time and stick around after. They'll gloat over you, trust me and it's a really nice experience once you've taken your shahada.

>>2901798
I'm nervous af showing up at a mosque, never been in one before. But thanks for the encouragement. Can you recommend any introductory level books on the four madhabs and fiqh?

>>2901807
My suggestion is to start reading about Islam from a macro level, or from the outside looking in, where the difference of madhabs isn't relevant. These differences are already very minor and you'll likely never notice them unless there's a very specific issue (i.e. the issue of hunting dogs). The Cambridge Companion to Classical Islamic Theology by Timothy Winter AKA Abdul Hakim Murad is probably the closest entry level book you'll find discussing the four schools that isn't completely divorced from having legitimate Islamic sources. Memoirs are also good, like The Road to Mecca by Muhammad Asad who was a European Jew who converted to Islam. For hadiths, look at Jonathan C. Brown's Misquoting Muhammad, it's very, very solid and an easy read.

>>2901807
On top of >>2901834, if it's your first time, visit a mosque between Dhuhr and Asr, or Asr and Maghrib, specifically during Ramadan. The latter is a better option because the mosque administration is likely to be there and you can arrange whatever discussions you want with them, be it private or public conversion, questions, etc. I know some converts who have converted by themselves, but doing it as a mosque is a good experience, or even just going in general and observing events and prayers. Alternatively the best time go is on a Friday for the khutbahs (sermons).

>>2901840
Thanks, man. Maybe I'll go tomorrow. I feel ready. I feel like a Muslim already, it's only a matter of going through with the official formalities of conversion at this point. You a convert? What's your story?

Do not convert from Judaism to Islam that's just futile

>>2901853
Not a convert. Lifelong Muslim, but recently have been taking my religion seriously in the last five to six years. I'm past that stage where "everything is just a ritual". I've spoken to many converts and while they have all their own reasons, just remember it's okay to have doubt. And it's definitely okay to be critical of your beliefs. You might not ever be fully satisfied with the who/what/when/where's but just remember the "why" factor is essentially the journey itself.

>>2901764
I don't understand your reasoning behind your logic. You said that you don't deny the piety or righteousness of the eleven Imams.

In that case, during the conflict between Hussain and Yazid, you should immediately understand the sacrifice Hussain had to make to protect Islam against unfit leaders such as Yazid, because in your case, how can a pious and righteous person go up against the caliph of the Muslims?

In my personal belief, I think it is more than necessary to follow and learn from these Imams because we can see from their actions that they were not only teaching Islam but were examplifying the teachings of the Prophet through their actions.

In my experience, it is through the teachings from these Imams that allowed to me truly understand the Oness of God and become closer to understanding the perfect character that is the l>>2901953
ast Prophet of God.

I apologize if I sound like I'm going on a tangent, it's 3 AM here and I just felt like I needed to say something. This thread was really insightful to read, lots of helpful people inputting their own custructive comments. Looking forward to learning more.

>>2901953
OP here, thanks again. I'll post in thread tomorrow if I end up going.

>>2901971
So are you a convert?

>>2902009
I'm not a convert, but I felt believing in a religion just because your parents say so is meaningless, and thus set out on a life long journey to understand Islam.

>>2901971
I don't deny their piety and righteousness as Muslims. What I do deny is the belief that they were divinely inspired prophetically appointed heir apparents to a leadership that has many questionable origins and beliefs. I also find it extremely contentious that the concept did not exist with the original Shi'a when the first split took place before the Second Fitna. Islam was completed before Muhammad passed away, so why is Imamah a core concept? Especially one that during the 23 years in which he was revealed the Qur'an to. As for the teachings, I'm sure you have found extremely valuable information and insights from them. None of these concepts take away from Muhammad's character what scholars have been writing for centuries. Although, I'll probably agree as I have before that the Shi'a spend more time discussing the affairs on the Ahl al-Bayt, so I'll give that to you.

As for the Second Fitna itself, you do know that the political Shi'i in Kufa betrated Husayn, right? They wanted his help and when he journeyed, they turned their backs on him. They left him to die as a martyr and were the same people who instigated clout between Ali and Muawiyah. And the Kufans were a large part of the original political Shi'i movement. Muslim bin Aqeel even cursed them because they let him die because of their treachery. None of this absolves Yazid from handling it the way he did. But again, this event doesn't matter to me outside of historicity - because it doesn't affect the theological grounds of my religion. There is nothing from the outcome of that event that changed any precepts of my faith. But I find it very convenient that it has led to the very specific emotionally charged aspects of Shi'i tenets like Ashura. Or how Karbala is now essentially a site of pilgrimage, where certain Shi'i scholars even argue that it is more valuable than Hajj.

It's okay to hold these beliefs. But you have to ask yourself what they change to an already completed religion.

>>2885007
You've written this post articulately, and with a tone of studied intellectual authority...Yet the gist of it is that you're choosing to believe something is true because you want to.

You're a fucking idiot and your cowardly, willing suspension of disbelief in order to comfort yourself emotionally is holding back the human race.

>>2901768
Are you telling me shias don't venerate saints like muh ali muh zainab muh hussain ?

Bumping because this is an interesting thread in the sea of uninteresting "What if" and "Leave x to me" threads.

If you're European then traditionalism should lead you to Christianity, not Islam.

>>2901953

>it's okay to have doubt
>it's okay to be critical

Not according to the Koran. If your Muslim brothers found out, they would not look upon you kindly.

>>2902888
>let me teach you about your own religion

>>2902927

>implying this invalidates what I said

He clearly knows nothing about it. Doubt is not acceptable to Allah, and criticising his word is punishable by death.

>>2902929
What pisses me off is not your infinite retardation, but your arrogance despite that you're wrong
next time you read something on /pol/ or thereligionofpeace go fact check it before spouting what you've read

First thing, yes it's okay to have doubt, nowhere in the quran god has punished somebody because his faith was weakened, quite the opposite; god states multiple times that he always tries to strengthen the hearts of believers

Second thing, there's no such thing as "punishable by death", the quran states that "let there be no compulsion in religion", nobody punishes sinners except god.

>>2902945
>Second thing, there's no such thing as "punishable by death",

>Leave Islam in a Muslim country
>Get executed

What did he mean by this?

>>2902957
not the guy you're talking to but
>Leave Islam in a Muslim country
>Get executed
are you living in the timeline where ISIS successfully invaded all muslim countries or something?

none of the muslim countries aside from saudi arabia and iran (theocratic shitholes) have apostasy or literally any religion-related laws

here in tunisia there are some people who protest against islam but nothing happens to them because they're protected by free speech, Same thing in algeria, morocco, egypt, lebanon, turkey,jordan and the rest of the gulf and asian countries

TLDR like the other guy said go fact check what you read and stop ruining board quality.

>>2902549
>Yet the gist of it is that you're choosing to believe something is true because you want to.
You're gonna have to explain your reasoning here, because I don't see it. Remember, this thread is about "critical assessment".

>>2902880
Merely because of cultural proximity? There are many factors to take into account, and Christianity doesn't hold up to scrutiny.